Speaker 0
Into the wild, I'm going into the wild, I am. It's been a wild freedom child since I left my roots back home. Into the wild, I'm good. Into the wild, I'm here. It's been a while, freedom child, since I left my roots back home.
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Free Birth Society podcast. This is a radical space for women who are ready to celebrate their autonomous choices in birth, motherhood, and beyond. Together, we'll learn about wild birth through personal narrative, we'll explore the politics of birth, and we'll analyze everything that relates to our lives as women from a feminist perspective. Here's your host, Emilee Saldaya.
Speaker 0
It's been a wild freedom change since I've left my rules back home.
Speaker 2
We've got pelvic health educator and herbalist, Maura Sternberg, on the show bringing you a powerful conversation on how to get patriarchy out of your pelvis. She offers a mind blowing shift of view on how to see our vagal nerve, our relationship to self, and invites us to get clear on what lineage we claim. Who are our masters? We talk about embracing rest as part of detangling ourselves from patriarchy and reframe self care as something that might not even feel good. Get ready to get witchy with Mora and I in this conversation today. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3
I cannot believe I'm actually here with you right now, Emilee.
Speaker 2
Should we do the whole thing in song?
Speaker 3
Yes. Wait. Yes. Why would I ever teach not in song?
Speaker 2
Oh, we should definitely well, I I will not sing publicly. However, you can. Okay. So we
Speaker 3
are here Okay.
Speaker 2
We are here to talk about exploring pelvic health. The title of this episode is tackling patriarchy through the pelvis, an exploration of female bodily liberation. You should see what she's doing right now. Through resilience practice and self responsibility, all of my favorite topics. So let's just kick us off with a little intro about you and and just let your let your passion come through. Why why are you into this?
Speaker 3
Sure. Why am I into this? I'm into this because I have had a lifelong journey with pelvic pain. Mhmm. And also, the more that I talk about my experience with pelvic pain, the more I become convinced that everyone has experience with pelvic pain for the most part. Like, I'm not necessarily I can't really remember meeting any human being who would like who was like, yeah. My my female pelvis, no problem. Yeah. No worry.
Speaker 2
I think I might be one of those.
Speaker 3
Oh my god. It's you. You're the one. You're the one. I guess. She never pees when she sneezes just a little. She never no.
Speaker 2
I don't pee when I sneeze, but I did jump on a trampoline recently, and it didn't feel great. Like, it so there we go. But I wouldn't call that pain. I wasn't in pain.
Speaker 3
You know what? I think you're right. I think this is a the this thing about pelvic pain, I think maybe the wording is not fully articulate of what what we need. Health health? Integrity. Pelvic integrity might
Speaker 2
be best. Okay. There. I can go there. I don't think I have perfect pelvic integrity. I know I don't. Because I jumped on that trampoline and was like, oh. Oh, that doesn't seem great.
Speaker 3
Is there a trampoline on the inside of me also?
Speaker 2
I have got I was like, is it normal to be jumping, holding my vulva? Okay. Maybe not. I should probably do something like that.
Speaker 3
That was the realest thing. And also, on this tip around being, like, pelvic wellness, pelvic integrity, like a lot of the people I'm a dancer. I, practice yoga. I I'm in spaces of people who are, like, being very intentional about the integrity of their bodies. And still people are, like, holding their vulvas when they jump on trampoline, etcetera. Mhmm. And I think that this is a place where, like, it's it because our pelvises are, like, our divine connection, they're how we ground out energetically, if I can go, like, to the witch world for a second. Like, the coccyx, the tailbone, that's that's like the energetic tail, the umbilical cord energetically down to the earth in general, no matter what what pelvis you're in. But the female pelvis is responsible for, like, receiving and releasing. It's this very delicate balance that's particular to the female pelvis. And patriarchy has absolutely no patriarchy has no regard nor respect for the idea that our pelvises are energetically connected to the earth. And on top of that, actively wants us to not know, to not pay attention to, to not be articulate, or have any integrity around how our pelvises are designed in this very particular release, receive dance. And so we'll go to the gym. Like, I'm like, okay. Yeah. Let's go. We'll, go to the gym. Go work out. Do yoga. All these things were created by men. Like, they're created by people with male pelvises. Cross it. Don't get me started. So, like, we think, you know, yeah, I'm training. Yeah. I'm getting strong. I'm, even just, like, engaging deeply in my body, but because the patriarchy is everywhere. It's like in your gyne office, obviously.
Speaker 2
Oh, and it built it built everything. It built our roads. It built Our trunk. Our chairs.
Speaker 4
It built
Speaker 2
our cars.
Speaker 4
It's all
Speaker 3
for the male body. Exactly. Exactly. And, like, if we just think about, like, the beautiful divinity of the pelvic floor, like, in the female pelvis, it's, like, such a complex, like, infinity loop spiral around all of the things that are going on in the pelvis. It's totally different. Like, it's structurally completely different.
Speaker 2
And it holds the womb, which is the center really of the whole body. Right. The the womb is is really the center of our of our physical and spiritual universe really as women.
Speaker 3
Completely. Completely. And also on a physiological level, in the female body, the vagus nerve so the vagus nerve is responsible for our nervous system calibration, our autonomic nervous system. It's it's how it's the nerve. It's like the big mama nerve. And it ends in the female body. Like, it has a really, important termination point in the cervix. So the pelvic floor is responsible for, like, almost like trampolining to use that. All of the, like, structural integrity of that of that of those organs. And to if any aspect of that, when any aspect of that gets thrown off because, I don't know, you wore high heels every day to school to look cute when you were sixteen. Or, like, you lift weights on your period.
Speaker 4
Or
Speaker 2
Or too tight of pants.
