Speaker 0
Into the wild, I'm going into the wild, I am. It's been a wild, freedom child since I left my roots back home. Into the wild I'm good. Into the wild I am. It's been a wild freedom child since I left my roots back home.
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Free Birth Society podcast. This is a radical space for women who are ready to celebrate their autonomous choices in birth, motherhood, and beyond. Together, we'll learn about wild birth through personal narrative, we'll explore the politics of birth, and we'll analyze everything that relates to our lives as women from a feminist perspective. Here's your host, Emilee Saldaya. It's
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been a wild
Speaker 2
freedom check
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since I've left my rules back home.
Speaker 3
Today's gonna be a little bit of a pivot from our normal free birth stories. Today, we're going to be tackling, a really intense subject, a really important subject. We're going to be talking about loss in a sovereign birth context and to some degree how it interacts with, the system. My intention of having doctor Ivy on is to help shine some light in some areas of ignorance. I think for most people, when loss does occur, you know, most of the time, I think the story goes understandably that families are quite, sideswiped, you know, quite shocked, of course, a very natural response to unexpected loss. And when there is no provider there, I want you all considering, you know, this path to to feel armored with some information and education, to help support you having a death plan, if you will. You know, it's something no one wants to plan for, and yet, I I think and arguably, when you have some level of preparation for this, it can go smoother. It can be slower. It can be more integrated, and and I want that, you know, for any for any family that is going to face this tragic outcome. K. So that's the intention of this. We're gonna cover a lot of ground. Doctor Ivy, why don't you give us a quick little intro about who you are in this world?
Speaker 4
Okay. Well, I'm a clinical psychologist. I specialize in, the full spectrum of maternal mental health, and I'm a hypnotherapist, a Reiki healer, a deaf midwife, a funeral director. I teach, trauma informed mindfulness and also specialize in parenting and child development and anxiety and trauma, obviously. So many different hats that I wear. I have medical staff privileges at Providence St. John's Hospital here in Santa Monica in Los Angeles, but also am known at all the hospitals if there's a fetal demise. I, am on call for that. Work with a lot of, OBGYNs and maternal fetal medicine doctors here and doulas and midwives as well. So, yes, many different areas of specialty. I've been doing this for twenty five plus years, and I my goal is to bring healing and relief and ease in the suffering and shock and trauma and disbelief to what I believe is one of the worst losses a human being can have in their lifetime.
Speaker 3
I first found out about your work back in my LA doula days because I I knew you to be a funeral director as you named, and I learned in my own bereavement work in the birth world in Los Angeles, I came to understand that when a baby dies, in the hospital that it wasn't legal for the parent to travel with the body if they wanted to have a home funeral, if they wanted to bring the body home. And, in fact, legally, a licensed funeral director needed to be the one transporting that baby, or any dead body.
Speaker 4
Well, releasing, actually. I'm sorry to interrupt. You it's it's important. That's why I became a funeral director.
Speaker 2
Because
Speaker 4
that way I could be a liaison in a hospital setting or even a home setting to, offer the parents a home funeral or to take the body home and just be with it for up to eight days and how to take care of the body. Nothing terrible is gonna happen to the body. People are always so scared to handle death, and there's nothing scary about it.
Speaker 3
No one just knows anything about it. Yeah. You know, when do we handle bodies?
Speaker 4
Right. Right. Well, we used to historically bury our own dead in this country. Yeah. We'd lay our loved ones on a, you know, the dining room table and dig a hole in the backyard. So, then the funeral industry, which is a business, came in and said, oh, no. We need to regulate, death. And, so then you know, and also we look at our culture and how death is portrayed in our culture, and it's a scary thing. And, you know, as soon as a loved one dies, I'm talking about an older person now, it's like, oh, no. Quickly call someone. Like, quick. Quick. Quick. And there's nothing to there's no fire. Like, no one needs there's no rush. There's no rush. This is someone you loved and, knew for years. And why would you just hand them off to a stranger? It's a very interesting thing if you start to really think about it. Yeah. And same with the same with an infant, a baby. You know? This woman has intimately gotten to know her infant, in utero, has nurtured and grown and embodied this baby. And there's a lot of fear and anxiety and, around what you know, if they're told so my big thing, my soapbox, is the more you can prepare women and their families and loved ones around them for what they're gonna possibly see, what they're gonna experience, what you know, any, answer any questions they might have, which they may not be able to think because, you know, your frontal cortex leaves the room, as I say. You can help mitigate PTSD. There's always gonna be PTSD around this type of event, but you can absolutely mitigate all the, the freeze and the fear and the, the unknowns. A lot of people don't wanna see their baby. They're afraid to look. They don't wanna hold them, then they regret it. They don't wanna take a photo, then they regret it. They don't want footprints, then they regret it. So it's important to really educate, and I'm glad you're having me on this podcast. Thank you. To let people know there are resources now. In fact, when when I started doing this work when you met me, it was really new. A lot of people weren't adding this into their resume, so to speak. They weren't adding death doula or death midwife or, understanding even the rights, the legal rights women have. State and federal law trump hospital policy. Even if there's not a funeral director, everyone, you have every right to walk out of the hospital with that baby.
Speaker 3
Okay.
Speaker 4
You will not be arrested.
Speaker 3
No. You will not be arrested. The hospital tells you because I've been in the room when this has occurred, you cannot legally take your baby out of here. It has to be a licensed funeral director.
Speaker 4
Not true. They they just want a clear handoff so they can kinda brush their hands and say, okay. We are not responsible for this body anymore. The funeral director and funeral home are not responsible.
Speaker 3
So you're saying it's a hospital policy, not a federal law. Correct. Okay. That's interesting. I didn't know that. I I did think it was a law in terms of transporting. So you became a funeral director to be a liaison for that handoff just because of hospital policy.
Speaker 4
Hospital policy and because they intimidate and don't tell you the truth. They're not telling you the truth. Shocker. In fact, they only offer women and their families, partners, two options, cremation or burial. They don't say or home funeral. Yeah. They just don't. Mhmm. And it's so sad because when I have done home funerals or if I I've seen families and women have more time with their deceased baby at home, it helps so much with with their nervous system and the trauma and being able to hold or touch or
Speaker 3
Of course.
