00;00;00;03 - 00;00;28;02
Unknown
My whole life, I never really understood the purpose of participating in the system. I had to go back into the system once I figured out that I had thyroid cancer. That hospital experience is really what prompted me to find free birth. Ten years later, so many women are having this epiphany that once they can untangle that birth, doesn't have to be this really scary medical event.
00;00;28;03 - 00;00;53;09
Unknown
Their interest in motherhood blooms. I was sitting with this younger version of myself, having a vision of a ten year old version of myself sitting in the room with me. I was just floating in this spiritual energy. It was electric. I really had a moment of forgiving myself in this birth for having gone through this, a thyroid cancer experience.
00;00;53;09 - 00;00;58;01
Unknown
Just the hardest, best thing I've ever done.
00;00;58;04 - 00;01;34;12
Unknown
By women. Before we dive in today, I need to name something important. This episode, along with all episodes that you will hear until our winter break in mid-December, was recorded before my birth prior to mid-August. Since then, our family has walked through the unimaginable. Our son was stillborn and we are in deep mourning as the shows air, you'll hear and see me pregnant, which now feels incredibly painful and weird.
00;01;34;14 - 00;02;12;08
Unknown
Given that you are holding the sacred knowledge of what came after. So please forgive the dissonance. These stories still deserve to be shared and heard. We welcome your prayers, your loving thoughts, and your support as we navigate this spiral of such deep grief. I hope you find resonance and nourishment in this conversation today. Thank you. Women. If you are ready to take full responsibility for your birth and you're looking for a clear, comprehensive, step by step guide to doing it outside the system, this is it.
00;02;12;08 - 00;02;33;14
Unknown
The Complete Guide to Free Birth is our flagship best selling course, and it has helped thousands of women and families around the world prepare for sovereign, undisturbed berths at home on their own terms. This is the integration of theory and lived wisdom designed to prepare your body, your psyche, your partner and your space for a truly powerful birth.
00;02;33;16 - 00;02;53;14
Unknown
We cover everything from physiology to wild pregnancy, how to rethink complications, what to do postpartum, and everything in between. You don't need to become a midwife. You don't need to be licensed. You just need to be ready to remember what you already know. And this course will walk you through every step. If you're feeling the call, trust it.
00;02;53;15 - 00;02;57;13
Unknown
Go to Free sitcom.
00;02;57;15 - 00;03;23;03
Unknown
To learn more and register today. Your birth, your way in your power. Welcome to free birth society. I'm Emilee Saldaya, and this is where we break the spell of medicalized birth. Remember what's been forgotten and rise together into our birthright to live birth and mother as sovereign women. Welcome, Jocelyn. Awesome. Thank you. It's an honor to be here.
00;03;23;09 - 00;03;56;13
Unknown
Yeah. Excited to hear your story. Just take us from the beginning. All I know is you're in. Tessie. You had a baby outside the medical system. Yeah. Who are you before this first baby. So. Oh, my gosh, I feel like the same person and so many people all at once. But I'll try to start at the very beginning for me, which as a kid, I had almost from the time I can remember, a terrible fear of the medical system, terrible fear of doctors.
00;03;56;14 - 00;04;20;14
Unknown
I was a really sensitive kid. I mean, I still would call myself a sensitive person, and I just I didn't like it. And my whole life, I never really understood, you know, the purpose of participating in the system. But we didn't go that often to the doctor, but we were on the regular vaccine schedule. You know, I'd go in with my brothers and it was always just scary.
00;04;20;14 - 00;04;41;13
Unknown
And then that never really got better. As I got older, it just got harder. So. Which is very odd because so many people in my family are doctors, are nurses, are in the medical system, work in the medical system. So it was kind of hard. I always felt like I was just weird and I just had to get over it.
00;04;41;13 - 00;05;08;26
Unknown
Although as I became an adult, I wanted to back off more and more. But you see a gyno when you were like a young teenager. No, not when I was a teenager. Well, I actually went to one. Not for like a gynecologist exam, but I went to one before I went to college, just for college physical, and ended up getting the round of garbage cell shots and the whole thing.
00;05;08;27 - 00;05;40;07
Unknown
Yeah, I have some theories about that. But yeah, I was like, oh, that was awful. And then honestly, I didn't go back to one until a few years later when I had a question about a lump in my throat and which she did not answer for me. So I kind of left. And the aftermath of that, you know what I found out that ended up being I was like, well, what was the point of that, like to go be violated and not actually get my questions answered?
00;05;40;09 - 00;06;04;04
Unknown
Yeah. And that was that was kind of the very beginning of the end for me. Of course, I had to go back into the system once I figured out that I had I had thyroid cancer, I had papillary carcinoma that I discovered when I was 24. I got a cough and just like something bothering me, and I would reach up and grab my throat and I was like, what's that?
00;06;04;05 - 00;06;24;24
Unknown
I didn't even know what a thyroid was until. Didn't had no idea, didn't know what it did. So that was crazy. Very scary. I ended up, you know, asking my mom about it after this OB oh, she had said, oh like, yeah, you have you had a respirator problem recently like oh yeah, I was coughing. She's like oh yeah.
00;06;24;24 - 00;06;40;25
Unknown
Well you know that's probably what it is. Just you know, go see an NT if it doesn't go away. And I just had a feeling I was like, I feel like this is something worse. So I did end up talking to my mom who is a nurse. She was like, yeah, we'll go to an INT, get that checked out.
00;06;40;25 - 00;07;07;27
Unknown
So I did, and it was pretty obviously this rare but most common form of fibroid cancer. He had said. I ended up going to an endocrine surgeon after that who, you know, if you're doing this. We were lucky that it was somebody who my grandfather knew from his church and very nice man, good at what he does. But he'd said it had been growing for about five years.
00;07;07;27 - 00;07;39;09
Unknown
It's a very slow growing cancer, but unfortunately the course of treatment is of your thyroid removed all the way. I ended up doing that. Let's see. Found that out in November of 2013. So by the end of December 2013, had the surgery had it out, I have a J scar that goes all the way up my neck because it it did end up spreading to my lymph nodes.
00;07;39;09 - 00;08;05;23
Unknown
And on the right side it was it was the whole tumor was on the right side. So they take the whole thing out 35 lymph nodes on this side of my neck. Whoa. And that. Yeah, that's a whole story in itself. That was that hospital experience was traumatic. I don't think I can ever go back. And honestly, that is really what prompted me to find free birth ten years later.
