Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldea.
Speaker 1
Today, I speak with the incredible Lacey Haynes from London. After consciously conceiving her love baby with her darling husband, she was thrilled to begin prenatal care with her OB. After a deeply underwhelming prenatal where she was treated dismissively and told she was on a conveyor belt, she switched to a midwifery program. The midwives also had very little to offer in way of individualized care and eventually towards the end of her pregnancy was led to the choice to go it alone with her husband and dear friend. Lacey had a weekend long champion of a labor and was interviewed by the Guardian on her free birth, which went viral overnight and has brought an onslaught of commentary and attention to her choices.
Speaker 2
Flynn, my husband, was in Australia and he was finishing up his paperwork so that he could come and live legally in the UK with me. And we'd been on the precipice of deciding whether or not we wanted to create children. And I think we both knew that we wanted to, but simultaneously, we're afraid of what it would do to our lives and how it would impact the lives that we had that we already thoroughly enjoyed. And we knew, though, that we didn't want to live a life without doing this sacred creative task. The most creative thing that you can do with another person, create life. So we decided that when he returned to London and his visa was all set, we would begin our journey into making a love baby. So that's what we called it. We said, let's make a love baby. And when he returned from Australia well, actually, I'll go back a little bit. While he was away and I was, bleeding, I was on my period, I decided to do kind of a final, ceremony for myself. So I created an altar. And I put some blood on the altar and had a really ritualistic time with myself where I kind of bid farewell to my maidenhood and my time as an individual singular unit in this world. And I welcomed in the possibility to create life, to have another soul, a person choose me to be their their mama, to be their guide, in this world. And so I had that sort of conscious celebration on my own, which felt really important to first and foremost independence as a woman and kind of look at how that would change and how I felt about that and to start sort of entering the journey alone. And then when he returned, then we did it together. We started talking about what that looked like. We really thought it was important that we had the opportunity to consciously create life. So what would that look like? Like, what would that look like in terms of making love, in terms of coming together as two people? We wanted the event of of sex, of making love, to be this amazing starting point and for that to be fueled with love and intention. So we said some nice little prayers together and and and, you know, said sort of prayers to each other. And, yeah, it felt really ceremonial and beautiful to kind of sit down and reaffirm your commitment to one another and your love for one another and then to hop in bed and then do the mommy and daddy dance together and and really be and be intentional, you know, just be like, This is what we're choosing. And it felt so powerful from the get go, for us and felt so blessed that, you know, within a month, we had invited our baby in. We were pregnant. -So it all happened very, very quickly. -Oh, beautiful.
Speaker 1
-And -Oh, I got goosebumps.
Speaker 2
Yeah, and I, you know, I knew the time when it happened. And I experienced the implantation feelings. And it just it it was really it felt like a really elevated experience, especially based on what I'd kind of seen as possible or what I'd been taught is possible. What you see in, I don't know, in the movies or you hear conversations. And, like, this just felt like it was so wholly and entirely of our own volition. And, of course, you can't you can't fall pregnant just because you choose to fall pregnant. Of course, there's a certain element of mystery and biology and timing simultaneously. I felt like the belief in ourselves and the commitment to the process of being conscious and excited and inviting in the opportunity it just all it just all was really it was really special and really powerful and it really set the tone for the pregnancy, birth I wanted to have and how I wanted to be as a mother and as a woman and as a wife. So, yeah, it was extraordinary.
Speaker 1
And at what point, if you can pinpoint it, was there a point in your pregnancy when you started to really feel her spirit?
Speaker 2
I think that she she visited me in dream form. So I just dreamt of water and I think there was there was one dream in particular when I really felt this connection. There's a little baby on my back and I was swimming through the water with her. And this communing without words, I think that was the most powerful imagery. Whenever I felt a connection to her, it would be this communion without the need to speak. So a deep understanding and connection just through experience and presence. That would be sort of, yeah, that was that was what we kind of we kind of found together.
Speaker 1
Beautiful.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And the water, the water element was really extraordinary because that's, you know, he that's like the sacral chakra. That's the the womb space, and then also she's a Pisces. And I thought she was going to be born, in Aquarius. And then she waited for Pisces. So she's a little fish baby. That was yeah, that was pretty special. Because I really was I was really rushing her at the end there, but she was like, hold on.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
I've got my I've got my own timing. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Chill out, mom.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Chill, mom.
Speaker 1
Didn't you get the dream messages?
Speaker 2
Yeah. She's like, I've been telling you all along.
Speaker 1
And so, what was Did you What was the care like in your pregnancy? Walk me through that journey.
Speaker 2
In the very beginning, once I took a pregnancy test to confirm that we were pregnant, I was really excited about going to the doctor and sitting down and telling someone I am pregnant and having them say, Good for you. This is what's going to happen and these are your options and how exciting for you. And that did not happen. -Oh, you don't say it. -How surprising. -I know. Go, go, surprise. I know. It did not happen. We ended up at the doctor, and we, neither of us are, you know, we don't really participate in the medical system unless there's dire urgency. So we had to register with a doctor first. We weren't even registered. So there was no relationship with this person. We were assigned a doctor, we went in. And I'd say that she was my age, so I'm thirty two. And, so I would have been thirty one at the time, but I'd say she was around my age. And just kind of vacant a vacant reaction and and just really, you know, we obviously had a lot of enthusiasm, which it almost felt like she mistook for ignorance and stupidity. It just felt condescending from the beginning. And when I asked her, Okay, wonderful, like, what happens from here? How do we start to explore our options? She rubbed her hands together and she smiled and she said, Well, it's wonderful. You are going to hop on the conveyor belt. -This is a fluff. -What? You are going to hop on the conveyor belt with all of the other pregnant women in London, and you will go from appointment and appointment to appointment, and you won't need to think about a thing. You'll be told what to do and when to do it. -And I, I just
Speaker 1
-I just threw up in my mouth.
Speaker 2
-I know, I threw I also threw up in my mouth. And I was just like, if there was ever a person that you should not have used the conveyor belt I asked you with, it was me. You know, this I had already been asking about, you know, options, midwifery, support, home birthing. And then to throw that analogy on the table, I just kind of I could feel a shell encasing my body. I just hardened to her. And I knew that this was not going to work. So
Speaker 1
In a way, it was a blessing in disguise that she was so gross
Speaker 2
with you. Because then It was. Yeah. I really see every time we engaged with the system and were, disempowered or just completely turned off, it really was a blessing because it pushed us further and further into the true direction of what I really wanted and where we were meant to go. So after that, we, we got assigned to the home birth midwifery team. And that was exciting. We went and met with a midwife in a community center setting. So it wasn't a doctor or hospital setting. It was more in, kind of a, a preschool daycare building. And we went in and sat down with her and she was quite lovely. And I had a list of questions for her. And she was she was quite responsive but at the same time she was very much indebted to the medical model. She, you know, didn't have there's no freedom. They have to abide by the regulations that they are that are prescribed to them. And so, you know, when I was asking some questions that, you know, about timing and how long do you wait for this to happen, how long can you wait for this to happen, She had standards, you know, that that they had to sit with. And, and then I was asking her like, how would you, what do you think about our cosmic birthing? And she hadn't heard of that, but she was open. So I kind of gave her a good, a good, a good grilling and asked her lots of things, and she was quite lovely. And so we were we were interested. I wasn't super stoked because there were, you know, she was still she still had to go through this ninety minute interview of asking us questions that felt so asinine and far removed.
Speaker 1
It's interesting when you start at the other doctor and it's so bad that then you're like, well, I guess this is it's better.
Speaker 2
So It's better. Like,
Speaker 1
automatically start to, like, lower, you know, your expectations and yeah. It's so interesting.