Speaker 4
Take care of and mother and father.
Speaker 3
I mean, the their baby. This is one of the long list, you know, of reasons of why many women choose free birth. If if I if I were to birth a baby who is not alive, you know, sister Morningstar, my elder, asks asks this question. So I wanna credit her here. She asks the question, if your baby were to die, where would you want to be? And
Speaker 4
I just got chills.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I've always felt really motivated by by that question and inspired by that question. Obviously, the counterargument is the belief that if you were in the hospital, there would somehow be, more support for life, which, is is actually not true in the vast majority of cases. But this idea, it's really a spiritual question. You know? Where would you want to be? And and to to think on that, you know, obviously for women listening to this podcast and myself very much included, I would want to be home. And and one of the reasons, for that that's so obvious, which is what you're pointing to, is time. Is that I would get all the time that I would require, and then not just me, that my children would require to know this baby, to meet this baby. Yes. And you don't get time in the hospital. That's
Speaker 2
not
Speaker 3
to say there aren't stories of women staying with their stillborns in a hospital room. There are those stories, of course. I've heard of several days actually in some hospitals, but it's so interrupted. It's so not intimate. It's like this manufactured experience inside this pretty bizarre setup. It's incredibly different. Yeah.
Speaker 4
Yeah. You know?
Speaker 3
There's no denying that. So so let's let's start there because this is a a free birth podcast. You know, the women listening to this podcast are listening to this to learn how to do this. And so I wanna get into in the context of a woman birthing alone in her home, family. I don't mean alone alone. Just, like, outside of the purview of any of provider, anyone tied to the system. Should she, Bertha Stillborn, what are the, if any, you know, what are the actual laws as best as you could portray them? We're gonna focus on America because that's where you and I both live, around reporting and also around, I don't know the the correct, like, politically correct word here, around removal, disposal. I don't know the right word for eventually dealing with the body. What are the actual laws or rules here?
Speaker 4
Okay. If you have oh, so I just wanna also add in there. If if if the if you have a miscarriage or, anything before twenty weeks, you can do anything you want. You can Yeah. You know, do whatever you want.
Speaker 3
And And you don't need a death certificate
Speaker 4
preprint. Correct. Or call anybody or Yeah. Anything. Post twenty weeks, anything twenty weeks gestational, that's when the laws come in or the regulations. So I'm gonna speak to California because that's where I live. But you can always go on the department of consumer affairs funeral bureau. I think it's funeral and cemetery bureau, and specifically look up fetal death. They actually have a special category for fetal death. If you have a stillbirth at home, so you can keep your baby home for up to eight days. Keep it they keep the body cool. You put ice packs typically behind the neck and on their back, and then put keep the body in the coolest room in the house. And then you're gonna see some fluid, you are, out of the ears and the nose and the eyes. The lips will turn really red. Sometimes there's blood that comes out of the nose. You know, just wipe it off. It's no big deal. Depending how long the baby has been deceased, in utero, that will that will determine how the baby looks. The longer it's been deceased in utero, the more bloated it's gonna be. It's still okay to keep at home. The some women don't know I mean, some literally have the baby, and then it's dead it they birth a dead baby. They don't even they there was a heartbeat, and then there wasn't. That does happen. Mhmm. So those babies are gonna look the best, obviously. If you wanna keep the baby home for more than eight days, go ahead. All you do is tell the coroner that you were so distraught, you just couldn't make the call. That's all I have to say. There's no it's not a crime.
Speaker 2
It's It's not crying.
Speaker 3
Think there's any concern there, and I'm just making this up. I've never heard of this happening. But do you think there's any concern around the optics of that? You know, I feel fairly protective around free birthing families, the optics of how that can look, medical neglect, concealing a dead body, like, the kind of potential optics when you're already birthing without, you know, not the right way, the the mainstream, you know, allowed way.
Speaker 4
I think, you know, it's such an intimate personal experience that I you have to let that go because you're not committing a crime.
Speaker 3
Okay.
Speaker 4
The baby was born dead. You are in shock, understandably. You want you love this baby. You don't wanna let go of the baby. Women have a very hard time letting go of babies even if they're dead. You know? It's just like Of course. And then they sit there and think of the baby in a morgue, or they Yeah. Think of it in the refrigerator or you know, it's it's very disturbing. Yeah. So I I I would say to those women, please don't think about optics. Think about what you need, because it is the last time you are gonna be able to spend time with this baby, privately and in in a loving way. A lot of people, you know, it's important to maybe bathe the baby, diaper the baby, rock the baby, sing to the baby, read it a baby story or books you know, read books, play music. For some women, this is not their first baby. I think I told you before the podcast that I got a call from a family, an unintended birth. They had three other kids. They kept the the it was a shock that the she didn't have a midwife. Nothing. She just went for it herself, and kept the body for twelve days. I got a call. They asked if they could bury it in the backyard, And I said, no. I'm so sorry. You you can't bury
Speaker 3
People really don't know that.
Speaker 4
A full term baby in the backyard.
Speaker 3
No. He he asked me the same the same thing. You know? They're they're the family I I sent.
Speaker 2
Oh, okay.
Speaker 4
That yeah. That's just okay. I mean, his
Speaker 3
plan in a city was to just yeah. So let's touch on that as well because eight days is is awesome, actually. That's that's really good information to know. I understand you're you're not saying that's necessarily nationwide, but that is a really long time. I've never walked this path personally, but I've supported many women who have, and that's a long time,
Speaker 2
you know,
Speaker 3
to spend. And, also, the body decomposes. You know? The body the body
Speaker 4
Not much not much, actually.
Speaker 3
Keep it really cold.
Speaker 4
Typically, though, three days is what Yeah. We we recommend. Three days. Yeah. But, yes, yes, you're starting to
Speaker 3
I mean, I've seen some mostly in the hospital, but after two, three days, it's starts to get
Speaker 4
Yeah. I understand. Look pretty. Yeah. The blood is pooling and
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 4
Yeah. They're pretty yeah. I understand.
