Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldea.
Speaker 1
Today, we have our first grand multipara on the show, meaning a woman who has given birth five or more times. Julie has had eleven children and is currently living in Arizona. From her first baby at sixteen years old in the hospital with forced intervention and rough treatment, she went on to continue to be induced with her next three children in hospital. So after four babies, she chose with the support of her husband to birth on her own and trust and allow labor to work its magic. Julie goes on to have six completely unassisted births and celebrated her most recent birth, her eleventh, in the presence of two trusted traditional birth attendants.
Speaker 2
My first pregnancy, I got pregnant when I was fifteen and, birthed that baby two weeks after my sixteenth birthday.
Speaker 1
Wow.
Speaker 2
And, you know, I didn't know a lot about birth. I took the regular hospital, you know, pre pregnancy class or whatever, which was so lame. Basically preparing you for the epidural.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And so I did that. That birth was a little traumatic in the fact that I didn't really know a lot. And, I was sixteen. And, you know, it was a fifteen hour labor. And the doctor, was threatening c section if she wasn't born soon. So they used forceps and suction and a nurse's fist in the top of my fundus, you know, pushing this child out. That baby was basically ripped out of my body. And, you know, I didn't really know any better like that was birth. And so, I didn't feel traumatized by it at the time. Although, you know, I look back and go, Wow, that was, that was really rough. And, the recovery was hard for that. They left behind placenta that I had to go back about ten days after she was born and them scraped placenta out. And, yeah, it was it was crazy. So then I went on to meet my husband, my now husband. And, we had our first child together. And I, well, I guess my first baby was induced two weeks early. Because they said she was under distress, which there's, you know, knowing now, like, there was no signs of distress.
Speaker 1
Well, there certainly probably was as soon as they started stressing her out in your industry.
Speaker 2
Right. Gosh. Exactly. Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
And then my son, at thirty weeks, they told me he was going to be, you know, according to ultrasound, he was gonna be too big for me to birth. So they needed to, you know, induce me.
Speaker 1
And what what year in Florida at this point?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Okay. Florida. So, my first baby was born seven pounds, fifteen ounces.
Speaker 1
Huge. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2
And that was an oh, I forgot to include. They gave me an episiotomy.
Speaker 1
Like sixteen
Speaker 2
with my first baby.
Speaker 1
Oh, come on.
Speaker 2
First baby, episiotomy, sixteen stitches. Like, that's a lot on your perineum. Ouch. A lot. Yeah. Which took forever to heal. And so then my second baby, yeah, he was gonna be too big. So they were inducing me and he was, eight pounds ten ounces, which they told me he was gonna be nine and a half. Right. Because they And Yeah.
Speaker 1
Yeah. For anyone listening who doesn't know, the guesstimations around ultrasound based on ultrasounds for weight is notoriously inaccurate, and the range is typically between two to two and a half pounds, which on a baby
Speaker 2
On either side?
Speaker 1
Yeah. On either side. So an eight look looking like an eight pound could come out six or could come out ten. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Which is crazy. So why are you even using that? Just yeah. It's crazy. So yeah. No no episiotomy. Did not tear. No problems whatsoever. So then I got pregnant with my third baby. And, well my first baby was with a, a doctor. Second babies were with midwives with, you know, under physician's care type of a thing. Totally different attitude for sure even though they would be what I would call a midwife. Mhmm. Totally different care than having, you know, my doctor. And, I was That's awesome. You didn't
Speaker 1
tear with the second after such a gnarly episiotomy.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Seriously. So then my third baby, my midwife sat there with me the whole entire time. Awesome. She was amazing. She held my hand. It was only a four hour labor. And I was induced because I had, well, they said big baby and that I had double amniotic fluid. So they wanted to be there whenever, you know, my water's opened. So they broke my water and he was born in less than four hours. No episiotomy, no nothing, you know, great. Fourth baby. Again, thirty eight weeks, we need to induce you because you can't have big babies. And so he was born and he was a little over nine pounds. They were going to cut an episiotomy when I was, in the labor process. And my husband saw them pick up the scissors and he told them, absolutely not. You put that down. My wife does not tear nor does she need any help. She can birth this baby. They put them right down. I birth that baby. No problems whatsoever.
Speaker 1
So it was an induction?
Speaker 2
Yes. And was it was
Speaker 1
it with an epidural as well?
Speaker 2
No. I had an epidural with my first three babies. And my last one, I didn't feel right about it. I was having some back pain after my babies, my previous babies. And I kinda felt like, this is connected somehow. And I just didn't I felt like I'm doing this without the epidural. So, yeah, induction, no epidural. That was extremely painful.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2
If you've ever had an an induction, it's so artificial. And it's not anything like real labor. So I had never gone into labor on my own ever, with my first four babies. It was all artificial. And of course, because I can't birth big babies, we have to make sure at thirty eight weeks, you know, you have these babies. So, I got pregnant with my fifth baby. And, we knew more because we were around the community, our church community that we were in. Several of the moms there had home births. And I never, besides watching TLC's baby story, I'd never really seen too many home births. And, I'm sorry to hear you. And I thought, hey,
Speaker 1
are you still in Florida at this point?