Speaker 2
It's like when you vote, you know, you're like, which is what is the least evil out of all of these evils? So you know that it's not fully what you want, but it's better than where you started. And I was already I already didn't wasn't really keen on the blood tests and all of these routine tests that were that were happening from the get go. I think I had the original blood tests. But I you know, I refused to have the flu shot and the the whooping cough shot and all of these other things that she wanted to give me. And we left there. We were like, okay, this this might work. Maybe this is gonna work. But still didn't feel super elated. I think I went to one more appointment with her before we moved. We moved just fifteen minutes, walk away. But then that put us in a whole other borough in London, which meant we had to switch entirely GPs, midwife team. -Mm. -We had to we had to leave that. So I was already into early into my second trimester. We'd, at this point, already decided not to have scans. So we hadn't I wasn't having any ultrasound scans, and I already had to kind of deal with the repercussions of that with the first midwife.
Speaker 1
Yeah. I was gonna ask you around that. Were you ever offered your legal rights of informed consent?
Speaker 2
Never. No. I was only ever told that I was endangering myself and my baby and there was a good chance I or my baby would die. Wow. Those were those those were that was the blanket statement that was used by everyone every time I had to reaffirm and re, you know, say again and again, I'm not having scans. That would be the the the answer that I would be presented with.
Speaker 1
And do you wanna do you wanna speak at all to your choices around opting out of the routine?
Speaker 2
Certainly. Definitely. I think it's really important to say that I am not against scans or ultrasound technology. In my research and in this pregnancy, in the way that I experienced my body and the growing of my baby, it felt like it wasn't a necessary step. And I think that the way that we use ultrasound technology is irresponsible. I think that we're telling people that it's safe when we don't really know that it's safe. Also, the I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say too much about, like, the actual technology because I'll I'll misrepresent information and then I'll put myself into a corner. -Yes, it's okay. -Yeah, but I In all of my research, and readings, it just didn't really seem like people were really sure that it was safe and that it was really essential. And it seemed like there was, there was a lot of circular diagnosis happening where people were diagnosed with something. Then they would go in for more scans and more checks, and then it would come out that they were fine all along. Or people would be diagnosed with, you know, something like placenta previa early on, and in most cases it clears up by the end of the pregnancy. It seems like there were a lot of people getting super stressed out in the end for no reason. Of course, there are people who find out things and maybe they wouldn't have found out. I don't know. But for me, it just felt, it didn't feel necessary. It didn't feel necessary. Like, I just really felt like I could learn everything I needed to learn through how I felt, through the movement of my child. I just I felt confident and comfortable in in, like, experiencing it in experiencing my body. And, yeah, I find I do find it really hard to talk about it. And it, I think that my heart kind of jumps to a feeling of knowing that the words that come out of my mouth get twisted and used against me. I feel I feel fearful sometimes when I talk about it because, because it probably is the thing that people I think more than more than free birth, that's the thing that people have really attacked me for Mhmm. Is the, not having scans.
Speaker 1
Mhmm. Yeah. I've noticed that and it's, you know, what I'm seeing happen in in your in your gathering in social media is the occasional rare story of a woman who truly feels that her child was saved by that information. And, you know, you and I would never say that that's not true. And Mhmm. I'm so grateful that that woman did scans. You know? Like, that's wonderful. And that's so great that the routine care that puts everybody at potential risk worked out for that one situation. You know? And it is it's just the conversation of routine care and preventative measures or not. You know? And, and people like you and I choose not and are willing to sit in the reality of not knowing everything, not thinking we're in control and being willing to accept the consequences. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 2
And that's just Hundred percent. And, you know, when we went to when we went to the second midwife appointment, so once we moved Burroughs, we had to re register and we had to go to the hospital for this registration. And we had a midwife dressed in this like 1950s nurse dress in this sterile room, basically telling me that my decisions there was a good chance my decisions would lead to death on some on some somebody was going to die. And then when we pressed for statistics, you know, like, is this three percent? Is this two percent? Oh, no. Is this one percent? No. Is this half a percent? Probably not even. Is this twenty like zero point two five? No. Like, it's lower than that. So why are you pressing fear and risk that is so small instead of the other huge expanse of what is going to most likely go right, which is that the real
Speaker 1
The real reason is, and we know why, sorry to interrupt you, but it's because it's because if a doctor quote unquote misses something like that, they get sued.
Speaker 2
Yeah, of course. It's just it all it all just boils down to like mitigating risk. Totally. Risk protecting people's asses from being sued and also for, you know, people don't want to take responsibility for themselves.
Speaker 1
Exactly.
Speaker 2
People want to hand over their responsibility and then if something goes wrong, you don't have to look at yourself in the mirror and say, this was my choice.
Speaker 1
And that's why it is so confronting to people when you are sharing your story in this big, you know, mainstream way through your Guardian article and the BBC stuff. And, you know, you're creating this mainstream, which has not been really done that often, you know, voice of saying, I'm actually not one of those women. I'm actually this other type of women. And it's okay that there can be all these different types. And if you want someone else to manage your care, that is all good, but I didn't. And and why is that not okay?
Speaker 2
Exactly. And the vulnerability of it too. And the truth is I have to look at people and they're like, well, how did you know everything was fine? And then I say, I didn't know.
Speaker 1
Right.
Speaker 2
Just in the way that you didn't know but you think you did because you had this scan and it gives you peace of mind but you still don't know, you know, like there's still mystery. But I chose to listen to my body, trust, follow the signs that are there, and then allow that to be enough. -Mm -You know? So it's like I really it's funny how I can feel it in my body as soon as we start to talk about the scans because I really do feel, I I it gives me it gives me, like, that traumatic stress feeling. Like I have to protect my decision and and fight for it, even though I'm well past my decision. My decision has been made. I've had my baby. Everything is fine. Mhmm.
Speaker 1
But it is it's like one of the things, like you said, that has caused the most upset and the most judgment. And, you know, it's just it's terrible. I'm sorry that you're having that experience because it it Well, first of all, it's it's not fair, and it's not right, but literally, to perpetuate this idea of villainizing you for having informed choice, which is really the essence of, you know, like, feminism and, you know, all Yeah. You know, all the stuff that we're working towards to say, like, hey, I I matter in this society and I am going to make my own choices that I feel are right for me. And, oh, by the way, that's also my legal right. You know, and and it's just so confronting.
Speaker 2
It is very confronting. And also, I think there's this idea that when you make decisions like this, it's paired with ignorance. Mhmm. But you can bet your ass that most people that make decisions like this are thinking a lot harder, doing a lot more research, asking a lot more questions, and paying closer attention to what's truly happening. You know, I've had people feel like they need to inform me about, you know, different conditions that I could have, you know, I could have had or there's sort of that. I did a lot of thinking before coming to this conclusion for myself. It didn't just come out of thin air. -Of course. -So I think this idea that it that it's paired with ignorance, it's like I have to educate this young woman because she obviously didn't think. You know, I had a hairdresser who said to me, You're having a home birth. What happens if you need a caesarean? And I just sat there and he goes, Oh, my God, you didn't think of that. Ew. I know. And I was just like I just couldn't I almost got up. I was like, I can just rip these foils out of my hair and walk out of this place, you know. It's just this this idea that you need to be informed.
Speaker 1
Yeah. It it really is the difference of living in fear and living in trust. And people who live in fear cannot grasp what it means to live in trust. It's just it's black and white. It can't happen, you know.
Speaker 2
For sure. And also that you have to work through fear to get to trust, and it's an active working. Like, I had to sit down with myself regularly, even at the end of my pregnancy, when, you know, when you're you're waiting for your baby to arrive and then every day goes past and you're like, Maybe it'll be today. And it doesn't happen. Maybe it'll be today. And then I think to myself, Maybe I should go in for a scan. You know, like, Maybe this is And then I have to say, No, Lacey. Everything You know, you have to turn back into trust. I had to keep turning back to trust and had to make it an active part of my practice. You know, like, it wasn't it wasn't just a cakewalk for me. It was like it was it was it was alive, you know?
Speaker 1
So keep walking me through your journey. So you start declining the scans, you switch over to this other care group.
