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Into the wild, I'm going into the wild, I am. It's been a wild freedom challenge since I left my roots back home. Into the wild I'm good. Into the wild I hid. It's been a while, freedom child, since I left my roots back home.
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Welcome to the Free Birth Society podcast. This is a radical space for women who are ready to celebrate their autonomous choices in birth, motherhood, and beyond. Together, we'll learn about wild birth through personal narrative, we'll explore the politics of birth, and we'll analyze everything that relates to our lives as women from a feminist perspective. Here's your host, Emilee Saldaya.
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It's been a wild freedom change. Since I left my rules back home.
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I'm thrilled to be bringing you a conversation I had with the wise and inspiring Kedist Ashae. Kittist is a radical birth keeper in the Chicago area who shares her journey of transitioning from the heroic doula to now the authentic midwife in her community. We talk about how to practice a full body yes, the no diet, and her epic work in the world. Alright, Goodest. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored to be here. Excited to chat with you. So tell us a little bit about who you are, where you live, and and what this journey of birth work, you know, has looked like. Yeah. So I live in Chicago currently, but I was born and grew up in Portland, Oregon. So that's that's really home for me. And I've always been very drawn to birth. I was in the room when my brother was born, when I was four. Oh. And it was a hospital birth. My mom is from Ethiopia and, comes from a lineage of medicine women and midwives, you know, came to this country and there was a lot of fear and it was really indicative of, like, how fast we can forget our our innate power. Mhmm. You know, because midwifery and free birth was was obviously her, lineage and and yet, you know, being here just so much fear around around birth. And she, you know, has a very strong intuition and was really like pushing off the doctors and doing it, you know, as best as she could, without a lot of medical intervention despite being in the hospital. But I remember so clearly being four and having other women, I think her friends in the room who are really nervous and kind of jittery. And I was just, like, going around saying, don't worry. It's normal.
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Shut up.
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Don't worry. It's normal. And then who who is this? Who is this child?
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Oh my god.
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The only way I can explain it is that is my grandmother. My great grandma is just, like, in me. So sweet. Yeah. So I always loved birth and I always felt like, yep, this is what we do. And, you know, as I got older into my teens, I started really digging into, just the racial disparities that I saw in my own community, and how black women, black families, were getting treated just by the medical system and what that meant for families. And so I always thought I know I was gonna study policy. Well, I did study policy. I always thought that one day, like, when I was retired, I would be, like, a, you know, really traditional midwife and be in the countryside and it'd be great. But my partner at the time when I was in college was like, okay. You're watching birth videos every night till three AM. You better just do it now because you can't wait. And I was like, you're right. Or retire really young. That's really the move. Yes. Really what I did. So I I took a doula training and How old are you at this point? I was nineteen Okay. I believe. Nice. Eighteen. Eighteen, nineteen. And Still in Oregon or have you come to Chicago? That was in Oregon. Mhmm. And, you know, enjoyed the training a lot, and I did sort of I was working with different communities. So I went to a training that was, you know, one of the big organizations, fairly, you know, predominantly white in its organizational leadership and the people attending. And then I also had people in my community in Portland who were, black women who were in midwifery or who were doing birth work. And so I kind of simultaneously got a couple different lenses which were similar in some ways, but I was really struck by this idea of, like, scope of practice. And when I went to I don't know if I'm allowed to say this. It was a donut training. Oh, yeah. That's the one I did. Okay. Incredibly. Right. When I went to my donor training, there was so much around, like, scope of practice. Yeah. And particularly, like, we have there's a panel, and all these people were like, well, I would never cook for a client. Oh my gosh. Like, I would never get in a in a car with my client because that's a liability. And I would never and I'm like, well, then what do you do? Yeah. You just stand there. You just stand there. Well, then, so we were just recently talking about this in the school around scope of practice that that's basically, a a, you know, a a what's the word? Like a scapegoat term for ways in which we disconnect from women. Mhmm. Right? Like ways in which we don't show up. Ways in which we don't provide actual human to human care. And it's fear based. It's totally fear based. Of course. You know, and and I was kind of joking with friends because with at least within the black community, it's like if you're even a doula, like even a pretty mainstream doula, you're like a community health worker. So you're like going to doctor visits and, you know, cooking food and take driving it's like, what do you mean scope of practice? Oh, so you're saying that you noticed a distinction in the white in the predominantly white, like, donut kind of mainstream communities around these these ways of disconnection essentially Yeah. Versus in the black community in the birth world that were that's absurd. Right. Even a a step before this, like, idea of scope of practice beyond the medical system. Like, woah. Even, you know, backing it up just, like, even within what was considered pretty mainstream, I noticed this difference. And so I was