00;08;05;23 - 00;08;32;12
Unknown
But without going into the gory details I get through, the surgery goes really well. He gets every bit of it, every bit of the tumor, every bit of you're just you're moving thyroid tissue because until a certain point, thyroid tissue is the only place this cancer can grow unless you leave it for a long period of time. And the fear as it gets out gets into your lymph nodes, gets other places.
00;08;32;12 - 00;08;56;05
Unknown
So that's why this is the protocol. But after the surgery, I was recovering. I, you know, had finally come to. And I just remember like a nurse coming in, they're coming to take your vitals and check you in to like, where you're staying. And I was not a very confrontational person, but something I mean, it was just like, no, leave me alone.
00;08;56;07 - 00;09;24;14
Unknown
Like, this has been a lot. Just leave me alone. And at that moment, my whole body, I got locked jaw, my limbs locked, my like, my numb, my limbs started tingling, and I, I couldn't move. And one of the very, you know, rare. I've heard about it more since this cancer is becoming more common. But one of the side effects of this surgery is potentially stunning.
00;09;24;14 - 00;09;52;12
Unknown
Or, you know, ruining your parathyroid glands, which control the calcium in your blood. And even though it did not look like that was happening in the surgery, surgeon said everything looked good. I think they had to take one of my parathyroid with the tumor, but he was like, they looked fine, they were functioning. But some stress of that situation, it just threw me into overdrive.
00;09;52;12 - 00;10;16;23
Unknown
I was so stressed out and I had no calcium, like going anywhere. So I was locked up. Every medical personnel left the room right, like it was like it was a grenade. And at that point I looked at my mom and I said, I think I'm dying. But you're fully conscious, fully conscious, fully like, completely remove, can't move.
00;10;16;24 - 00;10;42;23
Unknown
Like, it's like what I imagine having lockjaw would be. Yeah, it was terrifying. And, you know, I had been briefly warned about this potential side effect, but it was so rare that I didn't think you're like, okay, yeah, whatever. Like this will be fine. You know, you're so I was so, like, numb at the time, bowing into this like, I can't believe I have to go in and participate in the system that I have feared, like, so much my whole life.
00;10;42;23 - 00;11;04;06
Unknown
But I guess I just have to trust them. And I just have to do this because I have this problem. And then my mom, like, probably fully saved my life in this situation, ran out, got it, was trying to force them to give me calcium, which of course they wouldn't do because the surgeon had gone home and he couldn't sign off on it.
00;11;04;10 - 00;11;29;19
Unknown
So my grandfather's running down the road trying to get his church directory to try to call the surgeon at home, to tell these people to let me have IV calcium. And I'm just sitting there like, oh my gosh, why? Like, why did I do this? I was fine, I came in here and I felt fine, like I had a tumor on my thyroid, but it was functioning completely as it should.
00;11;29;20 - 00;11;56;17
Unknown
Just had this, you know, to her. And I felt fine. And here I am laying here now. I don't feel fine. Like, why, why did I do this? You know, who knows when this would have killed me? And you're having all these thoughts. And my mom was like, basically shaking down the nurses. She sent my my boyfriend at the time, who's now my husband, to get me Tums, like, that's all I needed.
00;11;56;20 - 00;12;27;21
Unknown
And so I think, I don't know how long that went on, maybe an hour. But I just remember getting so enraged, like I trusted these people and I asked to be left alone, and they didn't want to do it. And now I'm sitting here, like, literally shriveling up into myself. And that lasted about an hour. And I think, like between those three people running to get me help and me getting so angry like that kept me going.
00;12;27;22 - 00;12;59;14
Unknown
And finally the surgeon called was like, oh yeah, give her some calcium. And then I was fine at that point. Unfortunately, for many years after that surgery, I still had low parathyroid function. They were there, but very weak. So in addition to synthetic thyroid, I have had to take and manage like calcium supplements. Yeah. So that was that big terrible trauma.
00;12;59;16 - 00;13;32;10
Unknown
You now today regret that surgery? I regret doing it as quickly as I did now learning more about it. Wish that I had looked into alternate treatments. I wish I had just researched a little bit more. I wish that I've looked into going, you know, I don't know if any doctor or any endocrine surgeon in any country would consider doing a hemi roid EC2 me, which they will do if if they're not sure it's cancer.
00;13;32;10 - 00;13;52;05
Unknown
Once they're sure it's cancer, no doctor wants to just take out half your thyroid. They want to take the whole thing and they really scare you into doing it. You're like, this dirty part of you is going to infect the rest of your body. And, you know, then you'll have cancer somewhere else and you don't want that. And so I was really young.
00;13;52;05 - 00;14;15;09
Unknown
I was really scared. And oddly enough, I felt like I had done something wrong, which was odd, you know? Yeah. Just dirty is the word I was feeling at the time. So I do wish I had looked into alternate treatments. It's such a slow growing cancer that honestly, it would have been a good one to explore other options with.
00;14;15;09 - 00;14;43;07
Unknown
I don't know that the outcome would have been the same, because I don't know how quickly it would have spread. I certainly wish that it hadn't happened. My life would be a lot easier. Not tied to synthetic thyroid and calcium and, you know, whatever other supplements I end up needing to take as a result of this, I and anybody going through it, I would highly, highly recommend not feeling the urgency.
00;14;43;09 - 00;15;06;10
Unknown
Like take your time, research it, really find out if this is what you have to do. You know, I was listening to another podcast recently that they were talking about treating glioblastoma with nicotine. And what else is out there that we can learn about this. I think this would be a really I think there's another form of cancer that is a little more urgent.
00;15;06;12 - 00;15;31;22
Unknown
But it wasn't it wasn't the kind I had. So and it is becoming more common. So hopefully, you know, for other people dealing with it, they might have more options. But I have definitely dealt with off and on regret for for doing this and doing it when I did. Okay. So then kind of close that gap between that experience to your first pregnancy.
00;15;31;25 - 00;15;53;17
Unknown
Yeah, definitely. So there was ten full years there that I, you know, I had been open to having kids. I was never one of those people who imagined themselves as a mom. I, you know, was fine with babies. I had little brothers. I have two younger brothers. I took care of them when they were younger. I really enjoyed that.