Speaker 2
So after I left that midwife appointment, Flynn and I left the hospital. And I said, A the second I stepped into the hospital, I said, A, I'll never come back here ever. And after we left that appointment, I just, I just cried. And I was like, I have to, I have to fortify myself after every one of these appointments with people who want to undermine my decisions, make me feel foolish, and try to change my mind. And I just, as I grow a child inside of my body, do not have the strength to walk out of these appointments and then have to build myself back up again and reaffirm what I know to be true. So I will not be participating in this anymore. I stayed registered with the home birth team and declined most appointments until we met one midwife, She was the head of the midwives who basically, because we were registered with them, they took a certain amount of responsibility over us. And once once I told them that we, you know, we're gonna free birth, but we'll stay registered with you guys, because I also wanted the opportunity to change my mind if I've never had a baby before, you know, like if if it came time to it time at the end and I said, I want to have someone there, I wanted that option. So we stayed registered. And also it meant too that if there were any issues, they they would they would come calling. So that was that was, like, kind of a way for me to stay engaged, and to feel like I had options if I wanted to.
Speaker 1
I mean, I I so I just want to go back to really quick the actual decision to free birth because, you know, I think for ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of people, they would have just dealt with not loving their midwifery group or tried to find another one. Where where did that How did Do you even remember, like, the the moment that that thought occurred to you of, wait a minute, we we could actually not have anybody with us at all?
Speaker 2
I remember it happening, like, climbing stairs over a certain, like, over a long period of time. And I I'd go to Flynn and be like, well, maybe, maybe I'll catch the baby in my own hands. And he'd be like, Yeah, okay, cool. And then I'd sit with that for a while and I'd say, Oh, well, maybe maybe we won't even have the midwife in the room. -Mm -He'd be like, Okay, cool. Okay, yeah. You know, and then he'd sit with it and then he'd be like, I think, Yeah, I think that makes sense. And then I'd come back and I'd be like, Maybe we just won't have them in the apartment at all. You know, just trying on these ideas. And he had to sit he sat with that for a while. And he's just he's so positive. And I think having You need to have your partner or whoever is going to be in attendance on side with you, because to battle the person that's closest to you would have made it impossible. And he was like, If anyone can do this, Lacey, you can do this. And we can do this. Let's do this. So having that support and really helped to validate that decision. And I don't remember exactly when it happened, but it happened like that. It was like trying on my power and then being like, I like this. Yes. Stepping deeper into the center of it until until I arrived at this possibility.
Speaker 1
-That's beautiful. And how did the midwives respond when you told them your intentions?
Speaker 2
-Well, we had we had this other midwife come to our apartment. So after we had this hospital, registration session, they come to your house. So we said, okay, maybe it'll be better when they come to our house. So we had this woman come to our house and it was, it was awful. She didn't even look at Flynn. She was just going through her binder asking questions. And because I've reg I know it was so it was so unfortunate.
Speaker 1
And just that this is what most women get. I mean, that's the part that just like like, you know, for you, that's awesome. You went and had a free birth and found all this power, but like, oh, this
Speaker 2
Most people don't. They have to sit with the Yeah. And this woman who is just not even making eye contact and you're elated. You want you want people to celebrate the fact, and then you and then it gives you permission to celebrate that you are carrying life. You are the carrier of the human race. You're this powerful -Kind
Speaker 1
of a big deal.
Speaker 2
-Bodice. Like, it's huge, and it just gets so diminished. And, and so Flynn started asking her questions. And he was like, You know, what made you want to become a questions. And he was like, You know, what made you want to become a midwife? Because he really was not getting from her. And she was like, Well, she was like, I tried to become a physiotherapist for three years, but I didn't get into the program, so my mom suggested I become a midwife. -Oh, my God. -And Flynn was just like, oh my God. You know, a lot of midwives that is not their case. They're way into it, they're passionate but she was not and we were just, oh my God it was ghastly. And she said to me, because I hadn't had scans, I'd refused scans as they continue to say, you're refusing scans.
Speaker 1
-Yeah. -You naughty girl.
Speaker 2
-Yeah, so bad. She said, you know, I needed a form filled out to say that I was pregnant for some application, government thing. And, for maternity, pay. And she said, I guess I can fill it out for you, but because you haven't had any scans, we don't really even know that you're pregnant. And I was like, dude, if you can't palpate this body and figure out that I am pregnant and look at me and see that I have the body of a pregnant woman, then you should not be in this profession. -Oh, my God. So, it was just
Speaker 1
-Not to mention, like, maybe a fetoscope to hear a heartbeat.
Speaker 2
-Like, you know, I mean -You know, like, I Well, I was all Yeah. She I think she Yeah. She just, like Oh, my gosh. Sorry. Just even recounting it, it's definitely -No. Well, and that's that's where
Speaker 1
it just gets so interesting that the scans and and why they're so triggering is they have actually We have put so much faith in the technocratic model as a human race that the scan is what proves pregnancy to the provider. That's insane.
Speaker 2
It is. There's a wonderful quote in, in Sarah j Buckley's book, Gentle Birth, Gentle Mothering, and it's I forget who has the quote. It's not her, but it says, we don't believe anything unless we see it on TV.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And it's just this it's like, unless you see that baby on the screen, I do not know that you are pregnant.
Speaker 1
That's what you should tell people. You should say, I didn't need to see them on the TV because I could see inside, you know, and just really confuse everybody.
Speaker 2
Just like I can see deep if there was a you know, if we're meant to look in there, there would be there would be a window. You know? So anyway, she she left, and we were just, like we basically were just Mailing the coffin. We cleansed our space. I think we were, like, open the windows, and we were, like, oh, get get that out of here. Woah. And, and then we just, I didn't have, I had maybe two visits after that. So that was, that was early on in my second trimester. So after that, we met the actual head of the midwife team. She was quite lovely. She was more of a pillar. She didn't encourage us, but she didn't dissuade us. She just was like, you do you. If you want help, I am here. If you have a question, I am here. If you are in the middle of labor and wanna text message me a picture of your vagina, I will look at it and tell you what I think is happening. You know, like, she was like, I am here. I was like, Okay, I can work with you. You, you are great. I like what you're putting down. She was the only one in the team who wasn't afraid of us because everyone else was afraid of this like free birthing couple who is refusing scans. And so I think I had two appointments where she came around and just asked if I had any questions. We, she, we didn't have any Doppler, to listen to the heart at any point. We just used the little, what's it called? The little light.
Speaker 1
The little phytoscope?
Speaker 2
Yeah. The little thing that looks like a trumpet kind of. Yeah. The phytoscope. Yeah. Fetoscope. Okay, cool. Yeah. So we, you know, use that a couple of times and, and then I know what happened. And then we get close to the end of the pregnancy. I am due, and then I get a call at eight fifteen on, like, a Tuesday night just when I'm past due in quotation points. And it's a woman who works at the hospital we are registered at, and she is, oversees all the midwives. And she calls at eight fifteen at night. I wasn't expecting a call. I was doing yoga or something or getting ready for bed. And within two minutes, she said, you what you are doing, you need to remember that you could die or your baby can die. Somebody can die. Die. She said it so many times. And I said, listen, I have no idea who you are. I have never met you. You're calling me a woman who is due any day now, who has made her decisions and made her decisions very clear. I have told you the way that I want you involved in my pregnancy. You're calling me. This is like an abusive call. You're calling me out of nowhere, and you're saying these things to me, and then you're making it. So I have to walk away from this call, and I have to deal with the repercussions of your fear and the whatever whatever model that you subscribe to that you're putting on me, what I've already told you the way that I intend to use the system. And and and it's been agreed to, you know, it was agreed to with the other midwife. This is how we will engage. So she, you know, she, she, she bit her, bit her lip and, and, and offered me a quick apology and said, I'm, I need to put this call in writing. She dropped a letter off with an apology in it, but then also a reminder that everyone could die.
Speaker 1
Wow. I'm just picturing, like, a big ransom note of, like, cut out letters.