Speaker 4
Or I
Speaker 2
mean, just anything. Like, so much of yeah. Put be having directed pushing for hours, not resting postpartum. I mean, it's
Speaker 3
Or or, like, just how you stand. Like like, we're supposed to have, like, six packs and flats bellies. It's insane. It's like there's a uterus there. Do we know that? There's a uterus there. So when any of that stuff, like, obviously presents out of integrity, like, because of the world, the suit that the suit that we're swimming in, the world that we're living in, like, because of that I mean, the vagus nerve gets disrupted. Like, that's that's how we interpret our whole world. That's, like, insomnia, anxiety, period cramps. All of these things were like, yeah. This is just what being a woman is. Oh my god. Like, this is all one thing. Right? What if Chanel and everyone's
Speaker 2
gonna be walking around being like, my vagus nerve is, like, really
Speaker 3
My vagus nerve. Out of integrity.
Speaker 2
That would
Speaker 3
be more true. That would be very true. That would be very true.
Speaker 2
So I didn't know I didn't know what you just said about the vagus nerve being having a termination point in the cervix. I mean, that makes sense, but I didn't I never thought that.
Speaker 3
Yeah. And it it that actually kind of explains well the out of worldness of the birth portal. And, like, the work of and even, like, on a basic level, like, why you would throw up while you're dilating. Mhmm. Like, that that vagus nerve, that's that one thing.
Speaker 2
That's the highway. Faint right after birth.
Speaker 3
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so people are we're walking around, like, doing the best we can with the tools we have. But the the more that we can get really clear about which tools serve which master and the lineage of the tools that we're using. I'm not like, oh, I'm never gonna do yoga again, but I'm not gonna do yoga and think that it's gonna help the integrity of my female pelvis. No. Wow. Probably not. Unless I get really intentional about that. Like, the lineages of all these things that are just common place for us now, I think we just had gotta be get we have to get more mindful about.
Speaker 2
That's such a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. That's such a big deal. Like, who who are who who are we learning from and where did it come from and who was it made for? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And,
Speaker 3
this is also another this was really trippy for me when I really integrated this, but, like, I so when I was, eighteen, I had a hymenotomy because Why? It's a super they I got diagnosed with an imperforate hymen. I'm using air quotes if you can't see that. Well which I think is kind of a scam diagnosis. Like, it doesn't actually make sense. Okay. So do were you having symptoms? I could not put in a tampon. Like, I tried for real and, like, almost passed out, hence, vagus nerve.
Speaker 4
And But
Speaker 2
that's not really a problem, is it?
Speaker 3
It all it was a problem because I was, like, I wanna have sex. I wanna have penetrative sex.
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 3
And I was like, I actually don't I can't do this. Woah. Now the reason why that happened in my body, in my understanding, is that when I was five so at that point in my life, like, a long thirteen years prior, I had fallen and really injured my tailbone twice in the year I was five. And they weren't particularly, like, necessarily emotionally traumatic experiences. But once one of the times I felt I knocked the wind out of me and I, like, thought I was gonna die for a hot second. So that's kind of a funny story that I can go into in more detail. But the bottom line is I by the time I was eighteen, I already had kind of the word that I wanna use is like dysbiosis, which is a word we use when we talk about, like, the intestines being out of integrity. But that's really what it felt like, like, pelvic dysbiosis. Things weren't, like, in the right place, and that got diagnosed as, oh, imperforate hymen. Right? Right. When in reality, the ligaments and tendons and tissues and pelvic floor, all of that was totally inflamed
Speaker 2
from the Exactly. Well, of course, that that is why it's a scam. Exactly. Right there because so much of western medicine being a scam because it only looks at the barely skates the sky. Not root causes and and Not at all. All the dots. Yeah. Not at all. So you had a surgery surgery that opened up the hymen?
Speaker 3
Like, cut away some of my hymen. Oh. And it, like, worked, I guess. But I spent the next, like, few years having sex that was painful. Like, it was also fun, but it wasn't all I was like, I know this isn't as fun as it Wow. And I went to the gynae
Speaker 2
and What's the gynae? She was like I've never heard anyone call them the gynae.
Speaker 3
Wait. That must be a Midwestern thing. Nice. Circle. Are you serious? Okay. Hello. If you're out there and you're from Chicago, you're from the Midwest and you're listening to this, I need you to at me. At Call Me a Witch on Insta, tell me that you called the guy me the guy me, please.
Speaker 2
I see. That is
Speaker 3
a little
Speaker 2
weird. Okay. So you went to the guy me?
Speaker 3
So I went to the gynae, and she was like, oh, well, you must just be pretty anxious. Like, maybe just have a glass of wine or two before you have sex. And I was like, I'm not going to do that. No. Thank you.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Just disassociate.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Just like numb your body. I was like, dude, my, like, my boyfriend knows more about this. Like, he's not gonna be down for this plan. You know what I'm saying? Like, so I said, okay. No. Thank you. And she said, well, I could prescribe you some, like, Xanax. And I said, this is not the problem. Like, I'm not this is not in my head. This is not a Maura is anxious problem. That's not what's going on here. But, of course, there was, like, no solace to be had there.
Speaker 2
So it felt it felt for you really physical?
Speaker 3
Oh, I knew it. Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 2
Because I get not that that was sage advice whatsoever, but I get that in lots of cases, you know, women have already been molested their whole life and they've been Exactly. You know, raped by their PE teacher, and then they go to have consensual sex and they're so in their head and they're so they're so tight and so traumatized.
Speaker 3
But that
Speaker 2
is not the case here.