00;15;53;17 - 00;16;17;25
Unknown
I have great relationships with them, but I could see myself as a mom, and then I could also not see myself as a mom. And I know that a big part of that for me was what a medical event I had always seen human birth to be. You know, my mom and dad kept a lot of documentation of our births, and I never liked watching those videos.
00;16;17;25 - 00;16;36;20
Unknown
I never liked looking at those pictures. You know, when I was born, I was really small. I was full term, but they said it was too small. I had to go in an incubator and they have a picture of me, like in an incubator next to my mom. And I just I never liked that. I would look at it and cry as a little girl, like, I don't like that.
00;16;36;21 - 00;17;02;06
Unknown
And so it's great because now my mom and I have like unpacked that and she's listened to your podcast and like realized, oh my gosh, I like they told me I was, you know, not good enough to keep you warm. And there was dying to hold you on it. So it's so sad, I know. Here's a plastic bin that's better than the body this baby grew and got.
00;17;02;06 - 00;17;35;23
Unknown
It's effective. It is, I know, and I'm still me. Women that you know have shared with me over the years how, you know, intertwined or confused or conflated. Is that the right word of their fear of becoming a mom with the imagery of medical birth? It's a really interesting because once I mean, so many women are having this epiphany in our generation that once they can untangle that birth doesn't have to be this really, really scary medical event.
00;17;35;24 - 00;18;02;25
Unknown
Their interest in it and their interest in motherhood blooms. And it's so that's such a like, shocking thing that we're contending with in our culture. Yes, it's so true and it's so stark against, you know, seeing my birth, the birth of my brothers, which my little brother was a C-section. And it's just I cried watching that video too, as a kid.
00;18;02;25 - 00;18;26;16
Unknown
But then I've been so lucky. I've always lived, you know, in a rural setting or a farm setting, and we've always had a ton of animals. And so I had seen dogs give birth, horses give birth, cows give birth, cats give birth, chickens hatch, ducks hatch, you know. And that was so beautiful and interesting and not scary to me.
00;18;26;16 - 00;18;46;18
Unknown
And it took me a long time. And I don't know why. I don't know why this is, but it took me a long time to just say, oh, that's the same thing. Yeah. Like, why why are we doing it this way? And, you know, I have a horse that had a baby, like, we didn't even know it. And we came out here.
00;18;46;18 - 00;19;19;15
Unknown
She was. So over the years, you know, after my surgery, I, of course, was getting more serious with my boyfriend. We got engaged, we got married. You know, my life was has been really good in spite of this, you know, part event. I will also mention that the next step in the protocol for the treatment of thyroid cancer would have been to take a radioactive iodine pill that they want you to take to kill any thyroid tissue that's left.
00;19;19;15 - 00;19;40;29
Unknown
And I you know, I was so deflated after the surgery, after this experience and I was like, okay, whatever. Like, I guess you own me now. I guess I have to do what you say. But another big, big props to my mom here. My mom is such a great researcher. She got in and was like, hey, hey, hey, wait a minute.
00;19;41;05 - 00;20;08;18
Unknown
I looked up this pill and if you don't really need it, which like, you know, you're testing your blood. I had no evidence of any thyroid tissue left, any cancer markers after the surgery. And ever since then they've been gone. But she said, hey, like, I'm looking up this iodine treatment and they haven't told you about the side effects, which could be lymphoma like chronic dry eyes and mouth.
00;20;08;20 - 00;20;35;16
Unknown
I guess it can zap your, like, salivary glands and tear ducts. And so I brought that up to the then endocrinologist that I was going to see, and I was like, hey, you know, I know you guys want me to take this pill in a few months, but can you tell me about these side effects? And they were like, oh yeah, I mean, that's happened, but you can just go to the dentist more and you can just put eyedrops in and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm already on like a calcium supplement.
00;20;35;22 - 00;20;55;27
Unknown
I didn't know I would have to be on. No. And so I ended up I was seeing this one doctor, this endocrinologist, they just turned you into a science experiment. Yeah. It's like, oh, just do this. You'll be fine. I'm like, okay, I wear contacts I can't like, do I drops? That doesn't work for me. Why would I go to the dentist?
00;20;55;27 - 00;21;18;11
Unknown
Who's paying for this? You know, that's a big question that has come up a lot over the years. So I had this one doctor who was really I was good with her. She was very non alarmist other than she was obsessed with me not taking this radioactive iodine. And I was just like, I don't have cancer markers. I'm not going to do this if I don't need to.
00;21;18;12 - 00;21;39;15
Unknown
And she would, you know, send me in for extra neck sonograms and like, you know, come back for another blood test. And anytime I was sick or had like lymph nodes in my neck, she was like, oh, wouldn't it be nice to just like, be done with all this, like worrying and screening and so, oh my gosh, she made me crazy.
00;21;39;18 - 00;21;56;29
Unknown
And it's funny because she was very not alarmist about if I was whenever I would bring up pregnancy and I was still pretty young at the time, I was like, I don't think we're quite ready. And she was like, oh yeah, that's fine. You know, you'll have to check your thyroid more, will adjust your pills as you move along in the pregnancy.
00;21;57;00 - 00;22;15;13
Unknown
No big deal. I was like, okay, well, that's great to know. But she wouldn't get off my back about this. Right. Active iodine. And they're really watching you closely for five years after you've had the surgery. So I think I was three years in 2 or 3 years in and I had I was like, I got a switch, I got it go somewhere else.
00;22;15;13 - 00;22;36;25
Unknown
So I ended up going to a new under chronology, who was really nice for a while and was like, oh yeah, like, that's fine. Sometimes the protocol doesn't call for the radioactive iodine. And we're learning more about this. And she was really cool with that. So for a while I was like, okay, like I think we're good. I can get along with this person.
00;22;36;28 - 00;23;04;24
Unknown
Until I was maybe 28, 29, seeing her and I just in passing in at an appointment was like, hey, so can you just tell me, like, I'm curious, how does the thyroid change in pregnancy? And she was like, are you pregnant? I was like, no, no, I just would like to know this general information since I have to live with this situation, can you just tell me?
00;23;04;29 - 00;23;23;25
Unknown
Oh, well, I've got to send you to a high risk of B right now. I'm not. I'm not kidding. It's like I'm not. No, no, I'm not pregnant. She was like, well are you are you going to be. I was like, I don't know. I would like to ask some questions. This is really none of your business. I please like she just gate kept.
