Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldea.
Speaker 1
On this episode, we have an interview with author and free birther, Laura Shanley. After birthing all five of her children in her home with no medical assistance, she went on to write the book on unassisted childbirth. We get into her personal story from having child protective services take away her first born for five days to an unexpected footling breech delivery to birthing completely alone at unexpected footling breech delivery to birthing completely alone as a personal challenge, Laura really has done it all. We talk about loss, birth politics, and painless birth. Her book has inspired many to claim their birthing power and say no to routine care. I wanna hear from you. If you have a question, comment, story to share, or an episode idea, find me on free birth society dot com and send me a message. Also, reviews on iTunes are awesome. It helps spread the podcast to more listeners. Let's build and connect this community. So, you know, in the the first half of your book that's that's really focused on the information heavy parts, it was really interesting for me as a birth keeper to read because I noticed more than any birth book I've ever read, it triggered so much secondary trauma that I have of every experience that, you know, you were bringing up every intervention and, really illuminating the truth behind the intentions of these interventions. I mean, I was pretty blown away. I was crying and really being called to reprocess a lot of stuff that I have seen. And I was I was grateful for that because, as a birth worker, I'm only recently starting to come to terms with how much abuse I have really witnessed.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. You know,
Speaker 1
which is, something that I don't think doulas talk or moms talk enough about.
Speaker 3
Right. Years ago, I met with a group of, women. For about a year, we met once a month, and it was primarily doulas. And, and then there were a couple of us in there that were having unassisted births. But it just amazed me every month. It was just sort of this people were pouring out their hearts and saying, okay. You know, I went to another birth, and this is what they did. You know? This is and most of these women working in hospitals because, the midwives around here weren't really or the people that were hiring midwives weren't really looking for, a doula. They felt like the midwife was sort of providing that service. And so these were doulas who were working in hospitals, and it was just so hard for them to to witness all the interventions that were happening. And and I even looked into being a doula at one point, and I felt like if if I would be called if I would be if I would need to go to hospitals in order to work, I just don't think I could do it. I just think it would be very hard for me to sit there and watch a woman being interfered with on continually.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And and even a step beyond being interfered with, but actually being bullied and coerced and tried to and, you know, stuff forced upon her. You know, as you know, it it can get pretty bad. Right. Right.
Speaker 3
I went to a birth in a hospital You did? Recently. I've only been I've only been to two births in my life, other than my own. And one was my daughter, and she gave birth, like, in a birth center with a midwife, and they pretty much left her alone. And then the other one was in a hospital, last year, and she was bound and determined to do it naturally. And eventually, the, you know, the nurses are coming in. You know, sweetie, it really is better for you and your baby if you have the epidural. You know? And it really is you'll be able to relax. And then, you know, she had the epidural, and then, you know, Can I get in the position I want? No, I'm sorry, sweetie, because now your legs can't support you, and so you're gonna have to be on your back. So, it was still, you know, a miracle. Like, witnessing a baby being born, it was it was still exciting and all, but
Speaker 1
Of course. Boy. I wish that they said the truth, which is, sweetie, you would be so much easier for us to manage on
Speaker 3
this Right.
Speaker 1
On this busy floor if you were numb and in in immobile. And, also, we are programmed to believe that you need to be saved and that birth is suffering. And so please let us save you. You know, what if they what if they use that list? I mean, that's how I hear it. But yeah. Was that a family member or a friend?
Speaker 3
No, it was a friend. It was a woman that was sort of a, you know, I knew her somewhat, and and this was her daughter, and I had actually met them in Abraham Hicks, meet up, in the Abraham Hicks meet up group. And, she read my book and but just didn't really feel confident about doing it unassisted and just felt like she wanted me there. And so I said I would do it. And so it was, you know, I mean, in the end, she didn't have a C section. So, you know, yay, she didn't
Speaker 1
have a C section. It is. That's the bar. Yeah. That's the bar that we're at. Yeah, seriously. So, so let's back up a little bit. Obviously, I read your your book and absolutely loved it. And, it's it's, you know, in the free birth community, it's definitely one of the core, you know, pillars of inspiration and information. And, but I was wondering, you know, even before we get into why you wrote the book, you, you, you touch on why you chose free birth initially. But I wondered if you could speak to that a little bit of, you know, way, way back when, you and your partner, you know, decide to opt out. Can you talk about how you really originally make made a pretty radical decision?
Speaker 3
Well, for one, I was as I wrote in the book, I was just never really a fan of doctors. My father was a doctor, and I had been surrounded by doctors growing up. My my mother did medical research. My sister was a labor and delivery nurse. And there was just something about it that I never found doctors to be a comfort to me. You know, periodically, I would get strep throat. So I'd go in for penicillin shots and, of course, vaccines. I just found it all very traumatic. And I never really was sick. I mean, other than getting strep throat, I I I wasn't the type of person that, like, oh, I was really in pain, and then a doctor made me feel better. For me, a doctor always kind of made me feel worse, you know, with the shots. And, and I feel like even with the strep throat, I think it would have gone away on its own. But because my kids had sore throats over the years. I never took them in to a doctor. They never had a penicillin shot, and it went away, you know? So, I always sort of had and I had had some traumatic experiences with a pediatrician. And so I feel like, I was, just Doctors were just not a comfort to me. And I always felt, although, yes, I do believe that their doctors can do some good, and I believe in especially in emergency medicine. -You know, it's wonderful. -Of course. So But I always was like there was a certain arrogance that I saw in doctors that always bothered me. I always was sort of one to question authority. And I just really didn't like feeling like they were the ones who were knowledgeable and I was the idiot. You know? But so although I did go occasionally, I think, during my adolescence, maybe, you know, o OB GYN just for birth control, that kind of thing. But, so but I think what really got me thinking about not having a doctor is when I really started getting into spirituality and discovered that there really is something beyond the physical, that there is a larger consciousness. And when I got it I started to get a sense of that, it was like seeing someone in a white coat. It was like they were so It was almost like you know, I loved my dad, but I remember going to see him. I hadn't because I was estranged from my parents for years. And when I finally did go see him and I at his office, and he was wearing a white coat, And it was almost like a Halloween costume, like the stethoscope, the white the white coat. It was just like, no, there's something that we can tap into within ourselves that is so much greater than this, that is so much more knowledgeable than this. And that knowledge that I was starting to become aware of, you know, the knowledge that doctors have, I think just pales in comparison. I mean, I had really started to get a sense of my true power, and I had started to have things happen to me that were showing me the power of my thoughts and my feelings. And that was just so powerful to me that I felt like, to go into someone and have them say, Okay, now I'm the authority and you're gonna listen to me. I just thought, No, that doesn't feel right at all. And, so I think it was you know, we we had been studying, Grantley Dick Reed, childbirth without fear, which made total sense to me. I really liked how Grantley Dick Reed explained the fight flight response, and I just thought, yes. This absolutely makes sense. This shouldn't be the most painful, horrible ordeal a woman ever goes through. It makes much more sense that this has been designed beautifully, but somehow things are getting messed up. And I don't think it's because of evolution that we're walking upright when we shouldn't or the pelvis has narrowed. I don't think it's this series of accidents. I I think that there is a larger consciousness that has designed our bodies beautifully. And if we can understand how to relax and trust that consciousness, the same consciousness that is growing, the egg and the sperm, into a human being, you know, I I mean, I'm so amazed by that consciousness.
Speaker 2
And
Speaker 3
and I feel like, why wouldn't that being know how to complete the process? So, when we started when I got pregnant and, we were originally actually thinking about having a midwife and then we really started to think about how we are going to have to teach that midwife everything that we are learning now about how the mind affects the body. You know? And we knew that probably midwives were already leaning in this direction. But is a midwife going to say, you know what? You have the knowledge within you. What do you want to do right now? What are you feeling like? And there are some midwives that do that, but ultimately, the midwife has to choose. Do I answer to the state? Do I answer to the woman? Mhmm. You know? Or even do I answer to the state? Do I answer to myself? Because she may be getting those same promptings that the woman is getting. Like, you know what? Everything's fine. So what if your water's been broken for for more than twelve hours or whatever? You know? So, but so we just felt like, yeah, we're gonna have to teach the midwife about what we're learning. Why not just do it ourselves? And, so it was really our belief in the power of our own minds and we felt like if I can envision the kind of birth that I want I can create that. So we just decided not to look for a midwife and I went in for a pregnancy test and, that was it. I never went back with any of my pregnancies.
Speaker 1
And previous to this decision, what what had been yours and your partner's exposure to birth? I mean, did you know anybody who had had normal physiological birth? Did you have a positive birth? We knew.
Speaker 3
I What I knew was basically, you know, my mother had talked to me from an early age about birth. She had explained it to me, and I just the thing that stood out in my mind was the episiotomy. -Mm. -It was You know, she said, and then they make a little cut, and I'm like, oh, my God. -Yeah. -And what I thought as a child. And I remember she was trying to speak about it in a calm way. But I was just horrified, and I remember thinking, I'm just not gonna have children. And I really was not one to fantasize about having children. Growing up, I thought about a career. I thought of myself as, you know, a liberated woman. And, I just didn't see I I really didn't think much about motherhood at all. And then I remember reading childbirth without fear, and I remember the maternal feelings just surfacing. Like, suddenly, they were there. And I think the fear had just blocked those feelings. And so as soon as I was able to eliminate a little bit of that fear, there were those feelings, like, oh, my God. I wanna have a baby. And, you know, I really didn't think about this until, you know, the night that I met my husband and he gave me a copy of Childbirth Without Fear. Like, he was reading this book.
Speaker 1
That's so cool.
Speaker 2
He was
Speaker 3
interested he was interested in birth trauma.