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. Just, like, graphic. Die. Oh, my God, die. Exactly. So then, you know, I get off the phone and I'm like, You will not believe what just happened. I explained it to Flynn. We basically I had to, like, physically remove it from my body and just, like, dance it out and talk it out for, like, a good hour before I felt like it had moved. And then I had to do it again the next day because it sits inside of you when people slingshot their fear into you, into your home at night when you're, you know, you're I wasn't prepared. I hadn't steeled myself for this call. I wasn't anticipating it. So it's just so it's it is a salt you feel you feel so yeah. Salted.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And you're salted. It's violent. At the end of your pregnancy and that the the time is just so juicy and that veil is getting so thin and everything, you know, when it's honored and and sacred, it's so it's all just so tender. And to have literally someone call into your space and into your home and say that is so unacceptable.
Speaker 2
And you're preparing you have your own. I have my own set of fears that will always be much stronger than a stranger's. I have to face myself every day and the decisions that I've made, whether some days I wake up and I'm, like, on top of them and some days I wake up and I have to reintegrate them and get excited about them again and remind myself why I'm going the path I'm going when it's the hardest path, you know? And you have, you have people, people fighting against you who don't even know you.
Speaker 1
People literally calling you. Literally calling your phone.
Speaker 2
I know. It's it's real. So that was that was when I was, you know, about to have a baby any day. Dear Lord. So that was like a Tuesday. And then I went into pre labor that Friday night. So just a few days later. And let me ask you real quick before that. Yeah.
Speaker 1
What did you you mentioned dancing it out. Do you have any tips for other free birthing or home birthing mamas that, you know, this is very common, unfortunately, because we live in such a technocratic fear based world of people just getting inundated with this kind of emotionally abusive, you know, fear mongering behavior. What are some things that you did with your partner or by yourself to kinda just move it through?
Speaker 2
Yeah. So as a, as a yoga teacher, meditation guide, and like a long time yogi, I've, I've learned that embodiment is the most important thing for me. Being inside of my body, understanding where things hit me in my body, and then finding a way to move it out of my body. So I would do just, I would put on music and just like hardcore dance if that's what I needed to do, if I needed to like physically shake it out of me. I would sit quietly if I needed to discover where a fear was hiding. Like, if I needed to, like, be really quiet and say, okay, where are you? I know you're in there because you keep popping up. Or I would do my yoga practice. I could sometimes would do a more, a yoga practice that had a bit more shape, and sometimes I'd do one that was a lot more free and playful. So it was really dependent. It really was about me saying, what's gonna serve me right now? How am I going to explore what I'm feeling? If it was something that needed to move out of me, or is it something I need to amplify? Mhmm. And then I would try to find a practice, usually movement. Sometimes it would be writing. Sometimes it would be singing. Sometimes it would be talking or chanting. Just some sort of physical practice that would help me to to center myself and to move the energy. So it was always it was always about body embodiment Mhmm. Which is, like, such an important thing for then the act of birthing, of course.
Speaker 1
And that's the thing, you know, for anyone listening who's dealing with this, just move it. Name it. Notice it. Don't let it fester. Move it in whatever way makes sense for you. You know, if you're if you're into yoga, I mean, anybody can dance, anybody can scream and do a pillow, anybody can go for a walk, you know, whatever it is, just really identify like that's not mine and I don't wanna keep this in my space. Gosh. You know, it's just and also that we don't need to be teachers to every hater. You know, that's another thing I keep hearing people be like
Speaker 2
Yes. And stop the conversation. You know, like, I started practicing, like, I'm not gonna have this conversation with you. That hairdresser, after he he rattled off his his bullshit, I just looked at them and I said, this is not a conversation that you and I are having. And then the the air went cold, and I didn't say another thing, and I just went back to reading my book. You know, you you have to start practicing that Boundaries. Boundaries, saying no. This is not your business. You are not a person who gets to ask me about this, who gets to tell me. And you you no. You have to do that to your family sometimes too. Like, there are people who you think should be on your team, who will not be on your team, and then you do not talk to them about the sensitive things. You talk to people who bolster you up. And if that's two people in your life, if that's one person, if that means hiring someone Uh-huh. To be that person for you, you find the people who can be on your team because there's no point in trying to convince people that's not what you wanna be doing when you're pregnant. You need to use your energy for yourself. It's so draining. It's so draining. And so so that's why I also I also didn't talk publicly about my decisions. I did maybe once or twice while I was pregnant, and then I just didn't again. I didn't talk publicly to my online community because I didn't have the capacity to defend myself. There was not there was no part of me, and I didn't wanna leech any energy into in into feeling that I was, being called out for my decisions. And did you So I just didn't.
Speaker 1
Did you know any before and then we need to get into your birth story. But did you know anybody who had ever birthed unassisted? No. Okay.
Speaker 2
And I I didn't know anyone who had not had scans either. Oh. Wow. But then I then you find out after, like, your my husband's mom didn't have scans because they weren't available or, you know, all of these people who are just a generation Well, not that. They didn't have scans.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, like, also, I mean, in the birth free birth community here and just birth community here, like, in California at least are the people that I'm interviewing and talking with. Like, most people that I am talking to do not do scans, you know? And Yeah. There's I'm sure you've tuned into more of the unassisted communities, you know, around the the different countries now. But, you know, that's it's funny because from where I sit, it's like so normal. But then, you know, I'll look at your, like, Instagram feed and I'm like, oh, yeah. No. I guess
Speaker 2
a lot of people don't like that. But it's No. That's like that trigger wouldn't.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Exactly. But it's it's funny because to me, it's like, why would I get why would I put ultrasounds on my baby? That doesn't make any sense to me. So exactly. And you're not alone. I mean, this is this is true for I think, almost every single person I have interviewed so far.
Speaker 2
Wow. And something and something that I've said, you know, like, if I was in a position where I was, you know, in another pregnancy where I thought, oh, something's, you know, maybe there's something not going on here. Maybe there's something I don't fully understand happening with my baby. I'm gonna actively make the conscious choice Exactly. To go and have a scan. Of course. And then I would make that conscious choice and I would feel empowered because it was my choice and I was making it for a reason. You know, like, that's also I think that's so important for people to remember because often it's like people believe that you hate the you hate medicine, you hate technology, You, you know, you must live in the forest and, you know, forage for berries with, you know, the there's there's there's gray areas.
Speaker 1
It's so one or the other. Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 2
I know. So yes.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, and that really is actually how obstetrical care is meant to be. It's meant to be for high risk, you know, situations. And, really, the utopian dynamic would be, you know, for for women to take more responsibility for their own care and use the obstetrical model if they felt like something was outside the range of normal. Obviously, we know the problem is that most women are walking around socialized to not trust themselves and to not have any idea about birth or what is normal. And so, you know, that breeds all of the fear. So
Speaker 2
Of course. And when scan when scans first started, they were they weren't being used for everyone. Like, it was like it it it was for high risk or for people who, you know, needed it. And now of this stuff.