00;23;23;27 - 00;23;45;27
Unknown
She never told me and she was ever since that appointment where I asked that simple question, she was like, oh my gosh, but you could get pregnant. And she was trying to like, set me up an appointment with a high risk OBE that she really liked. And every single time, the only way I could get her to shut up about it was to say who.
00;23;46;01 - 00;24;06;23
Unknown
Like, who pays for that? Because I'm paying out of pocket, you know, I pay, I pay it for each appointment because, yeah, it was so weird. Just the switch that flipped in her when I brought that up, so. Well, why are you saying who pays for that when it's obvious that's you? I think that she just honestly, that was the.
00;24;06;24 - 00;24;29;26
Unknown
That was my only defense to get her to stop talking about it. And I was so uncomfortable that I was like, you know, she's not hearing me say, I'm not interested in that. You know, I'm not even pregnant. Nobody has. Nobody in this entire journey from the very beginning has ever mentioned, like, I would need to go see a high risk OBE to even want to get pregnant.
00;24;29;27 - 00;24;53;22
Unknown
Okay. And she was really pushing this specific one, which is so weird. And I don't know if it was someone that she had seen or. Yeah, I have no idea. I did kind of pick up that maybe she had struggled with fertility herself. Maybe she had had a loss because she was kind of alluding to, you don't want to go through this, you know, like, yeah, like you need to keep a close eye on things.
00;24;53;22 - 00;25;14;19
Unknown
And I was just like, just so icky. And then I kind of would just play it down and be like, oh, like, you know, we're not, we're not, we're never like, not not trying for years, honestly, we were just kind of open to it. But I didn't tell her that. And I was just kind of like, get in, get out, get your prescription, leave me alone.
00;25;14;19 - 00;25;38;26
Unknown
And then 2020 happens. And I believe it was sometime in 2021. They had moved appointments to being virtual, and I had a virtual appointment with her, which, you know, then I was like, oh, we can do this. Like, why do I even have to come see you? This is so dumb. Like, all you need to do is read my blood and tell me how much pill to take.
00;25;39;02 - 00;25;59;10
Unknown
But she spent that entire appointment, virtual appointment, trying to convince me to get the Covid shot, which had just come out. And it was so bizarre because I was like, no, no, I actually have some questions about like how I'm feeling and, and, you know, different supplements that might support my thyroid, non-existent thyroid, naturally. And she's like, no, no, no.
00;25;59;11 - 00;26;35;14
Unknown
Like, listen, you're like, we all just got this Pfizer shot. We feel great. And don't worry, it won't affect your thyroid. And it was like, well, I don't have one. So remember, like that's why I'm here. And I think this is like, this is an American magical there. Yes. Oh, it was also I was so weirded out and I'm already thinking in my head and just like such drones and I and I'm like the people I follow on Instagram who are doctors, who are nurses, they're all saying the same words you're saying.
00;26;35;15 - 00;26;56;29
Unknown
And so now I really don't trust you because I'm weirded out and you're not answering my questions again. So it was so funny because then of course, she brings up like an, you know, if you get pregnant, you should really go get this shot because we don't know how if you get Covid, it will affect, you know, pregnancy.
00;26;57;04 - 00;27;17;06
Unknown
It hasn't it hasn't been around long enough. And I was proud of myself because I said, well, has the shot been around long enough for you to know how that affects pregnancy? And that was the only like she was like, oh well yeah. So anyways, here's your labs. And that was the only way to get her to not talk about it was to just throw it back that way.
00;27;17;06 - 00;27;39;17
Unknown
And so I'm starting to think I'm like, I don't like this. I don't trust this. I certainly don't trust this system. I want to trust this person. I know you're trying to be nice. I know you're trying to do your job well, but I'm not trusting you anymore. And so I was thinking, you know, if, gosh, it's going to be so hard.
00;27;39;18 - 00;28;01;06
Unknown
How am I going to. How am I ever going to have a baby? How am I ever going to have a family? You know, it was really my husband's older than I am. He was talking about it more than I was, and it was a thing that I was wanting but afraid to want, because I felt like I had this roadblock of how do I get around this problem, this dependency.
00;28;01;06 - 00;28;23;14
Unknown
I have this reliance on the medical system. So many of you have asked me over the years about the choice to not register your baby after birth, no birth certificate, no social security number, and how to still get a passport. Well, I'm thrilled to finally have someone I can wholeheartedly refer you to. Free birthing mother and sovereignty mentor Veda Rae.
00;28;23;16 - 00;28;47;19
Unknown
Veda doesn't just talk about this. She lives it. And now she's teaching other parents exactly how to welcome and raise a truly sovereign baby. Head over to Veda Revival and start your journey. So I think the next year we really started having like supply issues. So I'd call in my thyroid prescription and there would be a wait. And that was freaking me out.
00;28;47;20 - 00;29;14;20
Unknown
I was like, I can't, they can't get it in fast enough. So I started just paying out of pocket. I started calling in my prescriptions early. I was like, I want this on hand. And they seemed to understand that I wasn't paying with insurance. So yeah, I got a bunch on hand. I would just I had called in my prescription, I would call it in ahead of time, pay out of pocket.
00;29;14;20 - 00;29;45;23
Unknown
And that is, you know, the way I felt good about having having my thyroid pills on hand. And then as the year went on, we ended up my husband had a mastermind meeting in Mexico, and I went down and went to a pharmacy there where you don't you don't need a prescription, but my exact amount, the number of pills that I felt good having and flew back with them and it wasn't a problem.
00;29;45;26 - 00;30;09;22
Unknown
So I felt really good about having, you know, I was like, okay, like I'm good. I don't have to go back to her. At this point, I had found an anytime blood draw clinic that I could go. I checked my thyroid a few times on my own, just out of curiosity. If I was feeling funky and I just said okay, I if I have to, can manage this myself.
00;30;09;22 - 00;30;32;03
Unknown
When you say you checked your thyroid but you don't have a thyroid, what are you checking? So you're checking like your level of TSA, which is coming from your synthetic medications. Yes. Yes. Correct. Which would be if you had a fire roid your thyroid would be producing that. And then. Yeah. So that's the that's what the synthetic thyroid is and that's how you adjust.
00;30;32;05 - 00;31;07;03
Unknown
You know, you're checking the medication in your body. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You're like okay, cool. I kind of got this going on. I can kind of do this in this semi-autonomous way or self-directed way. Yeah. And how does that tie into pregnancy? So it kind of all just lined up at the at the right time because as I was doing this and as I was kind of feeling good about this new plan, we moved to some acreage south of town and I was pregnant like three months later.