Speaker 2
And
Speaker 3
so he had come across this book and he was like, you know, birth doesn't have to be traumatic. And, he felt that birth trauma sort of sets you up you know, you get this idea in your head that life is difficult and traumatic. And so it sort of sets the tone for future experiences. So if you can have a a trauma free birth, that you're not gonna have all the anxiety and the problems that so many of us have that, you know, so so let's figure out then how how can we not have a traumatic birth.
Speaker 1
Yeah. One one of the things you pointed out in the in the beginning half of the book was making that connection between babies who are born on drugs, you know, I e epidural morphine, fentanyl, you know, whatever it is, that, that connection between that and drug addiction later in life. And that that really blew me away because it's so obvious, but it's something that
Speaker 3
Right.
Speaker 1
You know, doesn't really get talked about because epidurals are painted as this totally get out of pain free card and totally harmless, and it doesn't affect anything. You know, but the reality is that imprinting that you discuss of a baby receiving the implicit, you know, memory, the the the message that when when we as a team get stressed out, we turn to narcotics, you know, and and we're gonna numb we're going to literally numb the pain, literally.
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 1
And then and then we're surprised that we have this culture of drug addiction and pharmaceutical, you know, addiction and and numbing the pain, you know, is just a a a fascinating correlation that that needs to get more conversation.
Speaker 3
Right.
Speaker 1
So so you're pregnant. You decide to go unassisted. It doesn't sound like you had the most support from your from your family or community, but you guys did it anyway. And,
Speaker 3
right.
Speaker 1
Will you talk to me a little bit about about about your births? I'd love to hear, you know, an overview of them. As I remember it, it was the first one was the two of you, and then the second one was a unexpected breach.
Speaker 3
Right. Yes. So the first one, was a face first, which and I didn't even really think about that. When I had told someone about my first birth and I said I felt John I felt his face at my perineum, and somebody said, Oh, he was a face presentation. And I thought, Oh, yeah. I guess I hadn't really thought about that. -Yeah. -You know? And even at the time, I wasn't thinking, Oh, I shouldn't be feeling a face. You know? It just didn't I mean, I had read Spiritual Midwifery. I had read Childbirth Without Fear. But I just wasn't thinking
Speaker 2
that
Speaker 3
babies are technically not supposed to be born face first. But, but, you know, I had I went into labor with him about three in the afternoon, and, I just sort of went about my life, and we had a few friends that wanted to be there. We had a filmmaker who had been interviewing us, and, he worked at the university, and he wanted to be there, so we called him. And then another friend of ours was staying with us and, a male. And so he I think he was sleeping outside in his truck. And, you know, this was nineteen
Speaker 1
Yeah, I was just gonna say hippies. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We were hippies. This was
Speaker 3
nineteen So, and so, and then my, my former boyfriend and his new boyfriend
Speaker 1
Nice. Had wanted to be there. -So -It was you and all men, right?
Speaker 3
It was me and, what is it, five men?
Speaker 1
-That's amazing.
Speaker 3
-Like, let's see, the filmmaker, my boyfriend, his man, our friend, yeah, and my husband. Yeah, so me and five men.
Speaker 1
-How funny.
Speaker 3
-And, but and, you know, those were the people that wanted to be there. -Yeah. -So we just had everybody come over. It was probably around midnight by the time you know, when everybody got there, I think. And we all just were kind of hanging out. We everybody was smoking pot, and I decided I I was in the bathroom. I was sitting on the toilet, and, everybody's kinda in there with me. And I decide that because that's the most comfortable place for me to be. -Sure. -And so I decide, Okay, I'm gonna take one hit of pot, because I hadn't been smoking I I had smoked during my pregnancy somewhat. And I decided I would take one hit during my labor, and I took one hit, and as I breathed it out, he just started coming out. -Wow. -So -Do you feel like it helps? Yeah, I do. You know? And I never did it again in any of my other births. But I do feel like, you know, that's how I felt at the time. And it's a natural substance, and I'm, you know, I'm pro marijuana. So Well,
Speaker 1
and, I mean, also, like, give me a break to anyone who judges that, because the first thing they offer you at the hospital is morphine. Right. You know? It's like, don't do anything, and then when you show up, we're gonna literally give you hardcore narcotics.
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 1
Right. You know? So absolutely. And, you know, we I see wine a lot at at, home births as well. And, you know, especially towards the end of the labor, I mean, it it's it's like anything that's gonna help just help me drop down and and let it happen is gonna be great.
Speaker 3
Right. So I you know, when I breathed it out and I just felt and I think my water broke while I was on the toilet. And then it was, like, right after that, and I then I reached down after I breathed it out and I felt his face. And I had, I remember a friend telling me, Don't give birth on the
Speaker 1
toilet, because,
Speaker 3
you know, she thought, Okay, the baby could fall in the toilet, which is which it can happen, but, so that was my motivation for getting off of the toilet. And so I walked over to the bed but I didn't tell anybody that the baby was coming. And so the filmmaker backed up and turned off the camera to let me by.
Speaker 2
-And then -Oh, no.
Speaker 3
So, so then I got onto the bed and I was on my hands and knees. I was about to turn over and I heard a voice, an inner voice, say very strongly, Don't turn over. And then, like a second later, John just came flying out in a true, I think, fetus ejection reflex that Michelle Odont talks about. You know, I'd say, my body gave maybe three or four semi involuntary pushes. And then, maybe when I was on the toilet. And then, as soon as I got to the bed, then he just flew out. -Mm -And my husband reached out and caught him in midair. And I just heard him say, It's a boy. And because we had thought it was a girl, so we had been calling him Elizabeth all during the pregnancy, so
Speaker 1
That's funny. I bet he still would respond subconsciously to that. Right, right.
Speaker 3
And so, you know, and then about maybe forty five minutes later or so, I got up, you know, and and delivered the placenta, I think into the toilet, and then they just scooped it up and took it out to the woods and
Speaker 1
Oh, I love the involvement of the of the men because, obviously, you know, society really socializes men to be very grossed out by this stuff and to be very timid around birth. And, I I loved reading that line in your book that one of the men and you never name them. You just call them the men. And he's like, one of one of the men, you know, scoops up my my afterbirth and took it outside, and I just I I could totally picture this. I could totally picture your birth just with this group of, you know, totally engaged men who were supporting you and and so curious about it and, probably really experiencing it as this very mammalian, you know, event, like like a National Geographic, you know, show, you know, that that wasn't gross at all.
Speaker 2
It was
Speaker 1
just so amazing and interesting and new and, yeah.
Speaker 3
I love it. I think it probably was, you know, it had a real impact on all of that.
Speaker 1
How could it not? Of course.
Speaker 3
Right. And I remember I spoke at a birth conference once, and a man came up to me, and he said, You had five men at your birth. -That's perverted. -What? -That's perverted.
Speaker 1
-You know, it's
Speaker 3
-Oh, get off. But, you know, none of them were there because they had any You know, it wasn't, like, a sexual intercourse at all, you know? So, so anyhow, yeah, so that was my first birth, and and it was just, you know, such a great experience. And so And
Speaker 1
then and then we we get into the just horrible story of the child protective services.
Speaker 3
Right.
Speaker 1
And I did wanna touch on that because, you know, so many women that free birth intersect with CPS, you know, whether whether it's, you know, a very common story that I'm hearing is they birth at home and then they get nervous that they have a retained placenta, and so they go to the hospital for help. Or Right. Another common one is they just wanna go to the hospital and have baby checked out.
Speaker 3
Right.
Speaker 1
And then before they know it, you know, they're admitted, and CPS is is questioning them. Right.
Speaker 3
Right. So And I think it is it's kind of I see it in people that are they're sort of on the fence. Like, they want an unassisted birth, but they're not sure if they you know, they they're sort of there, sort of not, and they want it the baby's born, everything went well, maybe, and, you know, but they they do. They wanna you know, maybe I better get the baby checked out just to make sure.
Speaker 1
Well, the error and this is so unfortunate, but the error that they're making is they are thinking the hospital is their ally.
Speaker 3
Right.
Speaker 1
Right. And and, obviously, ideally, we'd all be living in a world where we could birth however we want and use the medical model to assist us. Yeah. You know? But that is not the deal.
Speaker 3
And I think, you know, people, unassisted birth is legal, but a lot of people don't know that. So and a lot of people who are in social services don't know that. And, you know, what I do hear is when people are hassled by social services, it's it's, like, ninety nine point nine percent of the time, like, it blows over.
Speaker 2
-Mm
Speaker 3
-Like, everything is okay. But it's still difficult to go through.
Speaker 1
It's horrifying.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yes. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1
I mean, yeah, I've talked to quite a few women now who have CPS show up at their door or, you know, I mean, in gosh, in your experience, it sounded like your baby was actually removed from you for, what, a week or
Speaker 2
more? Right.
Speaker 3
Yeah, for five days. -Ugh. -Now, in my in my case, I had my mother had called social services during my pregnancy, and -Oh, thanks, Mom. -Thanks. She wanted she wanted to, you know, I know her motivation was good. She wasn't really trying to report me. She wanted a nurse to come over
Speaker 1
and
Speaker 3
kind of help me. You know, that's what she wanted. She wanted a nurse, somebody that I could call if I needed to or somebody that could counsel me. And, you know, I'm a doctor's daughter. I don't know. Somebody shows up at my door and says, I'm a visiting nurse, and I'm here to help. Like, it I know nothing about social services. You know? That whole world is just so foreign to me. So when this woman comes over and says, you know, and then and she's with a social worker, We're just here, like, if you need anything. They didn't come in and say, like, You can't do this, or, This is illegal, of course, because it wasn't. But they didn't really try to discourage me from doing it. They kind of came in as, We are your friends, and we're here to help you, and tell us about yourself. And so they kind of wanted us to sort of open up to them, and which we did, and we we thought, you know, they we actually we told them all about why we were doing this. And, you know, we were happy to, like, share it with these people that seemed interested. And after the baby was born, we I called them. I said, If we had the baby, come on over. So, so the nurse came over with the social worker. And what I didn't know, you know, I didn't know about breastfeeding. David had, my husband, had actually wanted me to go to La Leche League when I was pregnant. But everybody that I was telling that I was gonna have this unassisted birth and I don't even know if we were calling it unassisted birth because I wasn't familiar you know, I didn't know the term until my publisher years later titled my book Unassisted Job Birth.
