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Into the wild, I'm going into the wild, I am. It's been a wild, freedom child since I left my roots back home. Into the wild I'm good. Into the wild I am. It's been a wild freedom child since I left my roots back home.
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Free Birth Society podcast. This is a radical space for women who are ready to celebrate their autonomous choices in birth, motherhood, and beyond. Together, we'll learn about wild birth through personal narrative, we'll explore the politics of birth, and we'll analyze everything that relates to our lives as women from a feminist perspective. Here's your host, Emilee Saldaya. It's
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been a wild
Speaker 2
freedom check
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since I've left my rules back home.
Speaker 3
Alright, Sally. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3
So we've got a big big conversation today, a big story to come through you today. And I first just wanna, yeah, just acknowledge your courage and your I I wanna I wanna appreciate your willingness to share this story with me and then by extension with many, many, many other women who will hear this with great honor and appreciation as well. So, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Thank you for having this platform. It's yeah. It's it's been such an inspiration for me and such a big strength for me having, you know, community. So thank you. Where should we begin? I think, like, my the the journey started with my with my son, Casper. My my birth with him really shaped a lot of my beliefs about birth and just completely remolded everything. I know about, well, about the health system and the medical system and, obviously, I've listened to so many podcasts on on your platform and have heard that it's not uncommon for women to go through something similar that I went through. So I got pregnant with Casper, and me and my partner were over the moon. I was working full time then. I was running my restaurant at the time, and I didn't really drop into the birth. I thought I was, but I wasn't really. And I think, like, I was a first time mom. I didn't really I had one other friend that had a kid, and I had never even really heard about free birth. But I knew that I wanted, like, very, very low intervention. I wanted to birth at home. I wanted to do it all naturally. And that was kind of like the end of it. Like, I didn't think that it was gonna be such a huge transformation process, and that's really what I see the birth space as is, like, labor transforms the maiden to the mother. And yeah. So I was pregnant with Casper. My pregnancy, I just was working. I didn't really change anything. I was super, super healthy. We we had one scan, and I just I didn't even think about it. It was just like, I'm pregnant. Let's go get a scan. And we went and got a scan, and I remember walking out and just being like, that really didn't feel right. Mhmm. And so we would we we kind of started thinking about our birth plan, and I knew that I wanted a doula. And I wasn't sure what to do about a midwife. And in my area, they have a birthing program that's free, and it's through the system, but a midwife from the system comes to your house for your home birth. And I was like, oh my god. That's so amazing that we've got that. Wow. Okay. Cool. That's what we're gonna do. And, yeah, as long behold, it was not a good decision. So during that time with Casper when I was pregnant, every single appointment that I had at the hospital and the hospital in Byron is pretty small. It's not this big. There there's way bigger hospitals in our area. Like, they don't even they don't do any surgeries or anything there. It's like a very chill hospital, and everyone get kind of, like, gets relocated when it's something really urgent. So going to the hospital didn't feel too crazy for me, But every single time that I went, I had a different midwife, and that was kind of like a big red flag. But I just had this, like, good girl mentality and didn't wanna, like, be difficult and was just like, I'm just gonna go along with it. And I only met my midwife that I was birthing with two weeks before my birth, and I really I got along with her just fine, but I didn't connect with her other than the service she was providing me. And she kinda, like well, along the journey, she one of the midwives is like, okay. Go and have your twenty two week scan. And I went into that ultrasound. First of all, the I don't know. I'm not sure of the technical term that ultrasound person is called. Is it a Technician. The technician. So she was adamant that I have a vaginal scan or a vaginal ultrasound, and I was like twenty two weeks? It's so weird. Right? And I was like, no. I just don't really like, I don't want that. And she pushed and pushed and pushed and was like, you like and then she did the the belly one and was like, look. You really need to have, like, the vaginal one because I can't I'm not getting this read. So I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker 3
It sounds like she wanted some practice.
Speaker 4
Totally. So I'm on the bed. She did the vaginal ultrasound, which was so uncomfortable. I hated every second of it. And then she was like, oh, I still can't find it. We're gonna have to, like like, I don't know. It was just and I walked out of there, and I was just like, what was that? Like, it felt really yucky. So, yeah, that had really tainted my ultrasound experience. And so I met my final midwife before birth in Casper, and everything was fine. But I just like, in hindsight, I reflect on everything that they the the tools that they were giving me were all just to try and regulate my pain. Like, that was it. There was no, like, spiritual education. There was no, like it was just so bland and, like, okay. Like, the TEMS machine. You need this. These are your pressure points. These are the positions. So for me, I just thought I was going into, like, a marathon, basically, and I was gonna use all these tools to keep going. And that's honestly kind of, like, what happened in my birth. I went into labor. It was just me and my partner at home. It was really soft at the start, and I remember thinking like, oh, I really wanna go for a walk. And I messaged my midwife and was like, oh, I really wanna go for a walk. And she said, no. Lie down because I have a birth tonight, and you can't I don't want you to get your labor going. You just lie down and rest. Woah. Keep your legs together, little lady. Yeah. So then Gross. And I was just you know, I just kind of was like, okay. Yep. Like, just went along with it. So I laid down all day on my side. Mhmm. And that night, things really picked up, and my contractions were really strong and really close together. And I think we called her at about four, and she came and my partner set up the pool. And as soon as she walked in, she basically said, like, something's wrong. She was like she was like, your contractions aren't timed correctly. I'm gonna I I think I should check you. And it was just that immediate feeling of, like, something's not right. So that was the first kind of, like, that was the first impression I got of her coming into my birth space. So I'm just like, something's wrong. Like, something is like, what's what's wrong? And she actual she left, and I was laboring in the pool. And she's tried to stop me getting in the pool, and I was just like, I'm getting in the pool. Like yeah. It was just an absolute mess, basically. So earlier in so it's about six thirty, seven AM, another midwife came out because she had left to go home and rest. Okay. Other midwife
Speaker 3
So something's wrong, and then she leaves to rest.
Speaker 4
She said that because my contractions weren't timed correctly. Oh my god. Yeah. And she was like, you know, just keep working through it. I'm gonna go home and rest, and I'm gonna get someone else to come and replace me.
Speaker 3
Epic. Like, I'm gonna come in and, like, shit all over your bird, freak you out, fuck up your
Speaker 4
And then bail.
Speaker 3
And then bounce
Speaker 4
because I need to be that shit is so unethical. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So as she leaves, this other woman comes in, and, like, as soon as she walked in, I was like, I really don't like this woman. She was, like, really, really harsh, like, no softness whatsoever. And she was like, I think you should come to the birth suite so we can monitor you. We've got, you know, a big pool there, blah blah blah. And at that time, I was just like, okay. Like, it was just like I was just so compliant. I was like, yeah. And she was like, you know, why don't you come in? I'll see if we can give you a little bit of, like, pain relief and, like, see how you go at the birth suites. So we get in the car. We get to the birth suites. Like, as soon as I got into the birth suites, I was like, there's absolutely no way I'm birthing here. Like, fluorescent lights. It was so cold. Like But they call
Speaker 3
it birth sweet, Sally. Isn't it isn't it nice and warm and friendly?