like, okay. What do I do with that? How do I make this work for me? And started attending births. And I think where I got kind where it became seductive, this, like, medical birth model, and the work that I really had to do was around my own, ego and identity around, like, being responsible and being a helper. Like, that was very much part of my identity from childhood, like, I am responsible. I know things. I will help. Right? That was, like, my survival piece. And so I think this idea around being really knowledgeable about all the medical interventions and, you know, I shadowed at a hospital because in Portland they have doulas on staff at some of the hospitals, which is pretty unusual. Right? And so it was like working in this on call system at a hospital where I was like, OBs would, like, talk to the doulas and be like, well, what about this and what about that? And it became sort of seductive, but it there was always a piece that was like, this doesn't quite feel right. But I did that for a number of years, until I I just I started not being able to cope with what I was seeing. Mhmm. And I think that breaking point happened, unfortunately, for me, it had to happen over and over again before it was like that's the last straw. You know? I think it started when I saw my first unconsented episiotomy. Mhmm. And I called my mentor and was like, what just happened? But also, there's no such thing as a consenting You're good. Episiotomy. Let me just Totally. Say that real quick. Yeah. But I an episiotomy that also had no, like, no words, you know, like, nothing nothing at all was said. And the way that it got framed by my mentor was just we I remember the conversation being around, like, well, if she doesn't seem traumatized, like, don't put your trauma on her. Right? Mhmm. And that just I was like, what the fuck? Like, what what do you mean? And so I ended up just holding so much. This is rape culture. It's exactly. Exactly. And I think it was I don't know if it was you or a guest that you had who said, you know, it's it really is. It's like knowing that your friend is dating someone who is abusive. And when I heard that I was like, oh, it's exactly what it's like. And going back there and going back there and going back there. So, I was like, well, okay. I'm I'm really gonna focus on home births. And in Oregon, you know, there's, like, a midwife on every corner and, you know, home birth is is is much more normalized than it is. Home birth with midwives is much more normalized than it is here in Chicago. And so I attended a lot of home births. Some were lovely. Some were just as messed up as the hospital births, but saw a couple birds where the midwife either didn't make it at all or, you know, made it at the very last minute. And it was like, well, what was the point again? And I think that's when I really was like, what is this thing that could happen if no one was here? Without any, yeah, without any disruption. Mhmm. And So how many years have gone by now at this point in the story of you attending birth? About two? Three. So not not too long. But you, like, you hit it, like, hard. Like, it sounds like you Yeah. I was really going. A lot of births. Yeah. While having a full time job, and then eventually I left out with the stupid Woah. Yeah. I was hard. Elementary school. So I would there were days where I would teach all day, go to a birth all night, and then turn around and and go back and teach six year olds all day. And I was like, okay. Actually, I don't think that's gonna work. Totally nuts. It's totally nuts. So and and that was part of the culture too. And I don't know for you, but it was like, how many births can you do? You know? Like, I take four or five births a month, and it didn't feel right. And I also I never subscribed to the what I saw as sort of the typical model of, like, you do two prenatals, you go to the birth, you do one postpartum. I was like, that's bullshit. Like, I can't do that. It just felt so, the the professionalism and the this wall, right, was just so strong. And so I was seeing people throughout their whole pregnancy Duh. And just doing way too, like, way more than I could sustain. Mhmm. Yeah. I think it got to the point. So fast forward, maybe another couple years, I was doing I hadn't aligned yet with free birth. I hadn't really seen free birth talked about yet, but was like, yeah. It would be nice if the midwife just didn't show. Like, it always kind of crossed my fingers, like, maybe it just happened. And I was still attending hospital births, and I would just come back sobbing where I would there is always a point during a birth where I would go to the bathroom. I'd leave the hospital room, go to the bathroom, and just Yeah. Want to scream. And I would come home, and my partner, my wife now would be like, yeah. You did that at the last birth. Right? Like, I needed it to be reflected. And it's like, you're right. Like, it's no more. No more. And so But but getting outside of that hero Yeah. You know, like, I mean, I remember and so many duels are still at this at this place when I talk to them, but I really remember for a couple of years kind of still falling for or being committed to the, like, but someone should be with them. Like, at least I can hold their story and help them process, and at least I could, you know, maybe stop something. You know, at least I know the system and just this real heroic fake guardian that was, like, completely ineffective, basically. Yeah. Sadly. Yeah. It's totally ineffective. And, you know, especially because the reason that I got into this work was especially to serve, particularly black women and families in in my community. There was this I think I had talked to another doula about, like, you know, I think I'm at least just gonna brand myself as a home birth doula. And the conversation was like, so you're just gonna are you gonna abandon? Like, what about all the the black people, like, in hospitals who are being abused by the medical system? Like, there is just so much wrapped up in that Totally. It's in the middle. Then become a lawyer. I mean, a doula is is not Bottom of the totem pole. Yeah. It's not the role for that specific, very real, very horrific problem. A doula is like it's like nothing. Like, it's a little bit of education, but does it change anything? It's