Speaker 2
And I
Speaker 3
was like, Oh, okay. I guess that's what I did. But, you know, but I did tell people that we're just gonna do it ourselves, and people were horrified. So I became very isolated during my pregnancy. -I bet. -And I actually didn't tell my parents I was pregnant until I was seven months pregnant. So they saw me when I was six months pregnant and said, You know, it's too bad you gained all this weight, because I had lost I had always been heavy, and then I I lost weight before I got pregnant. And
Speaker 2
so my
Speaker 1
mom And why did why did you withhold that information?
Speaker 3
Why didn't I tell them? Mhmm. I figured they would be horrified. You know, I'm a twenty year old college student. I've met this guy. He's ten years older than I am. You know, he's we've decided we're gonna have a baby without a doctor or midwife there, and I'm like, I'm gonna hold off on telling him as long as possible. And so I, you know, I saw them at six months, and they didn't know I was pregnant. And then at seven months, I was supposed to go to my sister's wedding, and I didn't go. And my mom figured it out. You know, I I told my sister, or maybe my sister figured You know, I said, I can't come, Sue. I put on weight. I don't feel good about myself. And then suddenly, she's like, Oh, my God. You're pregnant. -You know? -Mm -And then So my mom found out at my sister's wedding.
Speaker 1
-Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 3
-I was there. So so anyhow, you know, they had called So we'd I I didn't know about breastfeeding. I I'd never seen anyone breastfeeding. And I didn't realize that John wasn't getting a good grip on me. He just was, like, sucking on the tip of my nipple. -Mm good grip on me. He just was, like, sucking on
Speaker 2
the
Speaker 3
tip of my nipple. -Mm -And I didn't know. And so the visiting nurse, and my mother, I think, had brought up a scale. And the visiting nurse and the social worker, they said and maybe my mother, I don't know, they said they felt like he was losing too much weight. Well, I had read that babies lose weight, you
Speaker 2
know, in the
Speaker 3
first few days. And so I said, no, he's fine. And so the the visiting nurse and social worker said, we want you to take the baby to a doctor. And we said no. And so they came back with three police and they took him away. Mhmm. And so they took him to the hospital and they said, he's now in the the property. He's now the property of Boulder County Social Services.
Speaker 1
And, you know, it it that situation does bring up an interesting tools, support, education, you know, whatever, to identify that, not not that I think it's ever appropriate to take the child away, but Right. You know, of course, there needs to be a better system in place. Like, a lactation consultant could have been paired to you. Right.
Speaker 2
And there's
Speaker 1
plenty of things that should have happened never ever to cause the trauma of separation. But it does bring up, you know, that interesting kind of devil's advocate of of, you know, it is ultimately their job to make sure that the baby is safe and well. And in this Yeah. Particular situation, the baby did, you know, did, it sounds like, need need to be doing better.
Speaker 3
Right. Right.
Speaker 1
What do you think of that?
Speaker 3
I mean, I think yeah. They at that point, I I needed help. And, yes, it would have been great if somebody would have said, k. You're not you know, you're nursing improperly. Mhmm. And and the nurse Simple. Did she wrote she wrote down nursing improperly. Mhmm. And I said to her later, why didn't you tell me? And she said, I didn't think you would listen.
Speaker 1
Right.
Speaker 3
And I don't I don't know, you know, it's like I look at okay, I have my own reasons for creating that whole event. It sort of got me to take a stand. -Mm -And I basically had to decide, you know, okay, how am I going to live my life? I mean, when they now have my baby, and I better start believing in myself, or I'm not gonna, you know, I'm gonna lose my child. And and that's how I felt. I wasn't like, okay, now I'm gonna do what they say. You know, they have my child and now I'm gonna do what they say. For me, it was I better start believing in myself. But I also felt like I didn't really want to look at the medical profession as my enemy.
Speaker 1
-Mm -Mm
Speaker 3
-Um, which I see some people doing. And I I don't Like, yes, I am critical of the medical profession in my book, but I really don't go after them in a way that I've seen some people do. And I think it's I I try to be understanding. Like, most of these people are well meaning. I I just think they're misguided.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
And so Totally. You know, I don't I don't want I'm not out to, to, like, reform the medical community. You know, I I feel like I'm out to encourage people to remove themselves from it as much as possible because to me, birth is not a medical event.
Speaker 1
Right. And use it when there's something actually wrong because in every other situation, why do you go to the hospital? Because something is wrong. Right? But not when something is well. You don't just, like, go there to have them check out your heart when there's nothing going on. Right. Right. You know, you that is weird. That's a waste of time. But when something's up, we're so grateful that that model exists for
Speaker 2
kind
Speaker 1
of the limited the limited scope of what they could really do.
Speaker 3
Right. Right. And so I think, you know, I after that, I felt like, oh, here was you know, I They took him They put him in the hospital. They said he was dehydrated. They gave him fluids. And they A nurse worked with me for, like, half an hour. I don't And she's like, He's not getting a good grip on your nipple, and here's how it should be. And suddenly John latched on, and that was it. -And I never had a problem again. -Nice. And it's like, it was so simple. But I think it was just one of these things that it was this big drama that sort of had play out. I wrote in my book about a dream I had after they took John the night that they took him and that I dreamt that I was, that my father was there. Or maybe I was in the hospital, I don't know. And they, my father said, These are my rules, and you are going to live by them. Now sign this.
Speaker 2
-And I
Speaker 3
signed it.
Speaker 1
-Yeah.
Speaker 3
And I thought, Okay, there was a a part of me that was really afraid to take that step and say, I'm gonna I'm gonna give birth the way I wanna give birth. And I think, you know, the thing is that when people sort of give in and they say, You know what? Well, my mother's too scared and my friends are all afraid. You know? And so I think I'm just gonna go ahead and have the kind of birth that they want. -Mm -I'm gonna go ahead this time and I'm gonna do it in the hospital. It's only The birth is only the first challenge because then you're gonna deal with people who don't think -Everything. Yeah. It's like sooner or later, you know, there are gonna be people that don't think you should do long term breastfeeding. -Exactly.
Speaker 1
Where does the Or vaccine or circumcise. -Right. -Where does the line -Right. At what point are you going to start making decisions about your parenting?
Speaker 3
Right, and absolutely. And I feel like I That's why I felt like I put myself in a position where And I was ready to go to the hospital and steal him. -I -I
Speaker 2
I I
Speaker 1
I I I I I I
Speaker 2
I I I I
Speaker 1
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
Speaker 3
I I took this little gym bag and I'm like
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3
If I if it looks like I'm not gonna get him back because they were talking about putting him in a foster home, I'm like, I'm stealing him and we're going on the lambs.
Speaker 1
Well, and that that really speaks to, you know, the the desperation of of a mother who, you know, is forced to be separated from their child and that, you know, obviously, objectively, that would get you in so much more trouble and probably, like, actually cement the fact that you're not, like, a suitable parent, and then you'd lose your kid if real. But in the moment, all that matters is that primal mama bear, I will do anything to get my young back. And, you know, we see this, you know, like with incarcerated women. You know, a very common story of why incarcerated, pregnant or pregnant women are incarcerated is they do a last ditch effort to steal money for diapers or to steal money or
Speaker 3
to,
Speaker 1
you know, return to the streets if they're, prostituting. You know, some sort of final desperate attempt so that they can scrape some money together before the baby comes. And Right. You know, it gives it gives, I think, more context to hear you say that because, you know, you're not a woman of the street, you know, and that Right. You know, to hear that you were bringing a gym bag to literally steal your baby bag. I mean, it's not funny. It's actually incredibly funny.
Speaker 2
Yeah. But
Speaker 3
I mean, we might as well laugh about it now.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Exactly. It was a long time ago. Yeah. And thankfully, you didn't have to do that. And thankfully,
Speaker 2
you
Speaker 1
know, you you received your child back quite quickly.
Speaker 3
Right.
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's Right.
Speaker 3
It's wild. So we did get him back after five days. You know, they they gave him back. They said they said they wanted to continue to counsel us, which we were like, Fine, great, whatever.
Speaker 1
-Yeah, whatever.
Speaker 3
-And then But eventually, they started getting very nosy and but we still had to go to court when he was five months old. -Ugh. -And so, but actually, you know, they looked, they went so overboard when they went to court to try to show how insane we are. They they brought in a psychiatrist that said we were insane. Wow. You know? And we had never met the psychiatrist. Oh.
Speaker 1
And the
Speaker 3
whole thing, they went so overboard that the judge threw it out of court.
Speaker 2
Thank you.
Speaker 3
And I was never bothered again. You know? I got all
Speaker 2
that information.
Speaker 1
I was gonna ask you because then you went on to have, you know, many more unassisted births. And did CPS ever knock on your door again?