Speaker 4
No. It was, like, honestly horrible. And they because I had vomited a fair bit, they gave me a drip, and the drip was so like, I was convulsing in this bed. I was absolutely freezing. So we were there for, like, ten hours, and then the and, like, I just knew I wasn't gonna birth there. So the midwife that came to our house, the one I didn't like, said, look. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna lie you down. I'm gonna give you a chair. And she gave me a sweep without consent and broke my waters. And after that, yeah, after that, it was just like the pain was so like, it was unmanageable for me. And my then my my actual midwife comes back in, so they kinda swap out. And she was like, I think you should go to hospital and have have an epidural and just rest, and you'll be able to wake up from your rest and push your baby out. So
Speaker 3
That's so easy.
Speaker 4
Go to the hospital.
Speaker 3
That's so easy. It was just like there's
Speaker 4
I On every level,
Speaker 3
they're selling you a home birth. They They don't give a shit about first time moms. They already think that first time moms can't do it. She's exhausted. Like, every every part of them is stacked against you. It's just so it's really crazy what a lie it is and that it is the system that is what everyone's interacting with around almost the entire planet. Like, it's so wrong.
Speaker 4
Yeah. And, you know, I really do try and have, like, respect for people in their field, but the lack of trust, like, is crazy. And at one point, when we were walking through the car park to the birth suites and I'm in labor, a friend that I know walked past me and was like, hey, babe. And I was like, oh, I'm in labor. And she was like, oh, no. And, like, that energy hit me, and I was like, oh, that's what I need. And then I just went straight into the birth suites, and it was, like, the complete opposite. And I was like, can't someone just tell me that I'm, like, doing good? You know? And, like, bless my partner. He's, like, so unbelievably supportive. He's my absolute rock. But, like, he had no idea what was going on. He thought something was wrong. Like Yeah. We were just listening to this narrative and was like, okay. We need to go to hospital to, like, save our child. So we go to hospital. I get the epidural and which was fine, like, in you know, I didn't have any there was no damage or anything like that. And they when he get when the obstetrician came in well, sorry. The obstetrician came in, and Casper's heart rate had dropped. Like, I think the midwife said it was, like, one like, zero point one percent. It was, like, a very, very low heart rate drop. And when that happened, it was, like, the alarms went on. And, like, five people rush in, and there's this obstetrician standing there, and he was on the phone. He gets off the phone, and he goes, okay. You've got the you've got the green light for a cesarean. And this was, like, ten minutes of us being there. And I just looked at him, and I was like I was like, no. And he rolled his eyes and looked at the other, like, obstetricians and doctors and said, well, we all wanna go home early tonight.
Speaker 3
What? Oh my god. Yeah. You are in a hellscape. This is a Yeah.
Speaker 4
Doctor chamber hellscape. Oh my god. Yeah. So we're like, I'm lying there thinking and then he, like, said, like, you know, if you don't have the cesare if you don't have a cesarean, like, your baby could die. Oh my god. And after he left, like, I was so upset. I was like, oh my god, have we made the wrong choice? But I was like, I'm not having a cesarean. And I knew instinctively that Casper was fine. And I turned to the midwife that was on our tape on our, yeah, table, and she was like she was like, oh, you didn't need a cesarean. Like, you made the right choice. And I asked her, I was like, you know, what what's what's the, you know, what happens when the heart rate drops? And she's like, oh, it's so normal. She was like, you know, most children have that heart rate drop when you have you've just had a massive dose of, like, you know, relaxant into your system. She's like, it's totally normal. Like, your baby's fine. So it was just like yeah. Anyway, so I
Speaker 3
It's like psychological warfare.
Speaker 4
Yeah. And, like, for him to say, but we all wanna go home early tonight, it's like, you're about to cut me open.
Speaker 3
And risk your life.
Speaker 4
I'm like yeah. It's just like the yeah, and then no joke, it was, like, three we we kinda rested for three hours, but my partner went to the toilet, and the obstetrician cornered him to try and get him to convince me to have the caesarean. It was just like, I could not believe it. But at the time, it was just like, how do you even process that, like, as it's happening? You know? So I'm lying on the bed. The midwife that was now with us was actually so beautiful. She was so caring and tender, very, very hands off, like, didn't touch me without my consent. She was actually like, she saved that whole scenario. Well, she's
Speaker 3
hands off now that you are drugged and strapped down. Like, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4
Like, no. Fuck that. You know? Like, the and the standards are so low. The fact that she, like, wasn't horrifically threatening you. You know? Like, damn. Yeah. So she like, it comes time to push. It was all, like, very, like, push, push, push. Like, I pushed Casper out in, like, I think it was, like, half an hour. And I don't know what happened, but I was really adamant that I didn't want the epidural even. And the midwife that was on, I don't know if she stopped, like, giving me juice, but I could feel his head come out. I could like, I had a lot of feeling. Even after he came out, like, I could move my legs and I could walk within five minutes. So that it was nice to be able to feel that experience and not be completely numb. But as soon as Casper came out, there was, like, a little bit of macromion. And he's on my chest, and he's crying. And, like, there was, like, a little gurgle in his in his cry. So it's, like, alarms on. They come and grab him off me. They're plugging him with oxygen. Then I'm lying there watching that happen, and this woman comes up to me, not the midwife, a different woman, and jabs me in the side of my leg with Pitocin. Is that right? Yeah. With Pitocin and, like, grabs my umbilical cord and yanks my placenta out straight into a medical waistband. And, like, I was lying there just like Wow. I just couldn't even roast. Like, it's so hard. Like, you're in labor, and then you're also processing something, like, deeply traumatic, but you don't know it's traumatic yet because you don't know anything else. It's just like yeah.
Speaker 3
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Speaker 4
So they then take Caspar to the nursery or the yeah. The nursery. Tom's with him, and I'm like I'm like the crazy woman. I'm like, I'm going to my child. So I get up and, like, there's blood coming out, and I'm like, get me in a wheelchair. Take me to him now. They wheel me into the room with Casper, and Tom's holding his hand. And he, like, he is so plugged in. Like, there's, like you know, I just I looked at him, and I was like, what the fuck are you do like, when did this happen? Like
Speaker 3
Oh my god.
Speaker 4
And the midwife goes, you can't breastfeed him because he's on a glucose drip. No consent of any of that. And I was just like, what do you mean? She was like, well, we need to, like, wean him off the glucose before you can breastfeed him. And I touched I touched him, and he, no joke, ripped everything off. Oh. Like, ripped his oxygen off, tried like, he was just he knew. And then I was just like, I'm breastfeeding my child. And she was like, oh, well, I guess you can now because he's not plugged in. And as soon as I grabbed him and put him on my boob and he started breastfeeding, like, I watched all of his, like, things on the monitor just perfect. And it was just like even in that, I was like, why are you giving him glucose when, like, like, my boobs are right here. Like, I'm ready to breastfeed him. So we dealt with all of that. We were in the hospital for, like, twelve hours, and every single minute of that was us trying to get out. But I was also trying to be respectful of the nature of and it got to the end, and this obstetrician was like, oh, I just need to do, like, his eye test, and they just wanted to first of all, they wanted him on antibiotics for twenty four hours. We said no. Vitamin k, we said no. The death threats. Like, you could kill your baby. Like, it was just, like, intense, really intense. So we finally got him out of there, and the last obstetrician that wanted to test his eyes, I cried to him and was like like, I just don't want anyone else to touch him. And he actually saw me in that moment and was like, okay. Like, I'm not gonna do this eye test. I'm just gonna write down that his eyes were fine, and you can go home. I'm like, I'm pretty sure if there's something wrong with his eyes in a couple of days, if it's, like, serious, I'll come back. Like, you don't need to flash a torch in his eyes. So that was pretty much. Yeah. Really, really full on. And I don't think I even realized the extent of, like, how traumatic it was until I got pregnant again, and just realized that well and then I, you know, I found Free Birth Society, and I was just like, wow. Like, thank God you are doing what you do because, yeah, my experience was just absolutely horrible in the system. And, yeah, still is really horrible in the system. So I guess that kind of leads to yeah, I was, like, nine months later. I had, like, one period and got pregnant again. And, yeah, that my pregnancy with twins was so different. Like, I was so present. I really pulled out of, like well, what I thought I was doing was pulling back from work and, like, limiting that kind of grinding hustle that I am really accustomed to. And, yeah, that pregnancy just completely transformed me. I knew from the moment I felt pregnant that that I wanted to free birth, and I started meditating. I was going to birth circles, and, you know, the community in my area is just amazing for free birth. I went to a three day birth retreat on sovereign birth and, yeah, I just I had never felt so healthy and so full of life, and it was just an amazing nine months, honestly. And I yeah. There was, like, one part of me that was like, I really there's a birth keeper in my area that's just she's incredible. And I was really drawn to her, and I kept kind of, like, going back and forth and meditating and asking my babies. And the answer was from them that all they needed was me. Every time I meditated, I was like, you know, what do I need for the birth? Like, what and every single time, it was like, we just need you. So
Speaker 3
Did you have a sense that the was it obvious to you there were two?