again, it's like ineffective. And it felt like lying. It felt like at some point I was lying to people. Yeah. Because even when I tried that thing for a while where it's like, okay, we're just gonna, you know, labor at home until the baby's coming out. Right? That whole thing. And I was still seeing people show up to the hospital at ten centimeters and have cesareans and have their babies ripped from them, have traumatic postpartum. So what was the point of that? Right? Right. Shaving off twenty percent of the abuse to just have the other eighty. Yeah. Yeah. And so it really felt like, you know, people were were coming to me and I was getting slowly more and more bold about, like, this is what you're gonna experience. This is what you're gonna expect. But it wasn't my sharing that wasn't meaning that they weren't going to experience it. Right? Especially being like I'll still go with you. Like, that was my big turning point where I was I was I I so relate to your story and being like, okay, I'm just gonna tell the truth, and I'm just gonna, you know, say what I see. But what was it flagging to the client to be like, but I'll still totally be there? And when when I started saying, and I won't be there because of this abuse, that was when I saw, like, a whole next level of impact. Yeah. And that's it was when I was in this transitional time, you know, started to hear about free birth, and I was in a a Facebook group of, like it was, like, black families unassisted birth or something like that. And starting this I seed got planted. I started telling clients because I worked for people with people for so long. I would say, like, I'm just letting you know you're midway through your pregnancy and you're planning a hospital birth. I'm letting you know that I will support you through this pregnancy, but I have I have aligned with birthing outside the system now, and this is why. And while I will, like, maintain my commitment that I made to you, like, I'm not doing this anymore, And a lot of my clients switched to free birthing. And I was like, what? And I didn't expect that. You know? I was so fearful. People were like, that sounds amazing. I was like, it does? Right? People that you never would have thought, you know, that would have resonated, but it was like, you could see them just breathe for the first time. Like, I didn't know that that was possible. I could actually say no to all of this that's, you know, that's harming me. And so when I realized that, I was like, oh, it is possible. It is possible. And you're literally providing another path, which, you know, the classic, quote, you know, if you don't know your options, you don't have any. And this this is an example of that. You know, these women don't have options, and then you come along and say, well, I'm actually setting a boundary, and here's the path that I now support. You just gifted this woman options that she didn't see before. It's so beautiful. Yeah. It was a beautiful it was a beautiful realization and process to be with people as we were making that that journey. The part where it got sticky, and this is where I think, you know, I had heard stories about people aligning with free birth, and then it was like, and then you, like, ride off into the free birth sunset, and it's great. What story is that? It just seemed like I aligned with free birth, and then it will it will be peaceful. And what I found to be really telling and, like, the next piece of my work was that just because someone says they want a free birth doesn't mean that you're necessarily aligned to be working with them. And so I think what has been so huge to my work is this idea of, like, being able to coregulate with with, like, moms. And, like, how do you get in alignment with where they are? Like, how do you how do you be on that same wavelength? And what that looked like was I was working with clients who'd be like, yeah, I want a free birth, but, like, I'm not telling my mom and I live in my mother's house. Right? Or like, yeah, I want Red flag. Red flag. Or like, yeah, I want a free birth, but, you know, like, no one I no one in my family is supportive and I'm just gonna be like, I'm just gonna leave that where it is. Right? And then it would be messy, messy, messy. And I had moments where there were times where I because I wasn't co regulated, because I wasn't in full trust of them, like, of the birthing woman, like, I wasn't fully trusting of them because I could feel them wavering in their own boundaries Mhmm. That I expressed, you know, like curiosity or concern and didn't feel like, like it was going to impact them negatively potentially if they weren't already in their full sovereignty. As opposed to, like, when I'm working someone who has a really aligned with Reaper, it's like we're both in our power, and then it's like magic. Right? So I think that piece around just like co the importance of co regulating and, like, being in being in alignment in that way is so is so important. And so what that's meant for me in terms of work that's in my integrity is because I really thought, like, what does this look like, especially as I'm thinking about addressing, you know, racial disparities in the way that, you know, black women and and families are treated in the medical system and in the birth industry. And so I started doing the more educational, like, coaching pieces to folks, but was only showing up and attending births with people who I was like, yes, like, I trust. Yeah. That's legit. And and it seems normal, like, yeah, duh, that's what you do. But it's so not the doula model. Right? It's so not Well, and you've been a hero your whole life. So you're to set to set boundaries, which are obviously in integrity, but that's a huge huge huge lifelong, like, learning curve of how to be in boundaries, in integrity, and show up completely. Like, that's a that's a complicated puzzle to figure out, I think, in the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. And this idea that I never bought into but was so pervasive around, like, neutrality using air quotes. Right? Like, doesn't exist, but, you know, within the doula culture of, like, the doula for everyone or whatever. Well, it's it's literally like show up neutral, have no bias, and save everyone. Yep. Like at the same time somehow. And