Speaker 3
Never. Never. And we and, you know, and as as you know, we we lost a baby. Mhmm. So even when we lost the baby, he had a congenital heart defect and and died within a few hours of his birth. Even then, social services never came over. And I sought them out. I mean, not social services. I did contact the coroner
Speaker 2
-Mm
Speaker 3
-because, because someone had said to me, Oh, are they gonna put you in jail now? -Mm. -And I was like, Oh, my God. Am I gonna be blamed for this baby's death? -Oh, gosh. -And I I contacted the coroner, and he said, This baby just never developed the body to survive, and it wasn't your fault. He wouldn't have lived regardless of where he would have been born. And, you know, I put all that in my book, and it and it's you know, you look on the Internet, and people are slamming me. You know, it's like, here oh, you want a reason to discount everything that Laura Shamley says? Here it is. Really?
Speaker 2
She
Speaker 3
lost a baby, you know?
Speaker 2
And it's
Speaker 3
like, yes, I babies sometimes die.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And like you said, you you then, you know, and if this happens, that you then went on to know a woman who had a similar situation, who birthed in the hospital, and and, you know, that child passed as well. But, you know, you can bet your butt she didn't get any crap for for the way that she did it.
Speaker 3
Right. Now, that was my, you know Yeah, my aunt, my father's sister, and it actually wasn't that far, before I had my baby, but she had a baby with a congenital heart defect in the hospital, and that baby ended up dying. And, of course, there was never anything said, you know. But with me, people feel it's fair
Speaker 2
to say,
Speaker 3
you know,
Speaker 2
like Yeah.
Speaker 1
And it is it's so interesting because it really it really speaks to this very confused stance that people have who where, you know, like, let's say Republicans who wanna have, you know, power, you know, on autonomy and get the government out of your your business and all of this stuff, but they also feel like they have the right to speak on the behalf of your fetus and and, you know, to make these decisions for for some woman they've never met. But it's this interesting, very confused, blurry line of, the you know, there's this, like, presentation that that we should get to do what we want and have autonomy, which Republicans fundamentally, you know, believe and that the government should stay out of their, you know, personal life choices. And then also and especially, you know, very religious people. But then if you make a, what I would call your your birth, and and many free births, women that I'm talking to make deeply spiritual choices to, really surrender and sit with what God has to offer, you know, in their birth.
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 1
And what your child's journey is. And if you do that outside the medical model, you know, you're considered a kook. When really
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 1
You're doing the exact thing that they're actually fighting for. Right. Right. It's just so interesting.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, it brings up so many issues.
Speaker 2
And I
Speaker 3
think, and and what I I don't really identify as Republican or Democrat.
Speaker 1
I mean
Speaker 2
I'm sort
Speaker 3
of more of an independent, but I do think it's interesting that when home birth legislation comes up, it's usually supported by Republicans. And that reproductive rights,
Speaker 2
you have
Speaker 1
to -But they compartmentalize.
Speaker 3
-supporting reproductive rights up until the point of birth. -Mm -But there are many people who will say, Yes, you should have the right to have an abortion. No, you should not have the right to have an assisted birth.
Speaker 2
-Mm -You know?
Speaker 3
So, it's It's, okay. -It's so weird. -It can be frustrating.
Speaker 1
-Totally. It's very frustrating.
Speaker 2
But I
Speaker 3
think, yeah, it is. It's my body, and, you know, this is how I am choosing to have my children, and I believe I have every right to give birth. And is there one way of birth that's gonna ensure that a baby never dies? No.
Speaker 1
-Of course not.
Speaker 3
-There just isn't.
Speaker 1
-Yeah. I mean -Yeah. Absolutely. And and, you know, what would happen to this patriarchal system if we actually trusted women as adult mothers, you know, to to make intuitive decisions. You know, something that I'm always going back to is, you know, one of my biggest, biggest triggers with the obstetrical model and and the midwifery model many times. One of my biggest issues is that anybody thinks that they can act like they care more about the wellness and health and survival of their of somebody else's child. You know? Yeah. And just how totally degrading and and disrespectful that is to the mother and completely wrong.
Speaker 3
Right.
Speaker 1
Because I have I have personally never met a woman who doesn't care a thousand times more about their birth, their body, their baby's, you know, health, etcetera. And it it's it's it's really it's a very polarizing, you know, concept that's incredibly disempowering to act like, like you like we already mentioned, you know, to act like they know better and, you know, but until they until you go home. And then once you go home, you have to deal with this baby. You're totally not you have not been empowered to, you know, take care of. Right. Yeah. It's really a trip. So so let's keep moving on through your birth. So so then we we have we come to I believe was the was the foot falling out of your body.
Speaker 2
Right. Right.
Speaker 3
So, you know, I kinda feel like I kind of feel like I have this sort of, you know, been there, done that. Totally. I've had these other all these experiences, like, okay, face presentation, foot footling breach, you know, baby being taken away, baby dying, like Ugh. So that The whole thing. People could say, like, well, what about this? I'm like, been there, done that, you know? Like, I don't know. But I I did not have textbook births. So, but, yeah, my second one, I had I I was planning on giving birth on my hands and knees because that's how John was born and I was like, that worked so well. And then I had a dream and and as I say in my book, I don't believe every dream is prophetic or, you know, sometimes dreams are symbolic, but every so often I have a dream that I feel like is presenting me with a valid message. Well, they all present us with messages, but it's just how we interpret them, you know? So this one I felt was was literal. I was watching a woman giving birth. She was catching the baby herself and she was standing up over a little plastic baby bathtub. And I heard a voice in the dream say, Tell her to remember not to do too much. And I thought, Oh, I understand what the voice is saying. It's, you know, it's a matter of sort of just getting out of the way and not doing anything, which is pretty much what I did with John. But, so I decided then okay I'm gonna just get out my little plastic baby bathtub and I'm gonna stand over it like I saw the woman. And so I did have a friend who I think it was one of the men who was at my first birth. He had had a dream that he saw the baby inside me standing right side up but I didn't necessarily see that as oh then I'm gonna have a quilting breech baby. But, so I didn't know it was gonna be the first. I just knew that I wanted to be standing and that I was going to do nothing to interfere. So I went into labor with him one morning about seven thirty, started feeling contractions. We actually had sex and labor with him, and I hadn't read anything about, you know, the benefits of having sex and labor at that time. But, and then I got up and I was, walking across the room. I thought, well, I'll take a shower. And I was walking across the room and my water broke. And after my water broke, I didn't feel any pain at all. I just it was like the only way I even knew I was having contractions was to put my hand up inside myself. I could feel my muscles contracting. Wow. So, because with John, I felt some pain and I also felt some pain when John came out because face presentation is not the easiest, you know?
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And, yeah, I've only seen a couple of them but they're they're I mean, I guess if it's your only point of reference for, you know, I who knows? If you just yeah. You're just over there thinking it's normal versus if you had a team of people with worried looks and talking about this face presentation and it might need to be a c section. I mean, gosh, you probably would have felt a lot more pain. So with that second birth, you know, did you when you were saying that, that you didn't feel the contractions, I mean, other than going up inside, you could, couldn't you tell externally that they were happening or not at all?
Speaker 3
I as far as, like, was did my belly look like it was
Speaker 1
Like, did you really not feel them?
Speaker 3
Oh, I really didn't. After my water broke, I was not I was not feeling them.
Speaker 1
That's amazing.
Speaker 3
So or I was not feeling pain. Now, I, maybe I seem to remember that I just wasn't I don't know, they weren't painful. So if they, if I felt any contractions, I, I would assume I just wasn't feeling them because I don't know how you would, I wasn't feeling pleasurable contractions.
Speaker 1
Right.
Speaker 3
You know, the way, like, like with an orgasm, I wasn't feeling pleasurable for contraction. So, yeah, I do remember I just didn't feel anything. And,
Speaker 2
I didn't feel anything.
Speaker 1
Just with the breech, you get a little bit of it's a little easier without having that head at the bottom.
Speaker 3
Right. Right. There's no head pressing on there. So, yeah, I just remember feeling up inside and, like, oh, yeah, my muscles are contracting. So I'm just kind of going about my life. And, but I took out because with my first birth, he was born right after my water broke. And so I figured, Okay, my water has just broken. I assume a baby's coming soon. So I'm standing there, and that's when a foot comes out. And so, and so David looked at me he's like you know what do you want to do? Like do you want to go to the hospital? And I just said no. You know I mean I the thought of going to the hospital was so terrifying to me and I just felt like now I'm gonna I was a I'm a big believer in belief suggestions, affirmations. So we just said affirmations you know that I'm relaxed, I trust my body, I love myself, I believe in myself, I believe I have inner help and And because I'm not in any pain, it's like it's kind of easy to just stand there with this foot hanging out of you. Sure. You know, if you don't panic. And he was wiggling his toes and, you know, flexing his foot. And I just remember my two year old John saying, you know, what's that?
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's a trip.
Speaker 3
And I said, yeah. I said, that's the baby. And then, then his foot just kept getting lower and lower. And then at some point his other foot popped out. And then something inside me just said the time was right. And I gave one push pull. And I've heard people say I remember reading a story about a woman who had a foot length breech. And she was telling the woman she was telling the midwife, I feel like I need to pull. And the midwife is saying, No, do not pull on the baby. Well, and the baby ended up dying in that case. And I, in my case, I felt like pulling and it wasn't a strong pull it was just a kind of one push pull and whatever pressure I was exerting it was very gentle but this is what my inner self was telling me to do. And I just sort of pulled him out. And, and that was two hours after I felt my first contraction.
Speaker 1
Amazing.
Speaker 3
So, and you know, I didn't with my first birth, I had some afterpains. I didn't have them with the other ones. So, and I just I was just like just so elated. I know. That's incredible. And I when I wrote about it, you know, I asked David about it like twelve years later when I was writing in my book. I asked him something about that birth and he's like I don't know I wasn't there. He's like, he said he was in the other room.