Speaker 4
Never.
Speaker 3
Okay.
Speaker 4
And it's so interesting because, like, I was doing I was going to a chiropractor every week. I was doing kinesiology. I was doing, acupuncture. I like, every single person that touched me or was in my field that was a healer or an energy worker or a practitioner all said there's one. And it must have been the way that they were sitting. I only ever felt one set of kicks, and I'm so attuned with my body. And I was, like, I was big, but I was so big with Casper that everyone was just like, oh, second time around, you're so much bigger. You know? And, like like, after birthing them, they were very, very different sizes, which is, like, the common kind of factor of the condition that they had. So, yeah, I don't I'd like, it's just a mystery. I don't know if Melvin like, maybe one of them never really kicked because of the way that they were in their sacks. Like, I just don't know. Yeah. But, yeah, I never some some sometimes I would be like, oh, like, you know, if there's what if there's twins? But it just didn't even, like it actually didn't even bother me. I was like, if there's twins, there's twins. You know? I just had so much trust and so much faith in my body. And, you know, we we went back and forth about getting a a birth keeper or not. And in the end, like, my partner and I just had such a strong connection, to our birthkeeper that, like, it felt so right to have her in the space. And, yeah, so I get to, like I think I was yeah. It was thirty six weeks, and I was, like, setting up my second restaurant at the time, and it was pretty exhausting. And that's like an understatement. It was absolutely exhausting. And I pretty much, like, finished up there to go on maternity leave, and I had two days of not working and then went into labor. Oh, that's horrible. And it's just the way that it was. Yeah. I mean, I don't look back and wanna change anything, but I definitely if I ever go through pregnancy again, like, it's gonna be even more different and, like, more pulled back. So, yeah, I went into labor. I it was, like, I think it was, like, seven PM, and I knew I'm like, that kind of week, I was like, something I feel like something is opening. Just energetically, I felt really out of it. I could just feel that I was gonna go into labor soon. And I, yeah, I would have been, like I think I would have been, like, thirty six and six, but I was never a hundred percent sure, obviously, of my due date. And because I only had that one the first bleed that I had sorry. I had two bleeds, but they were both really light, and they were two weeks apart. And I think that was just my body, like, recovering, but I was never sure if that second bleed was, like, spotting from my yeah. It was all like I didn't know. So I went into labor. My waters broke, and I knew my waters were gonna break the whole pregnancy. I was like, my waters are gonna so my waters broke at, like, eight PM. My partner set up the pool and then went to sleep with my son. And it was just really light to begin with, and I was just, like, cruising through it. And then it picked up at about ten, and I put myself in the bath. And then it, like, really picked up, and I felt like I was in a psychedelic trip. I was using my voice. I was just in a state that was so different to my first labor. I was just so in a I absolutely loved every second of it. The pain was so different. It was like a I could really feel it transforming me. And then I, like, vomited, and I knew like, I could have kept vomiting, but I stopped and was like, no. I've got this. And even just that, like yeah. I feel like when you spew in labor, it's like a real like, you're purging all of that fear. You can either keep purging or you can be like, no. I've got this. And I really felt that energy of, like, no. I've got this. I'm not gonna keep vomiting. Like, I'm just gonna keep get back into the labor. And then my partner came in and helped me out of the bath, and we went into the living room where the pool was set up. And I, like, laid on the couch for, like, one contraction. And then I just remember saying to him, which is, like, the classic, I was like, I I don't wanna do this. And he looked at me and was like, yes. You do. And I was like, yeah. I do. So I got in the pool and, like no. I was lying on the couch, and I just all of a sudden, like, my body was, like, hinging, and I was, like, grunting. And I was like, oh my god. I need to push. And I couldn't even believe how quick that time was. It was a couple of hours. And so I got in the pool, and, like, all the pain just dissipated. And I felt the contraction. It just felt it honestly felt amazing. And I had this kind of, like, mantra almost from a woman. A woman kind of said it in my one of my birth circles, and it she said, you know, instead of, like, every single contraction being, like, how can I get out of this? It was like she said, like, you know, when I've had contractions, I said, how good can I make it? So every contraction, I was like, how good can I make this contraction? And the last contraction, like, I could feel Dusty's head coming out. I felt the ring of fire, and then it was almost like my body did what it needed to do. And, like, my back just arched, and Dusty just came flying out. And he was, like, very, very alive, like, screaming. He, like, was small, but not, like, too small. Like, I've seen I don't know what he weighed. Like, that's we're just there's so much mystery in this. So he was very, very alive, and I was just holding him in the birth pool. There was music playing. It was just like, everything was dripping. It was beautiful. And then I could feel like, my contractions are still really strong, and I felt inside because I instinctively, that's just what I wanted to do, and I could feel what I thought was a placenta. It was, like, very, very soft, kinda like jelly like. And I was like, okay. Cool. That's my placenta. And I was holding Dusty, and I was, like, kind of trying to push while I was sitting down. And I was like, no. This isn't happening. And that's when my birth keeper walked in, and I barely even noticed her. And she came in, and I was, like, in my own world. And she was like, you know, why don't you try kind of leaning forward and squatting a little bit to help the placenta come out? So I did that, and I put my leg up on the side of the pool. And she was like I I I turned around to her, and I was like, is it my placenta? And she said, it's another head. And I like, the the shock of that and, yeah, was I don't even yeah. Again, like, it's so hard to process when it's happening. And just, like, one more little push, and Melvin came out. And at that point, my birth keeper was in the pool, and I kinda tried to scoop him up, but, like, they both had quite short cords. So it was really awkward, and she got into the pool and was holding him, and he was completely stillborn. And it almost like, when I looked at him, it was almost like I was looking at him. I it was so hard to connect with him in all honesty, and I've Slack spoken to him from you know, in different ways, and he's you know, it's all forgiven, and there's no you know it was all just meant to be. But it was so hard to connect with him. It was so he was so white. He was almost like this, like, fluorescent moon. And he was so much bigger than Dusty, which was like like it was just like, woah. Like, what what's in what is happening? And my birth keeper and I were in the pool, and I just felt this really strong con contraction for my placenta. And I was holding Dusty, and Dusty started to I don't even like, the first thing that you do when a baby starts to not be fully there is you always think it's the breathing. But I was in like, I was holding him and looking at him, and I just knew that it wasn't his breathing. It was something else. It was like his life force was starting to go. And my birth keeper was, you know, like, hey. Let's focus on let's focus on him. So I was really trying to give him all of my energy. And but at the same time, I was like, my I need to birth my placenta because it was so strong, the contractions. And she said, okay. Let's just stay squatting in the water and keep him in the water, keep him warm, like, try and, like, just really connect with him. And in the next contraction, my placenta came out, and I was holding him. And as soon as my placenta left my body, he basically, like, went limp. It was like an indescribable moment, but it was like the energy that I felt was pure peace. It was not I wasn't like there was no emergency feeling. It was just this, like, this it was like it was I can't describe it. It was like a very, very spiritual holy moment where we were in this portal of life and death at the same time. And after he went limp, it's it's kind of all really murky. My partner called the ambulance, and Dusty was still like, he had, like, what you know, the medical term is he had electricity in his body. So he was still stuttering a little bit, and he was still, like, making tiny little gasps. And it was so hard for me because I was in such a state of bliss, and all my body wanted me to do was sit and, like, connect with him and be in that moment. But, you know, my partner called the ambulance. They arrived in eight minutes. So they arrived pretty much as I was getting out of the pool. I couldn't have been there, like, any faster. And, like, in that time
Speaker 3
Did you want him to call the ambulance?