Speaker 2
Yes. Still in Florida. So I I thought I just, you know, watching so many baby stories, I was infatuated with birth and babies. And I especially liked the idea of having a doula, which was brand new to me. I was introduced to that through TLC. And had thought, maybe one day I'll be a doula. Which I ended up, you know, eventually doing. But, yeah, I got pregnant with him. And we called the birth center that a lot of friends had used. But we wanted, we knew we wanted to have our baby at home. Because it didn't make any sense to, if we're gonna go. We just felt like if we were gonna be natural, if we were going to just do it. Because that was kind of in my mind. Like, yeah, then we, let's just be at home. And then my husband had said, well, I wanna catch the baby. So we had talked to the midwives and we were talking to them about, you know, price because we were, you know, cash payment. And after them telling me it was going to be four thousand dollars and I told my husband and he's like, Wow, that's a lot of money for you to do all the work and me to catch a baby, and you know, because back then, we're not really, we're like most people who are thinking, well midwives, a good midwife anyway, doesn't really do anything. They're just there. Right? You know? But you're paying for all that skill and knowledge and hopefully for them to not do anything.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
But, so we had thought about it, and we were talking to a friend of mine about what we were planning on doing. And she said, well, why don't you just have your baby at home? And my reaction was, is that legal? Like, I didn't even know that you could have your baby at home without anyone. I just thought, yeah, like they would take your children away. And she's like, yeah of course, you can, you know it's perfectly legal. So immediately I knew that's what I wanted to do. Because I didn't fear birth, even through all of that, you would think, I don't know. You know, I talked to a lot of women myself and, you know, because of their inductions and, you know, all the things that are done to them, they really lose, the face in their bodies. Whereas Whereas I just felt like, well, that's just what they do. I didn't really feel like they took anything from me. I gave away my autonomy, you know. And so I just thought, well, people birth babies all the time. It's not a big deal. I'm just gonna birth my baby at home. So really I had no fear whatsoever. My husband, on the other hand, he said he was so nervous throughout the pregnancy. Because I, again, I chose to have an unassisted pregnancy. There's a lot of women I talk to have unassisted births. But they've seen somebody usually throughout their pregnancy, either a midwife or a doctor, and then they just choose to have their baby at home without them, or call them late, or whatever their story is. But I chose to have an unassisted pregnancy. I was gonna take care of the whole thing because really, I felt like, what do they do anyways? I go in there. I sit there for hours. They were going to make me pee in a cup. They were going to weigh me. They were gonna take my blood pressure, feel in my belly, and send me out the door. And it just felt so ridiculous. Like, I can do this at home. I don't I don't need them to do this. They had missed UTIs that I had gotten. So I just really felt like, well, the things that I would have liked them to pre diagnose, they missed. So what was the point? It just felt like a bunch of aggravation to me. So, you know, we just, we did our own prenatals, which just meant, you know, talking with some friends who had birthed at home on their own. I met a friend of my friend who had suggested that we have our baby at home. She hooked me up with some other people who had had home births unassisted. And so I talked with them and just made the plan to wait, you know, like we're just doing this. So I just took care of myself, ate like I usually did. And, it was really hard because I went to forty one and a half weeks. And that was, you know, I had been induced at thirty eight weeks before this. So it was totally fine.
Speaker 1
Baby yeah. That baby was like, now's your lesson. This is what happens.
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. I mean, I was on the phone, like, when is the baby coming? I was just so and I wasn't fearful or worried. It was just I was done being pregnant, and this was three weeks longer. So, and then I used
Speaker 1
to The average mom carries forty one and a half if uninterrupted. Mhmm. Particularly if there's no prenatal exams, which is interesting.
Speaker 2
Exactly.
Speaker 1
Because that's not the average, that's not the average time that women are birthing because we're a country of induction. But when you look at the demographic of women, particularly with home birth midwives, who aren't getting prenatal vaginal exams, forty one and a half is the average.
Speaker 2
Right. Well, and the original due dates, the way they calculated it, full term wasn't until like forty one point two weeks. Right. Anyway, so in my mind, that's what I always, you know, share with clients and and already have in my mind. You know, forty one weeks plus is when babies are generally born, you know. With good nutrition and, good health, you know. So And patience. Yes. And patience. Patience for sure. So, yeah, I and I was concerned. Would I know what it is that I was in labor because I had never gone into labor on my own. Yeah, I never started. Yeah, I never started the process on my own. So, you know, when it did happen, it was just like, okay, is this it? You know, is this the real thing? And, that birth, I, it was really hard, or that that process was really hard just because I, I had no fears. I had read, what is the childbirth without fear?
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And I just thought I I literally had no fear, and yet here I am feeling, like, pain. And that's his connection. Like, you know, if you're not afraid of it, you're not gonna feel the pain. And, so, yeah, that birth totally made me feel like that is just not true because I expected a pain free orgasmic birth on this, and it was not. It was totally work and it was painful, but worth every minute of it.
Speaker 1
And, but How long did that one last?
Speaker 2
That one was about seven hours.
Speaker 1
And how how was your mental space and how was your partner during that birth, your first free birth?
Speaker 2
He was great. Like I said, I think I said earlier, he was afraid, but he didn't tell me until weeks after the baby was born that he was nervous my pregnancy and nervous, you know, throughout the labor. But he had enough sense to not share those things with me because, you know, you absorb that.
Speaker 1
And you didn't catch up on that?
Speaker 2
No. Not at all. Because he trusts me. That's the amazing thing about my husband. He is absolutely wonderful that he believes that I know my body more than he could ever know it. And any fear or anxiety that he could have, as long as I'm confident, he's confident in me. And so I love that about him. And, you know, I think it's a testament of you know your relationship, you know, so I talked to so many women who are like my husband would never let me do that and I'm like what do you mean? Let you like it's your body
Speaker 1
trigger for me. Yeah. Yeah me too.