you're powerless, but also take all of our workshops and all of our trainings, you know, like all at the same time. Pretty much. Pretty much. Both. Untangling that, and I'm grateful that Yeah. You know, I I I haven't been I haven't been doing this for for that. It's not like I was doing it for ten years before I got to this point. Like, it it took a few years to get there, but I'm I'm grateful for, you know, having community and and folks to look to who who are doing this work and and for the podcast and, you know, all these all these other resources to to get me there a little bit sooner. Seriously. Yeah. But the and the interesting thing too is that as I was working with folks in pregnancy, what really came through was pregnancy is a really hard time to make a complete, like, belief system shift. Possible, like, people do it every day and it's incredible. But it's such a vulnerable and open time to go from I've been planning, you know, I've been you know, hospital birth is my only my only option my whole life or even, you know, medicalized birth in any way. And then to make that shift is so challenging. And so that's when I was like, okay. I also think we need to go back further before before pregnancy, before before birth. And in those shifts, like, when I see women make those shifts in pregnancy, it's almost always because they had to get really, really uncomfortable first, you know, for the shift. You know? And and really that's true across the board with shifts. Like, shifts typically happen out of getting really uncomfortable and where it's like, I have to do something different. So you see a lot of women at the end of their pregnancy, you know, getting bullied into a bunch of stuff and then finally being like, fuck it. I'm staying home. You know? But that first but I totally hear you. It's a totally different consciousness. It's so much to untangle, and many pregnant women are just kind of in a state of survival trying to learn the new language and and deal with their pregnancy symptoms alone. Right? Like it's it's Yeah. I hear you. You gotta start way before, ideally. It's just gonna be easier if you've started before. Right. And I was like, how could this process be a little more useful? And then I thought about at the time, I was also doing a lot of work around fertility and reproductive health and did a two year clinical herbal program. So I was kinda thinking about these worlds that were emerging and was dealing with my own, like, journey with my own physical and and spiritual womb health. And I was like, okay. What if we what if we took this back, you know, before? And then that's when I saw, like, how is there a way to to get in alignment with our sovereignty and to actually feel what intuition is? Because so many of the people I was working with, you know, in pregnancy would be like, I don't know what my intuition is. Or, you know, we'd even be like doing be doing something like cat cow. Right? Like, just like move, and I'd be like, just move your body. And people would be like, I what do you mean? And it's so sad. Breaking. And I was like, oh, shit. This goes way deeper. This goes way deeper. You know, it goes back to to our our menarche, and it goes beyond that, like, to childhood. Like, all the times that we're told to not listen to our bodies and don't cry and you don't know what you're feeling and you can't trust that sense. And so that's sort of where I I ended up going while still holding the birth work piece. It's like, how can I support people and walk with people as they're doing this work of getting in alignment with their with their body before we get to before we get to the time where we're bringing in a new life? So what does that mean? It was like their coaching or what kind of work? Yeah. So I do, I offer clinical herbal support and, like, womb wellness coaching. So that means, like, I support people in learning how to align their lives to their menstrual cycles. And part of that is a lot of, like, somatic and embodiment work of just really getting in touch with, like, where your body is and and and reclaiming the power to know how to care for your own body. So especially around reproductive and generative health, just all I mean, even going, you know, going to, like, birth hormonal birth control. Right? Like, this idea of, like, well, in the same thing as we do in pregnancy, like, okay. Well, this is what I've been given, and I will put up with, you know, the abuse and the toll that it takes on me. And, you know, that's that. That's how it is. And and and breaking that breaking up with that relationship and actually getting to know our own bodies and how to care for them. So, yeah, doing a lot of that coaching work one on one and and in groups and and building community around that. And is this mostly in person in Chicago or do you do a lot of virtual stuff? Now I do a lot of virtual stuff, primarily virtual. Yeah. I'd love to do go back to sort of more group in person things, and I do in person more one on one. But, yeah, I do a lot of virtual coaching, and I have a course a group coaching course on on lunar living, and that goes into, like, the Yeah. Nutrition and, as well as just, like, the embodiment of, like, how do we create a life that's that's in alignment with our desires and how do we even know what our desires are. Right? That that piece is so huge that I saw coming up in birth too. And I was like, what do you what do you want? What's your dream? And people would be so afraid to even to even go. They don't even know how. I mean, so many women would be, like, just to not have a c section. Like, so many women that I used to ask this question to would speak in a negative. Like, what is your dream? My dream is to not have a c section. That's not a dream, sweetheart. What is your dream? That that's not your dream. Yeah. I know. It's a lot of undetermined. For our lives too, you know. Like Right. Do everything. You know, survive. Just survive is is around. So how do we and for me, the path like, the connection between going from surviving to thriving and being in a state of agency over our lives is this body connection, is this womb intuition, and how do I feel what is true for me? And that takes yeah, it takes time and and work. Yeah. Do you have do you wanna drop, like, a quick practice if someone wants