Speaker 4
It was so it was like, once Melvin was born, my stillborn, my birth keeper was like, I think we should call the ambulance. And my partner just grabbed the phone and called the ambulance. Like, it I didn't like, you just I don't know. You just It's so she That's just what happened. She made the call, and I I agreed with her. I just, like, I didn't know I thought there was still an opportunity to save my son's life. And in that moment, that's just what you do. But, like, having the knowledge that I have now, like, I hope that every mom and I know this is so like, it seems dark, but it's so important to have a death plan. Because as soon as those ambulance arrived, like, everything was fucked, basically. They came in, all the lights went on, And then they just like I don't it was like they were in slow mo. Like, I don't even know what was happening. They just, were unpacking all this stuff, like, really slow. And my birth keeper was like, hey. Like, come on. Like, tryna get them going. And then they like, I'm holding Dusty, and I'm like, he really needs, like, he needs oxygen. Like, that's when it kinda started, like you know? And I'm like, he really needs oxygen. And they went to Melbourne and started trying to resuscitate him. Mhmm. And my birth keeper was like, what are you she literally was like, what are you doing? That's the it's the wrong child. Like, it was just like I don't know. And then they basically, like, gave Dusty oxygen, and we're like, okay. We need to put him in the ambulance. So I I left, and, like, I didn't even say goodbye to Melbourne. Yeah. And that was just how it happened. Like, I didn't have a choice. So I was in the ambulance, and thank God I was shut off from everything else that was happening because my partner had to be in the house with ambulance and cops, and it was really, really not nice or sacred. It was actually disgusting. They called five ambulances and five cops, and they blocked the entire street off. Wow. They yeah. They like, my my birth keeper was like, hey. Like, I think we should bring the other twin into the ambulance. Like, you know, energetically, they need to be together. They need to be with the placenta. And they just looked at her like, you're crazy. They tried to so I was walking with Dusty into the ambulance, and I was holding him in the ambulance, and I could feel, like, tiny little flickers of life still in him. And I was like, he needs a blanket. Like, it was freezing. And they just took even so long to even just, like, get me a blanket and, like, I'm in this ambulance, and one of the workers was like, okay. You need to put him on the bed. And I was like, I can't let go of him because I know he's gonna go. And she was like, you need to put him in the bed. And as soon as he left my body, that was the last the last moment of life that he had. And then they tried to separate me from him. They told me I couldn't even be in the ambulance with him. And my birth keeper, like, just had my back. She was like, she is staying in the ambulance with her son. So then we got to I went up to the hospital, and they worked on Dusty for, like, another hour. And then they he the doctor came over and said, you know, he's had electricity in his body, but, like, he's officially not going to make it. So then we yeah. We're in the hospital for hours holding him and giving him love and
Speaker 3
So your husband came and met you?
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they they
Speaker 3
they took Melvin?
Speaker 4
So Melvin was still at the house, and, like, even, like, my partner my partner was my partner had Melvin the whole time. He was sitting on the couch holding him the whole time, and, like, my my partner, like, went to put him down, and the cops were like, you can't touch him. He's evidence. Yeah. And Tom was like my partner was like, I'm touching my child. And then he went to go, like, get me clothes because my birth keeper was like, you know, Sal needs clothes. He went to go get me clothes, bought the clothes back out, went back to, like, hold Melvin again. Again, you can't touch him. He's you know, you can't they even tried to stop him from getting me clothes. Like, it was just ridiculous. And so we're in the hospital, and the detectives they have to put detectives on every, you know, every childbirth. They treat it, you know, very seriously. And the detectives went to our house and then came and met us at hospital and said, you know, you guys aren't under investigation. There's no case here. It's, like, dropped. There's no suspicion. We just need to get a statement off you in the next couple of days, but, like, this is just a tragedy. So yeah. And that happened on the day? The day. Yeah. So and then we kind of had to say goodbye to Dusty, and we went home. Thanks. And, you know, obviously, we're in a deep deep grieving state. And then it was like I think it was like two days later, it got leaked to the press. And
Speaker 3
You know how.
Speaker 4
Like, it just it was one of the ambulance workers.
Speaker 3
Motherfucker.
Speaker 4
Yeah. And it's just like when you like, for me, I'm such a, like, unsystemized person. I really don't like I don't go to the doctors. You know, I only go to the doctors when it's, like, really urgent. I'm supernatural. You know, I try and just live a very holistic life. And the fact that, like, you lean on the medical system to support you in a time of, like, what seems like crisis, and they go and fucking leak your story with so much misinformation. Like, first of all, they said Byron Bay. Like, we don't even live in Byron Bay. So they're using, like, that town to make out that we're, like, you know Yeah. Hippie. And yeah. And then it was, like, they said that I was twenty six weeks pregnant.
Speaker 3
That's weird.
Speaker 4
And that I was yeah. The the story was the first
Speaker 3
In a way, that's better.
Speaker 4
Right? I was like like, when the first story came out, I was like, this isn't even about us. Right. Like, twenty six weeks pregnant. Like, why would I have a birth pool set up at twenty six weeks pregnant? You know what I mean? Like, just the fact that they just guessed that. And then it's like they said, I was twenty six weeks pregnant. I had twins, and they died because I refused to get an ultrasound.
Speaker 3
Oh, amazing.
Speaker 4
Yeah. And it was like, first of all, how do you know I'm twenty six weeks pregnant if I refuse to get an ultrasound? Like, it just doesn't even your story doesn't even make sense. So that was kind of circulating.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Let me follow that timeline. So so you said two days later, it got leaked to the press. Does that imply that two days later, something was published?