Speaker 2
That's
Speaker 1
intense. I know. That's one of the hardest things that I hear women say. But gotta stay compassionate for where they're
Speaker 2
at. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So how would you
Speaker 1
so first free birth, fifth baby, versus four previous inductions. It how would you this is kind of a weird question, but in terms of the pain and how you coped, it was epidural, epidural, epidural, and then pitocin, no epidural, and then total free birth at home. How how would you relate those experiences in terms of the pain? Because you said it was a pretty hard labor.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think mostly because in my mental space, I just expected because I'm doing this, like, natural free birth that it would just be less painful. And, knowing that I wasn't afraid of it, it just kinda caught me off guard. But, like, my epidurals never worked anyways. They I was always just numb on one side. So I see these I've you know, being a doula, go into these births and the women have an epidural and they're feeling zero. Like nothing. I never had an epidural like that. None of mine were like that. I was still it was still pretty agony. You know, a lot of agony for sure. I would definitely consider it agony. But not, you know, with my free birth it wasn't like that. It was just pain that I got to work through. And I got
Speaker 1
more sick. But you weren't suffering?
Speaker 2
No, not at all. And it was amazing. I was actually super scared towards the end. I think, you know, of course fifteen minutes before he was born. All the contractions stopped for fifteen minutes. Nothing. And I was like, oh, no. Like, I was so afraid that my labor had stopped. Sure. And it wasn't. Whenever it's your own body doing it, your body knows when it needs to take a break.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And my body was amping up for that last hoorah, you know, to push your baby out.
Speaker 1
I had I had a mom one time years ago, who literally at ten centimeters, everything stopped. She got to ten, she got checked, everything stopped. She kicked everybody out. She took an hour nap. No waves. She took an hour nap and then woke up and said told her well, it wasn't really her husband. I think it was her boyfriend. That he she wanted a chicken sandwich. He went Wow. He literally left. And I'm like, you might miss the birth. And she's like, no, I need a chicken sandwich. This is her first baby. She, he goes and gets her chicken sandwich, comes back, she eats it, and then literally her labor started up and she had a baby like twenty minutes later.
Speaker 2
So that's so crazy.
Speaker 1
I love it. There is very often, there is this rest between ten and pushing.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which, unfortunately, in
Speaker 1
the hospital, we we miss that because the second you're ten, you better start pushing no matter if baby's at zero and you know, they totally miss this, grace period that you get to see with with more undisturbed births where it's very common for there to be a little bit of a rest, like, for you fifteen minutes or sometimes even longer. So yeah.
Speaker 2
Right. Yeah, for sure. I think that's the beauty of hands out of the vagina. You know, like nobody's in there feeling around telling you, oh, you're missing it clearly. You should be pushing. Right? And that's what, you know, because I that's something that people talk to me about. You know, how do you how will you know when to push if no one's doing a vaginal exam? Well, the other side of that is no one's telling me what I need to do, what my body needs to do, what my baby needs to do because nobody's in there. It's just me and my baby, and we know what to do. My body knows what to
Speaker 1
do. And and literally, nobody needs to tell you when to have a bowel movement, you know, and it's similar sphincter, similar hormones. I mean, it that it I say that to a lot of people. Like, does someone need to let you know when it's ready for you to have a bowel movement? And, of course, not. That's a ridiculous idea.
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 1
And it's the same thing.
Speaker 2
Exactly. Exactly. So you don't you just know you trust it more. When you look to the outside, you look more to the outside. You know, it's a lot harder to trust your instincts and what your body because you get these confusing signals. Well, they're telling me this, but I kinda feel this.
Speaker 1
Well, and we're a culture predicated on the woman being numb. You know? So Yeah. Of course, if if ninety five percent of births that are happening in our culture are by numb women, they do need to be told when to push most of the time. Yeah. And so if that's the majority, then it's understandable that we've created this, like, smaller gap of women who are genuinely confused by it because we're in a culture of, you know, you're not gonna know because you'll have a total disassociation from your body, and we'll be managing your body. And we will tell you when it's time to produce this product. You know?
Speaker 2
Right. Exactly.
Speaker 1
So okay. So that so your fifth was your free birth. It was hard, but not you didn't suffer. You didn't get the orgasmic, perhaps, ecstasy.
Speaker 2
No orgasmic birth. No. But it was great. And I did it. And it was amazing to be able to share that with people because people just we got the deer in the headlights look every time we would tell people, no, we don't have a midwife. And, you know, different people deal with it differently, but I'm a very open and honest person, so I never hid what we were doing. I felt like, you know, I couldn't find anybody to, support me and who really had, you know, any resources online even. So I wanted to be that for other people and say, look, it's natural. Having a baby is not a medical event. It is just so natural. And we've only been doing going to the hospital and doing it this crazy way for the last hundred years. You know, it's this is not the way even our grandparents, I would tell people, your grandparents were not born in a hospital. Do you realize that? Yeah.
Speaker 1
That's true. Right? So our grandparents birthed in hospitals, but most of them were not born in hospitals. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Right. So that's not even that long.
Speaker 1
No. Not at all.
Speaker 2
No. It's truly it's not like, oh, yeah. Thousands of years ago people didn't go to the hospital. It's not how long.
Speaker 1
Like, people are alive today to have seen yeah. To have seen this evolution or d d evolution.
Speaker 2
Billions of people in the world. So, like, if home birth was killing people like they say, you know, like they want you to think, then we would be pretty much extinct at this point. Right?
Speaker 1
Yeah. It literally makes no sense. Yeah. But most propaganda doesn't. So okay. So then take me to your sixth. So when do you move to Alabama?
Speaker 2
After my sixth, I moved to Alabama.