Speaker 3
Which then it's like having the image of that, understandably, might not be something that the mother the mother wants. But in my experience, you have way more. But in my experience, I feel like women usually feel pretty complete if they've had a couple days as complete. I say that really sensitively, like, as complete as someone could possibly feel in this really crazy situation. But okay. So let's so so eight days, that's so helpful to know that because and and maybe you've already heard of this situation, but something that I know happens in the free birth world, unfortunately, is, stillborn is born, and the knee jerk reaction is to call nine one one.
Speaker 4
K.
Speaker 3
Now I don't totally understand why other than I think it's a, it's kind of a desperate, like, maybe there's something they can do. You know? Maybe we're misunderstanding the situation or something. Right. Now the huge, you know, obvious problem with this is you can't reverse dead. And as soon as you call nine one one and bring nine men in uniform and police and EMTs into your living room while your placenta is still inside you, it's not it like, there's no reality where that is supportive to the next phase of what's about to of what needs to happen, not just connecting and processing with your baby, but you still have to release your placenta, which is a very real thing. You know? And so this is this is part of why I really wanna do this episode because I want women who are going to choose this path and birth workers who are going to support women birthing in a sovereign way. Right. If if the baby is gone, the baby is gone. And one of the the greatest gifts you can give to that room and to that family is to remind them that they have time. There isn't anything to do, assuming mom's okay, obviously, assuming mom is physically okay. Right. Just see no reason why why she wouldn't be. Time is everything. And so many bereaved mothers have told me about their regret in free birth situations of their just deep regret of rushing.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3
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Speaker 4
Well, your adrenaline's pumping. Totally. You're you're you're in shock. You're just trying to save maybe the baby. You know? You're trying to think of like you said, like, can can we Yeah. Save this baby? So I think there's a lot of like, everything is just so surreal that the the sense of reality just gets warped. And
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 4
Like I said earlier, when you're in shock and trauma, you can't think clearly. Yeah. It's very difficult to make decisions, especially with unattended births or not having midwives or doulas there who can shepherd and kind of say, listen. There's no rush. I'm so sorry your baby is deceased. There is no way to resuscitate, and it's really important you spend time. So if if someone could just really bring home that message in that moment, that would be great.
Speaker 3
This is again, it's you know, I said at the very beginning, it's a it's a it's a bizarre thing, you know, that no one wants to talk about or plan for, but you do need a death plan. You know? If you're if you're birthing in a sovereign way obviously, if you're choosing, the hospital or medical providers, like, they kinda handle it. You know? They kinda, like, lead it, for better or worse. Sometimes it's handled really beautifully and and gracefully, and other times it isn't. But if you're doing it in a sovereign way, there is no other leaders, and and this this will only serve you. Like, God forbid it happens. And I also wanna get across that that fetal demise is not rare. No. You know? And people don't, I feel like, really get that because it's so separated from the rest of our culture, and no one really is connected to birth or death and all of that. But but it it's not rare. It's not rare in the free birth world. It's not rare in the normal mainstream, you know, hospital setup. It's natural death is occurring at all stages of life, and it's just it it's I don't know if would you I don't know if I'd say common. I don't know what would define it as common, but it's definitely not rare or uncommon.
Speaker 4
It's not uncommon, sadly. SIDS is more uncommon. We talk about SIDS much more than we talk about stillbirth. SIDS is, I think it's one and, like, like, twenty five hundred babies, and then stillbirth is one and a hundred and twenty or a hundred and seventy now. I mean, it it's some it's huge difference.
Speaker 3
So the point is it's not to freak you, you know, listeners out. It's just I wanna really, like, normalize the truth about this because what I what what break one of the aspects of this that breaks my heart is how unprepared people are because they've never even tried this on. And and in a way, you know, I do think sovereign birthing parents are more prepared. They do try this on because there isn't anyone to outsource to. You know? Women having wild pregnancies kinda have to contend with the reality of not knowing in a way that you don't have to if you're getting ultrasounds every three seconds. But but still, the there's so much ignorance around what to actually do in this situation.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Speaker 3
And so they just you know, people just knee jerk involve the system because they think they have to. So so let's just touch back on burial. So pre twenty weeks, do whatever you want. No paperwork. No you know, the system is not required to be involved. After twenty weeks, it is considered alive or sorry. It is considered a real baby, and it requires a death certificate. And so burial cannot happen in your own way. It needs to be, you know, properly, handled, which I mean, like, through the system. So will you speak to that a little bit about what a woman's options would be there and, like, what are, like, short options that you see?
Speaker 4
The best option is to get your OB GYN involved so then you don't have to go through a corner.
Speaker 3
Okay. Let's talk about that. So what about if you don't have one because you're free birthing? Then you have
Speaker 4
to go through a corner, and, an autopsy is required, sadly, because, any baby that's born deceased and or dies under a year, the coroner will is mandated to perform an autopsy to make sure there was no foul play, sadly. So
Speaker 3
Though, there are waivers. Every every woman I have served in California has been able to get out of the autopsy. Great. And that just for everyone outside of California, that's not actually true in every state, which is interesting.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Speaker 3
We just had a bereaved mother on a community call recently who said she actually wanted it, and she was, she was discouraged. The coroner said there there's no point to do that. You don't wanna do it, which I was like, woah.
Speaker 4
That was great.
Speaker 3
Yeah. That's not normally what I hear.
Speaker 4
Much nicer, obviously, to go that way.
Speaker 3
So in in your experience, have you also seen that? Is it is it pretty hard to get out of autopsies? Is that I guess you probably are are mostly seen tell me more about this OB GYN things. That's a really interesting angle. And could it be any physician?
Speaker 4
If you can get attend any yeah. It can be any attending physician that will attest within fifteen hours, though. This is now that, cause of death and sign a piece of paper, you can avoid the coroner system. In the straight to a funeral director.
Speaker 3
So how would that look in a home birth? Let's just say the family had an ally in that way, had an attending physician. Baby is born still. They would call that attending physician. That attending physician would come to the home, I'm assuming, to to to give you a piece of paper. Is it Well, no.
Speaker 4
They actually would probably come to examine the baby. Mhmm. And then they have to attest on a piece of paper time of death, cause of death, and then they submit that paper to the hospital Okay. That they have privileges at.
Speaker 3
Okay. Interesting. Or or they
Speaker 4
can give it to the the funeral director that they that this family has chosen.