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Speaker 3
So within forty eight hours of you losing your babies, you become aware of an article in your
Speaker 4
community? Okay. Well, I I was really, like, I wasn't I didn't put any energy into it, honestly. I really tried to shut it out. So the first it kind of happened in stages. Like, the first articles that came out didn't name us, and I really try like, the first article that came out, I almost laughed at it. I was like, this is a joke. And then it kind of, like, manifested. And after a week, I had people messaging me being, like, you know, put your Instagram on private. And I was like, what the hell is going on? Because I just wasn't I wasn't fully aware of how explosive it was. And then it was probably I think it was two weeks after we had all of the major news channels trying to get in touch with us. And this one woman messaged me on Facebook asking for a statement, and I said, like, no. No. Like anyway, she that very next day leaked our names with all of our information and our photo. And that's when it felt really scary, and, like, just got so nasty. And I really was trying to, you know, not kind of take it in, but, like, some of the people things that people were saying. It was like, you know, I look at that and I'm just like, you've gotta own that, that you said that. Because that's disgusting that you would shame a mother that's just lost two children, like, weeks after she's just lost them. And, yeah, I just I saw the lowest of low through that process. But, yeah, it was yeah. We there was all the media stuff, and then we really, really battled with the coroners. The when the newspaper article got leaked with our names and our photos, the so the coroners initially called us and said, we don't we're not gonna do autopsies. Like, we're just gonna send them send them home from the hospital, which was the biggest like, we we just thought that was normal. We're like, okay. Beautiful. Like, we're gonna get them back. We had found an incredible, death doula. She's has a funeral service here, but it's like it's not it's just so it's incredible. She wraps them in paper bark, and her space is like this beautiful adorned, like, womb. Yeah. She really made the very final process really amazing, despite everything we went through with the coroners. So it was a couple of days later they said, the boys are coming back to you. And then it was almost in correlation with the newspaper articles circulating more and more that she called us. And the the woman that we were speaking to was just, like, the admin woman. She wasn't the one making the decisions, and she was as nice as she could possibly be. But, like, I still kind of think she's a bit evil for what happened to us. So she called us and said, oh, they wanna autopsy Dusty. Melvin's stillborn. And we looked into we were like, okay. Like, why? And she was like, oh, I can try and find out, you know, an answer, blah blah blah. It was all really vague. And then she called us back a couple of days later and said, they wanna autopsy both of them. And we said, like, why? What is what's the reason? And she said, the reason is health and safety of society. And we said, what what does what does that mean? And she said, oh, it's just to give the paramedics feedback. And we knew in our hearts, like, that we didn't want our children to be autopsied. So we kind of were back and forth with her, and we're asking, like, our options, like, you know, can we say no to this? And she said the only way that you can the only way that you can oppose an autopsy is in the supreme court. And even if you win, they can still do it. So we just had to surrender to that's what was gonna happen. And it was, like, on the Friday, we spoke to our death doula, and she said, hold them and try and get non incisions. They can do a scan. So we called her straight away and said and she said to us, you know, I'll I'll call you one final time and make sure that you because you we could still go to court, and we weren't gonna do that. Why is no
Speaker 3
one telling you to get a lawyer?
Speaker 4
Oh, it was all like like, the system here, like, we when we spoke to this admin woman and said to her, like, you know, what's the process if we actually go to court? She said, they can still do it. Like, there's no like, it's just the way it works. Well, of course, they can. I was talking But that's Yeah.
Speaker 3
That's that's, of course, what someone opposing you who's coercing you to do something you don't want is going to say. Like, I'm, you know, I'm not even really saying this at you. I'm saying this at anyone who's gonna learn, you know, anything, you know, if they ever have to interact with this stuff. Like, get a fucking lawyer. I don't care where you live. Get a fucking lawyer. Because at the very least, it will show them that you mean business, that you will not be pushed around, and that they better be crossing their t's and dotting their i's, and they need to come correct. And nine times out of ten, when I've seen parents do that, they're they back off. You never hear from them again.
Speaker 4
I Yeah.
Speaker 3
I investigate that that's not your story. But for anyone whoever might find themselves in this impossible situation, you know, like, of course they say, oh, I'm so angry. Okay. So then what happens?
Speaker 4
So I think it was like like I don't know. We were, like, grieving. We're dealing with the media, and then we've got this, like, woman from the coroner's calling us every single day, telling us something new that they've, you know, going to do to our kids. And, like, so we I called her on Friday right before they closed, and I said, you know, is there a possibility to get scans instead of incisions? And she said, look. I'll call you back on Monday, and I'll let you know if that's a possibility. But if the coroner decides that there needs to be an autopsy, like, it's almost like trying to fight if someone thinks that you're guilty of a murder. Like, you can't like, you have to go to the extremes to prove your innocence. Like, the same with this. It's like, if they decide, like, we were broken. You know? Like, my mom was going through defamation lawyers in Sydney trying to have our photo removed. Like, it was just, it was just so much going on. And I call her Monday, and she ignored me. I was calling the office calling the office trying to get through. This other woman kept saying, oh, she'll call you back. She'll call you back. And finally get through to her Monday afternoon, and I was like, look. Did you end up seeing if they could not do incisions? And she said, oh, they've already done it. So we processed that, and then she said, look. They'll they'll probably be back within, like, a week or two. We just need to do the paperwork. A couple of days later, she calls us again and says their tests are inconclusive. They didn't find anything, and they now wanna autopsy their brains. And my death doula has said that she had dealt with many childbirths, and she had never experienced them wanting to ever do a brain autopsy on any child. And at that point, we were like, we're going to court. Like, we can't have this happen to them. And, like, when I say that I begged them, like, I begged. And I said to this woman on the phone, can you please just ask the coroner, like, please? We don't want this to happen. And I've at that point, I've got I think I was at a point with the like, all of this stuff that I said to my partner, like, I can't talk to the coroners anymore. Like, you're going to have to talk like, my body. Like, there was so much, like, going on. And he took over that, and he started to they so at the coroner's, they have someone that works in the legal department that sets up your court case and can advise you on how to kinda go forward with opposing it. So he was speaking to them on the phone, and they said, so, like, this is the whole process, blah blah blah blah blah. And he said, okay. Yeah. Like, we we definitely don't want their brains to be autopsied. And the woman goes, oh, they've already done that. You can just oppose them sending the samples away. And, like, yeah, it just it was just, like, yeah, just thing after thing after thing. And yeah. So just that whole year was, like, honestly, like, the most torturous process I've ever been through in my life, having to deal with that. And then we had to wait. So all of this happened in the first, like, two and a half weeks, and we didn't get them back until forty seven days later. Oh. And our death doula found that the hospital didn't do the paperwork properly, that they were all held up, that, you know, she said to us, you know, I think this is discrimination against you guys for rebirthing, for, you know, me and my partner. We, we're both heavily tattooed. He's a tattooist. Like, we're weirdos. Like, we stand out. And I just yeah. She just said, like, she's never seen anything like this before, but a part of me just can't play into it anymore. It's just, like, I don't see the point. I'm just like, the only way that I can win is by, like, sharing like this. And, you know, like, the the whole pivot of everything for me comes down to, like, a couple of days after the birth, I had a friend come over. Well, a sister come over and give me a womb massage, and she, she can speak to the other side. And I didn't know this before she massaged me. And halfway through the massage, she was, like, crying a lot. And we finished up and she said, like, she said, look, I can access the other side. And they were coming through so strong through your body. And they wanted me to tell you that they were never meant to be two. They were always one soul. They were always one person and they had lived many lives and they were just here to end a cycle. And they were so grateful that I carried them and that they were just here to show us more love. And when you have, like, divine messages like this, like, that's my truth. Like, it's not that I didn't have an ultrasound or I didn't do x, y, and z. It's like, yeah, when you know this, like, greater kind of meaning, like, everything else is just, like, what ifs. And my death I'm sorry. My birth keeper, like, no joke. Like, the day after that I got those messages, I called her and was like, I'm gonna I need to share this with her because, you know, we we are now, like, so soul sisters. You know, she came to the hospital. She waited for us. Like, she was there through everything with us. And, you know, we've both been like, our lives have been dramatically altered together. And I called her and told her what my friend had said, and she couldn't believe it because she had a breath work session that same day and received the same messages. And yeah, like, it's just all the media, all of the corners, like, when I come back to that truth, it's just like, you know, that's what I'm I live with now. Like, that's where I kind of sit with all of it. So, yeah, that's pretty much like the whole operations of the story. And I've had such a huge life shift. Like, everything's changed for me. I am, like, just living so slow and so in connection with my son, and my psychic portal is just completely blown open. And, like, all of the crap in the world, all of the media and all of that, like very low vibrational human interaction, like that means so little to me now. Like, yeah. And it sucks that, like, it sucks so much that this is my story, because it's not easy. It's been very, very, very challenging, but there's just so much love and light on the other side for me. And in a way, like, I'm so I'm so grateful for them choosing me. And I don't, like, I don't know what I would have done if I had have gotten the scan. Like, if I had gone down a different path, the options would have been very, very, very, very medicated. What do
Speaker 3
you think the scan would have shown?