Speaker 3
Right. That's not the case here. And, also, when that is the case, this is that other piece where I think in general, like, we have to tend to the structure too. Right? So, like, the tissue in that case, if that woman came to me, I wouldn't necessarily say, like, okay. Yeah. We should work on some. And you can use some anti anxiety herbs for this. You know? That might help. It might, like, address the symptoms. But all that all of that experience gets gets held in the physical body. Right? So we have to go in through the physical body. In any case, that's what she said. That's the advice she had to offer me. And I said, no. Thank you. I I have a feeling that you're a scam. And I walked out and I figured that on my own, which is what I've always done. Bye, gynae. Bye, gynae forever. Okay. I cannot. This other people I swear
Speaker 2
I lied about the title of this episode. Now it's bye, gynae.
Speaker 4
Bye,
Speaker 3
gynae. Wait. Please do that, Emilee. Please do that. And so all of this is to say, it took me a long time to realize that the woman who was sitting across from me in the Guinee office, like, she is a woman and, like, she also negotiated her life with a female pelvis, but her lineage is not of women. Right. That lineage is not of people living in female pelvises. That's just not what's going on. So in
Speaker 2
fact, her lineage of of obstetrics is literally founded on rape and assault and torture and violence of the female pelvis.
Speaker 3
Yeah. So don't think no. Thank you. There's no there's no liberate. I don't think for me, I'll say there has never been any liberation there.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
Never been any liberation there. So basically, I changed I changed my lineage. Like, now I claim lineage from, like, Rochelle Garcia Saliga, the Nate traditions, and Zen Shiatsu, Eastern medicine, and you guys of free verse society and Kim and Nami, like, those people. Because without I think without that, we're lost. Without that, we're, like, power lifting. And we're, like, yeah. We're really strong. But I went to a, a pelvic floor physical therapist who said that the majority of fourth degree tearing she sees are in dancers and yoga teachers and fitness instructors because that industry is so dominated by, like, male pelvic pattern holding. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And also that is a strong narrative in industrial birth that the dancers and the Pilates teachers and the the the yoga instructors are going to tear and are going to need surgeries. And I don't really care about that narrative unless we had some surveys of undisturbed dancers and Pilates instructors because we know that those women are also getting drugged and having directed pushing and having a baby pulled out. So it's, like, doesn't really I hear your point, and I also feel protective of the violations I've seen against those women in the name of how they've used their body while they're Yeah. Literally violated.
Speaker 3
Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, I totally understand. Yes. Yeah. I it also strikes me to clarify that, like, a lot of these practices now are attached to femininity. Like, it's feminine to be a dancer or something. But again, like, ballet was made by men. Right? Like so yeah. I totally see your point, though.
Speaker 4
But
Speaker 3
Interesting. Yeah. So we I think we gotta get critical about All of it. You know the point.
Speaker 2
Literally all of it.
Speaker 3
Hundred percent of it. I think yeah. I can. And I think I'm gonna go here by way of Byron Katie. Awesome. I love her. I love Byron Katie, and I've been a little bit, I've been pretty inspired to reorient myself to, like, self responsibility as my activist work at this point in my life. Or, yeah. Self responsibility is the the change making that I wanna see in the world. Byron Katie, I'm can't quote it, but the idea is, like, who can teach peace, but people who are peaceful.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
Like, war makes war, basically. And And who
Speaker 2
can have peace, but those who are willing to actually have it.
Speaker 3
Right. Right. Right. Precisely. And so I have spent other times in my life, working on deconstructing patriarchy, working on, constructing matriarchy in various different modes. I've, like, marched and I've organized and I've led, and it's all been very useful and wonderful and very hard. Right now, I think that the thing that I'm focused most on is how I is centering the body first. Is having the body be the site of the liberatory experience and letting that radiate out from there. So I was doing important, excellent work in my early twenties, but, like, my pelvis was completely colonized by the patriarchy, by patriarchal models of understanding my body, by physically what I thought my pelvis should look like, what I was training my pelvis to look like, how I was training my pelvis by the fact that I was had been on the pill or that I was interested. I thought that, like, it was ridiculous that I needed to take a day off of work on the first day of my period, all of these things.
Speaker 4
And
Speaker 3
it's very tempting, I think, for us to want to get heady about how we're gonna fight patriarchy or how we're gonna tackle patriarchy. And we're gonna, like, lobby and write and use our brains, which I think all have their purpose. But for me, I'd found that I had done all of those things as a way to escape negotiating my actual body.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
And negotiating the patriarchy. Like, I have the image of, like, when I'm working on my pelvis doing a uterine massage, I can feel, like, dark spots. I can see it feels like patriarchy energy. It feels like the energy of denying and dismissing and violence that I'm, it feels like I'm exercising the ghosts of patriarchy that have hooked themselves into my body. And I think that that experience, that hooking energetically, even bare minimum on an energetic level, is rampant, probably happens in all of our bodies, and our liberation work will be only supported and I think, like, amplified by huge magnitudes if we can simultaneously look at the body as the seat as the as the place where we're negotiating these things. Yeah. First and foremost.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Are you willing to sleep? Are you willing to slow down? Are you willing to
Speaker 3
to like Rest to the low pack. Are you willing to rest? Yes. Are you willing to touch your own body? Are you willing to and also are you willing to experience the pain of the physical pain of what it takes to, like, rewire your nervous system and the pain on other levels of knowing of knowing what we're surviving. Like, the the deeper you get into this, the more clear it becomes just what we're surviving right now and what we have in surviving.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and so go going back to that line you said, surviving patriarchy is foundational to the experience of pelvic pain. Like, what what I think on that is for as long as we are in a state of survival Yes. Then we will be navigating some experience of pelvic pain because it's almost one and the same. Like, you're not being in that state of threat, essentially. And it it can be psychological. It can be physical. It can be spiritual. It could be the whole thing. And and this you know, in the tools that I work with, it it's kind of the and it's very similar in the vein of Byron Katie that, you know, when you're in a state of survival, you are essentially trying to get security approval and or control from outside of yourself.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Speaker 2
And there are true times where we are in states of survival like bear chasing or not knowing where you're gonna sleep that night, not knowing how you're gonna feed your kids. Like, that's those are true states of survival, where you are truly for survival purposes needing to, get security approval control from outside of yourself. But the vast majority of people, you know, in our spheres actually stay committed unknowingly to a state of survival instead of resourcing ourselves. And and so for for my own energetically, spiritually, whatever, like, for my own journey with this, I agree. It's really deep and it's nuanced, and it's kind of it's almost hard to put language to that the the this concept for me and my body and in my world of shifting out of a state of survival very much includes shifting deeper into my body from a self centered matriarchal lens, which is complicated, and there's so many layers. And it it's it you know, it seems never ending, but but I guess where I'm getting at is when we get resourced enough internally to move past a state of survival Yes. We can actually experience our bodies as, like, the central through line of liberation.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Of ecstasy. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And that it's for us, that it's not against us, that all of this pain is directing us towards Exactly. The information of of liberation if we choose to see it that way. Or you can take the fucking Xanax and have painful sex, you know? Like, this is the crossroads we're at.