Speaker 1
Same with continuous monitoring. I mean, a lot of this stuff. Okay. So let's get into your birth story. So Oh, okay. It happened, you said, a couple days after the horrible call.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So on I was really, I thought that I was going to give birth on the full moon, which is about eight days before I did give birth and then every day after that, I was just like sitting on the edge of my seat. I was finding it so hard to let go, so hard to not control and to just trust. Like, I had to keep just surrendering and trusting. I felt like that was my active practice, and it was every breath and every moment I was just like practicing. And on Friday night, I started to get a lot of sensation, kind of like cramping and light contraction feelings. And it was just I felt like it was on. But it wasn't full on. So we went out for Thai food and, which was a bad idea because then the, the burps after that were just so painful. So we went out for a Thai food and we're like, last hurrah. Go for it to eat. Come home. And then it just it just kept growing. The sensations kept growing in intensity. And it would be not until Monday morning at one am that I would actually, deliver Fox. So it was a full weekend birth party and one where I maybe slept for like half an hour intervals. I could barely eat once it started. You know, I didn't know the difference besides timing and regularity of of contractions or whatever word you choose, waves or whatever. Besides, you know, regular intervals, I didn't know that it wasn't, you know, it was pre labor, not not true labor. So I was kind of like, okay, I guess we're in it now. And then Saturday rolls around and, my friend Claire, who was, attended, she's one of my best friends. She was the other person who attended our birth. So it was Flynn and I and Claire, she came around and kind of set up camp with us And, yeah, we set up the living room, made it just this like lovely birthing den vibe, had shower curtains on the ground covered with lots of blankets. I had made this massive birth altar, that was just kind of the central piece of the living room. We played cards and I just kind of like moved around. I called my mom and told her that it, you know, had started, but not to expect anything. I didn't kind of know where I was, but that I would, you know, be in touch once things developed. But I didn't really want anyone, waiting on me. I didn't want anyone's expectant energy, you know, wondering when the baby was gonna come. I just kind of wanted to to pull back. So I don't know. Maybe Flynn told his parents, but then we, you know, didn't tell anyone else. Then to spend the weekend kind of rolling, rolling around, listening to some music, dancing a bit, trying to get my body comfortable. Flynn and I, you know, did some making out and had some sexy times kind of on the Saturday thinking that it would, you know, bring on the labor. And also it was just really nice to connect. And then Sunday rolled around and things were growing in intensity, but still, I didn't kind of know where I was standing. Had you slept at all? No. And that was the thing. Like, it was I really wasn't getting any sleep. And Flynn and Claire were just kind of tag teaming and going and taking naps and switching in and out. And I was having a really hard time eating. Besides the dinner that I ate on Friday night, I did not eat really anything. Maybe a bit of rice.
Speaker 1
How frequent were your waves throughout the weekend?
Speaker 2
They were kind of like every ten minutes once the Friday night happened. And then they started to get a little bit closer together on the Saturday night, and then they separated again. And then they started to come closer together on the Sunday. So So it was kind of like they were ebbing and flowing. Not quite taking concrete shape, but definitely like a slow mound. And so we decided to call Francine, the midwife, and she popped around and just kind of gave me a check. And, that was the first time we listened with No, we didn't listen then. She came around twice and she just kind of checked me out and asked me how I was feeling, said you're doing great, was around for about half an hour, and then she left.
Speaker 1
Did she give you a vaginal exam?
Speaker 2
She did. And I Yeah, that was, it was hard to say yes to that. But no, she didn't give me one the first time. She gave me one the second time. -Okay. -She offered it to me. She wasn't pushy. She was like, I can check you and see where you're at. And I sat with it and I was like, Yeah, you know, I want to know where I'm at right now. It's been a long weekend. -Yeah, this is Sunday. -It's Sunday and I, -So where were you? I think I was at in this in the second so the first time she came around, I think it was just like, you're doing great. Peace out. See you. Great. Then the second time she came around, it was maybe around nine on the Sunday night. And that's when she listened with, I think, Dada Doppler. And that was the first time I heard the baby's heart, which was actually it was actually it was really lovely. Because Flynn had been listening. Flynn got really good at listening with just his ear, in the last trimester. So, like, just, like, really moving around and finding her and listening. And so he'd heard her, but I hadn't heard her. And it was just it was really it was really lovely. And so and I had a vaginal exam. Really brief, but she was like, You're at about four and a half or five. You're doing great. Keep going. And there were probably two moments over the whole weekend where I just had a moment where I was like, Can I keep doing this? -Mm -You know? Like, This is a huge experience. Can I keep doing this? And I knew inside of me that the answer was yes, but I also needed to ask the question out loud to myself and just to have Claire and Flynn just kind of, like, look at me and be like, Yes, you can. And then to be like, Yes, I can. And we decided I You know, we had a couple of meetings before the three of us, and I was like, You know, I I'm gonna be water, and you guys are gonna be rocks. And I just wanna crash around you guys if I need to. I'll flow around you if I need to, and you guys just be wrongs. And they were. They held the space. They just held the space so well. They were never, observant. They were always just witnessing. They, you know, it was just it's that was such an important and integral part to have people be the way that you want them to be, to be flexible, to leave, to get you things, to touch you, to not touch you. That was, you know, to be able to call the shots and to not have people who ever feel offended or ever feel as if, ever feel as if it has anything to do with them. So they very much understood their roles. And so Francine gave me the exam. She said, You're doing great. And my water hadn't broke at that point still. She said, you know, go, you know, go give a try on the stairs. Because I every time I left the room that we had been in, I was going into, like, really huge shiver shock. Like, I would just start shaking kind of really violently. Partly due to the cold, but partly just as a physiological reaction to what was happening as I was like getting closer to giving birth. So I had to bundle myself up in like every single blanket and go walk this, give the, you know, just like get a bit of movement, get out of this, get out of this room and walk the stairs. And that felt really good. It felt really good to just get up and be mobile and to like kind of drop down a little bit more. Because I'd been trying to just like, I'd been on my side, I was trying to rest, but it was just so uncomfortable. So I walked the stairs and then I went into the bathroom, I shut the door and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna have a shower. I'm gonna wash my hair. I am gonna get myself cleaned up and just feel good. So I went in the shower and then my water broke as I got out of the shower. And I felt it was just really satisfying to have that happen. And then I went and I blow dried my bangs and got my dipped my hair. I just was like, you know what? This weekend's been too long. I I just need to like have some normalcy so I just like went instead and Flynn and Claire are like are you doing your hair? And I was like dudes I am doing my hair so I like stood out in the hallway. They're like I just need something. I was like I just need to do something that feels like not connected to this experience, you know, like just feels like normal whatever. Did my hair, went back in, then my like waves were just banging right up against each other. It got so intense. And, then I was just like, I have to go in the bathroom. I just have to be in the bathroom. It's the smallest space in the house. Francine was long gone by now. Clare was, I think, asleep in the kitchen and Flynn and I went in the bathroom, dimmed the lights. I sat in the toilet wide legged and I was like, just this feeling of being wrung out Feeling like there are hands wrapped around your body. And there's no pushing. It's this idea of effort was so non existent because there was nothing I needed to do but get the hell out of the way and just, like, soften around every edge, unhinge my jaw, let every follicle of hair just soften, open up my legs, and just be wrung out. And that's what I did. Flynn just, like, pulled my head into his side and stood next to me. And I was on the toilet with my legs wide open, howling with sounds that I have not since been able to recreate because they come from a place that you cannot find, I cannot find, unless I am birthing a child. And I just was wrung out. We were in there. Time becomes this stretchy mess. There is I think Claire said we were in there for, like, forty five minutes. -Mm. -And she just I think there what happened first, like a bulging white sack came out and Flynn was like, we didn't I don't remember reading about that.
Speaker 1
It's like there's an alien emerging.