Speaker 4
So the boys had a condition called TTTS, which is a really rare condition where twins share the same blood vessels on the placenta, and it they were both in their own sacs. But because they share the blood vessels, they take nutrients and blood from the placenta at different rates, and the they grow at different rates. So they were, like, very, very different sizes. And it means that one twin basically becomes the donor, and one twin becomes the, like, receiver. And, like, they just they rely on each other to live. So if, and like the only way to, I guess, like solve this problem is with laser surgery on your placenta to separate the yeah, to separate the blood vessels and reattach it to the placenta. It's like yeah. Even just saying it, it's, like, so crazy. And, like, once that happens, like, if I had have gotten her ultrasound and gone down that road, I would have been in hospital every week getting a scan. It has such a high fatality rate. And even when they do that operation, I think it's like a very, very high risk that one or both twins will have either, like, cardiac or respiratory or bladder issues. And
Speaker 3
You had gotten a scan, which you weren't gonna do. But even if you had and you had been given this information, like, do you really think you would have done the crazy ass sci fi surgery?
Speaker 4
No. I wouldn't have, but I don't know what I would've done. Like, if I had gone down the free birth route, then I would've had this knowing that, like, my pregnancy would have been so stressful knowing that my boys have a really high fatal condition. You know? Like and, like, my pregnancy was the opposite of that. It was the most, like, life filled I've ever felt, you know? And I wouldn't change that, and I can't change it, you know? Like, knowing what I know, knowing that they are not meant to be here, even if I had gotten if I had gotten the laser surgery and gone through all of that and birthed in the hospital and they hadn't have made it, like, first of all, I don't think I would be open to those messages. I would honestly have so much hate and so much, like, distrust in the system. Like, it the story would be so different. You know? I would be so much more broken if that's the the way that I walked. So I'm I'm so grateful that I had such an incredible birth experience. And, you know, I look back and I'm like, oh, should have we called the ambulance? And you go through all of these thoughts, but it's just like, it had it just you can't change it and you just have to, like, return to the love and, like, yeah. It's like I feel like it's harder being in the love and being strong than turning around and blaming someone. And I spoke with my birth keeper on end about this, and she had, after my birth, she had two really hard births with women that were kind of blaming her for certain things. And she said to me, she was like, in a way, like, your birth was perfect. And I know, like, people will listen to that and be like, what the fuck? Like, no. It wasn't. But I didn't intervene with anything. Like, everything happened exactly as it should have happened. And because like, we just have such a huge fear around death that, you know, I've found that people, they think that I did something really wrong. They think that I didn't try and save my children, that because I didn't have an ultrasound, like I was the reason they didn't live. And like, to that's the stuff that I ignore because it's like
Speaker 3
Sir.
Speaker 4
Everything that I did was for my children, and it still is. You know? And yeah.
Speaker 3
I mean, those are those are very, very, very captured people. You know? Like, those those people's opinions could not matter less.
Speaker 4
Totally. Totally.
Speaker 3
I'm not saying it's not fucking stingy to have, you know, gnats fly in your face, but they're so captured.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Speaker 3
And I I totally hear your birth keeper's point. And, you know, this is a this is a story knowing their condition and knowing how serious it is and how how, just totally unlikely it is for souls inhabiting bodies like that in that dynamic to to survive if beyond birth with or without that surgery. I mean, it is it is it is is almost a a clear, you know, sentence of of of not compatible with life, with with being on the outside of your of your body. And I guess I just wanna say that it's so obvious to me that you did right by your children. It's so obvious. You know? And and it sounds also quite obvious that you know that, but I still wanna say it because your birth and your pregnancy were such a gift to your family and to these souls. You know? Like, how how sweet that they had so much consciousness to choose such a high vibrational mother and family that that they could on some level, you know, trust that you would give them the, the death that they came for. You know? The life that they came for, they were very alive inside of you, and they lived a life and they lived a complete life cycle shorter than what any mother would want, obviously. But at the same time, like, objectively, it is a complete life cycle. Right? And and that they chose you and chose your womb to to grow and and for Melvin to die in is just such a high, high honor. I don't know how else to say it. You know, these are all very, like, taboo words and phrases to talk about this stuff because, obviously, you and I don't come from this, but we come from a culture that says babies aren't supposed to die. And and not just the babies aren't supposed to die, but also that, death always has someone to blame and there's always a reason and that death is wrong. Right? It's that death is wrong and death is a punishment, and it's all very silly. It's all very little vibrational. And, and, you know, I've been doing birth work for a very, very, very long time, and so death as a part of, something women walk with and mothers walk with is is just, like, very normal and doesn't make it less tragic or painful or anything like that, obviously. But my point is that you did have the perfect birth In that, you claimed your space. You chose your pregnancy, state. You loved your pregnancy. You chose a really peaceful family centered birth in your home surrounded by people that loved you and the people that touched your babies. You know? Like, it's as peaceful and loving as it gets. And and if we zoom out and we go, okay. What if we knew that these babies were always coming to go? Right? Which in a way, if you had gotten the scan or not gotten the scan, like, that is what turns out to be true, and you would have had that information earlier. And like you said, I don't really see how that could have served you because I don't think it's the kind of situation that would have likely resulted in, survival or or and and, you know, thriving. Like, yeah, they would have gone to NICU. They probably would have died in NICU had they even been born alive, you know, at the time of the surgery. I mean, you know, like, come on. But but the gifts of sitting in the mystery of your pregnancy, the gifts of your willingness to be in the mystery didn't just give you the blissful pregnancy, but it allowed for you to give them the birth and then the death that they came for. And I hope you walk with I hope you walk with that honor because that's a high consciousness state to hold, and it's hard. And it's, you know, like, most people will not understand what we're talking about. And that's kind of a big thing to still hold your head up, you know, in spite of that and to kind of find yourself on the other side of that, is a really big is a really big spiritual deal, though it sounds like you're really well supported. But you did write by those boys in every way. You know? And it says so much to me that you could feel his like, the placenta coming out and you could feel his life force going. And then as he left your body, you know, that that he was done, it just says in that as as painful as that is, there's also so much peace in that story that's like, yeah, there wasn't anything to do. There's just
Speaker 4
nothing to do.