Speaker 3
Yes. Yes. Exactly. It requires a reframe, a reorientation to the experience of pain as, like, a goddess sent system of communication between you and what the earth loan do that we're we call your body. I also really appreciate your, the orientation towards survival, and I can pull that thread all the way back to the Vegas nerve. Right? Like, that's that's the the central the state of survival or not is the thing that determines the state of the vagus nerve, which is the thing that determines the state of the cervix, which is the thing that determines the health of the pelvis. Like, that's that's the place between this world and the spirit world. That's the place between the outside and the inside of your body. That's the place where, I mean, a lot of the endocrine system, like, hormonally, all this stuff sits here. So runs so deep. It runs so deep. It runs deep enough that it's, like, in the literal blueprint of it's in the physiology of the body. The body is designed to, like, lead us on this path. I I Yeah.
Speaker 2
I'm totally thinking, like, for myself, like, oh, okay. I do all this work, and I'm, like, so on purpose, and I'm so blah blah blah. And it's, like, but am I willing to not have coffee to start my day? Like, am I willing to Yeah. You know, am I willing to spend really conscious present time not doing? Am I willing to Right. All of these things, you know, that my my like, the the the the part of me that is called, you know, calling me towards my own healing, like, whispers in my ear to do, and the and then the rest of me is working on this exterior layer of do do do do do. And it you can really trick yourself in that.
Speaker 3
Oh, totally. I I also my sister and I have been doing a lot of work together around rest and rest practice. And this reminds me of that because I think often we think that rest should feel good when you're doing it. Like, right? You're like, yeah, I'm relaxing. So it's gonna feel good. No.
Speaker 2
That's interesting.
Speaker 3
No. I don't know. That's not true for me. I spent the past, like, five days in kind of like a dark menstrual bloody cave. And I was crawling on my skin the entire time. I would not describe that particularly pleasurable. It it, it didn't feel, it didn't feel good actually for most of the time, it didn't feel good. And that's why this gets, that's why being able to trace the lineage of what we're doing is so important. Because the way that I have learned that rest doesn't feel good is capitalism or, like, is is patriarchal capitalism, is So in my body, it's gonna feel bad and weird and bizarre and maybe even painful. Or boring. Or boring, empty, itchy. That's what it feels like underneath my skin. So itchy.
Speaker 2
For me, it's like unproductive. Unproductive. Right? So the belief the belief that rest is unproductive is is actually very wrong. Yeah. It's actually deeply incorrect. Why the fuck do humans sleep? Like, we know we know what that rest is actually literally cycle? Yeah. Like, it's biologically productive. You heal in your sleep. It's needed. But, yeah. I I feel that. I feel the the resistance to that. My sister is really good at rest and really good at self care. She's really trained herself to be that way. And and I was telling her a couple months ago about how, you know, I wanted to start exercising again because I've been really, like, disconnected to that. And she looked at me and she said, what if you just spent a year resting? And I was like, bite your tongue, woman. I was like horrified. And she was just like, mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4
Because
Speaker 2
what my point is that where we have resistance Yes. We to the Right. To the point. The parts of us and this is where it gets a little it can feel heady or complicated in the beginning at least is if you don't have a relationship to your divinity, if you don't have a relationship to the part of you that is in alignment, that is connected to to the universe, that is connected to god consciousness, then then it it can be hard to determine, like, which voice is which.
Speaker 4
But
Speaker 2
if you do have a strong sense of your own sovereignty and, you know, your intuition, your guidance, it's it's not that complicated. Like, I do know what is calling me towards healing, and I also know the parts of me that say no to that. And and that's kind of your point of, like, where where what lineages and what thoughts are coming from what places and and take the time to really explore that because it helps us categorize those voices. Right? So the part of me that's, like, f off telling me to rest for a year, I understand is the part of me that has been conditioned by patriarchy, by domination and control, a society of domination and control and productivity and proving my worth through these outside, you know, external forces. I understand that's the part of me that's resisting it. Right.