Speaker 3
Okay. And so in that case, is it true that that family could avoid the the police? Yes. Yes. Oh, that's so good.
Speaker 4
Then you don't get your home as a crime scene.
Speaker 3
Right.
Speaker 4
Which is an I mean, that's just another huge trauma. Huge. It's unavoidable.
Speaker 3
The stuff that happens. I mean
Speaker 4
It's so sad.
Speaker 3
Some of the stuff that happens to free birth families in particular, you know, tearing apart apart their homes, looking in their phones, you know, threatening really, really gnarly charges. I've never seen anything actually, like, move forward, but but but that alone is
Speaker 4
Did you see that in California? No. Yeah. I they don't do that in California. They but they do separate the parents from the baby and don't let them near the baby while they examine. It's really awful. Just they're they they they treat the family like criminals until Of course.
Speaker 3
Yeah. But they proven otherwise.
Speaker 4
They don't tear apart the fam the house. So, I mean, I haven't seen that happen, if that makes
Speaker 3
sense. It's a whole another can of worms if the baby was born alive and then died.
Speaker 4
Absolutely.
Speaker 3
That's a very different conversation
Speaker 4
Yes.
Speaker 3
That has potentially way more legal ramifications Mhmm. To the parents under the guise of medical neglect. And that's that's to be taken, you know, very seriously how you choose to share that information with whoever you involve because that's extremely different than my baby was was born sleeping.
Speaker 4
Right.
Speaker 3
Okay. So the least dramatic way and the most sovereign way in a way, in the least dramatic way, would be to somehow have an attending physician ally Yeah. Who is willing to play this role, which sounds pretty special. I know they exist. I've heard of them.
Speaker 4
I see.
Speaker 3
And this is where where I would really look to the birth workers, you know, in in communities to find who those people are, not to the families. You know? That's
Speaker 4
I would definitely have someone on standby or someone you've, can they can consider you a patient. You've had established a patient relationship even if you don't use them for the birth.
Speaker 3
So is it is it is that that's what I was gonna ask. So do they have to be an established patient? Yeah. Okay. That's kind of a problem then.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Speaker 2
That's It
Speaker 4
could be one, you know, one time exam. That's it. Yeah. And you never and you never go back.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I'm thinking of one woman I know who does this, but but I think she establishes at the time of coming to the home. Oh, that's nice. Not in California.
Speaker 4
Yeah. That's nice. So Yeah. Oh, go ahead. It's a it's state by state. It's state by state. And I've noticed that Idaho and, like, even the Carolinas can be rougher, on these situations than a California.
Speaker 3
So the best case options is if you have a physician ally like that who's willing to do this, then they can deal directly with the funeral director of where Yes. The baby's going to go, and and the baby has to go. Right? That that At
Speaker 4
some point. To be made clear.
Speaker 3
At some point. Yeah. Yeah. And then the options from there, we I would love for you to speak about what a home funeral can be and and what that would look like. I think that's something that people are very interested in, and there's just not a ton of resources about that.
Speaker 4
Yeah. So you, obviously, invite friends and family to come. You can have if you're religious, you can have, someone that you know, a priest or a rabbi or whomever can come and also offer words of love and support to the to everyone that is attending. Or I, as a funeral or as a funeral director, midwife or deaf midwife, can I can or I can do that? I can get stories from the mom, stories from the dad, and kinda interweave something beautifully, you know, something to say beautifully, to everyone attending and add poems or anything special to them that or, you know, that would be meaningful. It's also I meant to preface that with all it's very important to name your baby. Yeah. It's very important. Maybe not the name you would have given it. It's if if you wanna try again or you hope to try again and have another baby, or give it its given name that you were were hoping to use. But it's important to name the baby and, hopefully, a name that you wouldn't hear every day so you're not triggered. A lot of people pick, like, Hawaiian names or something in a different language or maybe something they called the baby in utero that was cute, like, little bean or something. Nothing that's gonna trigger you to hear the name Sarah or whatever, for example. But it's very important to name your baby and honor your baby that way. So then so you have friends, family. You have, someone come speak. It could be even me and and their priest and rabbi. You know? It can be that. There's so many beautiful ways to symbol give symbols. If you do it outside, obviously, lots of flowers, and, you could do a butterfly release or ladybugs. You could have people write personal notes to the family and or this baby and tie the notes into a tree, and make the tree, like, this sacred area for people to share their thoughts and feelings.
Speaker 3
And this is all happening within that eight days. Right? Because then the body has to
Speaker 4
Well, hopefully, three to four days with
Speaker 2
Okay. The
Speaker 4
home funeral. It can but, again, up to eight days. Sure. Up to eight days. And the music is important. And
Speaker 3
That's just, like, a lot to wrap your head around in three days. Wow.
Speaker 4
But as a deaf midwife, I've got it down.
Speaker 3
Oh, totally. I just mean for the parents to even, like yeah. They would just need to know it's an option, step one. Right? And then it's like, this is our chance. This is Yeah. Yeah. It's just wow. It's a lot.
Speaker 4
There is I've never had an experience where anyone regretted it.
Speaker 3
No. No. Of course not. Quite quite the opposite. Right? I mean, so many women, they move so fast through this, and then their baby's gone, and there's there's nothing to commemorate this, and it's like grasping at at air then. Yeah. I mean, it's totally. The ritual is so important.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Ritual is huge. Ritual helps put order in chaos. Right. So any that's why we have funerals, typically, so that people can come together as a community and support the parents and, honor this baby, that was so loved and cherished and wanted. And it's just a beautiful way to say goodbye. Although there is never really a true goodbye for the family, the parents you know, there is something called continuing bonds and continuing the relationship after death that even though death ends a life, it doesn't end a relationship. That's one of my favorite quotes. And it's true. So there's other ways to honor this baby as you move through your lifetime, because this baby will never be forgotten and can be incorporated as part of your family, in holiday celebrations or, you know, you have death anniversaries, birthday anniversaries, date of death anniversaries, due date anniversaries. You never forget that. You never forget that. Whether What
Speaker 3
are some beautiful ways that you've seen families keep ongoing with those relationships?