Speaker 3
You did it. You didn't think there was to do.
Speaker 4
Yeah. And when I when I, like, deeply think about it, if I had have known that they weren't gonna survive, I purposefully wouldn't change anything. I just would probably not call the ambulance. But then, you know, like, if we had called the ambulance a little bit later and Dusty was fully not alive, then would that have been a way more suspicious case? You know what I mean? Like, there's just Yeah. So and I just think, like, the like, all they ever knew was love, like, from conception to, like, the very last moment, and I feel like I was the vehicle for freeing them. That's what it feels like. It even in the space, it didn't feel I think people and, obviously, like, because of the way that we live, like, people think death is just such this big, messy emergency, whereas being in that space and witnessing what we all witnessed, it was so incredibly peaceful. It was like this there's only, like, one word to describe it. And it's like like it was like, an act of god. And, like, call it God, call it spirit, whatever you call it. Like, that's what it felt like in that space. Like, it was like this holy experience. And I spoke to my birth keeper, like when the, when the ambos came in, it was like the syntheticness of their presence compared to what we were basking in. And, like, you know, we were obviously trying to problem solve and try to save Dusty, but inherently, like, I couldn't switch into emergency mode because I feel like I my intuition and my my knowing was to bask in the piece of it because it was his last moments. And when they came in, it was like it was just so synthetic, and we just saw this parallel universe kinda come together in the weirdest way. And, yeah, in a in a way, like, I know that, like, I know I'm strong enough to go through this and share it in the hope that, you know, women do have more education on what happens when, you know, this kind of thing plays out. Like, unfortunately, we need to be somewhat prepared in in death when we birth. And yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah. And for anyone who who doesn't know this in the legal system, there's a really big difference between a baby born not alive. So a baby that it's defined by having taken a breath. And so a baby born stillborn like Melvin was, in the free birth, you know, kind of world from my understanding around the world really, it's, it's usually handled pretty simply. But if you birth a baby that has life defined by breath, which, Dusty obviously had, then that's a whole different world. And he is he will he I mean, this particular baby was born alive, obviously, but but also I'm thinking of other stories I know where a baby could be born with a heartbeat but not take a breath. And and I can't speak for everywhere, but in those situations I've seen, that would still be considered stillborn because breath is life. Right? Anyway and so, yeah, that is protection and engagement with the system and something to know about and be smart about, because then
Speaker 4
I mean, if
Speaker 3
if this isn't obvious, because then, like, what what, Sally just hinted at, if they hadn't have called, then it there's more of a potential case to create a picture of intentional manslaughter, of intentional, intentional murder, you know, is is really what they would be looking at as, like, fucked up with what is to even think about. But, anyway so and like you like you said, again, this is just good information because death isn't talked about, you know, really anywhere at all. And I I'll just speak about my country in the US that any anybody from any age, baby or eighty years old, anybody that dies outside of medical supervisor, there will be a case. There will be an investigation to make sure there's no funny business. So it's not specific to moms and babies. Anybody that dies, you know, outside of medical institutions, there will be someone designated to look into why. And was it natural causes or was it not? Yeah. So I just maybe that's just good information for everyone to have. Most most babies, you know, at that term, it is not very common. And I mean, also, I'll just say, because I know a lot of pregnant women listen to this. Yeah. I mean, yes, stillbirths happen. Babies born alive that then die is very uncommon. That's this is a particular and quite rare situation in the, you know, in the situation that Sally described. But, yeah, that's really quite an uncommon, very uncommon, situation that the baby would be born physiologically at term and then die so quickly. And so in a way, I mean, it's it's a weird thing to say. It's good. It's not the right word. But I'm I'm glad that you're aware of the condition
Speaker 4
and
Speaker 3
that you know about it. You know, I I work with lots of bereaved moms who, you know, won't get that piece of information because it won't be obvious. You know? It it will it will stay a mystery as most fetal deaths are. Yeah.
Speaker 4
Which,
Speaker 3
like, of course, you know, most autopsies will never render any information. That's another thing that you all listening should know. Very, very rarely does an autopsy of a fetal death show, or an infant death in this case, would show anything at all. So another reason to not do it if you can avoid it. I mean, that's just horrific. There's no words for the violation of not getting to choose what happens with your baby's bodies, and I am completely confident that it was punishment. Of course. Of course.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah. It is so it it is like the battle of light and evil. I mean, it it is. You know? Like, this is an evil, evil, evil system at play. And it also has to be the place that we call to save our babies, which is, like, really fucking twisted.
Speaker 4
It's wild. Yeah. It yeah. Just it sucks that, you know, we've come so far from our natural beings that that is what we rely on for help when we're in a state. You know? It's just yeah. I there's no words to describe it really. It's just it's really wrong.
Speaker 3
Yeah. The but the point you made, I do think, is quite valid around had you not called how the optics of that would have played. I don't think they would have played in your favor, which would have more thing to navigate. Yeah. Yeah. Have you looked into kind of the last thing on my mind is have you looked into I'd just be curious about any legal repercussions of the ambulance, the confidentiality, and, like, HIPAA compliance, you know, total violation. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 4
Maybe at
Speaker 3
the end of the day, what, you get them fired. Okay.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Speaker 3
You could get some money.
Speaker 4
I mean, I could totally go there. Like, I've spoken to my death doula, and she was like, you've got a case. But for me, it's like, all I'm doing is, like, trying to beat the man, and I'm gonna get some money. You know? And yeah. Money. Money is still It's not it's not worth it for me. Like, I would if I can change one person's mind and turn them onto free birth and turn them into the love, I've done my job. You know? And so that's my focus. Like, if I go down that road of going into the system and fighting the system, which I know I can, like, I have the strength and I have I think I have the intelligence to be able to do that, to take him down, and I have the support to do it. But vibrationally, it's not like, it's a fucking waste of energy for me. Like, it's like I'm getting into a suit and going into a courtroom. Like, I'm going back to the Mordor of where it all you know? And I
Speaker 3
guess the only the only, like, thing I'd argue is if you could find an attorney to do it on contingency, you know, meaning that you don't that you don't pay them, they they would take a percent of your winnings. You know, they do most of the work. Like Yeah. There's some stuff you'd have to participate in. But, yeah, I totally hear you vibrationally. I totally hear you. But I do I do also think there is a way to play the game and come back to Mordor and play it with your army and your resources. And, also, fuck you. And thank you for the, you know, six hundred grand that I'm gonna get from you. You know? I don't know. I'm just saying.
Speaker 4
I mean
Speaker 3
services make a lot of money.