Speaker 3
And therefore, I can work with that. Right. Right. And you you can rest. Rest easy knowing that if you're operating, if you're working to release that thought pattern, release that, consciousness, that's something that you wanna release. Like, I don't wanna release the part of me that's like no more another day of rest will do you good. Right? Once you can identify and discern, that I think that discernment piece that you brought up is really crucial. And the way the process that I arrived at being able to discern what pieces of me were communicating maybe for my highest good or for my deepest embodied experience was, like, listening. Like, asking and listening.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
Rochelle once said in a class, Rochelle, I swear to God, Rochelle Gracias Ligo saved my life. She said, people something like people keep asking, like, how do I know? Like, I don't know. I don't know what's right. I don't know. And she was like, did you ask? Did you look up and ask? Did you touch your uterus and ask? Did you, like, sit down and cry and ask? Like, you have to ask and, like, wait to hear. And that process of that for me worked best when I was doing embodied practice. Mhmm. When I was touching my body, when I was breathing consciously, when I was sitting on a steam, when I was doing a castor oil pack, it felt like
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 3
I had the somatic experience of being able to ask and receive that information.
Speaker 2
Totally. Yeah. I appreciate that. Right. Because that also can be translated to prayer altar and meditation and all of the same stuff. Like, in the vibration of rest, you can receive, and you can actually listen. And you can't listen while doing. Like, there's just a it's kind of one or the other.
Speaker 3
Yeah. This this point that you make about, rest is essential for receiving. This this aspect of receiving energetically, I think, is the thing that makes the female physiology particular.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
And it's the thing that how we've that domination training we've gone through cuts us off from the rest. That cuts us off from the understanding of receiving. Receiving guidance, receiving Yeah. Laughter, receiving money, receiving anything.
Speaker 2
Right. And then it's so easy to then listen to those around you. And then it's so therefore easy to portray yourself accidentally, which we all do.
Speaker 3
Of course. Of course. Of course. Right. Like, receiving the receptive capacity of the physiology of the female pelvis to me is like being able, like, I was in the throes of like a really, like, really bad period cramps, uterine ligament cramps. They're some of the most painful things. I've got eight out of ten pain. Ouch. Like, my round ligament sprained, well, strained, whatever. And I was in the throes. My sister's, like, moxing my back. I'm, like, naked and crawling and sobbing, and I'm can feel like a spirit. Can it is spirit is around. And I said I said to myself, my body, like, okay. I know that you need to do this. I've only got one more round of this in me. And then after that, I need a break. Like, I I can do I can have this pain for one more time, one more round of pain, and then I need a break. And when we've been in rest practice, when we've been in practice of receiving in this way between ourselves and our bodies, like, my body totally listened.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
My body could receive that from me and I had received from my body. I know you need to do this. Like, I know you're working, like, past life ancestral stuff. I know this is being worked out right now and I'm here for it. And also we become, like, co creators with our bodies, with the universe when we can receive in this way.
Speaker 2
Right. Which is you being truly outside of survival. Yes. Like, it's you actually being in a different consciousness, not just into me, you know, victim consciousness to me. Right? It's actually through me, by me, for me, and so you can cocreate consciously.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Another thing you wrote me was women's bodies are the source of divine wisdom, and we are the creatrix of the healing stories that our bodies are asking for. Mhmm. That feels kind of like highlights, I think, the points that you're making.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I've been really, educated well by my body and by my ancestors at just how I can't remember the word when it's like two to the power of three. What's that? By my high school dropout. I don't know. Oh my gosh. Like, it reverberates. Our healing right now reverberates forward and backward and it's nonlinear.
Speaker 2
Up and down.
Speaker 3
Exponential. Yeah. Oh my god. It's exponentially nonlinear. So I I know now that I've, like, touched my uterus and touched my uterine ligaments and and held myself really, I I can hear stories from my mother, from my mother's mother, from my great aunt who got put in the quote crazy house for being a spooky witch. Like, I can hear these stories being unwound as my ligaments are unwinding. And that's that's everyone. That's that's everyone. That's everyone's story of birth. That's if you're embodied in your birth, that's what's going on. Right? That's when you can feel, like, a spirit coming in. That's when you put your blood on the earth. Like, all of that is operating. And to go back to the Byron Katie aspect of change making, That work is change making on an energetic level. I believe that, I mean, sometimes our training ourselves not to see, but once we tune into, we can totally notice and change the field of change the field that we're living in.
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. Totally. Yeah. Everyone should go read A Thousand Names for Joy. That's my favorite
Speaker 3
go read that.
Speaker 2
Favorite one of hers. I felt like I was tripping on mushrooms as I read that book. I was like puzzle pieces clicking all together. Like, oh, right. And that that was where the the idea of the three types of business, you know, mine, yours, and God's business was introduced to me. And, I mean, that's been one of the most foundational tools to help me not suffer that I have in my toolbox of just whose business am I in. And if I'm in anyone's business besides mine, I don't belong there.
Speaker 4
And Yeah.
Speaker 2
Just return, return, return instead of the the exhaustive addiction to Mhmm. Be in someone else's business. Gosh. And, I mean, I for sure could not be doing what I'm doing in this public way without that tool because of how much beautiful hate and critique that gets.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Oh, I needed that I needed that revamp of that lesson just now. And it strikes me that there's this lovely parallel between, being in our own business and being in our own bodies. Right. Totally. Getting out of your own business is a great way to get out of negotiating
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
The sensation in your body. Mhmm. And I think it's also worth mentioning that, like, I do not in any way see the kind of pain that I expe for a long time, the pain that I experienced was suffering. Like I suffered in that pain, but that was because that wasn't because of the sensation of the pain.
Speaker 2
No. It was your story that you
Speaker 3
made up about it. Oh, of course.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And It was the thought that caused you suffering.
Speaker 3
Right. Precisely. And when we can, like, detach the relationship between the sensations that our bodies are giving us and our stories about it
Speaker 4
Right.