Speaker 4
You know, setting, I just had a family, like, light a candle and put a picture of their baby on the Thanksgiving table, get an ornament for the tree, hang a stocking with their name on it anyway. Some people still put a little present under the tree. They go sit in the nursery and, remember their baby and just feel like that's time to connect. There's so many, I mean, there's so many
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 4
So many ways. There's lots of ritual. But, usually, you know, if they live on land where they have a backyard, usually, it's, planting a tree in their honor, or a bank or giving back to the community in some way for women that have gone through this or families that have gone through this.
Speaker 3
So after the home funeral, the two options, as I understand it, is cremation or burial. Mhmm. Is it true with burial with a with a stillborn like this, would they still have to be embalmed in the whole
Speaker 4
show? No. No. No.
Speaker 3
Okay. Will you
Speaker 4
Not at all.
Speaker 3
We speak about that a little bit, and what do you see families choose? And anything to say about that?
Speaker 4
They do not choose embalming. That's super rare. Very rare. For stillborns. Yeah. For stillborns.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Okay. I didn't know if it was a law or not because for No. Older bodies, that's just standard.
Speaker 4
It's not a law.
Speaker 2
No. It's not a law.
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's an option.
Speaker 4
Okay. All embalming is an option.
Speaker 3
Okay. Cool. I didn't know that. It's not a law. Because I know that, Jewish people don't embalm No. As a part of their culture.
Speaker 4
Absolutely not.
Speaker 3
Okay. So it's it's an option. And so what is it like for burial of a baby? And it would obviously need to be in a cemetery. What do you see people choose, and is there anything I'm I'm missing there?
Speaker 4
If they have a full funeral, they usually bring the baby in in a basket. It's usually in a, like, a really pretty not a coffin. A basket is their kinda what they're buried in. Some people do a private viewing before the the ritual or the service, and some don't. Some just bring in the the basket, and it's decorated usually with flowers and whatnot. And and then everyone goes, graveside and, can witness the burial if they wanna stay. What's what's sad about that, though, is the cemeteries, like, push everyone away and back. They don't let you stand close. So it can be very impersonal, just to let everyone know, you know, because it's it's not what you see in a movie. Let's put it that way. Or Jewish cemeteries are different, obviously. You can you're standing there. You could throw dirt in there. You can you know, you get to throw flowers or dirt and all that. But in the actual basket, I have parents, put letters, love letters in there, goodbye letters. They can obviously dress the baby how they want, wrap the baby in a blanket, bury it with anything that was significant, to them during the pregnancy. Cremation, you can burn letters. Nothing you can't have anything metal, but you can have them be wrapped again in a blanket or an outfit that you want. And, again, the letters are very important, if you if you choose cremation too. The thing that's important to know about cremation is that some funeral homes will or crematoriums will mail the ashes to you, which is seems impersonal. A lot of families will go pick up the ashes, and it's a big moment. Don't it's not it's it's a big emotional moment to go pick up your baby's ashes.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 4
It's very nice to have a funeral director who will personally pick up the ashes for you and bring it to your home. I think that's the nicest way to do it. You get
Speaker 3
the because mom is still, like, pretty early postpartum.
Speaker 4
Absolutely. And then they come in a box, and they come in a baggy with a twisty tie. They don't come in something nice.
Speaker 0
Yeah.
Speaker 2
You have
Speaker 3
to buy that. Right?
Speaker 4
Yeah. So I always kind of forewarn families, like, look. It's not gonna come in some pretty little box or or urn even. So just to know how it comes and that, and then there's no rush with the ashes. That's another thing that's so important. Some families feel like they need to do something quickly with the ashes, and it's like, no. No. No. You can keep the ashes as you know? You you never have to disperse the ashes, or you can turn it into memorial jewelry. There's not gonna be a lot of ash. You can turn it into memorial jewelry. You can take a trip and disperse some of it in Hawaii, for example. You know, there's so many things obviously with cremeins that you can do. Some people put them in a teddy bear. There's teddy bears that are made for this and stick it on their bed. Wow. But it's important to set up a space a a sacred space, ritual space in your home for this for the for this baby. So, again, maybe a photo of the footprints or if the baby looks pretty good, photo of all all of them together holding the baby, a candle, the ashes, whatever, stuff, little bear, whatever. You know, you get the idea. So little things, seashells, things that meant something to them during the pregnancy.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Is there any other commemoration options that parents might not think of that you've seen that are pretty cool?
Speaker 4
A lot of people get, bereavement tattoos
Speaker 3
with the tattoo ash?
Speaker 4
Yes. They can yeah. They can do the tattoo ash, but a lot of people get memorial tattoos for their babies. They participate in the walk to remember that we have here in California. They let's see what else has been really interesting.
Speaker 3
So much.
Speaker 4
I had a dad that did make a book about his baby and had it bound and everything. It was so beautiful. There's just there's just it's numerous. You look on Etsy. Etsy has amazing ideas for bereavement, options and jewelry and, memorial. Art. Yeah. Art memorial stuff.
Speaker 3
Yeah. So let's pivot for a minute to showing up for families who are in this process. What do you what do you notice is really helpful? You know, what this, you know, this kinda goes without saying. This is a space where I think a lot of people feel very clueless of how to support and because of everyone's, like, enormous discomfort with death and with birth and postpartum, it can often create this perfect storm where the mother is depending on her culture and family dynamic, obviously, this is not a a one size fits all. But often, it's not uncommon for a woman to to be left alone, like, a lot and to be really, not checked on. You know, all of this is also true for postpartum with a live baby. I'm equally as concerned about that. But but what do you what do you have to say about what you've seen work really well or just anything around supporting families navigating this?
Speaker 4
Well, it's really important that the woman isn't left alone. Yeah. I really recommend that highly. If, so if she's partnered with a man, I ask that, you know, what's his paternity leave and, how many weeks can he stay home with her, and then who else can we get to come in? So if the family obviously, the best scenario is when families are close and they have family members that live close by or family members willing to travel and come stay for a few weeks. Those are ideal scenarios. There are scenarios where they just don't have family members nearby. So it's a little more of a struggle to get that company to come over. It's about then, okay, what can we plan in her day structurally, so that the hours that she's alone, you know, she can reach her husband partner, during the day if she needs them, that the partner understands that it's important to check-in with her as well during the day. And then what can we get her to do? Can we get her to go for a walk? Can we get her to meet a friend for coffee or tea? Can you know? How can we add some sort of structure in the day so that she's just not left to her own thoughts all day. It's it's just, the worst to have that happen. Friends and family mean well. As you know, they can say some things that are very insensitive, dismissive, minimizing, and just not helpful, frankly. So, oh, a friend that can set up a meal train. That's really important so they don't have to think about food. That is definitely something important to do.