to start learning what her full body yes feels like? You know, what what could be does anything come to mind as, like, a someone listening like a a daily practice that they could start implementing? Yeah. One of the ones that that I really love that's just super simple is, having a an an object or something that represents something that you feel really, drawn to. So even if it's an opportunity, like something that feels like a yes, like you wanna say yes to it, and placing it in front of you, and then, like, reaching towards it. This is one thing one of my one of my teachers, Keven Singh, taught me. Like, reaching towards it and then feeling in your body, like, what does it feel to physically reach towards something that you really want? And, like, what is that? Where does that sit in your body? Like, can you come can you, like, feel into like, do you feel it in your chest? Do you feel it in your belly? Can you breathe a little more? Right? And then when you're there's something that you're not so sure about, can you do that same practice and feel what comes up? And I and for me, this has been something as someone who grew up with this hero narrative and someone who has, you know it continues as we do, right, to do work around boundaries. And sometimes I don't it's it can be hard to feel what that embodied yes and embodied no is if we haven't tapped in or been able to say no before. So having something really physical and when I'm trying to discern if something is in alignment for me, even if it's, like, a birth related thing. Right? Can I can I put this in front of me and drop in and feel what arises? And that bringing that connection has been helpful for me. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah. My mentor always says, if it's not a full body yes, then it's a no. I just said that to someone yesterday. I I love that. That's helped me a lot. Wow. Because that's, like, totally turns out a It's kinda game changer. Yeah. Because really, we're we're raised, most of us, to ignore our no and morph into an obligatory yes. You know? So it's like, if someone's like, can you watch my kids? And I don't actually want to. I'm trained to be like, yes. I'll figure it out. Right. Even though that's gonna stress me out and that's gonna just put me in my hero persona or whatever. And obligation really is I have come to think that obligation really is the flag that you have stepped out of your, boundaries and are now doing something, that doesn't feel authentically true for you. And that that's really helped me a lot just to just to catch that. And I'm I'm happy to say I don't do obligation anymore, and it's it's a real if I start to feel a sense of obligation around something, it's like an alarm bell is going off in my system now because that is such a no. If it feels like obligation, then it's definitely a no. But the whole other piece is, are we willing to say no? Right? And that's really, really scary for most of us. Something I I like to do with with the women I work with that who have a really hard time saying no, who have like never said no in their whole lives is put them on a no diet where they they say no. Let's say they have a partner if the partner is playful and and if it's a healthy thing. So she has to come up with three things to say no to every day with her partner, with with a friend or whoever, and just to play with that and actually, like, have fun with it and make it big. And no. No. No. I'm not gonna hand you that pen, you know, just even if it's something silly. But just to feel that and reprogram, you know, your mind that you can say no and you're not gonna get yelled at like you probably were as a kid. You're not gonna get hit. You're not gonna get abandoned. You can say no now. And assuming you have, you know, well relationships in your life now, you won't be punished for having boundaries, which is such a big a big reframing. Because I feel like they have to go together. Right? It's like full body yes, figuring out what that looks like, understanding if it's not a full yes, then it's a no. But then are you willing to have a no? Are you willing to say no? And then see really the freedom on the other side of that. And it it's that repatterning and that connection between, like, being able to speak it and then what does that feel like in the body. I mean, I would have my my wife would, like, practice with because my big thing was always, like, saying yes to opportunities, like, needing to say yes. And she would just practice. She'd be like, but don't you really wanna do this thing? And I would just have to be like, no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. It's like, find your no find your nobody. Yeah. Right? Like, find your person to practice your no with. And and then when you get to pregnancy, if you've if you've even done some of that work Right. And then you get to pregnancy and you're like, nope. Actually, I'm not gonna listen to that story. Right? Nope. Actually, I'm not your I mean, this is not open for your opinions. Like, what what a difference. Right. Because it's coming to get you. If you're listening right now and you're pregnant, and you don't know how to say no, it's coming to get you. Because at some point, people are gonna be crossing your boundaries. I mean, they already probably have been your whole life, unfortunately. But pregnancy is a whole another thing. And then you have a kid outside of your body, so you're super right for boundaries to be crossed. I don't mean with your kid. I mean with people around your kid. And at some point, you're gonna have to learn how to say no, or you're gonna be miserable, which I guess really is where a lot of people are. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the and that's the gift. Right? Wherever it is, whether you're pregnant or not, like, I find it especially to be true in pregnancy. Like, part of the gift is to make those boundaries come up real strong. And if you can be open to taking that gift, it's like, okay. I really need to get I need to get in alignment here with a gift. Yeah. Mama bear. Yeah. For your for your child. So have you attended births outside the system? Yes. I have been attending births outside the system for the past well, for a while, but exclusively for the past year and a half or so. Exclusively. Okay. So you don't attend if there's medical providers? I'm not. And now, yeah. Yeah. Nice. Hey, boundaries. Boundary. Impresso. Yeah. That's awesome. I I like have just finished because it's it's it was challenging, you know, I made the decision whether it was, you know, everybody makes different decisions to to fulfill my what I what I committed to with clients who I had been working with, you know, for seven months or whatever even though I had switched to aligning with with free birth. But, I was, like, finally released all of those folks who've had their their their births within the system. And so now I'm, yeah, working with folks outside the system. And what's that like? It feels so expansive, and it feels I what I love is that I get to I get to choose who I'm in relationship with. And I I because I'm doing fewer births as well, I can I can be more present and really feel like I get to be in reciprocity when walking with people? Part of what was really challenging for me as a birth worker and this sort of, like, professionalization of birth work was, you know, by nature of, you know, whether you go to your acupuncturist or whoever, it's more or less a one-sided relationship. Right? And that didn't feel right to me in birth because I didn't want to be attending births of people who I didn't have relationship with. And so in aligning with free birth, it's really allowed me to step into the space of I I only I only support people who are who are in my community or who are willing to be in in community with me, and that feels really, nourishing and sustainable. I think my my fear, you know, starting as a doula was, like, well, that how could I be sustainable doing births outside the system? Totally. It actually feels incredibly Way more. Humanly sweet. Yes. Because you're in in integrity. Yeah. The abundant is possible. Right. And the universe will take care of you when you're in alignment. Yeah. Yeah. And just to a lot of people's yeah. It's beautiful. So how just because women ask me this all the time, so I'm curious to hear what you have to say about it. How do would you say the majority of the women you serve come to you already wanting you as the non medical midwife? Or are you converting people? Like, they're not sure, and you coach them, and they choose it. Or or the are the majority of women already clear that they wanna birth outside the system? Because where this question's coming from is, know, we have the school now and and so many people who are curious about the school and and and the line of work that you and I both do, they're like, well, how am I gonna find the families? Like, do women really want this? And it's so obvious that they do because it's all I see. But I wonder, yeah, if you could speak to that to help help massage that insecurity. Yeah. And I don't know how hopeful it is. But throughout my journey in birth work, it always feels like when I made an internal shift, the universe is, like, and just, like, lined up without me really doing much differently. Like, I remember when I switched to to being aligned with free birth, I hadn't even changed my website. Like, my website still was pretty doula y. And all of a sudden I was getting messages from people being like, hey, I'm interested in in having birth outside the system. And I'm like, what is happening? Like, oh my god. That's so cool. It was amazing. I was like, what's happening? Well, what's that quote? Energy flows where your attention goes? Attention goes. Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, part of it I think goes, did I really believe it? Once I really believed it, it started to align. Largely, the people who who seek me out are already aligned with with FreeBirth, and I think part of that is just showing up in in different communities and and virtual spaces and in person spaces where people know that that's what I do. And so, people come to me. And when people come to me who are on the fence, largely they're interested in, like, childbirth, like radical childbirth education. And I'm like, well, whatever you choose, this is gonna be really helpful. And more times often than not people, you know, through that process are like, oh, that is what I want. Like, I want I, like, I choose freedom. And Right. It's kinda hard once you see it to unsee it. Exactly. And what's beautiful is, and I'm sure this will shift as I continue to go along in terms of where my zone of desire really is. But, you know, in this case, like, I don't I don't really spend much time converting people. It's people really like, people want it. People want it when they see it, and it's given me a lot of, ease and peace to be, like, here's what I'm offering. Yeah. Take it or leave it. Right? And the people who align will align. And, yeah. It's so possible. I mean, there's more people who are wanting this than than there are people who are supporting it for sure. Exactly. Yeah. And it's a real shift. It it sounds like that that you've made from kind of a spirit of scarcity into abundance. You know? Like, that shift of the doula role that's, like, hero y, but also convincing into, like, what happens when we don't try to convince anyone of anything. And and I feel like then you get into this arena of truly nonhierarchical support where you're already, when you're not when you don't have an agenda for someone to be different or or a different place than they are. Right? Whereas doulas, you know, I think if most of us were honest, we would admit that as doulas, it's largely about subtly or not so subtly trying to convince said person, to minimize their abuse. Right? So like decline induction or, you know, we're kind of like the, well, air quotes advocate, but really it's a lot of convincing. You know, it's like going over there all, like you said, all professional. And this is this is what's gonna happen unless you do this and you need to do this, and then they're gonna end up the heplock, but you can knock it to heplock. And it's just like So it's inspired. Yeah. And it's entire agenda, of really trying to convince people, and then trying to convince the doctors not to abuse the women we're with. Right? So I felt there's a lot of attempted convincing. And so I felt a really similar shift in my own spirit, you know, since I started Freebird Society of really making this conscious shift