Speaker 1
Okay.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So my sixth birth was, you know, again we of course we knew we would have another home birth, unassisted pregnancy and assisted birth. It was my first water birth. You know, kind of went uneventful. It was just my husband and I. Last our first home birth was, we had a couple friends there just to help out, and just be there with us, praying with us. And then our second one, I thought, let's let's just my husband and I. My mom came over, watched the younger kids, and that was a water birth. I did not enjoy my water birth. I am a land birther. Water birth doesn't appeal to me. I love the labor, but he was over ten pounds. And I really felt like I needed, the gravity. Yeah. And so most likely his, of course, you know, when you're just a mom, you're not listening to all the crazy stories. He most likely might have had some shoulder dystocia, but I just, you know, I just moved around and he popped right out. And, but I really wished he would have been on land and I've chosen to land birth ever since Mhmm. With that. So
Speaker 1
So did he come out a little a little sticky or was it
Speaker 2
Yes. He he was his head was out for a while. It was his shoulders that took just it seemed like forever. And my husband was definitely you could tell nervous about it. And then he had a short cord. So we're in the water and it's so awkward to try to like
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Hold him up out of the water and I just wanted to get out and in bed. And so, yeah, it just the water made it feel really awkward.
Speaker 1
So when he felt a little stuck or sticky, did you you just started wiggling your hips and?
Speaker 2
Yeah, we, my husband kind of tilted me forward and just a slight little bit of a movement he just slipped right out nicely.
Speaker 1
Nice.
Speaker 2
Good. Yeah, and of course you know had I known, I probably would have just got on my hands and knees because I was kind of leaning up against the tub, you know, that way, squatting ish. So, yeah, super simple, no problems. And then, we moved to Alabama. And if I thought I couldn't find support in Florida, I certainly didn't find it in Alabama. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Because I
Speaker 2
was telling you earlier that, you know, it's like twenty years behind there, and people really thought I was crazy. But at this point, with two free births, there's no way I would ever go back to doing it in the hospital. And that's what I would tell people when they would ask, aren't you afraid? You know, I wasn't really afraid to go to the hospital, but if I would be afraid of something, it would be to go to the hospital. Not stay at home. I had already experienced all the things they wanna do to you. I just wanna birth my baby the way we are created to make, you know, to birth babies. And so that birth was really nice. My oldest is a girl and then we had five sons in a row.
Speaker 1
Woah.
Speaker 2
So my seventh baby in Alabama was my first girl in fourteen years. Wow. That was really special. And you know, it's interesting your progression over the years and the things you learn. You know, because there wasn't a, like I said, there's not a lot of resources out there even now. But fifteen years or thirteen years ago, there definitely wasn't. We read what we could. And my philosophy from the beginning has just been, what is the natural? If we go back two hundred years ago, three hundred years ago, people just birthed their babies. They found out they were pregnant. They knew, you know, and so many moons, during this certain month, you know, my baby would be born. They didn't need to know a day. They didn't know need to know an hour. They didn't need to induce. They just waited on a baby.
Speaker 1
Yeah, it was a way of life. It wasn't so heady.
Speaker 2
Right. It was just something you did. And so every time things get confusing or scary, I just think, Okay, how is our bodies made to do this? And so I don't need outside influence. I don't need excess tools. Or I don't need information from outside of myself. I just need me and my baby. And so it's never been scary to me to birth at home. It feels natural. It feels like you're doing something like not wrong to go to the hospital, but just like to me it feels like nails down a chalkboard. Like that's just not, It's that weird feeling. Like, that's
Speaker 1
not where
Speaker 2
you're supposed to birth. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Yeah. It literally I'm just I'm gonna repeat the analogy because it really feels as ridiculous to me as as having like, going somewhere medicalized to have a bowel movement.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
And, like, it really, like, okay. On the grand scheme of things, yeah, probably a couple people are gonna need assistance. Yeah. You know, doing that, but most people won't. Right. Yeah. So okay. So what about your eighth?
Speaker 2
Yeah, let's see. Eighth now number eight was interesting. Like number seven was a really good birth. I enjoyed her. She was born at forty two weeks. She was, you know, almost ten pounds. And of course, remember, I can't have a big baby. That's why they have to induce me at thirty eight weeks. So all those babies were born. Number seven was born at forty two weeks. Wow. On the
Speaker 1
dot whole extra month of pregnancy. That's how
Speaker 2
it got killed. It's crazy.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And so, number eight, I had serious anxiety during his pregnancy about, the pain. You know, at this point, I've had seven births. And for whatever reason, my boy pregnancies tend to be harder emotionally on me. So because like you were talking about earlier, you know, like being a grand mal tip and having so many children and what that's like. And it's interesting how one pregnancy can be so different than the others. My last pregnancy and birth was the easiest and the fastest so far.
Speaker 1
Nice.
Speaker 2
And yet with my eighth pregnancy, I dealt with such anxiety over birthing this baby. And I don't really know why. It was just I feel like every birth has a story, has a lesson in it for you, and, of course, the story that will unfold for that child.
Speaker 1
And it's not necessarily about you. Like, it could be the baby's, you know, whatever you wanna call it, karma or destiny. Right. You know, it could be the baby's energy that you're picking up on.
Speaker 2
Yeah. For sure. You know, it's it was just really strange. So, yeah, that was really tough. And that pregnancy also was or that birth was really, you know, really without a hitch, you know, six hour labor. It was my husband and I, and my mom. And he was born. And then, yeah, fantastic. My very favorite
Speaker 1
Sorry, I was going to say, do your kiddos ever participate? Are they ever around for the birth?
Speaker 2
I'm not really a family birther. I like to not feel like I'm disturbed and my children whenever I don't mind if they're in early labor, but active labor on, I'm not really one who loves to have their children around just because I feel so distracted.