00;31;07;03 - 00;31;33;29
Unknown
And it was, you know, it shouldn't have been a surprise, but it was a total surprise. And I remember being so excited, but so nervous because I was like, okay, now I really have to face this. And at first I was thinking, okay, like, I'll be, I'll be responsible. I really, really wanted a home birth. I knew I was like, I won't do well in a hospital again.
00;31;34;00 - 00;31;56;03
Unknown
I can't go back and relive that. That memory of what happened after my surgery. So my husband was great. He knew that I was kind of nervous about reaching out to people, and he reached out to a friend's daughter, who was a doula, who gave us a list of, you know, med wives that she said, yeah, these these are great.
00;31;56;03 - 00;32;27;15
Unknown
Call them, interview them. So we ended up having a phone interview with one of them, only one of them. And I was instantly just so crestfallen after talking to her because I had this idea that home birth was like, oh, you'll, you know, you'll be there, but you'll let me do my thing. And I had already kind of, you know, been learning about the dangers of Doppler and sonogram technology.
00;32;27;15 - 00;32;59;04
Unknown
And I'd been reading, you know, all these more natural Pathak approaches to pregnancy just out of curiosity. And so when she started saying these words like, this is what we'll do, and I'll come to your home and I'll be there for about two hours. I was like, oh, no, I don't know if I want that, you know? And she was very young and had just gotten back from some third world country where she'd just been saving all the babies and was very, like, eager to be here and prove herself.
00;32;59;04 - 00;33;20;02
Unknown
And, you know, we got into discussing like, okay, what does it look like when you come for the birth? And she said, oh yeah, yeah, I'll be hands off, but I will have like my Doppler and I'll come with pitocin just in case. And I was kind of like, oh, I don't, I don't really, I'm not really into that.
00;33;20;04 - 00;33;43;17
Unknown
And she said, oh, but I'll bring some herbs to like, you know, well, we'll just, we'll garnish the pitocin with some herbs so that like elevates it or makes it better. And I was just, I was so just I realized this was modern obstetrics, like coming into my home and that was not I was like, so I was so disappointed.
00;33;43;17 - 00;34;05;18
Unknown
And I just I remember sitting on my back porch just crying because I was like, I thought I had found a good in between, and I didn't, and this isn't what I thought it was. And I just I'm not a person that gets lonely. But I felt so alone in that moment. I felt so isolated. I was like, I don't want to do all the things that you're supposed to do.
00;34;05;19 - 00;34;25;22
Unknown
Like, I see my friends announcing the birth of their babies on social media and, you know, nine times out of ten, truly, it seems like that it's a C-section. And I didn't know you were planning that. And I you know, I don't I don't want that. So I think kind of again, in a moment of desperation, I was like, nope, I'm going to figure this out.
00;34;25;22 - 00;34;50;01
Unknown
Because if you asked me like, what my dream birth was, it's me out in the woods by myself having a baby and, you know, off the cuff. That's what I would tell you. So that night, I think I searched a hashtag. I literally, I searched unassisted birth because I was just like, what? What do you call this? This?
00;34;50;04 - 00;35;12;17
Unknown
I didn't even know what to call it, but I knew that I wanted it, and I was like, I'm just going to see if anybody has done this. And I think it led me to a post from the woman who free birthed in the ocean. I think you've talked to her on your podcast, and then I found the hashtag Free Birth, and I was clicking around and I found a few different accounts and I found yours.
00;35;12;18 - 00;35;43;03
Unknown
And then I realized you had a podcast, and I just started binge listening, and it was so, well, oh my gosh, just so validating. And I was like, finally, like, this is what I've been trying to so sanity. I know I'm not crazy. Oh my gosh, people do this and people did this. And yeah, and I just I was like, okay, this is this is for me.
00;35;43;03 - 00;36;04;19
Unknown
And I got the complete guide to free birth. And it was really great because that gave me something to do. I was like, I'm going to be hands on. Meanwhile, I'm feeling great pregnancy wise. I have I've literally I think I only suspected I was pregnant because I felt so good, which was super weird because I wasn't having any hypercalcemia symptoms.
00;36;04;22 - 00;36;27;25
Unknown
I was really I was tired, but I just, I felt better than I had felt in ten years. It was crazy. So I'm like, I feel really good. Everything seems to be progressing as it should. You know, I'm going to learn about this. I'm going to learn everything that I can, and I'm going to get interested in this thing that I thought I was not interested in, and I'm going to learn about it.
00;36;27;25 - 00;36;49;21
Unknown
And that was so cool. And my husband took the class with me. And yeah, it was this really cool, like journey. We both went on, you know, not really knowing what we were doing, but it was it was great. And I oh my gosh, wild pregnancy is just the best. If I had known it could be like that, I would have.
00;36;49;21 - 00;37;03;02
Unknown
I think I would have like four kids by now. It was so, so much fun and so gosh, healing like it was the beginning of such a healing process for me.
00;37;03;04 - 00;37;34;28
Unknown
Gosh. And then, you know, I want to say, I've been going. Of course, I've been checking my thigh roid myself, getting blood tests. I was doing a whole panel to know what my blood calcium was. I was right in the perfect range, like the whole time. Only once it got on the lower end of normal and I adjusted it the way any endocrinologist would, you know, because I was kind of used to that over the years.
00;37;34;29 - 00;37;56;23
Unknown
Up and down, you kind of add a half pill to a pill, take it away. And that did the trick. So I was going I was going pretty frequently to do that, probably once about every month and a half just to, you know, know where I was. And so I really kept it in the range that it needed to be in.
00;37;56;28 - 00;38;21;20
Unknown
I really wasn't having to take a ton of calcium. My calcium was really good during that time, which is amazing. And then I would go to the chiropractor, you know, just as I wanted to. That felt really good to me. I was riding my horses every day. That was so awesome and really helpful. You know, when I, when I get really bad sciatic pain, I would just go ride my horse when I felt like it.
00;38;21;20 - 00;38;38;26
Unknown
And it was like such a time of great and bouncing back into place. Yeah. It just felt literally I would just sit there and be like, oh, I'm just going to sit on the horse today, not move. And it would put me in place. It was it was great. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So I was just doing equine chiropractic.