Speaker 3
Also, just to add here that lots of new birth workers are usually quite willing to do bereavement support for free, out of the goodness of their heart, for experience, all of that. So Mhmm. If you are someone supporting a family, like, check-in on the local doula Facebook groups or something like that. Ask a birth worker to help you find one or two women because I've never not been able to find women willing to donate postpartum hours in these situations.
Speaker 4
That's wonderful. Yeah. So it's about making sure she's, you know, maybe listening to a guided meditation, that is not triggering, that's short. Eyes open. Don't close your eyes in meditation after trauma.
Speaker 3
Wait. Why? I've never heard that.
Speaker 4
Because, often the brain doesn't like the eyes closed because it it's, it doesn't feel holding with it's not, like, supportive. It's feels amorphous. It feels like nothing's really, holding you together that you need you need to just softly gaze at a candle or
Speaker 3
Be in the room.
Speaker 4
Some inanimate object.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 4
It's better to leave your eyes open. It can when your eyes are open, you're able to be more present. And when you're in trauma, you're not present. Okay. You're just not you're just not there. There's certain breath work that I teach that it's trauma informed. So a lot of people are told to just breathe and relax if they feel tense or anxious or even having a panic attack. And the that's terrible advice. The best thing you can do is, actually, you need to tense and breathe. So tightening your hands, putting your arms against your body, tightening your butt and thighs as you breathe in through the nose, and you hold it forever or count to ten, eight, whatever feels okay. And then you slowly release through the mouth. And as you release through the mouth, you release the tension in the body. And you do that at least eight to ten times. You can also push up against a wall. Pushing up against something firm and hard reminds your body that you are in a you are contained, and it it's calming to your nervous system. Laying on the floor, having a partner hold you from behind and give you a nice firm hug is usually very grounding and very, feels very supportive for the nervous system.
Speaker 3
I've heard a lot of mothers who've lost their babies share similar sentiments around really struggling to desire to stay, you know, really wanting to go be with their babies
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
Out, you know, wherever their babies went.
Speaker 4
Are you you mean they wanna die? Or they okay.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Just
Speaker 4
wanna be I just wanted to clarify.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 3
And I'm I'm sharing that here because, you know, part of this not leaving her alone is, like, it gets it can get real, real dark.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
And most people do not have the skill set or maturity or awareness to meet a woman in that level of darkness. But I I think a lot of women that are listening to this podcast probably do or can. And so, you know, this this idea of not leaving her alone and and taking some leadership in structuring her day or her activities or her caretaking or whatever, you know, and also yeah. Just just just the the potential of meeting her and holding her in her darkness because most women, I think, are really, like you said, they're if they let any of that that that out, it's very minimized. It's very, like, oh, honey. Of course, it's not your fault. Like, just very quick. Just like, no. We actually need to turn over every stone. She needs a lot of space, to to process and to go into all the weird angles and stuff at three AM that she's, you know, trying on. And and, undeniably, when we're able to do that with her in a loving, mature way, it will become less obsessive. It will become more integrated because that's what being witnessed does. You know? That that's that's a really important part of navigating grief. And otherwise, the you know, so many women, they they're alone, and they're tripping, and they're blaming themselves, and it gets real dark. And there isn't anyone to orient them or even just witness them. So I feel very strongly about that, and it it plays into all the tips you just said around containment, you know, that that from us on the outside, there's a different kind of containment we can offer. Yeah. Because it it is something to know. I think a lot of women won't tell their friends that they're thinking about committing suicide, that they're thinking about, what would it be like if I just wasn't here or that or spending time not wanting to be here. And Mhmm. On a spirit in a spiritual way, I think that that makes sense to to try that on or to have some like, we wanna be with our babies. We're designed to be with our babies, and it doesn't make sense when our babies aren't with us. It just
Speaker 4
doesn't make sense. That's correct. First, I'd like to just normalize and validate that that is also a very normal thought. Right. That if you have that thought, it doesn't mean you're crazy, and it doesn't mean, oh my god. I'm gonna be locked up and put in a psych ward for thinking that I wanna just die and be with my baby. So I'd also like to add, when I hear a woman already has children or a child previous to this loss, I breathe a little bit of sigh relief because Yeah. They're less likely to go harm themselves and go into even a deeper depression because they have to get up. They have to live and and and inter and interact with that that other baby child in their day. And it it it takes them out of their sadness just even for brief moments. Even if we get those few seconds, that's better than nothing. When this is their first baby, it is devastating to say the least, and it is probably the most unfathomable thing one could ever imagine they're going through. They hear it happens. They never think it's gonna be them. And, of course, there's a lot of self blame. They blame their body. They hate themselves. They hate their body. They, they think that, you know, this is all their fault. They were supposed to keep this baby alive. Their body failed. How can I I'm making everyone sad? I disappointed and let down my my partner and my husband. I I didn't bring this baby in alive. I'm creating so much sadness for everyone around me. So there's a so much self blame. And there's, as you said, that hamster wheel at three AM of the woulda, coulda, shoulda, only if, what if, you know, what if I didn't birth at home? What if I hadn't gone forty plus weeks? What if, you know, I had you know, so you're they're just gonna do the blame game, and it's part of putting order in chaos. Mhmm. It's normal. You women, we are wired differently than men. Our brains are just different. When we talk, we release oxytocin, actually. So in trauma, we need to talk. We will talk and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat, and people around us get compassion fatigue. So I often have to tell men and partners, this is a big part of their healing. And when you hear another when you when you hear them have to repeat it again, take a deep breath, move your feet in your shoes, and just be. And hold that space for her and go, I know this is really hard. I know you need to I'm here to hear you. I'm here to be with you. Is there anything I can do to support you right now? Do you need a hug? That is about it. That is about all you can do, and that's a lot, by the way.