Speaker 1
Sure. Yeah.
Speaker 2
So for for me and there none of them have really been interested. This last time my five year old had said she wanted to be there for the birth and then she changed her mind. So they haven't really been interested either. Yeah. So those are kind of our family dynamics.
Speaker 1
Yeah, I can't imagine having five kids in the room with me.
Speaker 2
Right? Yeah, totally. They had tons of fun playing in the birth pool, whenever for my first one, you know, because I had the cool blow up fishy pool that you can't find now or is super expensive. But I got it back when it was only thirty five dollars and, blew it up in our bedroom and, you know, for a couple weeks before, of course, because I didn't expect to go to forty one weeks. They were swimming in it and had a good time. And yeah. So, but my very favorite, rebirth and pregnancy was my ninth. And, the pregnancy seemed to go really well. It was a really peaceful pregnancy. And I had more support. We had been in Alabama longer. And so being the weird freak who has babies at home was more normal to my circles. And of course, everywhere I go, I share about births and babies, and how it doesn't have to be the medicalized model. And so I got to talk to many women, and had support. Had found another woman, a friend who had birthed at home with a midwife, underground Alabama midwife. And she was super supportive. And another woman who was supportive of home birth, and asked them to be at my birth. Because for that birth, or during that pregnancy, my husband was injured. He had a back injury. So I knew he wasn't going to be any good to me and he's super helpful, whatever I need during my labors. And so I'd asked them to come and be there and help and kind of knew most likely one of them would have to catch my baby, which kind of felt special. So I was surrounded by these two amazing women who had birthed before and, had trusted me completely. I wasn't worried or scared to be there with me. And, I don't know, it really felt like this amazing energy at that birth, just having these women who were holding, literally holding me up and to lean up against. And my husband would come in and peek in now and again, but he really wasn't there.
Speaker 1
So this was your first all woman birth.
Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah. There's something pretty special about that. It certainly it really felt that way. It was just there was a total. I just have The only thing I can say is that the energy was just totally different in the room to have these women.
Speaker 1
I mean, sorry, but men can't touch it. Like, the what happens what happens when it's just women? It's just there is something really good about it. And that doesn't mean it can't be good with the men. Of course, there's plenty that are in great partners and blah blah blah. But there is something so tangible, so powerful, and sacred about it being all women. Absolutely. It's like the sacred feminine can, like, generate in the room more or something.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I totally agree. And I would never have thought that I felt that way. But, I mean, it almost felt like tribal. Like, this is the way it's supposed to be. These are my people. Totally. And they're with me. And I'm, you know, drawing from the energy and the births and the power of all of these women and the women who came before them, who birthed them, you know? Absolutely. It's like It was totally drawn. And, that birth was super easy. I never went through the crazy, oh my gosh, I can't do it. You know, that happens at transition. That never happened. I mean, at one point I was just like, hey, I think I need to go to the bathroom. And got up and went in the bathroom. And then I shouted for my friend was like, I'm pretty sure the baby is here. And so, yeah, they came in and I kind of just propped myself up off the toilet. She caught my baby. And it was just like, woah. I just couldn't believe she was born because I was waiting for that I can't do it moment.
Speaker 1
And it was a little girl?
Speaker 2
Yes. It was another little girl. And I had felt so connected to her. And so it kind of felt like this was perfect because of all this female energy in the room and then giving birth to this female. And she's totally a different child than all of my other children. She definitely has this old soul feel about her. And she's one of the ones that had said she wanted to be at me.
Speaker 1
That's what I was just gonna ask. I would have guessed it was her.
Speaker 2
Yes. For sure. So that and postpartum was great. I did hemorrhage a little bit after that birth. I took some herbs and, you know, was fine. And my ninth or my tenth birth, so that was my favorite birth. But my tenth birth, I also had a really good, you know, uneventful pregnancy. But that birth was really hard because I had a partial abruption at the end. And he was born extremely floppy and no color, almost completely drained of color. So that was really worrisome.
Speaker 1
So with with the abruption, how did you notice that? Was it before labor?
Speaker 2
How is
Speaker 1
that all dealt with?
Speaker 2
He he was born, I kind of felt like towards the end, like you need to be born right now. I just had this sense. So, and it's interesting with that birth, my plan was to catch my own baby. And I never even thought to do that until I started listening to the Indie Birth podcast and listening to Marin and catching your own baby. That, you know, when you're in the system and just our culture, you don't Babies are delivered, right? You don't catch your own baby. And that's something that I love to share with women. Like you were saying before about, what was it that you said that you'd love to share with other people? Oh, that you don't have to have a vaginal exam. Mhmm. You know, my thing is I love to tell women, you know, you can catch your own baby.
Speaker 1
And and if no one's there, it'll be probably pretty instinctual. You know, it's great. It's the adding people that then it's like someone else can do it.
Speaker 2
Yes, exactly. It just takes takes from it. But and that's that I see women's eyes light up and it's worth it every time to say you realize you can catch your own baby.
Speaker 1
You should make a t shirt. Yeah. And a bumper sticker.
Speaker 2
Totally. Right next to my other bumper sticker that says, if you birth, if you want it done right, do it yourself.
Speaker 1
Oh, I gotta get one of those. Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 2
I've got a shirt too.
Speaker 1
Nice. I love that.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So awesome. But yeah. So you had this
Speaker 1
feeling like My plan
Speaker 2
is to catch my own baby.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And you were feeling like he needs to come now? Or was it a he?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yes. He. Which I thought it was a girl the whole time. I'm not good with those. People are like, so what do you think you're having? No clue. I don't know. It's always wrong.