00;38;38;29 - 00;39;00;10
Unknown
Yeah, it was awesome. So I did that about up until about eight months ish. And then I just felt like okay, that that was it. That was the last ride. Like, you know, just it's amazing how in tune you are with your body and nobody is telling you what to think about it or what to feel or what to do.
00;39;00;11 - 00;39;32;14
Unknown
Certainly helps. Yeah, yeah. It was it was incredible. So, so around that time, about the eight month mark, my husband and I, you know, had been discussing finding a birth keeper. I had joined the lighthouse, which was great. And I think Brandon wanted somebody to ask questions to. And I wanted somebody both for me to ask questions to and for him to ask questions to, so that he couldn't be asking me all these questions.
00;39;32;14 - 00;40;00;01
Unknown
And we were pretty close to when I thought I would be due. And I reached out to carry in our area through the lighthouse, and we met her for coffee and oh my gosh, such a stark difference talking to a birth keeper, an RBK grad, somebody like not a medical midwife versus that conversation with that med wife. It was so.
00;40;00;03 - 00;40;27;12
Unknown
And I was a little nervous because how would you describe it? Like how would you say it was so different? Oh, just I just I felt so seen and so ready to be understood, which I was not prepared for. I was not prepared for her to tell. Like, say, she was there to hear what I wanted. You had, like, respectful, humane dialog.
00;40;27;14 - 00;40;52;23
Unknown
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, she wanted to know about me and just who I was as a person and my hopes and fears and wants. And you know, that we met maybe 2 or 3 times after that, you know, for walks or coffee. And we just talked and it was so great. And I never felt like this is a person that's going to do something to me ever.
00;40;52;23 - 00;41;18;28
Unknown
And, oh, that's so nice to have. I honestly, I wish that I wish that, you know, somebody out there who could manage and prescribe diverged medication existed. I would love to find that person. So it's really amazing and unique that there are, you know, this group of women available if you want a sovereign birth. So oh, it was so cool.
00;41;19;03 - 00;41;46;18
Unknown
But yeah. So I felt very like I felt very prepared going in talking to her. You know, we we unpacked my birth and things that I was afraid of and what ifs. And yeah, it was just like having having a friend to talk to that you could lay that worry on. And yeah, it was, it was just the perfect scenario for me.
00;41;46;18 - 00;42;09;19
Unknown
And I can't I still can't believe I found it sometimes. So you found it through the lighthouse. Yeah, yeah I found well, you know, just through Free birth society and then her through the lighthouse and then. Yeah. It's okay. So women listening, join the flippin lighthouse and birth workers invest in the lighthouse. It is such an hub of networking.
00;42;09;21 - 00;42;29;22
Unknown
Yes. Period. Okay. Go on. It absolutely is. And oh, my gosh. And it had just opened like at the time I decided to do this. It was just, you know, like, I feel like when in life, these paths light up for you, you just know that's where you need to go. And that's kind of how it unfolded for me.
00;42;29;22 - 00;42;55;00
Unknown
So that was amazing. Yeah. All right, so tell us your birth phone. Oh my gosh, I love it I love it so much. Which is crazy for me to say because I again, I cannot emphasize enough how much I used to fear birth and the idea of pregnancy. And so I'm like, this is a 180 for all of those women I was in the past, so I was due.
00;42;55;02 - 00;43;19;04
Unknown
I knew it was right around Thanksgiving, which, you know, mistake number one, don't ever give anybody like a beacon of this is what I'm due like, because people would ask, when's your due date? And I was so, you know, I was like, I don't know, Thanksgiving. Didn't know it was really early that year. So he ended up being born like four days after Thanksgiving.
00;43;19;04 - 00;43;36;11
Unknown
So I had turned my phone off a couple days before because people were texting me like, what's happening? Are you still pregnant? I was like, okay, I don't I'm gonna I'm going to go dark. I'm okay. Just, you know, turn my phone off. Everybody talk to Brandon if you need something. And he was great with that. He was awesome.
00;43;36;13 - 00;44;00;08
Unknown
So the day before, I was feeling a little bit more sluggish, a little bit more tired. Still wasn't really sure what was going on, but I felt like going for a walk. I was like, you know, I just I want to like, I want to walk. So we walked in the woods behind our house for a bit, and it was misty and rainy.
00;44;00;08 - 00;44;30;16
Unknown
And so like November Folly and it was so peaceful. But at that point I was like, what is this? It is this it, you know, when will it start? And I think it was later that night. I did end up having my a little bit of a bloody show, and I was like, okay. So I was feeling something and that was kind of affirming to me because I was like, okay, like I'm not just imagining stuff.
00;44;30;22 - 00;44;55;04
Unknown
So we decided, I think we we watched a movie that night, and it was that, I don't know why I wanted to watch this, but this animated movie that Adam Sandler did where he's a lizard. And I was watching it thinking, oh, this is really, really funny. And then he would do a stupid like, Adam Sandler voice, and I would get really, like, pissed off, like, oh, I hate that, I hate this.
00;44;55;04 - 00;45;18;10
Unknown
Why are we watching this? And then we'd watch it a little bit more and I'd be like, this is so funny. And then a few minutes later like, oh my gosh, Adam Sandler is so annoying. I hate this. And so that was kind of the beginning of The sensations, which is so like it didn't feel like anything except like me getting pissed and then being really happy.
00;45;18;11 - 00;45;43;21
Unknown
And so we went to bed that night, and I would just start waking up every hour, and I let Brandon sleep. I was like, okay, if this is going to happen at some point, I don't want, you know, I want him to sleep so that he can have energy in case I need help with whatever. And I just kind of woke up every hour, almost on the hour throughout the night.
00;45;43;28 - 00;46;09;26
Unknown
And I would go, I would try to nap in between. And it was just kind of like a gradual, like maybe a period cramp that would build every time. And I got up and watched the sunrise with my dogs and had some tea, and it was getting a little, like very gradually more intense. But of course, every single time, every sensation I was like, is, is this it?
00;46;09;27 - 00;46;31;08
Unknown
Is this it? You know, the first time you just don't know. And we were texting with Carrie. I was having Brandon text her because I just really didn't want to look at my phone. And she knew that that was the case and that that was cool with her, since it was cool with me and I, you know, was kind of getting tired, more tired as the morning went on.
00;46;31;08 - 00;46;48;23
Unknown
And that was freaking me out a little bit because of course, I was like, oh, no, like, I need to rest. So would try to lay down and rest, and Brandon would bring me drinks and snacks, and then I would want to get up and move around a bit. One point in the middle of the day, I was like, I want to go.