Speaker 3
All of a sudden, our our bodies are just talking to us. And all And you're open.
Speaker 2
And you're back in alignment with reality. Right? So that's one of Byron Katie's favorite or one of my favorite quotes of hers is that all suffering comes from not accepting what is, which is which is enormous. And it's so simple at the same time, but it's true. Like, you know, for anyone listening, like, track where you suffer, track it down and boil it down, and guaranteed, you will arrive at a thought that is out of alignment with reality. Whether it's he shouldn't have died, or she shouldn't have lied or I should be thinner or I shouldn't be having these cramps. Cramps.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Right. Totally. Totally. Yeah. It changes the game, and it allow it opens space for the sensation of pain. This lesson I got from listening to people tell their birth stories, but it's so it rings true so deeply like that the sensation of quote pain can be like ecstatic, pleasurable, delicious, hilarious. Like Mhmm. When I was riding on my bed, like, butt ass naked with a moxa stick, and I'm, like, pulling my sister's arm around. I'm, like, crying and sweating. Like, that was hilarious. Like, it was actually so funny. I wish we had recorded it just for laughs.
Speaker 4
That
Speaker 3
that's the place that that feels like liberation
Speaker 4
to me.
Speaker 2
Well, not seems to be where women can hang out sometimes in birth when they describe their births as pleasurable or orgasmic ecstatic. Like, it's a real fine tilt. It's a real fine tilt.
Speaker 3
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. And becoming fully embodied in our pelvises, unwinding the disease or lack of integrity, all of that work is made much more delicious by the ability to see pain or sensation as minimum information, maximum, like, delicious, hilarious.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
Ridiculously fun.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, in either way, one of my favorite terms is for me. Like, okay, how is this for me? How is this migraine for me? How is how is yeah. Migraines are Yeah. Migraines are kinda my, like, my hitch and my giddy up. Like, that's that's a really hard one for me to do the work on. I feel so victimized by them.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 2
So debilitated by them. But I've done a lot of a lot of emotional work around it, and it really does come back to a lot of what we've covered of my own resistance to surrender and rest.
Speaker 3
Yes. You
Speaker 2
know? Yes. Like, oh, shocker. I have a migraine after nine hours of staring at a screen and hearing all these trauma stories and, like, holding an enormous amount and not balancing the freaking the freaking thing. Yeah. Okay. So
Speaker 3
for your your year of rest. It's coming up, Emilee.
Speaker 2
Oh my god. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it kind of has to because I would like to welcome in another pregnancy, and I feel so deeply protective of that. And so what does it look like to create a year ahead of me where pregnancy is easeful and nonstressful? And how can I you know, I wanna be prepared to ally with six to twelve weeks of nausea, you know, and have that not be a problem? And so, you know, and what does it look like to spend twelve weeks postpartum not on a screen? And these are things that that hold enormous importance to me in my life, and yet here I am with this busy online company. So that's what I'm trying to to figure out essentially in in my life.
Speaker 3
It's intense work.
Speaker 2
Yeah. It
Speaker 3
is a hard work, and I will. That's a lovely parallel because the only actual reason really why I started to think, maybe I should heal my tailbone. Maybe I should actually, like, heal this pelvis stuff that I'm working on was that I was, like, twenty five and thinking, okay, someday soon, I wanna have a baby. And I had that thought, and the first thing I saw, it was my tailbone, it breaking in labor. Mhmm. And, like, I already knew I was gonna be, like, in a bathtub. Like, it was weird that I saw that. And I was like, what is this? And then I arrived at this understanding. Like, my brilliant body had said, hello. Please pay attention. We have to we need to organize around this before you're ready to call new life in just like what what you're talking about.
Speaker 2
And so have you healed it? I am so I am at
Speaker 3
the very tail end.
Speaker 2
No pun intended.
Speaker 3
The very tail end of my tail healing. I my coccyx is, like, finally back in the right place. Hey. The the ligaments around it are finally, like negotiate their lives with relative ease. This last part is just this uterine ligament dance that's happening. My uterus spent a lot of time tipped, like folded in on itself and tipped to the left and a little bit forward. So my ligaments are like, wait a minute. This is where a uterus is supposed to be, but so close.
Speaker 2
So have you done internal work with a with a practitioner?
Speaker 3
Yes. Yes. Wound massage, externally, like, traditional Mayan massage, and internal vaginal work, and with a practitioner, and self external massage internal. And also a lot of, like, holding, what ended up being acupuncture points and just, like, breathing.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
But, like, the place where the top of my thigh meets my pelvis.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
There's a lot of energy stuck in there. That competitive Irish dance background I have. Like, okay. I got to work on that.
Speaker 2
Oh my god. I need to see video of that. Yeah. And you are someone in this country that if you had stayed on on the gynae train, you would have, been labeled, you know, with endometriosis and had a hysterectomy. Oh my god. Yeah. Like, you would just wouldn't have a uterus. Like my mom. Like my mother. Of course. Wow. Good on you, girlfriend.
Speaker 3
It's hard, but it is so worth it. It's so delicious.