Speaker 1
You're like, I'm pretty sure it's a human baby.
Speaker 2
Yes. Yes. It's not a dinosaur, although it feels like it. I wanted to catch him, but I learned during that birth that I have T Rex arms and they are not long enough to reach underneath there. Although, if you know, I was in my bathroom floor. So, anyways, my husband was in front. My good friend and doula, Christina was behind me. So she caught my baby and handed him through to me. And he, like I said, he was so, you know, I knew he was alive, but he was so lifeless. And, and then I could tell that I was bleeding quite a bit. And so which I wasn't concerned at the time because I just want my baby to transition well. And it took a good while to get him to you know, take some breaths and really pink up.
Speaker 1
And what were you doing at that point?
Speaker 2
I was holding him and talking to him and praying and just, I just, you know, kind of knew like he would be okay. And some babies take a little bit longer. I knew clearly he was stunned. Just, you know, through my midwifery studies also, I knew a little bit more at that time. But I have a trusting that what will be will be. And so I'm not really this fearful even of death, which I think that if we're going to be real with in the birth world, we have to realize that not all babies make it. And we have to really embrace that. Nobody wants to be that person, of course, but not death and life are so bound up in each other. And so, I have this trusting that, you know, I'm not anti hospital. If there was a problem, we would totally go to the hospital. But at the same time, the worst thing in the world isn't death. You know, I think it's maybe living, being alive and living as if you're not alive. You know? So anyways, our kind of philosophy with that is, you know, our baby would be what it was. And so once he was fine and pinked up and everything, I knew I needed to get this placenta out because I knew I was bleeding a lot. And so I took some Angelica because I knew about that. And some Shepherd's Purse to start clamping down and getting some clotting going. But I had lost a lot of blood. And I mentioned that because some people are like, don't tell the scary stories. But, and it took me a while to write my birth story. You can go to atthewateringhole. Blogspot dot com and read Ezra's birth story. And it took me months to share it. Because I didn't want to scare women off from having an assisted birth. Like see, this is why you go to the hospital. It took me a while to share my birth story, because I didn't want to scare other women from pre birthing. Because in my mind I thought, some people might say, see, this is why you need to be in the hospital for situations that happen like this. But for me, I felt like and you can read about that more on my blog. But that birth may have been a C section birth because they might have caught that maybe he was under distress. You know, my that my placenta had erupted and ended up being in a C section and, you know, a C section, I've never had one, but I know enough about them and have known enough women to know that they are not a cake walk to recover from. There's things your baby misses out on, you know, seeding their microbiome and just like their gut and their lungs. And like there's just all of these things that we mess with when we do unnecessary c sections and of course the recovery from that. And then my future birth, like if I ever wanted to have more children, now I've got this scar on my uterus.
Speaker 1
Well, and so for, like yeah. Like like what you're speaking to. I mean, this is this is a huge conversation, I think, for for people on either fence. Right? And and what we were talking about before we started recording is, you know, yeah, I've talked to some women who have hemorrhaged after free birth just like I've talked to women who have hemorrhaged after every type of location and birth. And, you know, it it is something it is a quote, unquote risk, you know, assessment that women that free birth are taking. But, you know, at the end of the day, everyone I've talked to obviously has survived, and they wouldn't have changed anything.
Speaker 2
Exactly. And I wouldn't have, you know, I totally wouldn't have. I was at home. I didn't have to be in some strange place. My baby was fine. My baby was with me. Yeah.
Speaker 1
And then all you need was some herbs? What how did you treat the hemorrhage?
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I did treat the hemorrhage with herbs, but again, like, we we don't know. We just do stuff because, you know, we wanna do something. And my body, as soon as the placenta came out, you know, it it was probably doing exactly what it needs to do. There's no proof that the herbs work or didn't work or you know what I'm saying? So it's like, most of the time, birth works, babies are born and they transition, and our bodies are these amazing things.
Speaker 1
Well, and the irony of of what they give, you know, they give Pitocin to to treat a hemorrhage, which is artificial oxytocin. And so, you know, what the midwifery approach or the, you know, unassisted approach would be, well, let's stimulate oxytocin when we're you know, if there is a hemorrhage, let's get baby to nurse, let's get, you know, the nipple stimulated or nerves that stimulate it, whatever. And we're actually providing the real hormones that the hospital would be providing the synthetic version. So it's it's kind of it's not funny, but it's almost funny.
Speaker 2
Right. Which those artificial hormones end up blocking your natural oxytocin. And it makes breastfeeding more difficult later on because it blocks those awesome hormones that tell your body, hey, you need to make milk. So, yeah, there's just this huge cascade of interventions that you know, would have happened had I been in a hospital. So I am thankful that my baby was born vaginally, even though it wasn't a butter birth. And, I didn't have any problems breastfeeding, though, you know, it was, a bit to recover from postpartum wise. But I had an excellent support with my husband and my children, my older children, and friends and family. And so, yeah, I would take, I would do it if I knew hindsight that it was going to happen, I would still choose it. I would never choose to go in the hospital. So, and it just to me, it was such a testimony that our bodies work. And babies can adjust to so many things.
Speaker 1
And then your body and your baby want to survive. That is their Yes. That is their preference. And like you said, of course, that's not always what happens. Like, yes, some some babies don't make it. And that is really, really sad. But most babies do make it.
Speaker 2
Yes.
Speaker 1
So how did that affect going into your eleventh and so far final pregnancy and birth? How did did that affect it? Did you feel any, like, carrying that energy at all of that that was I mean, even though you you, you know, have have your faith and everything worked out, it still is probably a little scary.