Speaker 4
Yeah. I mean, if someone is listening to this and wants to go, like yeah. I would I would I would explore it. Yeah. I think, you know, we're still in a in the grief stage, and we've only just got yeah. We've only just gotten to a place where the media's kinda died down, and we don't have that external noise affecting us. Our lives, like my connection with my son and my partner, I quit my business that I've been running for four years. I stepped down as director. I yeah. I just anything that is not aligned is done for me. And, you know, I'm just in a place of, like, I'm really loving life, and my boys have gifted me that. Like, prior to them, I was like, grind, grind, grind. Like, I'm really creative. I was, like, setting up two restaurants, like, just nonstop. And I think after, you know, everything that's happened, I just have realized, like, that's not the life for me, and it's been my life for, you know, thirty odd years. So to have such a huge shift and a revelation and to really be just opening to the gift of, like, relaxing and being present goes to go back into the system and to fight it, like, I'm exhausted even just thinking about it. But you never know. Like, yeah, the my my death doula said to me, she was like, this has to be this is just some kind of sacrifice. Like, you've there's something coming good from this. And she was kind of saying, like, you know, you you do have a case, and I'll back you because I've never seen anything like this before. And the hospital really did stuff up. They didn't the nurse on or the social worker didn't sign off on our papers. So the boys were sitting there for, like, a week, and they don't have the facilities to keep them cold enough. So, yeah, there's so much, like, error in the medical system with what we went through that I definitely could fight it, but maybe another time.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, and that stuff, I think, would be harder to get. Well, not necessarily. But you're really you're talking about multiple different, suits, actually, because the ambulance, you know, media leak
Speaker 4
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 3
Is a very specific one. And then there's the, you know, fuckery with the morgue and, you know, where where were your legal rights, you know, with with the corner stuff and then, you know, da da da da. There's multiple different stuff. But, also, I'm I'll shut up about it after this. But, also, what if this shit got settled quickly? You know? Like, you keep framing as, like, this big fight, but, like, that's not necessarily and I'm not trying I mean, whatever. Do whatever is right for
Speaker 4
you, obviously. I just, like, want you to get some money or something. Fuck. It's just so many different things,
Speaker 3
you know, that were so wrong. But, I mean, there I I obviously, I'm not familiar with your country like I am with mine, but I've I've certainly known, you know, women to get settlements. They don't they don't go far. It's not like the Yeah. It's not like it's not justice. It's not like that. It's it's settlements to get them off Money. Yeah. But, I mean, shit. So when when did you birth your boys? What month was it?
Speaker 4
The eleventh of, February. Okay. Oh,
Speaker 3
yeah. It's still so fresh. Damn, man. Just, like, fucked over by the system two births in a row.
Speaker 4
Yeah. And it's just like we free birth to get out Mhmm. And we just got so deep. But I mean, like, me me and my partner, we're both, like, Aries. We find the humor in it all. You know, we really do come back to just trying to enjoy this life that we have. We both had really similar upbringings of, you know, being, I don't know, like, not we were both really different as teenagers, and we were battling, you know, what our family thought we should be, and we've both seen really dark kinda times. So, yeah, for us, like, we are just so grateful that we have our son, that we have each other, that we have our family. Like, we have so much community support. Like, yeah, like, we really do just turn to that and, like, yeah, it's not easy, of course, but, yeah, we're
Speaker 3
It did not, and it will not break you.
Speaker 4
No. No. I nearly did.
Speaker 3
I bet. Well, obviously, it's one thing to lose your babies, full stop, then it's a whole another thing to experience months of harassment and slander and actual, like, pretty pretty haunting violations
Speaker 4
with the coroner. Yeah. Yeah. That process, it was it was actual torture. And I think because of my you know, I never really got to say goodbye to Melvin. So much of me wanted to be able to see him again. And by the time that they got back to our death, still love, the coroner called us and said, I'm highly advising you not to see them because of the state that they are in. And I wanna give, like, Hailey from Paperbark a little shout out, our death doula. She was just absolutely incredible. You know, she wrapped them so lovingly and had them in this cocoon of flowers. And I walked in to that space and it was just like, oh, like, this is what it's meant to be. Like, I thought I was gonna go in and be a blubbering mess, but I was actually just like, oh, I can finally peacefully, like, give my children one more physical goodbye. And when I was standing in that space holding them and, you know, saying my last goodbyes, it was almost like I could feel them, like, snickering at me or laughing at me and being like, mom, like, we're not there.
Speaker 3
So, yeah, you were saying I mean, I would love to hear you just kind of close with this with this funeral service that you all had because I'm also thinking about I mean, you said it was six how many days that you got their bodies back? Like, how how did that all go seeing them, and were they totally wrapped up?
Speaker 4
Yeah. They were completely cocooned, so we couldn't see any part of their skin. Okay. And Hailey Hailey said, like she was like, you know, they've they've been through a lot, and she was like she said she was like she goes, I keep going like, then she said their spirit is almost like they're not babies. She's like, they're like wise old men. She was like, yeah, and she just wrapped them so lovingly. They were in this cocoon of flowers, and just that last moment was so how it's meant to be. It's not meant to be it it's not meant to be medical. It's sacred. It's supposed to be, like, honored and revered and beautiful. So, yeah, we're so grateful to have that in the final final moments. And, yeah, we had them cremated and sent home with us, and, yeah, that kind of wrapped up all of their kind of, like, physicalness. We got the placenta back, which was an also an absolute shit fight to get it back, And, yeah, buried it in the backyard and had a fire over the ground and then planted a tree. So I've really sealed them in the earth. Yeah. And my placenta was like it was like a world. It was huge. So, yeah, it felt so good to finally have that back, although it was frozen and, like, wrapped in plastic and yeah. Still, to get it back, you know, was such a struggle. They really didn't wanna give it back. No.
Speaker 3
I'm proud of you, sister.
Speaker 4
Thank you. And thank you for, you know, doing what you do. Honestly, I wouldn't have yeah. I don't know if free birth would be what it is without you. So, yeah, thank you for just trailblazing.
Speaker 3
We get to meet someday.
Speaker 4
Likewise. Yeah. Come to Australia.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I think I think well, I'll say it like you guys. I reckon I will. I hope you enjoyed the show today. You can support this podcast by donating to it through the link in the show notes below and, of course, leaving an awesome review on whatever platform you listen on. The more reviews, the more visibility the show gets, so let's spread the good word of sovereign birth. Don't forget, you can watch our podcast interviews on YouTube and see the women as they tell their birth and power stories. And you'll also find our viral free birth collection of epic raw birth videos on our YouTube. Make sure you're subscribed to our channel. We've always got a lot going on at Free Birth Society, and you can find out all about it at free birth society dot com, at free birth society on Instagram, and opt in to my newsletter below. We offer courses on free birth, authentic midwifery, the blood mysteries, mysteries, as well as one on one coaching, in person retreats, and, of course, our annual women's gathering, the Matriarch Rising Festival. Our exclusive private vetted membership, The Lighthouse,
Speaker 4
is definitely something to check out if you're looking for a community
Speaker 3
of wise sisters, something to check out if you're looking for a community of wise sisters to get guidance from and to meet in real life. Together, we rise sisters. We must speak our stories, fully claim our lives and support one another. This is the living revolution and I am so grateful to be in it with all of you. I'll leave you with our gorgeous Free Birth Society theme song, Wild Woman by Aruba Red.
Speaker 2
I honor you for the wisdom you held, the ancient traditions of plant medicine and womb magic. Magic. I feel the spirit of the ancestors as I place my hands upon my belly. This sacred portal will be honored. Eons upon light beams of survival, withstanding the eradication of our power by design. I will not allow the separation of our young to be forced upon me. My sisters will no longer birth in captivity. The picket line redefined from burning our wild women to paralyzing us and drugging our babes. Strapped down in a clinical white bed, drying up the milk from our breasts, keep your needles. My family will never again be doomed to chase those dragons all your poison. We reject your fear. We choose love. Everything with intention, death, ascension. I will fly and bring her back from the star. Wild woman, she still lives inside. Wild woman, from you, I will not hide.