Speaker 2
It's like I'm not sure what that is. So he's like, hey Claire, Claire, will you just grab the grab the phone for me? And he just took a quick picture and he just sent it to Francine. And this was in like a one minute window, like in between my contractions. And Francine was like, all good. Keep going. And he was like, perfect. Threw the phone out of the bathroom. And, and then -It's funny. -Yeah, because they were probably I know it was it was so funny because I was like, I was like, I'm good. Take the picture. And I was like, and he was he was like, Okay, texting? And I was like, I'm going in. Threw the phone out, back in. And, yeah, it was just, And then in between, he was just, like, telling me stories and saying the most wonderful things. -It was just like this dreamland. -Wow. And he'd tell me stories of India, or he'd tell me stories of of our baby, or just these wonderful things that he was, you know, obviously channeling and just feeling called to say to me. And they were just so beautiful. And, and then I just And then I started to I could really feel her head coming down. And I stood up and Flynn was like, I have a head in my hands. -Oh. -I was like, I have a head in my hands. He was like, It's a baby. He was like, It's a baby. You know, like, there's something about it that you just don't even realize that there is a real person. And then it's there, and you're like, It's a person. And I stood up, and he held her head, and she just came right out like a slippery little fish. Just, and I caught her body in between the four hands, and she was so hard to hold. She was so slippery. And I just sat down and laid her on my thighs. My cord was really short, so I couldn't kind of lift her right to me. And she was determined to try and slip through my thighs. So we were trying to get a hold on her, and her little mouth opened and her little tongue was just howling this screw this, like, full on cry telling this story, like, I am here. This was my journey. And it's that was such a big part of it for us. It was like, we can trust ourselves, but the most important thing is, like, we trust her. Like, she this is her journey. This is her life. We get out of the way so that she can start this life on her terms. This is hers. And she just opened her mouth and was like, I am here. I have done this. And I really felt just, like, reverence for her because she just went through the biggest journey of her life. And we did everything that we could to make that journey safe and full of love and full of trust so that she would enter her life knowing that her parents trusted her, you know, that she could be trusted to do things the way that they felt right for her, you know? And so she's laying on my thighs and I'm trying to, like, lift her to my boob and, like, the cord's quite short. And I just, like, snapped from this exhausted, like, Mr. Burns, like, hunched over character who was, like, depleted of every, you know I was, like, so pale and exhausted after, like, two and a half days of this to just this in gorged boobs standing up warrior woman I was like, Lynn get towels. Claire, Claire who was on the outside of the door just like listening I was like Claire get this do this do this standing up blood dripping out from between my thighs this cord attached to her, and I was standing up, and I managed to lift her and kind of hunker down and put her to my chest. I just felt so powerful. I felt so powerful. And, like, I had I was the commander of this experience, like as much as I could have been, you know, and I just felt so I felt so good. I felt so, yeah, it was extraordinary. It was extraordinary. So we were in the bathroom for a while, probably for, I think Claire said about two hours. So Claire is really the keeper of this story because, you know, I've had to really turn to her to find out what happened. And and so we wanted to wait for the placenta to be born before, we before we cut the cord. But I was the cord was super short and the placenta was not coming. So after, an hour and forty five minutes, and it had stopped pulsing, we kind of squeezed a little bit to see if she reacted to the sensation, and she didn't react. And we said, Okay, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna cut you free from your placenta now. Like, are you okay with that? Are you okay with that? She seemed okay with it. So, we we cut it and she was fine. And then moved into the living room. How did
Speaker 1
you what did you use to cut it?
Speaker 2
So we we moved into the living room I think at this point and we just tied a little piece of sterile string and Flynn had a scalpel that he bought for like model making, he's a designer, so I had sterilized that and and just gave it a swift little cut and it was yeah, it was it was it was much less of a deal than I thought it was gonna be because we'd kind of we'd kind of been like maybe we'll do Lotus Lotus, and have her stay attached and you know it was fine in the end it was much simpler and less traumatic than I thought it was going to be for all of us. And, you know, at this point, had I been in the hospital, they would have, they would have induced delivery of the placenta because I was at like two hours. It still wasn't coming. And I was getting a little bit concerned because I was so exhausted. You know, I hadn't eaten. I was I was you know, had fed her. She'd latched, and that was wonderful. And but I hadn't felt, like, any stirring of the placenta. And so I was like, Oh, what's gonna happen? Like, No, Lacey. Like, you're gonna it's gonna be fine. And Clare and I went into the bathroom together and she was just doing a little research and she was like, Okay, you've done all these things. Like, I think, you know, you're gonna be okay. It's gonna come. And it still didn't come. She went home. This was like four in the morning. And I went into the living room, and Flynn was there with Fox. And I was like, the placenta's not coming. And he just looked at me and he was like, Laci, go deliver that placenta. And I just went in the bathroom and I was like, Body, it is time. Placenta, you are coming. And within one minute, it just, like, fell in it arrived into my vagina. I reached in, I pulled it out. I put it in a bucket and put it in the fridge. And it was great. You know, it was just, like, another instance of needing to just, like, take a pause, be by yourself. Like, as soon as I was by myself in the bathroom, as soon as it was quiet, and as soon as I really just turned into my body, it happened. You know, like, it was just further another example of, like, intimacy, being alone, being focused, knowing what you want, asking for it, and then it happening. Yeah, so then we went back into the living room. Clare had made us this extraordinary post birth, like, fried ginger rice meal. Baby was all bundled up. And then I Or, no, she wasn't bundled up. She was on Flynn. She was skin on skin with Flynn, and they were all wrapped in blankets. And then I came back and brought and had her on me, and we were just kind of, like, holding her and cuddling her and eating. And, and hung out for a while. I think we called our families. And then we were like, I guess we should go to bed now. You know, I guess this is probably a good idea to go to sleep. And then we're like, you know, it's just so funny, all of a sudden have a baby, and then you're like, Okay, I guess we, you know, you're like, I guess we all go to bed now. In our house, Claire tidied up quite a bit. Flynn and I just kind of left things as they were. You know, it looks like a bit of a, a bit of a scene, you know, after, after a birth happens, there's kind of blood everywhere and stuff everywhere and a big, huge, big, huge mess. But what does it not even matter to know where it is?
Speaker 1
I just have to say, there is not blood everywhere. Sorry.
Speaker 2
No, I don't wanna fight for a second. I don't know what kind of birth
Speaker 1
scene you have. I've been
Speaker 2
to a lot of births,
Speaker 1
and there is not blood everywhere.
Speaker 2
I'm sorry. I should yeah. Okay. That I after I said it, I was like, that wasn't the right thing. There was, like, there's, like, bloody ice towels and There's, like, bloody towels. And, like, for me for me, I'd had the cord hanging out of my vagina. So there was, like, blood all over my thighs, and then I'd sit down somewhere, and then I'd go back to the bathroom. So it was, like, for us, because I was moving around the space really freely. Mhmm. And, like, after the placenta came, I kind of, like, dripped some of that on the floor. So there was in our house, there was, like, you know, more blood on the ground Mhmm. And on towels than there normally is in our house. Except for all those days
Speaker 1
you're free bleeding on everything.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly. Except for those days, I'm just menstruating all over the house. Like a cat. So no there it wasn't it wasn't a murder scene. It was quite palatable. I take it back. There was, you know, not, like, just blood everywhere. So yeah. And then, but yeah, that was, that was the general, that was the general gist of what happened.
Speaker 1
And then you all slept.
Speaker 2
And then we all slept so soundly. Yeah, it was wonderful. We all got in bed and we slept. And then the next day we woke up and we'd, I'd said that I was happy for the midwives to come around the next day. And they did come around, two midwives came around and they were lovely. It was so funny because we hadn't met these midwives. And I just it was it was such a blessing that we had this really crap midwife come around who Flynn had asked these questions to because had these really nice ones come around, we might not have free birth. So these really lovely midwives came around. They were super supportive, you know, like, very asking permission, asking, you know, would you like us to do this? Here's some information. You don't have to do it today. But, you know, they were just it was really nice. And it was actually kind of nice too because we were like, look what we've done. You know, we don't have any family here. So it was kind of a nice moment to have people come around while we're lying in bed. And, and they weighed her. And, and what else did they do? It was funny too because they'd heard about us, you know and she and and one of the midwives was I think she was kind of surprised Yeah I know I think she was really surprised at how normal we were like I think she was really expecting us to be strange and, and that was quite cute, because it she really really kind of showed. She was like, oh, so, you know, oh, you guys seem like you guys seem quite normal. You know? Like, I think she even might have said that. Like, you guys are the free birthers, and, and why did you choose it? And, you know, and then she got a bit inquisitive. One of them did, asking us questions. And and, yeah. So, I saw them just a couple
Speaker 1
They just came out one time?