Speaker 1
It's making me think of, did you see the April the giraffe thing, Birth?
Speaker 3
I didn't. I still need to see that.
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, it what was what I one of the things I loved about it, you know, it was it it was an unassisted birth, you know, minus a million people watching, but, you know, they didn't minus that whole observation piece. You know, no you know, nobody touched the giraffe. She was by herself in her, like, pen or whatever. But, Yeah. The it was a footling breech. And so the baby Right. Her her foot, her leg hung out of her for quite some time. Like an hour or something, a very long time. Wow. And it was it was it just I totally got that image when you're explaining the birth of your second because it was this, this foot that kinda would move around and it would just kinda, you'd see more and more and more of it. And then eventually, the other, the other leg came out. And it, it was, I'm totally picturing the similarities.
Speaker 3
Right. Yeah. Yeah. With my birth story, maybe I should put a picture of her. Like, well, this is pretty much how I
Speaker 2
Uh-huh.
Speaker 1
Exactly. You gotta you gotta watch it. Yeah. It's you know, and it's
Speaker 2
it's,
Speaker 1
the reason it's cool is because it's just a normal birth. Right? And and it's the same thing with with all of these rebirth stories that I love. You know? So far, most unassisted birth stories are pretty simple. You know? They they go in labor, they move around a little bit, they get some intuition, and the baby slides out. You know? It's not it's not these complicated stories. Right. So let's so then we're on to your third birth, which is is that the one that you did alone again?
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah. And then you just, like, walked over somewhere and brought the baby to David?
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, he had David and I had gotten into an argument during the birth.
Speaker 1
Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 3
And so it was, like, the stupidest argument. And so But you but you had wanted
Speaker 1
Is it true that you had wanted to do it by yourself intentionally as a personal challenge?
Speaker 3
Yeah. I just kind of thought, you know, I and this is how I felt with all my births as far as not necessarily saying this is how it's gonna be. Like, okay, I'm gonna have my children there or I'm not gonna have my children there or I'm gonna do it myself or I'm gonna have my husband catch. I just kind of like, you know what, if if I'm alone I'll be okay.
Speaker 1
Of course, yeah.
Speaker 3
And if David's there that's fine. So but it had entered my mind that it that I felt like you know I think if I'm alone I'll be fine and maybe that would be kind of interesting. But I wasn't gonna chase David away. And I did have a friend who lived next door and she was like, you know, if you want me to come over, that's fine. But, you know, I went into I went into labor with with Joy and I because my other labors were pretty quick and especially my second labor had been two hours so I started feeling contractions with her and and I was like okay baby's coming well twenty four hours later baby's still not coming. And so, now eventually I realized she was posterior. So she was facing towards my front rather than
Speaker 1
You really did get it all. In my back. Right, right. Of course she was. Yeah.
Speaker 3
So but, you know, and I'm kind of working with myself mentally, like, why what the hell is taking so long?
Speaker 1
And did you experience the the traditional back labor pains, or how was the sensations for you?
Speaker 3
I don't remember back labor. I remember pain. Mhmm. So I did have pain with her whereas, you know, Willie's birth, my second had been so easy. And so I did have some pain with her. Not pain like where okay I'm going to the hospital. Sure. Pain where I cried. I cried. He used to go over and study at the library on campus. And so that was his normal morning routine. And so he, you know, he got up. I'm still in labor and I'm not really I hadn't been talking to him about the labor really. I mean, I think he knew I was feeling some contractions, but, he got up and he left. And he, and it was like as soon as he walked out I was like, yes.
Speaker 1
Oh nice.
Speaker 3
Like it was a, it was a relief to have him leave. So Because of the tension? At that point. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, brilliant man, lots of problems. Very thankful he turned me on to this, but, no. We're not together anymore.
Speaker 1
So Oh, okay. Okay.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. So, as soon as he left, I the contractions picked up. And I took a shower and, but I was crying in the shower and then I took out my little baby bathtub and as I wrote my book then the phone rang and I I answered it and it was, I was running a donut delivery service that I had started and I was running that out of my home. And so it was the lady at the University of Colorado calling to give me my donut order. And I was like,
Speaker 1
I love that you answered the phone.
Speaker 3
Yeah. And she's like, you know, well I was like very dedicated to my business and I was like, you know, I'm in labor. I can't, you know, I can't take this now. And she's panicking because she's like, who am I gonna give this donut order to? You know, and I don't think she realized. Right. I don't think she realized, you know, she's probably envisioning me at the hospital and, you know, with my epidural or something. And, you know, why can't I just take her order?
Speaker 2
So she's
Speaker 1
You mean that you don't you don't think she was envisioning you being alone, unassisted with
Speaker 3
other kids? Right. Right. Answering the phone. Right. And so, I mean, it did kind of add some levity to the situation. Like, I'm just like, I can't, you know, I'll call you back later. And so I hung up and my kids were sleeping. So, I just took out the little bathtub and then Joy started coming out and I my water hadn't broken. So I looked down and I saw her face looking up at me through the water bag. Wow. So I could just see this film, you know, just looking at her eyes and I mean it was like really just such a spectacular moment. I mean I really feel like it was sort of the most spectacular moment of my life.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 3
Just because I felt such a connection to her you know that I remember feeling like we were the only two people in the world. And I remember feeling like this is the most wonderful gift I've ever received. And I just so we just looked at each other through the water bag and then it popped and she slid out into my hands. And I just was, you know, I was elated. I, so I put her, I just put her down in the baby bath, I mean in the, I had a little bouncy chair and I put her in the bouncy chair. I think I wrapped her up, put her in the bouncy chair. And I think, you know, the placenta came out, I don't know, maybe within fifteen minutes or something. I birthed that into the bathtub. And, and then I went and laid down on the couch and I just started hearing, like, ocean waves and bells. And I just was blissed out. I was so blissed out. And I, you know, I didn't have afterpings with her either. And then the boys woke up and I remember John made me a glass of chocolate milk when
Speaker 2
he was
Speaker 3
four. And
Speaker 1
so cute.
Speaker 3
And then, I said you know let's go find David because we knew he was over on campus and that he might be having breakfast at, at the cafeteria there. And so I just was, you know, I wasn't in pain and it had been I mean, the the birth, the actual birth had been pretty quick. Like, the labor was long, but it wasn't like I was sore or anything from, you know, with any of my births, I there was never this pushing. I'm pushing for an hour or whatever, you know.
Speaker 1
And there's something, you know, obviously to be said of because you were alone, you had no other energies to contend with, even on a psychic level. You got to be Right. You got to experience what a hundred percent presence and companionship with this little girl being born where there was nothing else. No eyes on you, no voices. Right. I mean, even just your energetic body didn't have to organize anybody else's energy. And so Right. It it doesn't surprise me that you then got to, you know, look down and have this eye contact and feel like you were the only two in the world, because that that is true, you know, undisturbed birth.
Speaker 3
Right. Right. I mean, yeah. To have that connection. I mean, I felt like I later, I I I said I feel like I touched the eternal. That's how it felt. I touched the eternal. And even if I never have that kind of experience again, which I don't know if I've ever really had that kind of experience, but it's like, okay, once in my life I had that kind of experience of feeling total connection with another human being and it was just spectacular, you know. So I mean it forever changed me. And even though, you know, all of my births I think changed me and I do remember feeling elated, you know, with my other births but especially with that one. I think just because and it was such a contrast to you know everything that had been going on before and the fighting and the tension and then just like immediate relief and total connection and triumph, feelings of triumph. And so we, you know, then after a little while I laid down for a little while and then I said okay let's get dressed and we got dressed and I had this little white wicker doll carriage, that my mother-in-law had given me and so we put Joy in the doll carriage and we and it was November. It was November seventeenth. This was nineteen eighty two and but the temperature was in the 70s and you know this was in Boulder, Colorado and we just walked over to the campus, and I just felt like I'm floating on air. He had come home. After we left, somehow we missed him. We walked over there, and he had come home, and he saw the placenta in the back of And so then he went back over to the campus and we were we were having breakfast we just went ahead and we were having breakfast there with his friends and then he assumed that's where I probably
Speaker 1
was.
Speaker 3
And so, and then he sat down and had breakfast with us.
Speaker 1
So Nothing like coming home looking for your family and just finding a placenta in the bathtub.
Speaker 3
Right. And it's like, you know, I think somebody asked him at one point, well you saw the placenta, did it occur to you that maybe something had gone wrong or she was in the hospital? He's like, no. Yeah. So I mean we were so confident then,
Speaker 2
you
Speaker 3
know, and I mean and now I guess, you know, life, forty years of life, you know, I've certainly had my struggles so maybe I, in some areas I'm not as confident. But back back then I was like, you know, he was like, of course everything went fine.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. You know?
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And I mean, I'm sure that your confidence in your birth experiences, you know, how do I say this? It doesn't I think that it gets painted a lot that, oh, if you're free birthing, you're just, like, a fearless, totally confident person in the world, and not necessarily at all. But it is it is one thing that, you know, you're willing to be courageous in, you know, and it's it's one
Speaker 3
pillar of your life.
Speaker 1
And that doesn't mean that there aren't struggles in other areas, but it is Oh, yeah. You know, thankfully, it is something that you have in your reference point, you know, that you can say, I did this. Right. I did this. I trusted myself, and I'm sure that influences other Right. Aspects of your life.