Speaker 2
You know, I'm kind of a strange person that it didn't. It really didn't. Because, my eleventh baby, I actually, you know, I am let's see. My tenth and eleventh baby have babies have been born in Arizona. And when I moved to Arizona almost four years ago is when I first came upon IndieBirth and Maren's podcast. And got to meet her and become friends with her. And so I chose my eleventh baby to hire Maren and Margo to be at my birth. And it was mostly because I loved my free births. I still love my free births. But I think that ultimately we're supposed to walk with other women. And there's something you get when you have a woman that you can walk beside, who you can trust, to trust you, to know what's best for you. It feels good. Yeah, it's totally what I think is really what we're, how we're supposed to birth for the most part. And so, I chose to have them and that was something that a couple of the last prenatals was, you know, so how did Ezra's birth affect, you know, how you're feeling for your future birth? You know, is there anything you need to work through? And I really didn't feel like there was any. I didn't feel like there was any connection whatsoever to that birth, to this birth.
Speaker 1
Well, and especially because it was a good outcome. Like, everything was totally fine at the end of the day.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Definitely. You know, on my end, especially, like, my husband was a little traumatized having to clean up all that blood. So he felt a little bit differently about it. And I think he was probably, he wouldn't have cared either way had we hired Marin and Margo or done it again. Sure. Because again, every baby and every birth has a different lesson in it. It has a different story. And that was baby would have a totally different story. And this last baby ended up being breech most of the time, towards the end of the pregnancy. And we were totally expecting a breech baby to be born. But she turned actually in labor. It was my longest labor ever, like, something like twenty two hours from start to finish.
Speaker 1
Did you feel her turn?
Speaker 2
I did not. I mean, all of us were on pins and needles waiting for her to come out. Is it gonna be a butt? Is it gonna be a head? Like, what is this? And, so she was born head first in my bedroom floor and, you know, totally uneventful, did not bleed, no hemorrhage whatsoever. Nice. And, you know, that let's see. She was December birth. So I was thirty eight years old, you know, it's like so I am in the, you know, the high risk category of
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. You old. You old me.
Speaker 2
Right. I'm old. I've had previous,
Speaker 1
I just I just I just read a a woman on Facebook just commented that, she got called geriatric pregnancy for being thirty three years old. So the age continues to drop.
Speaker 2
Isn't that crazy? And, like
Speaker 1
What's also crazy is that teen moms are are labeled high risk as well. So who's the right age? Like a twenty two year old, I guess?
Speaker 2
Right. Nobody. Because they're gonna find you to be high risk no matter what because having a baby is not natural. It is a medical event
Speaker 1
according to disease. It's an illness. It's a disability.
Speaker 2
Yeah. You need to be cured of somehow. And they've got the cure.
Speaker 1
Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
So, I was wondering any because you just didn't mention them, so I'm assuming not. Did you ever have a miscarriage or or any sort of loss?
Speaker 2
I have. I've had five losses total. They were all early. Most of them, very early. And the latest one was about eleven weeks, and that was the toughest one.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
That was right before my free birth, actually. My last hospital birth. Okay. Between my last hospital birth and my first free birth, I had a later miscarriage. I had had two early ones between my other, number two and number three. And, that one was hard. And of course, the hospital, even that, your your body can't, miscarry on its own. When we went to the doctor is when we found out that, there was no heartbeat. And they tried to scare me into having a D and C. Told me that I would, you know, practically bleed to death. And I would just you'd end up in the hospital anyways. And it would be really scary. And, I didn't wanna have a D and C. I didn't want them messing with my body. Again, I felt like we're made to birth, whether that baby is alive or not. And our body knows what to do most of the time, like, without a hitch. And, so I chose to go home and wait. And I had to wait a couple weeks for that baby to come. And yes, it was. They were right. I mean, it was a lot of blood. And it was tough and a lot of work. You know, it's labor being a little bit later of a miscarriage. And so that was really rough. But again, I was so glad to be at home and I had the complete and total peace that no one had manually dilated me and scraped my uterus. And so, you know, the it's not without risk. They act just because it's something that they commonly do every day does not mean that it's not without its own risks.
Speaker 1
Well, yeah. Look at look at c sections. I mean, that carries insane risks. Yeah. And they're definitely done every day.
Speaker 2
So Yeah.