Speaker 3
And that's such a good such a good, you know, circling back of, like, it shouldn't only be this male partner who's holding space for her. You know? They they there it is different. It's important, but it's different than what women can
Speaker 4
Right. That's why it's important if they can to find a professional in their area or outside their area, I didn't that specializes in this and can be that other support to hear them where they can talk about their deepest fears and their shame and their embarrassment and their Yeah. The things they think that they shouldn't actually even utter out of their mouths, for for all the fears of being seen as this defective, terrible person.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. So I asked my private membership, if they had any questions
Speaker 2
Oh.
Speaker 3
That they wanted me to make sure I asked you, and maybe we could close with a couple of those.
Speaker 4
Okay.
Speaker 3
This is a pretty big one. But any theories on stillbirth?
Speaker 4
Theories. That's a Yeah. I wish they were a little more specific.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, you know, obviously, I think you and I both know for the vast majority of cases, it's total question mark. It's not clear. It's just conjecture. You know? Is that the right word? It's just kind of guessing. Of course, the brain wants to figure it out. Of course, we wanna know so that you can prevent it, so that you can make sense of it, and and and, you know, please tell me yours. In in my experience, in the vast majority vast majority of fetal demise I've ever been connected to, supported, there was no way we knew what it was. Autopsy or not.
Speaker 4
Right. The placenta tells a story. First of all, I like to say that. So after a stillbirth, it's really important that the there's placental pathology done. It's typically not the baby itself. People think it's the baby. It's not the baby. It's the placenta. Theory? No. Because, I mean, I just ran a support group for couples with stillbirth, and every single one of them had cord compression accidents. There's nothing you can do with about that? No. Nothing. There are cases
Speaker 3
These are families at birth in the system that the baby died close to emergence, most likely.
Speaker 2
No. All
Speaker 4
of them died pre birth. Cord accident.
Speaker 3
And how how how is that not just a guess?
Speaker 4
Because I had Harvey all of them went to Harvey Kleinman, who I refer all my my stillbirth couples or women to. He's a doctor out of Yale University, and he is still the only one in the United States who can help find the answer to what happened to that baby in utero, through the placenta.
Speaker 3
But oh, through the placenta, you're saying?
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
So you're saying that these these mothers sent their placenta to this guy and he to this man, and he somehow could tell Yes. That there was cord compression?
Speaker 4
Yep. Based on the, the capillaries and the way the things the cells show up in the placenta, it tells him it tells the story. Yeah.
Speaker 3
So it'd be just constricted
Speaker 4
Blood flow.
Speaker 3
Blood flow. Yeah. I mean, cord compression is
Speaker 4
trouble. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah. That's gotta be one of the most common.
Speaker 4
So cord accidents happen. They just do. And though there's nothing you can do about it. But it is it absolutely is random at the end of the day, though. It is. You think so? Cord accidents are random. Cord accidents, you can't prevent anything. Even if the MFM sees the court is wrapped or whatever, shortened or whatever. Like, there's nothing they can do.
Speaker 3
Totally. Yeah. Of course. Anything in your
Speaker 4
Except deliver early, that woman would have to be managed. She'd have to she'd she'd have to go in a hospital. But, yeah, I mean, there's nothing other
Speaker 3
than that. But the dangers
Speaker 4
I agree.
Speaker 3
Like, AROMing a woman who's you know, AROM is directly linked to cord prolapse, and you have a baby who's already potentially not not being proactively protective with the cord. Like, there's just no yeah. I mean, I obviously think births in the system are far more dangerous.
Speaker 4
I agree. Yeah. I agree. I hear you.
Speaker 3
We're a lot stronger.
Speaker 4
And I I I am we are totally in agreement on that.
Speaker 3
So, I guess the last thing I'd like to ask you is, would you speak just a little bit about what is a death midwife? I think it's a pretty new concept to most people. And, you know, like, the question that was pitched in the membership was how could anyone find anyone? I know they're not on every corner of our of our neighborhoods. You know? I only know maybe three. And so, you know, what is a death midwife? Is there is there a track for someone interested in learning how to become this? Is there, a way that someone could find them?
Speaker 4
Absolutely. I mean, as you know, I mean, the Internet isn't here. So the you can find deaf midwives probably in your area by searching. I mean, I guess you're actually asking for a full spectrum doula is actually right? The question
Speaker 3
is a deaf midwife, I guess.
Speaker 4
Maybe Someone who well, typically, it's someone who companions someone through their transition to death. Mhmm. In my case, a deaf midwife is someone who comes in and helps the woman understand, like I said in the beginning of the podcast, what what to expect. Yeah. That there's nothing to be scared of, that your your baby's gonna look beautiful and perfect to you. These are the things that might you you know, to expect and to look you you'll you might see, and that holding your baby is something you will cherish forever.
Speaker 3
Oh, meaning that families will find out in the system that their baby's gone and then contact you, and you will coach them prior to birth.
Speaker 4
Yes. Yeah. But I also have come in after, you know, and given them information and, normalized all their emotions and feelings. And I have it written on paper or or even a handout. I think I have one here. What to expect if your baby dies, if you learned your baby has died helping you through the process. So it's a two sided card that I have at the hospitals. And to slow down is, like, huge on here. And just, again, the things I already mentioned to you, you know, that you can request to be put in a quieter room so you don't have to hear other babies being born, on l and d. So ask if there's a quieter place to go to be with your deceased baby. Ask if they have a cold cot. These are things that help keep the baby cool. You can also ask if they keep the baby warm because you're just in the hospital and if if you're not in a hospital. So if you're not in a hospital, then you're going to want to have ice packs, available if you plan to keep your baby home for the eight days. If not, there's no rush to put it on ice. I mean, you can just you can be with your baby for as long as you want. But taking photographs is important. So you may not wanna look at them right away, but you're you'll be glad to have them eventually. So if there's anything else, do skin to skin. As I said, rock, hold, kiss, and cuddle your baby, bathe and diaper your baby, sing and read a book, ask for hand and footprints, lock of hair. And then
Speaker 2
is there
Speaker 4
anything else? Oh, we we didn't talk about breast milk. So a lot of women, do wanna donate breast milk. They feel like at least they can give it to someone else. And, so there's always well, in LA, there's, you know, a network where you can do that, and you don't need to give it to a milk donation site. You can, but you don't have to. And, then there's also ways that it's important to help women suppress it if they don't wanna do that. I wanted to bring up that not to forget that at least in California, you can get something called a certificate of stillbirth. So when a woman has a stillbirth, they get a death certificate, but they don't get a birth certificate. And this is a way to get a birth certificate. So, again, going to the funeral and cemetery bureau, in your state. Hopefully, they offer this. They do in California.