Speaker 2
Do you have anything to share around Pap smears? Because I get asked this a lot, and we do have a whole section on this in the complete guide to free birth. Yolanda speaks on it, very, very well. Yeah. But I I haven't really talked about it on this podcast specifically, and it's a very common question in our community, understandably. And, like, I I don't engage with the gynae at all in any way, shape, or form. I don't think I've ever even had
Speaker 3
a pap smear. The gynae. See now. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. No. I'm all about it. It's it's my new word. But, yeah, I'm curious what you have to say about it because for me, it just seems so obvious that I don't want metal scraping out parts of my uterus to from a, yep, what's the word? Path you know, from a pathological lens to find something wrong with a bunch of strangers going inside me. Like, it just feels very, very, very, very obvious. I don't want that. But, obviously, the other side to that is, you know, this notion that that western medicine is largely based on of, like, but what if? What if? And so I I find it pretty misogynistic and counterintuitive because if we're in right relationship with our bodies, you're attuned to all these messages. Yes. But but yeah. What do you think? Paph smears.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. I have I am in the same space as you, Emilee, where I'm like, I have no interest in, having things touch having anything touch like the sacred portal between the worlds that has anything other than, like, complete and utter whole bodied reverence. I don't do a lot of, like, self cervix practice. I do a lot of, like, palpation, but I don't do a lot of looking because I like, visual self assessment of my cervix, because I literally hate what's the speculums? I hate them. Just not gonna work for me. But I know a lot of, people who do do that and can, like, do visual, checks or do physical checks for, fertility awareness method. But beyond that, I know a woman who's doing particular work around healing pap smear, holistic approaches to healing. What they'll tell you is quote wrong with your cervix after a pap smear. What to do to bring, like, to bring, your energetic self and integrity to a Pap smear, should you choose to go that route. I don't know. On Insta, it's cervical wellness. Her name's Danelle Barbara. I don't know if you've heard of her. She's doing a lot of excellent work that I, really respect around deepening relationship with cervix. Cervix is the portal to the divine and what that looks like for the people who are interested in getting the Pap smear, but also want to change the narrative around getting access to that information. But beyond that, I so usually when people come to me with questions, r e Pap smears as in I think that I want Pap smears, but I wanna do it in a way that's still in integrity. I usually send them Danelle Barbara as someone who I trust. But in general, like, I'm not going to. I'm not, like, I'm not going to rely on a Pap smear beyond my own touch, beyond my own intuition, to tell me what's up. And also the things, of course, the things that Western medicine is looking to protect us against are things that happen when, we, like, seriously disrupt our vagus nerves and our cervixes with IUDs and non organic tampons and, like, all of the myriad of other things that we do to mess around with our cervixes. So I'm of the prevention is the best cure model.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think that a lot of women in our community are really just asking for to be affirmed, you know, that their intuition is enough and that they don't need to have some big study to prove to their friends and family why they don't engage with the patriarchal system. Like, you don't you don't need that. You No. Can opt out and then deal with the internal investigation that it invites you into. Right. Right. Exactly. And that place, that space of, okay, well, I
Speaker 3
I didn't go to the doctor, but now something's wrong with me and I could have caught it earlier. But what if that hadn't happened and blah blah blah? Like, that future tripping or when it happens, if that happens, like, that's that's where the medicine is, in my opinion. That's where, like, the that's where actually the healing is is reckoning with Yeah. What Your mind. Radical self responsibility actually looks like. Right? Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, another thing you wrote that that caught my eye that I wanna hear you speak on is you wrote engaging in our own healing work through our pelvises is a double spiral of dismantling embodied patriarchy and of activating our own divine female power. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3
Yeah. That I mean that when, when I take a day off of work and castor oil, the place over my the left side of my pelvis that's a little bit puffy because there's lymph tissue there from the uterine ligament healing. When I do that, that in deciding to prioritize my body and deciding to
Speaker 4
prioritize my
Speaker 3
pelvis and deciding to prioritize, like
Speaker 2
Your healing.
Speaker 3
My healing, the she within me. Right? The thing that's bigger than just me.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
I it's like two it's two at once. It's not just like, oh, I I hate the patriarchy and I'm gonna smash that. It's and it's not just, oh, I'm building this new thing. It's both simultaneous. It's both that I am rejecting all of that narrative in my head around being productive and being a good worker and being a
Speaker 4
useful citizen, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 3
And also, I citizen, blah blah blah. And, also, I'm using my body as almost like a the site to that which I'm building upon the like an altar. An altar to the receptive yin energetic power that the female pelvis is physiologically designed to represent and designed to portal us into and through. It's mostly, like, just respect. Like, respect the earth, respect this, respect my pelvis at me. So Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2
So for women who are new to this concept and and really resonating with it, why don't we wrap up on some ideas and offerings and suggestions and things that work for you? And and where would someone who's kind of new to this even begin to treat their body as an alter or, invoke this concept of rest and and, you know, yeah, the honoring of of their uterus and their pelvis?
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's one level of this answer, which is kind of like the list of self care practices to try. And there's a lot out there. So I'll I'll just touch it briefly. Things like, castor oiling, heat packs, resting on the first few days of your menstrual cycle, not exercising, not running on the first day. I don't know if any, like, marathon runners.
Speaker 2
Just not pushing yourself.
Speaker 3
So right. Your uterus is three times the size it normally is. It's not designed to be running. And steaming self touch that isn't sexual, self touch that is meditative, which can't be sexual, but with the intention of, meditative attention and mindfulness practice. But underneath all of those, like, activities to try, the framework that I use with myself and with the people that I work with is about how well the pelvis is receiving, releasing, and maintaining. So how well is your pelvis, receiving pleasure, receiving a spirit baby? How well is your pelvis, in its reproductive capacity? How well is your pelvis releasing, like pooping and peeing and bleeding? How well is your pelvis in, like, what does it feel like when you squat? What does it feel like when you pick up a heavy bag? What does it feel like when you jump on a trampoline? So these three modes to receive, release, and hold or maintain, I kind of invite people to just think, like, where am I at with those things? Like, where actually what what does it feel like when I take a shit? Like, what does that actually feel like for me? Do I need to zone out on Instagram to avoid the fact that, oh, it kinda hurts on the left thigh? Or that left hip is tight, so I always overcompensate when I'm doing squats.