00;46;48;25 - 00;47;09;17
Unknown
I want to go down and see the horses. I want to go outside and just be in the sun. So I went and put my feet in the grass and got some sun on my face and saw all the horses in their stalls and went and saw the chickens and just kind of was outside and kind of felt this whole, I don't know, just like felt the world for a minute.
00;47;09;17 - 00;47;40;00
Unknown
And that was really, really nice. So spent about, you know, 45 minutes to an hour outside. And then I was ready to go back up. I ended up having a pretty big wave of sensations about when I was about to go up the stairs, because we live in the apartment above our barn. And so I was about to go back up to be there, and I had to wait at the bottom of the stairs for that to pass, got back up, and then I just, I guess it was getting to be early afternoon.
00;47;40;00 - 00;48;00;04
Unknown
I just wanted to be in the bathroom and our our bathroom. I had a feeling I'd want to be in there. We had heated floors and it's it's really beautiful blue color in there and it just feels like a cave. And I had the option of the tub if I wanted it, which I thought would feel really good to me.
00;48;00;04 - 00;48;25;05
Unknown
And it did at first. So I spent some time just getting in and out of the tub, and we'd spread blankets and towels out on the floor, and I had a pillow against the wall, and I was just in there for hours, and Brandon would keep bringing me food and snacks and, I told him to have to call Carrie to come out, you know, when he felt like he needed to.
00;48;25;08 - 00;48;41;13
Unknown
I didn't want to know. I was like, I don't want to know when you call her. I don't want to know when she gets here, because I don't know that I want her in the room. I'm not sure what I want yet. I'm taking this step by step. He was like, okay, that's great. She was good with that.
00;48;41;13 - 00;49;04;14
Unknown
I like that's what I wanted. And so I think I want to say she maybe got there around 3 or 4 p.m., but I, I didn't know because she stayed downstairs in our tack room for a little while, and I was just writing the sensations in the bathroom and in and out of the tub. I would turn the shower on just for some variation.
00;49;04;18 - 00;49;27;07
Unknown
That was really nice. You know, my my dogs would come in and check on me and that was really cute for a while until, you know, later I wanted to be more and more alone, except for Brandon. And so I guess it was around. I'm not even sure of the time, but it seems like it would have been around 7 p.m..
00;49;27;09 - 00;49;54;11
Unknown
I have been laying on this little wedge pillow I have and that suddenly doesn't feel good. So I go to get in the shower and the water hits my back and I just get this huge wave, and I fall to my knees in the shower and like, the water suddenly doesn't feel good anymore, which surprised me. I thought I would want to be in the water and I managed to get the water turned off.
00;49;54;12 - 00;50;22;18
Unknown
I'm like, oh no, that's terrible. Now, for whatever reason. And I clamber out of the tub and I'm like spinning around on the ground. It was really weird. Like on the on the floor, on the bed of towels. And I, you know, I'm kind of looking for something for a while. And finally I'm like, oh, I put the toilet lid down and I grab onto the toilet and I just, I didn't realize I needed an anchor.
00;50;22;21 - 00;50;50;03
Unknown
So I've got myself just like holding on to the toilet where I remained for hours. I would leave for a little bit, try to lay down on the wedge pillow, but that is the beginning of like things started to get really intense and I was going along like just, I think I was fighting it for so long, just fighting the surrender for so long.
00;50;50;03 - 00;51;18;18
Unknown
And I don't know why, but I was grappling with myself in this weird like Twilight Zone almost. It was wild and I, like I say it, I, you know, I tell people the story and I know, like, it kind of sounds crazy, but I was like, no, the room was getting bigger and I was getting smaller. And at one point I'm like, fully admitting.
00;51;18;18 - 00;51;40;14
Unknown
I'm like, if I was in a hospital right now, there is no way I could get through the intensity of this without drugs. I understand why people like, want drugs in the hospital. You know, at no point did I feel like you want to get up and go to the hospital like you can. I was like, no, no, that sounds that sounds way worse than this.
00;51;40;14 - 00;52;07;13
Unknown
So I checked in with myself and that was always the case. So I was, you know, trying to think about like, oh, the floor is so warm, like, this is such a comfortable room and trying to keep myself grounded that way, you know, holding on to the toilet. And at one point, I just have this little voice in my head that goes, maybe you can just take an Advil.
00;52;07;15 - 00;52;46;03
Unknown
And that cracked me up. For some reason. I thought that was really funny. And at that point, like that, like laughing about that, like brought me out of my body and it it was so wild because it happened in a way that I was like sitting with this younger version of myself. And I don't really know how to describe it other than that, like having a vision of like a ten year old version of myself sitting in the room with me and then watching her, but then kind of becoming her, watching myself going through labor.
00;52;46;03 - 00;53;17;14
Unknown
And I'm just in this trippy, like wild, amazing, like big, big room. But, you know, my very small bathroom in reality. And meanwhile, Brandon, I barely notice him. He's in there lighting candles because we had the lights out. It was just candles and like the glow of our Christmas tree in the background, which was so neat and I don't know how long I was just floating in this spiritual energy.
00;53;17;14 - 00;53;44;08
Unknown
And that's the only way I can describe it. Like it was electric and I I've I've never been so awake. It was amazing. So I at one point, you know, I start saying I can't I can't do this like something like, why isn't anything happening? Like, I've been in this weird in between. Nothing's happening and I can't do this.
00;53;44;08 - 00;54;04;06
Unknown
I can't do this. Almost as if, oh, when you say, I can't do this, that like, makes it happen. So I think maybe 30 more minutes go by, it seems. And I finally decided to reach down and and like, feel like what? What is happening. And then like, I just felt this little, like, peach fuzz of his head.
00;54;04;13 - 00;54;32;07
Unknown
And I just got this surge of energy and I was like, oh, I'm doing it. It's working. Like, who knew? Like, I could do this? It's working like, you know how it's supposed to and how it has for the entire existence of of humans. And I want to say maybe it was about an hour after that that he really started descending.
00;54;32;07 - 00;54;58;03
Unknown
And Brandon had been great. He was filming and getting some really cool video for us to have, which I was barely even aware of. But then he crowned very like very quickly, you know, all this slow, gradual buildup. He, he crowned and I said, okay, like Brandon, catch him and he just ejected. Like that's the only way to describe it.