Speaker 3
Absolutely. I mean, my my mother has said to me how surprised she was that I have done this because she said I was always such a timid child. And, you know, they would make fun of me that we'd go jeeping and I would I walked behind the jeep. I was so scared. Or we'd go sailing. We had a sailboat with a cabin and I'd be down in the cabin crying, and the boat would be leaning, you know, and then we'd go skiing, you know. And my family was always very physical. Mhmm. And I was just always so terrified. And so this was, like, not in keeping with my personality at all. But it just always felt so right to me. Mhmm. And it did give me it gave me a tremendous amount of confidence in myself.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And it's internal strength versus like, you know, hope the jeep doesn't tip over. Right. You know? Right. That's a little more external. I mean, that's I can see how that's different. And and so then and and then, you know, I I thought the just the story of your fourth birth and and fourth experience was so powerful and so interesting. And, you know, while I'm not, this is the the story of the the baby that you lost, and while I'm not surprised that you've gotten, you know, backlash because the Internet is cruel, I really, really resonated with what what little you did share of the birth, and and I was wondering if you could speak to that a bit.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, you know, I got pregnant with him, and I was using mental birth control in the
Speaker 1
What does that mean, by the way? I wanted to ask you. Does that just mean were you using fertility awareness at all, or were you just No.
Speaker 3
No. I was Just going,
Speaker 1
I will not get pregnant.
Speaker 3
That's right.
Speaker 2
That's right.
Speaker 3
Awesome. And I know people who have successfully done that.
Speaker 1
Uh-huh.
Speaker 3
And, but I think my desire to have babies was so strong that it sort of overrode my desire not to have babies. Well, and it works most
Speaker 1
of the time. Right?
Speaker 3
Yeah. So I got pregnant, with him and, I was you know, I had a husband that had emotional problems. I was the breadwinner. I was pretty much the breadwinner for the entire land, you know, since my husband, he broke his ankle when John was a couple months old, when my first baby was a couple months old, and he never went back to work. He was sort of a scholar. He read books. And he's the one that, you know, got me into all this. But, he taught me a lot. But he never was really able to go out there and deal with the world. And, so I was always the breadwinner. And so here I am, you know, I've created this donut delivery service that, you know, is successful. But I've got three kids and we also had decided we were gonna homeschool and but I was doing the homeschooling and it was just very tough. And so when I got pregnant, with my fourth child, I really felt like, okay, I'm allowing this baby to leave. I said belief suggestions. I'm letting go of the baby. It's okay. Now is not the time to have another baby. Financially, it's just too too stressful. I can't, you know, I can't deal with this. And I didn't miscarry. And so I didn't feel comfortable at that time having an abortion, and I was terrified of having an abortion.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
And so I just figured, okay, I'll make the best the best of it. And then one night when I think I was around eight months pregnant, and I'm not exactly sure, I never really, you know, I was nursing through all I nursed straight for, like, eleven years. So, I never really knew when I got pregnant with any of my kids, other than my first. I knew the night that I got pregnant, because as I talk about in my book, I had a very vivid dream about it. And John actually was born on his due date. You know, it's like November thirtieth, I had the dream. And August twenty first was his due date, and bam, he was there. The other ones, I never really knew. So but I felt like I was maybe eight months. But I had a dream at that I saw a woman giving birth and she caught the baby herself and someone said she finally let go of the baby. And in the morning I went into labor and he was born. It was a pretty, it was a short labor. I took a bath and then I stood up. He wasn't born in the bathwater but my water broke and there was meconium in the water which had never happened before. And then he came out and he wasn't breathing. And I breathed into him and got him going. And then, but a couple hours later he died. He had his, there were, it looked to me like the bones in his chest were, they were kind of sticking out a little bit. I've since read that that actually is not that uncommon, that it goes away, on its own. But, so but I don't know. I I felt like, you know, I breathe once I breathed into him, I thought, okay, he's fine. And
Speaker 1
And did something feel, like, off to you at all during the pregnancy once you accepted the pregnancy and, or even during the birth? Did did it was there ever a a No. No. Intuitive flag or
Speaker 3
No. No. Just that, you know, I I was very stressed.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 3
And I felt like this is, you know, I'm now feeling the pressure of taking care of I'm already taking care of a family of five. Mhmm. And I'm twenty I can't remember whether I was twenty seven years old. Yeah, I think I was twenty seven years old. And so, so, you know, but I got him dressed and David, had been gone. I think he came home and, and then I thought John was sleeping. Not John, Nicholas was sleeping. And we I went to change his diaper, I think. And then David looked at him. He's like, Is he dead? He wasn't moving. And he actually had, like, a little bit of a smile on his face. And, the baby did, you know? And I I kind of, you know, shook him a little bit and we realized, okay, he's, I think he's, he's gone. And we called the paramedics and they came out and they tried to revive him and they took him to the hospital and they couldn't revive him. And, and the people at the hospital were all very nice to me and they just said he had, when the autopsy came back, they said he had a congenital heart defect, influenza, pneumonia, and sepsis.
Speaker 1
-Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 3
-And they said, you know, and that's basically probably why I gave birth to him earlier. -Totally.
Speaker 2
-It's sort
Speaker 1
of a,
Speaker 3
you know, a spontaneous miscarriage. It's just that I was fairly far along. And I, and I really, to this day, I can't really say how far along I was exactly, but
Speaker 2
Were you,
Speaker 1
were you transparent with the hospital about your unassisted birth and, and your prenatal care? Yeah,
Speaker 3
I never said, yeah, no, I mean, I never I never tried to hide anything and I no one ever I mean I just was treated so kindly and people were so you know we we called the ambulance they the ambulance people I mean, eventually, I got bills, you know, from the hospital
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 3
And from the ambulance company. The ambulance company dropped the charges. The hospital, turned me over to a collection agency. So they weren't quite as understanding.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 3
But, but the coroner, you know, I as I said, I had called and he just, you know, no one they really felt that that, nothing They didn't feel anything could have been done. So And actually, they had Police came right after, you know, when, after they came and took him to the hospital. Then police came over. And what's interesting is that I had, I'd given birth in the bathtub and after they took the baby and then, I cleaned the bathtub. I think this is Oh no, it wasn't after they took the baby. It was after I'd given birth and he was, you know, just lying in the baby chair, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna clean out the bathtub. So I think, you know, when police came over and maybe they're expecting this bloody scene
Speaker 1
Right. When
Speaker 3
they see this pristine bathtub. But you know, I never, I never was hassled and
Speaker 1
Thank God.
Speaker 3
And really, I think that if I never would have, I mean, we didn't really know many people in those days, and I think if I never would have written about this, this birth, I don't think anybody would have ever said anything, you know, when I wrote my book. You know, and I've thought about that. I thought I basically are I'm giving people a hammer to hit me over the head with, you know?
Speaker 1
Oh, exactly. And it and it took and I was I was thinking that as I was reading it. I mean, I personally completely resonate with the way you framed it and, you know, it hasn't happened to me, but, you know, I do feel like I would feel similarly, you know, around the the spiritual side of it, of how you spoke of it. But but it does take a lot of courage to put that out there with the with the rawness and the honesty that you did. I mean, to acknowledge that you, you know, did pray for for a miscarriage and had a lot of reservations around, you know, having this child and, you know, and and And
Speaker 3
eventually, when I when I wrote about it, I wrote about it initially on the Internet and in my book. And then I had I had said something about, you know, the bones in his chest were malformed. And then when I read more about, like, maybe they really weren't malformed, and I had read I had written that he was, you know, I think he was a month early. And then I felt like, well, you know what, I'm not I really can't say for sure that he was a month early because I really don't know. And so I rewrote the story, and now if you you can read about me on the Internet about how I changed my story. And obviously, I must have changed my story because I'm hiding something. No. I changed my story because I felt like I really can't say for sure that I was eight months pregnant. Yeah. I really can't say
Speaker 1
that the phone was really warm. You're allowed to it's read. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah. And so You know, this brings up a
Speaker 1
a question I was wondering about. I I know that that legally, you like we like you said, you're allowed to legally have a free birth in your home. But what about an unassisted pregnancy? Is that completely legal in all fifty states?
Speaker 3
You know, I have read that in, well, in Nebraska, I read years ago that, it is illegal, it's a misdemeanor for a father to catch a baby in a non emergency situation. It doesn't say anything about the mother. Now, I haven't heard of that law being enforced. There are now some states that say you, if you want to get a birth certificate, you are required to take the baby, or maybe even if you don't, you're required to take the baby to a doctor within the first twenty four hours. And as far as prenatal care, I really don't know, whether Yeah,
Speaker 1
I wonder. I gotta look into that.
Speaker 3
I Yeah. I haven't heard that you that there's any sort of a law saying you have to have prenatal care. It's, and, and even with the birth, it's, you know, I mean, people talk about, well, you can always say oops, you know? Like, even if they said unassisted birth is illegal, you know, how can anyone know that Of course. Of course, if if you haven't gotten prenatal care, then they might deduce that, you know, well, you really did wanna have this baby unassisted. But, you know, basically, I feel like if you if you can have confidence in yourself and you believe that what you're doing is your right, that you don't have to be afraid of social services. It's like, you know, I went up against social services, and I won. And I don't feel like that was an accident. I don't I feel like my intention to I do feel like I created that situation basically because I I was sort of on the fence, and it sort of forced me to take a stand and believe in myself.
Speaker 2
And -Mm
Speaker 3
-Um, but I think the same confidence that you have about the birth, you need to have regarding, your choices. Yeah. And just saying, you know what? Nobody is going to force me to give birth in a way that I don't want to. They other people are not that powerful, that I am powerful, and I can create the birth that I want, and I can create the life that I want. And, and, the authorities are, are not as powerful as some people think. And, and I think, you know, that's why I'm still such a believer in the power of our minds that you you need to envision that you are safe. You need to believe that you are safe.