Speaker 4
Mhmm. Just
Speaker 3
to get curious and invite inquiry about Notice.
Speaker 2
Notice. Yeah. Like, stop checking out.
Speaker 3
Stop checking out. So I just just start paying attention, asking your body to tell you what's happening when it needs to receive, release, or hold. And then from there, that's how we get out of the paradigm of, like, I have a pain. I'm gonna take a pill. Or I have a pain. I'm gonna take an herb. I mean, I'm an herbalist, so we often treat herbs, I hate this, like pills. But the way to get underneath that is to track what you're actually feeling. And, like, this is really about radical responsibility and radical orientation to embodiment. So, like, what's at the root? What's underneath that? What story is underneath that sensation? When did it start? How did it come to be? How do you think about it now?
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that's like a two step because there's the, can you listen? Are you willing to listen? And then the next step is then are you willing to do it? And that that's where I feel like I hang out. Like, I can definitely listen.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
But I I haven't taken full responsibility for then doing it, embodying it.
Speaker 3
Mhmm. Yeah. And that's space that's interesting space to to traverse. The question the questions that come to mind when I'm in that place are, like, what what does it mean to my body to say, oh, I hear you. But then to, like, not do shit about it. You know?
Speaker 2
I mean, so material.
Speaker 3
Right. Sometimes I almost think my body would prefer that I don't listen. Better better, like, don't even hear what I'm asking for than be like, oh, yeah. I know. And then, like, turn and walk the other way. My body's like, are you serious? Like Yeah. We've been telling you this for years, Maura. Mhmm. Yeah. It's tricky terrain. And also also, I will say that I'm a divine timing kind of person. So sometimes I all the times in my life, I've it's been the right moment when I decided, oh, I'm gonna do this. I'm actually gonna take this seriously. I hear you. I'm gonna embody it. So
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's so easy to depending on your your mind, if you are a perfectionist type a, you know, self critical, whatever y person, which thankfully I'm not, but it's really, tempting to use this use this conversation as another way to shame yourself, disconnect Exactly. Even further, like, beat yourself up. So, you know, in this exploration, and it is so layered and it is it is lifelong, you know, to do this with from a space of curiosity, from a space of softness, and from a true space of allyship with with your body and with where you are, and that it's Mhmm. It's it's really deeply okay. And and true sustainable shifts don't happen from a space of self loathing. They happen from a space of self love. And so that's a really interesting tricky part where I see a lot of women or I coach a lot of women who they they they think and I I've caught this too myself. Like, they think they're in a lot of self work, but it's it's unsustainable because it's actually secretly rooted in criticism.
Speaker 3
And hatred.
Speaker 2
And self hatred. Yeah.
Speaker 3
It's still
Speaker 2
yeah. Not quite not quite there.
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's only your body. This is so real though. Your body and honestly, your biggest nerve to to get specific really only register the work that you're doing as healing when under when healing and love is at the core. Right? Because we can't trick our nervous systems into believing that self judgment or self hatred is, like, good for the body. Yeah. Our nervous systems can see right through that. Your cervix can see right through that. Your cervix knows that if that's what you bring. So that's that is really the step one, which is why the lit like, the laundry list of self care things to try. I mean, play around, of course.
Speaker 4
Well, and
Speaker 2
we can all take a Epsom salt bath not in presence. Exactly. We can do that and still be thinking of our to do list and and, you know, looking down at our bodies with with with a nasty lens. And, yeah, this is where I mean, this is the, like, infinite loop back to presence and essentially, like, nothingness. Like, there really isn't anything you have to do. Like, there's there's a Osho quote around, that the only journey is a journey outwards because you start you already start inside. And so any journey is actually a journey away. Like, getting
Speaker 3
rid of where you wanna end. So Right. Stay stay there.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So where can people find you and and continue to learn from
Speaker 3
you? Yes. Our website is blossoming daughters dot com at blossoming daughters on Instagram for the work that my sister unravel anything that comes up in your inquiry, your presence inquiry. But in general, on Insta, I'm at call me a witch. So if you wanna come ask DM me questions about the work that you're doing and or connect, I'm there as well. And I just wanna say thank you so much, Emilee, for the space that you hold and the work that you do and how you operate in the world. Mhmm.
Speaker 4
I
Speaker 3
really appreciate it. Thank you
Speaker 2
so much. Yeah. You too. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 3
Thank you. Thank you. Oh, so lovely.
Speaker 2
And that's it for today, my sisters. Check out everything we do, including one on one and group coaching. Learn about our private membership, in person retreats, and more on free birth society dot com. Our online courses are on free birth society courses dot com, including our flagship course, the complete guide to free birth. Don't miss the radical birth keeper school if you're ready to become the authentic midwife that women are searching for. Together we rise, and the revolution starts inside each of us. Our opening song is by Shyla Rae. And now, I'll leave you with our Freebird Society theme song, Wild Woman by Aruba Red.
Speaker 4
I honor you for the wisdom you held, the ancient traditions of plant medicine and womb magic. Magic. I feel the spirit of the ancestors as I place my hands upon my belly. This sacred portal will be honoured, eons upon light beams of survival, withstanding the eradication of our power by design. I will not allow the separation of our young to be forced upon me. My sisters will no longer birth in captivity. The picket line redefined from burning our wild women to paralyzing us and drugging out babes. Strapped down in a clinical white bed, drying up the milk from our breasts, keep your needles. My family will never again be doomed to chase those dragons all your poison. We rejected your fear. We choose love, everything with intention. Death, ascension. I will fly and bring her back to the star.