Speaker 3
So there really isn't such thing as a sovereign death. Like, it's not really possible in America.
Speaker 4
And when you say sovereign death, can you tell me a
Speaker 3
little bit? Outside of the system. There's no way. You can't bury a body outside of
Speaker 4
Unless you completely keep it secret.
Speaker 3
Right. Right. Exactly.
Speaker 4
That's the only way to do it. Yeah. Because there's no one like, we don't have to record our pregnancies. You know what I mean? There's no nobody's watching you that closely. So if you wanna have a sovereign death, you can. It's just Illegal. Illegal and secret. Legal and secret.
Speaker 3
You know, I guess maybe the last question I'm thinking about before we wrap is, is around autopsy and just wondering what you would add because I I think that it is not common knowledge that autopsies almost never deliver any information, you know, around cause of death. Autopsies
Speaker 4
typically do not give you any information. They really don't.
Speaker 3
I've I've just known so many women who've done it, you know, understandably, just, like, grasping at eye
Speaker 4
catching something Yes.
Speaker 3
And then nothing.
Speaker 0
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
And then they're so gutted Yep. That they did this, you know, or allowed this to their child's body to render no results. And so, I guess, I just wanted to make sure that was kind of named on here Yeah. That I have seen the system say it's required a lot. And like I said earlier, I've also seen pretty much every family I've ever walked this with get out of it. Yeah. And just is there anything else to add about autopsies? Because that's such a big just heartbreaking part about this whole thing. But if you really don't want one and you find yourself in this situation, I mean, do what you need to do. You know? Like, get a lawyer. Like, figure it out because I I've really seen a lot of success when parents fight back.
Speaker 4
I agree. I agree. It's so
Speaker 3
you know, when when when the system says this is what we're doing, peep most people do not feel empowered to do anything about it, and it's really upsetting. Because in the vast majority of cases where I've seen people fight, they win. They get it figured out. They get what they want.
Speaker 4
Right. But when you're in shock and trauma Oh, of course. You know, it's you're trying to scramble. And if a coroner gets involved, at least in Los Angeles, they they're mandated to do do the autopsy within twenty four hours. So Oh. You know, every city by city, state by state. It's all gonna be different. But I think what we start off with this podcast, which is so important, is a death plan. We have a birth plan, but what if, god forbid, lightning strikes, what's your death plan? And just having a few having a conversation is super important with your midwife or your your doula.
Speaker 3
Or husband.
Speaker 4
Or and or yeah.
Speaker 3
In a free birthing setup, I mean, that was with our second baby. There was we didn't even, like, talk about the birth. You know? We knew how I would do it is how I did it with my daughter, and I think I was thirty seven weeks. And in the middle of the night, I just was like, Johnny. And he was like, yeah. And I was like, we haven't talked about the birth literally at all. And he was like, well, what do we need to talk about? And I said and I thought about it, and I was like, you know, I think the only thing I wanna say is if this baby is not born alive, don't do anything. That's that's really the only thing I can think of that I hadn't said out loud or that he wouldn't just know about me. I mean, he did know that. He was like, yeah. Duh. Of course. Right. And that was it. And I was like, alright. Well, I guess I guess we've said what we need to say about this upcoming birth. You know? But that piece, I've coached so many women in in debriefing their their their stories of the husband or doula knee jerk calling and them being really quite upset, and it really challenging their marriage.
Speaker 4
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. No. Good. This is a really important conversation, and, thank you for having it with me.
Speaker 3
How can women find more about your work?
Speaker 4
Let's see. Instagram, doctor Ivy Margulies. My website, doctor Ivy Love dot com. Love is my middle name. And, you know, I I don't know if you're gonna do show notes, but, you know, I'll put in my, email address and my phone number.
Speaker 3
Awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4
Oh, my honor. Thanks. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3
I hope you enjoyed the show today. You can support this podcast by donating to it through the link in the show notes below and, of course, leaving an awesome review on whatever platform you listen on. The more reviews, the more visibility the show gets, so let's spread the good word of sovereign birth. Don't forget, you can watch our podcast interviews on YouTube YouTube and see the women as they tell their birth and power stories. And you'll also find our viral free birth collection of epic raw birth videos on our YouTube. Make sure you're subscribed to our channel. We've always got a lot going on at Free Birth Society, and you can find out all about it at free birth society dot com, at free birth society on Instagram, and opt in to my newsletter below. We offer courses on free birth, authentic midwifery, the blood mysteries, as well as one on one coaching, in person retreats, and, of course, our annual women's gathering, the Matriarch Rising Festival. Our exclusive private vetted membership, The Lighthouse, is definitely something to check out if you're looking for a community of wise sisters to get guidance from and to meet in real life. Together, we rise sisters. We must speak our stories, fully claim our lives, and support one another. This is the living revolution and I am so grateful to be in it with all of you. I'll leave you with our gorgeous Free Birth Society theme song, Wild Woman by Aruba Red.
Speaker 2
I honor you for the wisdom you held, the ancient traditions of plant medicine and womb magic. Magic. I feel the spirit of the ancestors as I place my hands upon my belly. This sacred court will be honored, eons upon light beams of survival, withstanding the eradication of our power by design. I will not allow the separation of our young to be forced upon me. My sisters will no longer birth in captivity. The picket line redefined from burning our wild women to paralyzing us and drugging out babes. Strapped down in a clinical white bed, drying up the milk from our breasts, keep your needles. My family will never again be doomed to chase those dragons or your poison. We reject your fear. We choose love. Everything with intention. Death, ascension. I will fly and bring her back from the star. Wild woman, she still lives in Sahar. Wild woman, from you, I will not hide.