Speaker 2
No. I saw them a couple of times after that. They came around. And I'm trying to remember. It was actually really it was actually really good because we were doing the first forty days of kind of, retreat. So we weren't going out or having any we don't have any family here, but we were really, like, having this incubated time of adjustment and having the baby come into the world in a really peaceful, chill setting. And then having these midwives come into the house, and they all were quite nice. We had different ones every time, but they were all really lovely and supportive and quite helpful. So, like, with breastfeeding, I had, you know, a couple of questions, and that was really lovely. And then I think they came around one other time, and I was feeling quite emotional. And, and the woman who came around was really supportive and just really, like, listened. So it was funny to have that experience after we'd had so many shit experiences. And then it really it really did drive home how all of that had happened early in the pregnancy and throughout pregnancy to really steer us in the direction of the free birth. And then afterwards, I was like, okay, and now here are all the nice people that, you know, you didn't meet before. Uh-huh. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1
So where are you at right now with with the baby? Do you need to check-in with her, or did you have time to talk about the the postpartum stuff?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Let's talk about it. I, I'll go I you know, I would know. I think I think she's okay. I would hear I would hear if there was anything in the stomach.
Speaker 1
Your boobs would start leaking.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly. I would my boobs would just inflate. I think we have some time.
Speaker 1
Okay. Cool. Okay. So, yeah. Let's let's keep talking about your postpartum because this is where it it gets even more interesting.
Speaker 2
Birth birth is the easiest part.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
You really realize that once you have a human to look after twenty four seven, it's so it's such a funny joke nature plays on you because they're like, hey, have a pregnancy for nine months. Hey, give birth to a baby. And now here, go full on more than you've ever gone in your whole life. Like, you, for me, any project I've done in my life has had a start and a middle and an end. You know, like when you have a baby, there's no space. Every moment is just pressed up against itself. And for me, the first four to six weeks were really, really challenging. I found it really hard to find a continued sense of joy and elation. I felt like I was running behind myself, as quite an, solitary, I'm pretty solitary person. I'm very independent. I spend a lot of quiet time alone. This was the exact opposite to have somebody need me and be so close all the time. You know, on on the same hand, I felt such deep love, reverence, and happiness and joy at the presence of this new being, my child, my daughter. But it was really, really hard. And breastfeeding, although natural, wasn't easy in the beginning. It required so much perseverance and discomfort and then moving through discomfort. And I had an, you know, I've, I was actually just interviewed by the BBC recently about this nipple piercing that I had when I was a teenager that just leaked nonstop now that I was breastfeeding. I don't know. It's funny that that was, like, a story that people were really interested in. But it was just Like
Speaker 1
the in the intersection of, like, fetish sexuality about breastfeeding.
Speaker 2
Oh, my god. So weird. But anyway, so that was leaking nonstop beside the fact that your boobs are already leaking nonstop. And are they
Speaker 1
do they is it still leaking?
Speaker 2
It doesn't no. No. No. It's definitely leveled off. But once my milk came in, like, for that first I'd say it was, like, four weeks. That was just, like, I would go through I had to buy a second pack of breast pads, like, reusable ones. I would go through probably twelve sets a day. And then and then I got these really great cups that you fit into your bra while you're breastfeeding to collect milk. I found a local family who needed milk for their daughter, yeah, and donated it to them. So it turned into a happy story. It was just so
Speaker 1
An unexpected little bump in
Speaker 2
the butt. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. And and
Speaker 1
so, how did your let's talk about the Guardian article real quick. How did that even So, for for anyone who's listening who isn't familiar with Lacey, and how I how I came to know her, I saw in the free birthing communities in On Facebook, I saw this art article just come through that I don't remember the title, but it was something like my free birth or something.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
And, it was a Guardian article. It was very short, but it was somebody Very
Speaker 2
short.
Speaker 1
Kind of summarizing your choice to free birth.
Speaker 2
Yes. So an acquaintance of mine is a journalist and she had turned someone on to my Instagram page who is head of the experience section, which comes out in The Guardian every Saturday. And what they do is they have a journalist interview you and then they, they use your words, they write a seven fifty word story, they read it back to you and make sure that you're happy with it and then they publish it. So I was approached by The Guardian to do this and agreed to it. It sounded fantastic. I was interviewed by a really fantastic woman. I read some of her work. It was great. When it came time to have my article read back to me, I was basically happy with it. There were some parts that I wasn't happy with, but I allowed myself to be convinced that they were fine. Even though I was kind of like, oh, you know, I don't know if that conveys or that comes across. And then that was like, yes. You know, we all agree this does come across. You know, it had been through two editors at this point plus the journalists. So it's like, okay. Okay. You know, I'm gonna trust that that's the you know, that you guys think that's fine. They really they really, they wanted to tailor the story, to make it so that it was kind of bite sized, it could be read, minimal questions, and kind of give the whole story in seven hundred and fifty words, which is very difficult. And and really in the end, after after it came out, I really I really realized that I did feel misrepresented because when you have to summarize someone, you know, I might say something like I'm a yoga teacher and a meditation guide, and I've spent a lot of time doing those practices. They've helped me to really understand who I am and that assisted me to then free birth. That gets summarized to I'm a yoga teacher, and so free birthing makes sense or something. You know, quite you know, it's it doesn't it doesn't you can't compact these ideas without sounding like an asshole. So in the end, I was happy that the story went out there and that it reached people, and a lot of people had a lot of positive responses to it, and there was a lot of negativity. I tried to stay away from the negativity. I didn't read the comments. I think the majority of them were negative, and then they closed the comment section.
Speaker 1
Right. I saw that.
Speaker 2
Because And how
Speaker 1
it was postpartum were you when the when the Guardian came out?
Speaker 2
I think that was probably about two months. Okay. Yeah. So I really had to steel myself after that. I went offline for about a week. I got mastitis, which I believe is stress stress based. I got sick. It was it was overwhelming. You know? I consider myself a very strong person in the face of criticism. But when you feel slightly misrepresented and it's not in your own voice and then you're receiving criticism, it can be quite challenging to palate. So it was although there was a lot of positivity, there was a lot of negativity. And I I didn't go online because I also didn't know what I would receive, like, what direct messages had come my way. I was receiving private messages that were abusive from people. A lot of comments that were positive, a lot of comments that were abusive. And, yeah. So it was you know, I'm I'm happy that it happened. I would do it differently, but then it wouldn't have happened had it been done differently because this is how this piece is done. So it's it's just the way that it happened. But since then, you know, I've that night, I was then after it came out, I was on BBC Radio. And then I
Speaker 1
Because of that article?
Speaker 2
Because of that article. Yeah. And, and have just been doing, yeah, like, interviews basically as a result of this article. So it's it's wonderful. It's it's it's it's been good in a lot of ways. But, you know, as you you and I know sitting down for an hour and a half to chat, that that scratches the surface of what a birth story is. You know? Like, it it it can't be summarized.
Speaker 1
Of course. Like, ruffle feathers, really. Like, without giving although, to the haters, I don't think a personal four page, you know, or a book would've would've would've changed anything. You know?
Speaker 2
Probably not. Probably not. So, yeah. It was a really it was a really interesting experience.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Wow. Just just so We might have mentioned this before we were recording. Just I remember reading it and wondering how far into your postpartum you were because as I read the comments and then found you on Instagram and also read some of the feedback, I was like, oh, I hope she's not freshy. Like, I hope Yeah. She's not laying there, you know, still bleeding, breastfeeding, absorbing this energy. But I I did get a sense from not just really the the article, but then from your even just your Instagram feed, this sense of real you know, not only maturity, but self authority and fierceness and wisdom. And, you know, so once I got more of, like, a taste for you, I was like, okay, she's probably fine.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and I had a, you know, I had I had a good and good net of people protecting me as well. You know, like, I I've written things in the past where I've read the comments, and it's been to my detriment. So I know at this stage in my life that that is not something that I ever need to do. You know, if you put something out in the world, Glenn and Melton Doyle says that when she writes things, she doesn't babysit them. She walks away and she moves on to the next thing. So it's not your job to babysit your creations unless, you know, they're your children, then you have to look after them. But, I really felt that. I was like, you know what, Lacey? This is the start of what you're doing because I really have been, you know, moving into this kind of work. And I was like, there's this is what you wanted. You know, you I did want to be talking publicly about this. You know, not just free birth, but also this idea of, like, radicalizing motherhood, which has really been, like, the premise of, like, my last two years. So it's good. You know? It's good to have to and for you, you know, you're you're starting to get criticism as well. And that's what happens when you're doing things that are important and when they they they push against what is normative.