of what could it look like to not try to convince anymore, and to just carve out my slice of where I wanna hang out and trust that the women who wanna hang out in this arena will come. Yeah. It feels so different. I don't think anyone needs this. I don't think anyone needs anything I'm doing. I don't think anyone needs me. Right. Which is so different than how I felt as a doula. And and like I said, I mean, kind of the final point I guess is just it's it's opened up a world of what what I would call truly matriarchal sisterhood can even begin to feel like. Because it can I feel it can only exist in a non hierarchical, model which, you know, otherwise, everything we see with medical midwifery and doula ing is still, that we knew we know better? You know, we're still there to save. We're still there to hero, so we are a little bit more powerful. And when you tilt that and it's truly, like an equal plane feel like you said, truly in reciprocity and, everyone kind of in their own power and exalting each other in that. Like, it's just a totally different arena. And the women come because women women this is in our souls. This is in our Yes. You know, in our DNA. Yeah. It's in us. And I remember the first time someone reached out to me and said, I'm going to Freebird. I don't need you there, but I would love to have you. And I almost it just almost makes me wanna cry because that it's it's That's what's up. That's what's That's it. I was like, yes. I will be there. Right. Yeah. And I I do wanna mention here though, you know, for the women listening that, plenty of women along the way, especially in the actual labor or coming, you know, heading up to the labor, they will temporarily sometimes think they need you. And that's okay. That's understandable, and there's nothing wrong with that. You just need to not forget that they don't need you. Right? Like, that's part of our job as the as the midwife, you know. We're not allowed to say that word, I guess. But as the radical birth keeper, our job is to continue exalting a woman in her power even when she doesn't feel it, you know, or can't find it, which obviously, if you've ever attended a birth, that's part of the decimation is we we lose that compass throughout the journey. And and in those moments, it it is very common that a woman would, you know, kind of look to us, to give her power away a little bit or to be reassured in in maybe a hierarchical way. Right? Like, we're authorities of birth or whatever. But the game is just to not ever take it that way. And and no one really like people can try to give their power away, but if you don't take it, it falls flat. It doesn't go anywhere. Like the the danger dance is when you take it, and then you're in, you know, a a pretty unsustainable, not great arena. Exactly. When we can reflect when we can reflect the power back, it's that's yeah. That's that's our that's our job. That's that's that's our role is to is to hold that that line and reflect that. Mhmm. Well, anything else you wanna say? Any, like, words of wisdom to birth workers who who were on the path that you were on a couple years ago? Anything come through to share? As we talked about a little bit, I would just say that if if you feel that pull towards Reaper, allow yourself to dream. Allow yourself to dream, like, in the same way that we asked people in pregnancy to to dream. Like, dream what you want your life to be. Like, what would your life really look like if you were aligned with with free birth in this way? And once we once we allow ourselves to go there, I really believe it it comes it comes into alignment. And, there are so many there are so many women. There are so many families out there that that want this, and that want that that sisterhood and that that guidance. And And this really blasts through the, kind of this idea that, like, home birth is only for the privileged white, you know, people who have money. Like, you don't I mean, I do think that birthkeepers should be paid well and in reciprocity and all of that, but, this blast through this, like, notion, you know, that it's only for the privilege. You know, it's it's not true at all. A lot of women I serve are women of color who understand what they're up against in the system and take responsibility for co creating a situation that feels a lot better for them, you know? And and I I because I just detest this notion that, free birth is for, is for privileged white women. That's such bullshit. It's not true at all. And especially to to birth workers of of color and and black birth workers in particular. For me, it's just like it's this call of, like, this ancestral I mean, for all of us, but in particular, I think about, you know, the Black, you know, midwives who who birthed, you know, everyone. Right? And for those, like, that traditional, that traditional spirit holder and and birth keeper that is in our bones. And this is really this is a return to that. Like, it is our birthright. It is in our DNA, and and it's it's so healing. Yeah. And I guess, you know, some of the critique that I've gotten in this arena is but it's more dangerous, you know, arguably more dangerous for black birthkeepers, or black families, which Yeah. Yeah. I could I could see that. Yeah. For sure. I mean, that makes sense that there could be, for some black birth workers that it could be more scrutiny, more, you know, certainly for families, they're under more scrutiny, if they're especially throughout a lower socioeconomic status, you know, the intersections of all of this. And that's for everyone to kind of evaluate and see what they're up for. So I guess that was something I wanted to ask you, like how do you navigate the risks? Yeah. No. It's a really it's a really good question. And when I think about it on families ends and when fam because that's often a question I get particularly from black families. It's like, but is this putting me at more risk? And maybe and I see I mean, it's not here in Chicago. People who are choosing hospital birth who decline Right. Vaccine or who do who do one little thing. Right? Don't check the box and get CPS called on them. Exactly. And so to to not choose free birth from this place of fearing that it's more of a danger, I think is is is just false because the danger is, unfortunately, it's it's present. And