Speaker 1
Hey, listeners. If you're liking what you're hearing, leave me a review on iTunes. It helps this podcast get seen by more potential listeners. Let's get these stories and this important information out there. Now back to the show. Okay. So then we have your last baby, your final daughter. How did that birth go?
Speaker 3
Well, that one was also very easy and probably most straightforward. Just started feeling contractions with her, early in the morning, and I had decided not to say anything to David like I was in labor. I just felt like I'm gonna hang out here and just relax. And so I just lay in bed and I said my belief suggestions, and I, I actually sort of fell asleep. And then I woke up and I and I felt like I was I told myself I'm moving out of the way and allowing this to happen. And I just really sort of felt myself psychologically step aside,
Speaker 2
which
Speaker 3
I think I did to a degree with all of my births, but, I somehow I don't know, it just I I felt myself able to do it. I was just really breathing deeply and just lying there, and I just said, I'm not fighting this in any way. And then I decided to get up and take a bath. And David was up on the couch, reading the paper. And, and so he saw me walk across the hall, and I and, he said, You've taken a bath? I said, Yeah. I think I turned on the bathwater. And then I sat down on the toilet and looked between my legs, and there was there was the water bag.
Speaker 1
-Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 3
-And then it popped, and I stood up and caught her. And with her, she started coming out, and I saw the cord was wrapped around her neck, which I'd never had.
Speaker 2
-Mm.
Speaker 3
-And I've read that, you know, maybe twenty five percent of the time, the cord's around the neck. You know, Gloria LaMay do you know who she
Speaker 1
is? -Mm
Speaker 3
-Uh, she has said she's, sort of a midwife. I don't know. Maybe she calls herself a traditional birth attendant these days. But she, has written a lot of wonderful things. But she has said that it's the smart baby that keeps the cord around their neck because it keeps it out of the way. Mhmm. And so but it's one of those things that people panic over.
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. Well, there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of lies about it in the Right. Right. Right. Mainstream.
Speaker 3
And, you know, it wasn't tight around her neck, but I did notice it was around her neck, and I lifted it off. And then she just slid into my hands, and the bathwater was still running. And I said David will you come here? And he came down
Speaker 2
the hall. He got his cape down the hall. Yeah.
Speaker 3
And he saw, he saw me sitting there with this newborn and, you know, he was like his jaw just dropped and, and I said, turn off the bath water, you know, and that was it and and I mean it really was kind of just like going to the bathroom as far as like, you know, there was none of this pushing or I mean it was like easy as it gets and some friends of mine had scheduled a baby shower for me for that day because I thought I was gonna be due, like, maybe around the middle of April, and this was April fifth. And so, you know, basically, we just cut the cord, with, we didn't tie the cord with this one for some reason. I don't really remember our rationale, but, you know, and I have read that some midwives believe that tying the cord off can trap bacteria in there. I don't know. I've tie I've tied it off, and then this time we didn't. And either way, we never had any problems with the umbilical cord. But, you know, the placenta came out, you know, within fifteen minutes or so and, you know, once again into the toilet. And I just, I just nursed her and we got dressed and we went to the baby shower. And so, Oh, that's so funny. I had worked up until Friday night. I was cocktail waitress. And I had worked Friday night and everybody at the place, you know, knew how I had my babies. And everyone was like, you know, don't have the baby here. I'm like, you know, well, it could happen.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
But, so I had worked my shift Friday night, and then she was born Sunday morning. And so it was the the other girls at work that, you know, had the baby shower. So I took her to their baby shower. And, you know, they're looking at me. I walk in with the baby, and they're like, no, that's not your baby. You know, we just saw
Speaker 2
you. Mhmm.
Speaker 3
And they had actually wanted to some of the some of the women had wanted to come to the birth, and I said, you know what? I'm gonna see how I feel Yeah. When I'm in labor, which is what I tell people. See how you feel and see who Is it gonna be a comfort to have people there? And to me, it's just like, No, I absolutely knew when I went into labor. It's like, No, I don't want I don't even want to tell David I'm in labor.
Speaker 2
-Mm
Speaker 3
And so, so I think Well,
Speaker 1
you also were very committed and and trained, self trained at giving yourself the validation that you needed. You know? Right. And I think that's, you know, so much of why people, think that they need somebody else there to validate their experience and and remind them that it's normal and that they can do this. But if you're able and willing to connect to that within yourself, which is the real work, you know, that you Right. You know, can have that. Then the then the script gets, you know, flipped a little bit that actually other people become distracting.
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 3
You know, versus helpful. Exactly how I felt. Totally. I mean, I absolutely feel you know, and that's why to call it an assisted birth, it's like, I felt like there was something within me that was assisting me. I never felt like it was just me, my ego giving birth. I felt like I was definitely in touch with something much wiser that is within me that is guiding me the same, the same thing that any animal tunes into. Like, how do these animals know?
Speaker 1
That's, that's what our, that's what your next book needs to be. It'll be called Nature Assisted Birth or God Assisted Birth or something. Right.
Speaker 3
It's like Yeah, it's, you know, it's just the more you feel those that internal guidance, then I think the less you turn to authorities in any area in your life.
Speaker 1
Absolutely.
Speaker 2
And
Speaker 3
I am just so absolutely convinced that we have that inner guidance in every area of our life. I I happen to be very good at tuning into it when I'm giving birth. I wouldn't say that I'm always so great at tuning into
Speaker 1
it. Sure.
Speaker 3
But, but definitely when I give birth, I feel that guidance. It's there. It's those when I've heard a voice or I've had a dream or I've had an impulse, there's no mistaking it. And I feel so confident that I have that, that I, I don't, you know, I just don't look to doctors as it's just
Speaker 1
-You don't need it.
Speaker 3
Their knowledge just it just pales in comparison. I mean, we have so much more within us. And I and I think we have all these internal resources, you know, dreams, impulses, intuition, belief suggestions. These are all things that we have at our disposal so that we can create what we want. And so I never felt alone. I always felt that I had help. And, you know, I never set out to, like, Okay, I'm gonna You know, originally, it was like, Okay, David's gonna catch the baby, and David's gonna catch our babies. And he really only witnessed our first birth. You know, he never witnessed another birth. I mean, I basically you know, I caught all the other babies, and that certainly was not how I set it out. I didn't set out to do it that way. It's just that I went along with what felt right at the time, and I trusted those those impulses.
Speaker 1
So then, what led you to know that you needed to write this book?
Speaker 3
Well, I've always, loved writing. And I pretty much from the time I started having my babies, I felt compelled to tell people. And and as, you know, I I'm really not into proselytizing. I really don't feel like I have to convince the world, or I certainly don't share my story the way that I used to. I it was such my births were such transformative experiences for me, and I felt like I am not unique. I remember talking to a woman once who was a yoga teacher who had had very easy births, and I said, Do you tell this to your students? And she said, No, because I feel that all of my yoga training and all of the work that I have done has allowed me to have these easy births, and I don't think that other people that didn't do all these things that I did could have those kinds of births. -Mm. -For me, I feel like I did I didn't do much at all other than kind of psychologically move out of the way. You know, I eliminated external interference and internal interference. That's basically what I did.
Speaker 1
-Which is no small thing.
Speaker 3
That's true. But to me, it was like, if you can grasp the concept of what it means to do nothing, then, you know So and that's how I felt. Like, I feel like if I did this, I feel like pretty much anybody can. Like, it's so much easier than people realize, but it is a matter of being able to I'd say one of the biggest challenges is standing up to a society that thinks you are insane. -You -You know? -A hundred percent.
Speaker 2
-That's probably
Speaker 3
one of the biggest challenges. Because if you were gonna look to everybody else for your support, this is gonna be pretty hard. But if you can say, I don't I'm not afraid of other people. They don't have power in my life. I believe in myself. I believe I have inner help, and I can do this, then I believe you can. You know, so, I just, because they were such transformative experiences for me, I just felt like I I remember feeling at one point, I have got to share this with the world. I have got to share this with the world. And so, you know, I used to just tell people I remember being on a bus in
Speaker 1
in the bus drive, Oh, where You know, I had my infant.
Speaker 3
Oh, where'd you have your baby? You know. Oh, I just had did it by myself at home. And she's just, like, her jaw drops, and I walk off the bus. You know, people I really was isolated for many years because people just thought, We are crazy. I really was isolated for many years because people just thought we are crazy.
Speaker 2
-Yeah.
Speaker 3
-And even my parents, you know, I was estranged from my family for fourteen years because my family just felt like you're you're insane. And I think when I finally I finally decided I wanted to write about it when I was pregnant with joy. I started writing about it during my pregnancy, so that was my third child. And I finally was able to get a magazine, a spiritual magazine, to publish my article. And then one day a catalog came in the mail from I don't know how they got my name but a catalog came, and they from a company, Bergen and Garvey, who published birth books. And they published Michelle Audant's book, The Nature of Birth and Breastfeeding. And I started looking at some of the other books that they were publishing too. And that one was by a midwife. And I thought, you know what? These people are like leaning in this direction. And so I wrote to them and I said, I sent them my one magazine article and I said, I'm in the process of writing this book and it's gonna be an expansion of this magazine article. And they wrote back, yes, we're very interested. Send us as much completed material as possible. Awesome. And they were an academic primarily an academic press. And, although they had a trade division at that time. And so when I got that letter and actually the letter got the mailman dropped it my son John found the letter outside on our
Speaker 1
Oh my
Speaker 3
gosh. And he brought it in and so I had I didn't have one thing on paper so I just went in my room and I'd spent like six months and I sent them a manuscript and they published it and I was so thrilled, you know, that somebody wanted to publish my book. They weren't asking me for any money, you know. I didn't you know, my royalties were incredibly low because it was an academic press, but what it did is it gave me a little bit of credibility. -Um, -Totally. -And so then, and then they wanted me to do an update in twenty twelve, which I did. But, then finally, I but I didn't have a book that was available really to the general public because they no longer had a trade division, and this was a forty dollars pay, hardback. And so, finally, a few years ago, I bought I had to buy the rights to my book. I bought the paperback rights.