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, I think about, Sheryl Sandberg, you know, from Facebook. Mhmm. Yeah. She's she's or Hillary Clinton, you know, all these people who, you know, big voices. And the bigger the woman and the bigger the voice, the the more haters there are. And that's just the weird balance that that we have in this on this planet at this time. And so, you know, like like you said, I mean, it's almost validating to have the haters because it is that means that our voice is going, you know, into we're out of the echo chamber. You know? Totally.
Speaker 2
We're out
Speaker 1
of the echo chamber if we're getting feedback from from all different types of people with all different types of ways of living and belief. And, it really is just on us to hold strong and be true, which I don't don't think is hard for either of us and and have our energetic and and very real boundaries and and just stay as loud as we possibly can because the world needs to share these stories. And, you know, so many people are are resonating with your message. You know, so many, like, you know, beyond what you could even know. Right? And that's what's so beautiful about the Internet.
Speaker 2
Yes. It is. And that is exciting because you you know you know the stats of what's close to you, but there's so much happening. You know, even you saying, like, this article in this, you know, free birth circles on I'm not part of those, so I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
You know, I haven't I'm I'm not on Facebook very often.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
So so just to hear you say that, it's like, oh, yeah. There's so much beyond what you know and how it's impacting.
Speaker 1
And the media is not covering free birth, you know? So that's why it was really exciting, I think, in these groups that the Guardian posted an article about this cool chicken London who just randomly chose to have a free bird. Or not random. I mean, it wasn't it was very intentional. But, you know, that that is just like, oh, yeah. Cool. This is happening everywhere. And this actually is interesting enough to some journalists or to some publications that it gets some some, you know, some media attention, which is exciting because all of us are, you know, working hard to normalize this and talk about it and, validate women, you know, in these choices. And so, you know, you you obviously play a big part in that.
Speaker 2
And it's it's exciting too because, you know, the amount of people who read that article, you know, and the amount of attention that it received really does show that there is a huge audience for this information, you know, whether it's negative or not and whether it you know, whatever dialogue it sparks. But it really does it is validating. You're like, oh, yeah. This is important. Yeah. This is essential. And the people are getting really pissed off. Good. Right. You know, like, you like, let's let's do this. Like and you said have boundaries. Like, this for me, it's like I I wrote a post right afterwards, and I was like, these are my boundaries, and this is what I will and won't do and this is who I will talk to and this is who I won't talk to. So so like if you're gonna rock up to my Instagram page and and take umbridge with me and say shit to me, like, go for it, but I'm not gonna respond to you unless you're respectful because I'll respect you in return. So it's also just like it's respectful because I'll respect you in return. So it's also just like it's also if people wanna really talk about it and they want to engage, then they will. And if they wanna just be dicks, then they will. And And it's not my job. It's not my job to convince those people, but I'm happy to have a chat if you wanna be an adult. You know? Totally. So it's also, like, really, like, helps me remember, like, okay. This is what I'm willing to do, and this is what I'm not willing to do.
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And there's, of course, you know, just like with religious beliefs, just like with, you know, parenting choices, there is a way to say, wow, I'm really triggered by your choice not to get scans because I really believe in that model and think that it saved my baby. Gosh, that's interesting that we can exist in the same way, in the same place, and make these different choices. Like, those are conversations, you know, if only that we could Yes. Start to bridge, you know, because there is, like, we we are we are women. We are mothers. We are in this sisterhood, and we want to support each other. And and it's just, you know, it's it's beyond infuriating and heartbreaking that we have been socialized to be so competitive and feel so less than, and so so triggered and confronted by you making a autonomous self authoritative, you know, intuitive decision. And that that somehow is hurting somebody else's or threatening somebody else's way of life when that's not at all what you're actually doing.
Speaker 2
Yes. And the way that you just framed the way that you just framed that way of communicating, you know, taking responsibility for the way that you feel. I mean, this just boils back to the whole decision behind free birthing. It's taking responsibility. And so to come at somebody who's made these decisions and to not even be able to take responsibility for your own feelings, I mean, it just pinpoints Right. Such a deep need in our society to effectively communicate not only with each other but with ourselves. Like, to really evaluate, like, why do I get upset? And instead of reacting, can I just sit with this and see where it's coming from? And for me, this turns back into this idea of embodiment. Like, where is this coming from inside of me? Why am I reacting in this way? And then can I, like, evaluate that and then maybe spark conversation or just heal that within myself or just understand it within myself? And this is all about taking responsibility, isn't it? Yeah.
Speaker 1
And it takes a lot of maturity to be able to hold multiple truths and multiple experiences. And, you know, that that one woman can say, you know, I feel really okay with my c section, and I also support your choice to free birth, you know. And and my baby felt was threatened in my birth, but I can comprehend that you also can make your own decisions. Like, you know, it's just it takes so much maturity, and we already know that the Internet's an easy place for trolls and haters. And, it's been really, you know, appalling to see, quite frankly, some of the attacks that I've I've seen on your page, but I think you're you're navigating it really gracefully. And I love how, yeah, just your voice is so fierce and so clear and so joyous and so goofy and and bloody. And, you know, I think people are really resonating with it. And and with that, I wanted to just end with, you letting the listeners know how they can find you. And I saw recently that you had a post about, offering consultations and guidance around some of this stuff. So why don't you just close with speaking a little bit of of what your offerings are?
Speaker 2
You can find me at verylacy on Instagram where I share, insights into my life, into my pregnancy, into the postpartum days, breastfeeding, motherhood, and this idea of radicalizing motherhood, which really is the cornerstone of this journey for me. So I really, as I started to become a mom, I needed to know that I I had to heal my relationship to this role because I didn't value it. So I really entered into this huge, evaluation of what it meant to be a mother and what it meant to be a mother for me and how I could take on this sacred amazing task and do it with, like, full reverence for the role. And with that, I have realized how important it is for other women to, to explore that within themselves. So I'm offering offering one on one pregnancy guidance. I'm I'm trained as a yoga lifestyle coach and a conscious birthing coach. So, it's kind of fusing together all of these different offerings and and helping to guide people on their journey. And it's not about a certain modality. So for me, it's not about saying, like, you must free birth. You must do that. It's not about advice. It's more about holding the space and then helping you to find your truth, what you truly want, and then fortifying yourself so that you can feel really good about making decisions that are right for you. So that's what I'm offering, right now. And I've also I've also been writing a book about all of this. So I've pitched that to some publishers. So maybe it'll be out in the next year, hopefully. And, that can be another podcast.
Speaker 1
Beautiful. Cool. And so people can find you at your website site if they are interested in the sessions?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1
Okay. Awesome. Well, follow her at verylacy. It's a really fun feed. And yeah. Just thank you so much. I I adore you and so appreciate your voice and your energy. And it's stories like these that, you know, other women need to hear.
Speaker 2
Thank you. And I feel like I found such a friend in you. And you have been so wonderful on my Instagram feed because sometimes I can just not bear to engage, but never fear You are there to engage on my behalf, and I'm just like, oh, thank God. It's just so satisfying. And you're just
Speaker 1
help myself.
Speaker 2
You're Oh, you're so good. You have so much knowledge. You're so smart. It doesn't you know, it's not like you're just waffling in from nowhere. You know? Like, you have attended births. You know what you are talking about. So it's just so nice to have you rock up with all of your wisdom, all of your compassion, but then also your ferocity. It's just, like, huge satisfaction. I love you for it.
Speaker 1
Thank you so much. Yeah. Ain't no Thank you. Ain't nobody got time for the bullshit.
Speaker 2
Nah, girl. We ain't got no time for it.
Speaker 1
Alright, girlfriend. Thank you.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you.
Speaker 1
I wanna hear from you. If you have a question, comment, story to share, or an episode idea, find me on free birth society dot com and send me a message. Also, reviews on iTunes are awesome. It helps spread the podcast to more listeners. Let's build and connect this community. That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