I and I would kind of offer, like, take responsibility for for creating the thing you wanna see, and you're gonna be taken care of. Like, if you really take responsibility for it. Right? Meaning, let's say a family bursts outside the system, the chances that they're gonna transfer in are incredibly low if they're truly transferring in. Right? Because we know that shit is super rare. So there's always a dance to be had with the system. But I guess I just mean like putting energy towards creating a story that you do want to live is going to have a feedback loop, you know, instead of, you know, I know families who have not wanted to birth in the system, and then birth in the system and tried to navigate the system, and were worse off. Like you said, you know, to to try to say no to a couple of things, and you're literally in the arena you don't wanna be in, trying to like pave your own path, which isn't gonna work because you're in an arena that's already against you. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think often, at least the people who I talk to are even more, there's more concern not so much in the the actual birth process, but then the things like getting a birth certificate and having to deal with, you know, and and the way that people do get treated. And I I will say, like, I do often, depending on where people are, see a difference in in in how folks are treated. But finding your finding your people and, like, getting your your a community and surrounding yourself with people who who are who are in alignment, who can journey Everything. Through it, it it it makes a huge difference. And on the birth workers side, I think, yeah, we all have to find what, you know, what feels right for us. And that's another piece that I think is so powerful about free birth is that it is so expansive, and and not everyone has to be attending births. Right? Like, so many people are doing virtual coaching and and not actually attending births at all or teaching them this. So there are so many ways to be in integrity, in ways that feel right for your positionality too. Totally. And be a part of the the solution. Yeah. Yeah. So do you just have, like, a licensed midwife kind of in your arena who will do a postpartum visit or something to keep families yeah. Yeah. Cool. I'm thinking about the woman you referenced earlier in the conversation, your mentor who kinda just like reframed it. Like, if they're not traumatized, then you're not kinda thing. And I'm just wondering if you had a similar experience as me. Like, I had dual mentors, and then the more I critiqued all of this, it all just kinda came unraveling, and I felt I found myself mentor less after a while when I, like, went against all this nonsense. So I was kinda wondering what your what your journey has been like with with mentorship in particular, like, if you found women in this arena to kinda help guide you through, or has it been pretty lonely? Yeah. It's I think, I didn't really wait for my mentors to ditch me because I knew that that would happen. I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna peace out now because I could be I could feel that, you know, the alignment wasn't there. And I was like, well, then I'm not gonna continue to to come here for for support. I was really lucky that, even before coming to Chicago that there were a couple of, additional midwives in the Portland area who were really supportive, of free birth and who, you know, I could who I could contact and be like, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? And in Chicago, it has been pretty lonely, and I had it's been more challenging to find, to find community in that way, which is why I'm so grateful for all these these virtual spaces
Speaker 2
to Yeah.
Speaker 1
To come together. But in my one of my dreams is to create some some in person community here in the Chicagoland area of birth workers and birthing, you know, women and and families who want to align with free birth. So any of those people are out there. Yeah. Where can people find you? Yeah. You can find me, on Instagram at a s h e living, a s h e living. That's my business or, my website at a s h e services dot com, and I teach a lot of menstrual reproductive health things and and more birth things coming. Hopefully, doing a a BIPOC centered birth worker, mentorship next year, which will be really fun. So awesome. Yeah. Well, it's a treat to have you on and just to it's always just so inspiring for me to connect to other women who have come to similar conclusions, you know, that this is all just like these little lights are coming on for all these women around the world, and I'm so proud of you. It's it takes so much courage to, you know, take the path less less walked and to carve it out and serve your community. So thank you. Such a gift. Thank you for all your work and, yeah, for spreading that light. And that's it for today, my sisters. Check out everything we do, including one on one and group coaching. Learn about our private membership, in person retreats, and more on free birth society dot com. Our online courses are on free birth society courses dot com, including our flagship course, the complete guide to free birth. Don't miss the radical birth keeper school if you're ready to become the authentic midwife that women are searching for. Together we rise, and the revolution starts inside each of us. Our opening song is by Shyla Rae. And now, I'll leave you with our Freebird Society theme song, Wild Woman by Aruba Red.
Speaker 2
Red. I honor you for the wisdom you held, the ancient traditions of plant medicine and womb magic. I feel the spirit of the ancestors as I place my hands upon my belly. This sacred portal will be honored, eons upon light beams of survival, withstanding the eradication of our power by design. I will not allow the separation of our young to be forced upon me. My sisters will no longer birth in captivity. The picket line redefined from burning our wild women to paralyzing us and drugging our babes. Strapped down in a clinical white bed, drying up the milk from our breasts, keep your needles. My family will never again be doomed to chase those dragons, all your poison. We reject your fear. We choose love. Everything with intention. Death, ascension. I will fly and bring her back from the star.