00;54;58;03 - 00;55;26;25
Unknown
I wasn't doing anything. My body was just doing this. And that was so cool. Like to just hang in there because you have no choice. This is happening. Like, you just you're along for the ride, you know? And once I accepted that, he just came so fast and his head popped out, Brandon saw it, put the camera down, turned around just in time for him to come out the rest of the way.
00;55;26;27 - 00;55;51;16
Unknown
And I'm. I was on my knees on the toilet the whole time. I couldn't get in any other position. I tried, I couldn't, and that ended up being perfect. So he came out very quickly. Brandon gets his hands under him just in time. He let out a little girly cry and that was it. And that, you know, he didn't didn't really cry after that until he changed his diaper the next day.
00;55;51;18 - 00;56;20;09
Unknown
So he then carries carries down in the tack room. Carrie okay, at this point Carrie had come upstairs because I, you know, I was like, she must be here by now, have her come up. But I never really wanted her in the room with me for his birth. So she had been in our living room waiting, reading a book, being wonderful, hanging out with our dogs so that they didn't come in and, you know, get underfoot and answering Brandon's questions.
00;56;20;09 - 00;56;41;19
Unknown
And that was the biggest thing because I was like, I don't want to answer questions. I, you know, she can give you the play by play of how this works. And I was fantastic. And so he when he came out, I took a minute. I couldn't turn around right away. I was like holding on to the toilet still, like just coming back into my body.
00;56;41;24 - 00;57;03;18
Unknown
And so then I slowly turned around and Brandon hands him to me and, you know, calls to carry. And I had said, yeah, that's okay, have her come in. Because mentally I hadn't gotten past that point. And I was like, we're get the baby out. Then I don't know what we're doing after that. So she came in, her dogs ran in with her, which was really funny.
00;57;03;18 - 00;57;24;23
Unknown
And there, you know, jumping up trying to see what happened. And she got them in the other room for us, which was great. And I just oh my gosh, just held him and stared at him. He was very obviously a boy, just I don't know. I knew he was a boy the whole time. I can't really explain it.
00;57;24;23 - 00;57;53;13
Unknown
I was going to be so happy either way. But he just had boy energy the whole time, so I, you know, stared at him for. But just the longest time it was so cool just holding him and talking to him and looking over him and but really, you know, I was just absolutely entranced with him. I hadn't I hadn't even thought about the placenta or the everything else that needs to happen.
00;57;53;13 - 00;58;17;16
Unknown
So that was great to have Carrie there for that to say, you know, rest as long as you want. You're going to feel uncomfortable when it's time to get the placenta out. And I was like, okay, I don't know what you mean, but sure enough, about 30 minutes after he was born, I set up and I was like, oh, like, I feel like throwing up, like backwards again, the best way I can describe it.
00;58;17;16 - 00;58;41;01
Unknown
So I was so shaky and weak from being on my knees that it took me a couple tries, but she had gotten me a bowl and the second time I stood up, I was able to just give it a little yank and squad squatting over the bowl came right out, which was, you know, so like, I never thought I would think that was cool either.
00;58;41;01 - 00;59;06;13
Unknown
But I was fascinated. I was like, that's amazing. So we sat there for maybe another 30, 45 minutes until the cord went white. And then she helped us clamp it and we cut it because that's that's the way I wanted to do it. And I sat there for a little while longer because I just I was like, I just feel really I'm just, you know, you're just tired and weak.
00;59;06;13 - 00;59;32;22
Unknown
And so then I felt like standing up, going to the bed. Carrie helped me in the bed while Brandon held Felix and. Yeah, and that was it. And it was so simple and cool and like, just the hardest, best thing I've ever done. Like, it was so awesome and I slept so well after that, that night. It was so cool.
00;59;32;24 - 01;00;05;19
Unknown
Yeah. Love that. It brings me so much joy and hope to hear. First time moms, you know, talk that way about their birth. You know. Yeah. And I really went into it, you know, early on with a bad attitude and the fact that I could do something to change that and find the podcast, find the lighthouse and find, you know, these stories and support to do it the way I dreamed about doing it, truly.
01;00;05;19 - 01;00;43;16
Unknown
It was so cool. And so, I don't know, healing for me too, because I think I really had a moment of forgiving myself in this birth for having gone through this. If I were cancer experience literally ten years, exactly ten years to when I gave birth to him, which was not planned at all, but really full circle. And I think that I let go of so much anger I had towards myself and my body, which I didn't even realize, like, you know, how could you break on me?
01;00;43;19 - 01;01;18;27
Unknown
But, you know, obviously I have some extra responsibility now because of that. But I took responsibility for it, and I found a way to this, and my body did what it was made to do and that. Oh, my gosh, it's so cool. Like, then. Yeah, just the coolest thing. And he's just been the most amazing chill baby. Like yeah I don't know if that's because I mean I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that he got such a peaceful start.
01;01;19;04 - 01;01;46;28
Unknown
I think it is. I think he does just have that personality, but I'm so happy for him that I could support that. You know, because life gets complicated. It, you know, things happen, you break bones, you get hurt, you have fights. But like the fact that this could be easy was so cool. Beautiful. Yeah. You. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
01;01;47;01 - 01;02;11;16
Unknown
All right, women, I hope you enjoyed the show today. You can support this podcast by donating to it through the link in the show notes below. And of course leaving an awesome review on whatever platform you listen on. The more reviews, the more visibility the show gets. So let's spread the good word of free birth. Don't forget, you can watch all of my podcast interviews on YouTube and see the women as they tell their birth and power stories.
01;02;11;16 - 01;02;32;17
Unknown
And you will also find our viral free worth collection of epic Raw Birth videos on our YouTube channel. So make sure you're subscribed. We always have a lot going on at Free Birth Society, and you can find out about all of it at Free Birth Society. And I am at Free Verse Society on Instagram. Please opt in to my newsletter below so that you don't miss a thing.
01;02;32;21 - 01;02;58;13
Unknown
We offer courses on free birth, sovereign birth work as well as one on one coaching women's retreats so much. Our exclusive private vetted membership. The Lighthouse is definitely something to check out. If you were looking for a community of wise sisters to get guidance from and to meet in real life. Together we rise. Sisters. We must speak our stories, fully, claim our lives, and support one another.
01;02;58;14 - 01;03;04;17
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This is the living revolution and I am so grateful to be in it with all of you. Till next time.