Speaker 1
So they won't
Speaker 3
not sell me the e they won't sell me the ebook rights, so I can't do an ebook. They my book still sells. It's in over six hundred libraries around the
Speaker 2
world because they're very good at marketing to libraries, so I'm glad that it's out there.
Speaker 3
But I bought the paperback rights at marketing to libraries, so I'm glad that it's out there. But I bought the paperback rights and I self published the paperback last year. Oh, okay. And I updated it and, but, like, if somebody wants to quote from my book, you know, I can't give them permission. Wow. So it's, from my book, you know, I can't give them permission. -Wow.
Speaker 2
-You know?
Speaker 3
So it's kinda it's kinda strange that I don't own the rights to my book.
Speaker 1
But And is is this your your one and done, or do you think there's another book in your future?
Speaker 3
Well, I don't know. You know, I mean, I've thought about, writing another book. I just kind of feel when my publisher came back to me in twenty twelve and they said, Can you give us another fifteen thousand words? And I'm like, You know what? It was hard for me to come up with the initial fifty thousand words back in nineteen ninety four, which is what they wanted, because basically what I'm saying is don't interfere physically or psychologically, and babies pop out. -Mm -Like, it's to me,
Speaker 1
it's not natural.
Speaker 3
So really, you need to
Speaker 1
just be making T shirts.
Speaker 3
-Right, yeah. It's like it's I had to start I what I did was I put a bunch of birth stories in the book because it's like I can sum up my philosophy pretty easily And it is I don't think it's this incredibly It's like, do you have to know everything that's happening physiologically in order for you to have sex? In order Do you have to know in order to have an orgasm? Do you have to know Or in order to digest your food, or in order to go to sleep, you know, to go to the bathroom, any of these things, do you have to really know? No, you just have to not with any natural bodily function, don't interfere physically or psychologically. Relax and let it happen.
Speaker 1
And so that's basically
Speaker 2
what I'm asking.
Speaker 1
So If if we grew up, you know, believing that we needed a team of people in the bathroom every time we needed to have a bowel movement, you know, there would be some serious unlearning that needs to be done. Right. Which is the which is the part that I think you're you did such a good job of, you know, of of capturing in in the first half of your book before the personal narratives that, you know, you you you deliver it in such a simple way that's very to the point, very well researched, and it's it's very clear that what's happening is an unlearning, and a part of the unlearning is to understand the default obstetrical model. We we have to look at that, you know, and it it does, it is annoying that it has to be so cerebral, you know, for so many people, because as you're describing and as I know as well, it's the opposite of that that we actually have to bring into birth is to not be in our head. And, but because we process through our heads and because we're so programmed as a culture to not trust this, it's like the the pathway has to go through the brain first for for not for everybody, but for lots of people.
Speaker 3
Well, that's why Grantley Dickried appealed to me. You know, that's why because I was so cerebral in those days. I wasn't spiritual initially. I was an atheist growing up. And so when Grantley Dickried explained, okay, this is what happens when you trigger fight flight, You literally keep blood from flowing to the uterus, and babies get stuck, and women have tremendous pain. And I'm like, That makes total sense to me.
Speaker 2
-Mm -You
Speaker 3
know, just like your face gets white when you're afraid, you turn white as a ghost because the blood and oxygen is going to your arms and legs so you can fight the danger or run from it. He says the uterus of a frightened, woman in labor is literally white.
Speaker 2
-Mm -It
Speaker 3
doesn't have the fuel it needs, and babies get stuck and women have pain. And it's like, just don't do that then. Just don't trigger fight flight. And
Speaker 2
And
Speaker 3
so that's, you know, so that's what my book is about. How to not trigger fight flight.
Speaker 1
Totally.
Speaker 3
If you don't trigger fight flight, then you can go to sleep and you can go to the bathroom and you can have sex and you can have babies. So, yeah. And that's so that's what it is. It's it's about unlearning all of that. And so, you know, and that's why, like I said, I've just felt like, oh, I I know how how transformative this is. It was for me, and I feel compelled to share it. Now I feel like it's kind of been a rude awakening for me in a lot of ways, because when I wrote my book, I thought, Oh, and I'm gonna go to these birth conferences, and I'm gonna meet Ina May, and people are just And I was not expecting the rejection from the midwifery community that I have experienced. So that was really what shocked me, because I thought we're all on the same page. I thought we are all wanting what's best for women. And it didn't occur to me that So, you know, you don't you don't see me speaking at conferences really very often. -Right? -You don't -Gosh.
Speaker 1
It's such a good point. I'm glad you brought that up, because I I feel that in the doula community. You know, it's it's interesting because, you know, you and I are both speaking to I mean, you're much more established in this, but we're both speaking to, hey, you don't need anybody else. And if if if that's, you know, I guess it's kind of, from an egotistical standpoint, you know, or or a profit standpoint, it is not in their best interest to support the message that their care and their model is not as needed as as this pain point. Now that's not to say they're not needed, obviously. I think they're a wonderful gateway, you know, and and I think, I mean, the women I've worked with in the past who have what I would call a medicalized midwife, you know, just for them to take their birth out of the hospital was a huge
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 1
Jump. Uh-huh. And more power to them, you know? That's great, wherever you're at in the journey. But but I I hear that, and I'm disappointed to not see you, you know, speaking at conferences as well, because I think that the conversation around unassisted childbirth is really the the essence of what is normal physiological birth. And we're not having that conversation as a birth community enough because they're so it gets so political and it gets so, you know, it's so confronting. And and even birth advocates, you know, I still find don't wanna discuss death and don't wanna discuss,
Speaker 3
you know, all this dip Yeah, and I think people can get uncomfortable and but And I think, you know, what I always tell people too is, like, I never set out You know, I didn't name my book unassisted childbirth. My message at that time was not necessarily, Oh, if you just remove other people, you'll do fine. My message was really about belief and, you know, it was kind of like, By the way, there was no one else there. But, you know, and that's kind of what my publisher wanted me to run with. But my original message was, if you believe in your own abilities, you can have this wonderful birth and, you know, that isn't traumatic. And and so, so I still believe that, you know, you can have a great birth with a doctor or a midwife, but, you know, but I think it is a challenge because of all the rules and regulations. And you can say, you know, here's my birth plan, and I'd like everybody to leave me alone, and then I'll let you know if I need your help. It's like, yeah, right. Well, that's, You know, legally, they just can't do that. You know, it's The midwives in, you know, in Colorado, I mean, they're legally required to check dilation and heart tones and transfer a woman to the hospital if her if she's not in active labor within twelve hours of her water breaking.
Speaker 2
And
Speaker 3
so, Yeah. You know? But I just try to share my story and and I think but like you said, people, some people for some people, just having a baby is, you know, that in itself is a major challenge and however they get that baby,
Speaker 2
you
Speaker 3
know, but then others are like, you know what? I've had c sections. I don't want that again. And I had a vaginal birth and I had it in the hospital and I had my epidural, but, god, I avoided another c section. It's like so everybody has to decide for themselves, you know, for me to be
Speaker 1
able to resolve. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Right. Like, I and I it's not like I have this goal of I'm, you know, I'm gonna see if I can do it without anybody's help, and I'm gonna prove to myself. No. It's just like to me, it felt like this is the most natural and safest way for me to give birth, and I'm gonna go with that. You know, I feel for anybody else to be telling me what to do, I felt that that would make my birth less safe
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
And and, unless, of a good experience for me and my baby.
Speaker 1
So Well, and, you know, I mean, I feel the exact same way, but but it's it's always so interesting to
Speaker 2
me when women
Speaker 1
come to this without having real exposure to what birth is in in the hospital or regulated midwifery models, you know? Like
Speaker 3
Right.
Speaker 1
The reason I came to this is because I've seen hundreds of births, you know, of women being told what to do, and I've gotten, you know, the the gift of really getting to see what it's like, so that I can choose to opt out with a really Right. Experienced, you know, perspective. But, you know, I'm talking to lots of women who are choosing free birth without that, and it's just it blows my mind. And I find it very exciting, you know, that that's you don't necessarily have to have seen, you know, a ton of hospital births to know that you don't want it.
Speaker 3
You had asked me if, at the time that we decided to do this, if we were aware of what was going on in hospitals, and we were not. And I was not aware until I started writing my book and I started researching birth, and I remember, like, Oh my God, this is what they're doing to women in hospitals? I was like, you know, I'm not going to the hospital because I don't think I need them, but I had no idea until I started researching.
Speaker 1
How validating, Mom? Yeah, right. Well, we, we, we are at time, so I wanna Okay. Wrap up here, but I've thoroughly enjoyed connecting with you, and it's so Yeah,
Speaker 3
me too.
Speaker 1
So fun to, you know, talk to somebody who has really not only paved this path for yourself, but for a lot of other women too. And, you know, your book just does such a such a good job of laying it out in a really comprehensive way. Of course, the personal narratives are always so powerful to read, and your own personal story is so interesting. Like you said, you've, you've kinda seen it all.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1
So yeah. Thank you. It's a really inspiring book, and you're an inspiring woman, and just so grateful to have you on this episode.
Speaker 3
Oh, thank you. And good luck with your podcast and all of the work you're doing.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thank you. That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