Speaker 1
You you had mentioned faith a couple times and praying at birth. So I was wondering if you could speak to that a little bit of how that, you know, kind of plays in to your your choices around free birth.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I just really believe that we were created amazingly by an awesome God who knows exactly what we need and he you know, if if we just like I talk to people about vitamin K. Babies are supposed to have vitamin K or, hey, this their nose is suctioned out. Right after the baby can't comes out, a vitamin K shot and a bulb syringe would shoot out. And, you know, we would be suctioning babies. But I just feel like, you know, we have everything we need and we're capable. And so I just I I believe that in sovereignty and what will be will be, that for me is my faith. And for other people, you know, they believe it's the universe or karma or whatever. And I just think that, you know, we can't change anything by worrying and fearing. And
Speaker 1
And I and I guess I bring it up because, I it does seem like a lot of the free birthers that I've spoken to whether they're of a, like, of a specific religion or or spiritual or, you know, if they're just spiritual whatever in some different, you know, format, that it does seem very common. And it makes complete sense to me that people who do carry this, real deep trust in the universal forces, you know, whether we call it God or universe or whatever, all the same word eventually, you know, ultimately, that, you know, the ability and willingness to take full responsibility at home seems like it's so often carried with this very real fundamental trust in, and acceptance in life and death. And and it's beautiful, you know, and I think I think that a lot of people who choose this path, you know, believe that we are born perfect. And I love that, you know, and I and I very much feel the same way. And that is not what the medical model says, you know, and that's not what the medical model how the medical model treats a body or a baby. Of course, it's all based on pathology. So it's and that is really comfortable for a a lot of people. But I I do think there's this interesting conversation and intersection of faith, spirituality, and trust and choosing, you know, really choosing choosing to let God do its work, you know. And and again, like that that, you know, we're all saying the same thing at the end of the day. You know, I'm not religious, but I totally get down with, you know, the same concepts that that we're talking about. And, yeah, I just I I see that connection happening more and more in the free birthing world, and it's just it's beautiful. You know, I do I I think that our country, you know, maybe in everyone's little communities, but our country, you know, doesn't talk. Our culture doesn't talk enough about our connection to God and about our our spiritual connection to, you know, the divine source, whatever that is for you. And I I mean, people people do in their own religious communities, but, like, you know, across the borders of everybody, I feel like it doesn't get talked enough that, you know, this is a deeply spiritual choice. And it does innately, therefore, carry quite a bit of very real trust in the way of things. And like you said, what will be will be. And I think that's something who that's something that if if someone is not of faith or or or of like feeling that connection, that's, like, fundamentally a huge difference that they're never gonna be able to wrap their head around. You know? Agreed. That, you know, you and I very much can. Like, I'm I'm willing to give it up to God and let what happens happens. And I also believe that if something is off, and if I need the medical model, that I'll have some sort of a sign. I just believe that. Yeah. You know, and if I'm wrong, and if you know, if if if I have a sad outcome, of course, would be so sad, but also, like, this I'm not in control, and I don't wanna be in control. You know? Because I don't even because when we look at the actual data and outcomes of the hospital, they're not actually in control either.
Speaker 2
No. No. I mean, that's the crazy part of it all is that, you know, we no matter what you say your faith is, you have faith in something. You either have faith in God or you have the faith in Medicine. The medical model. You know, like you're having faith that that doctor is gonna catch whatever issue and save you from X, Y, and Z or whatever. So yeah, like we all have faith because we're spiritual beings, you know, whether we admit it or not, all of us were, we are spiritual beings. And when we get back to understanding that, then we can make better decisions for ourselves and our babies and our world. And really the medical model is not working. Like women and babies are dying at higher rates than some third world countries. Mhmm. Which is insane.
Speaker 1
Mhmm. Totally. Yeah. And and and that, like you said earlier in the interview, that death is not necessarily the worst thing. You know, I think that's so so powerful because we live in a culture where nobody's allowed to die. You know, it's just not allowed under the medical umbrella, and that's not real. That's not what is true. And therefore, it actually, you know, has this other effect of when things when when people do die and when there are losses in pregnancy, it's like a thousand times more complicated and traumatic because society doesn't know how to acknowledge and support and normalize that. You know? So I it's another big interest I have around this free birthing community of of just the more realistic acceptance, you know, that that we aren't in control and that we've gotta just give it up to God and and what will be will be. And and there's so much more of a conversation of death in the free birth community that I really, really appreciate because for being in the birth world for twelve years, it's almost never talked about in the circles that I've ever been in. And so, you know, it seems Well,
Speaker 2
it's because it's almost like you're not allowed to because then, like doctors, whenever babies or mom does die, you never hear about it. But it's this, in the free birthing world or in even midwifery circles, if they lose a baby somehow it was the midwives fault, or it was the parents fault for, you know, being careless or reckless or whatever. So we don't talk about it because, you know, people just tear you down. They tear midwives down. And the thing of it is, is that if you're a midwife for long enough, you are going to lose a baby. I mean Well,
Speaker 1
it's not you. It's not you. It's not the midwife losing the baby.
Speaker 2
Right. Right. It's just
Speaker 1
Death happens.
Speaker 2
Death happens, and we have to embrace that. We can't be so afraid of it.
Speaker 1
It's almost like it's almost like it's perceived that to name it and normalize it somehow implies that it's like less painful and less tragic. And that's not true at all. It is so, so sad. And I have been with families who have lost their babies and it is Yeah. Pretty much the saddest thing. You know, it's Oh, God. It's so sad. And it it still happens. It just does. And it's, you know, to skirt around it. Yeah. I think creates to not normalize it and not talk about it and put it in the shadows and keep it, you know, locked up in the closet makes it so much harder for those families that are experiencing it.
Speaker 2
Definitely. Yeah. Because they feel totally alone. And somehow it's their fault. Or that you have to blame someone else, which is what brings the midwifery, the energy around midwifery right now is kind of like you can't have any bad outcomes because then they will outlaw midwifery. But we're doing a serious injustice to those midwives who have clients who lose babies and women who lose babies because then they don't have support because we're not allowed to talk about it.
Speaker 1
Totally.
Speaker 2
You know? So
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's such an interesting little little cycle we're in right now. But we're breaking it by having these conversations and, you know, women being like, no, actually, I'm totally cool with with I I'm in my own relationship with God and my baby, and we're gonna just go handle it over here.
Speaker 2
Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1
It is awesome. I just have a lot of respect for it. So yeah. Thank you. This was fun. Lots of different stories, and I love how different they all are and just what a journey. Wow. You really have quite the arc of a of a birth narrative.
Speaker 2
Yes. I do. And it's been amazing. Like I said, every baby, every pregnancy has its own story, and I totally embrace that. And I love that it's almost addict addicting, you know, to have babies. Although I feel kind of tired at this point. Like, okay, I don't know if there'll be more babies or not. But, you know, it's like, that's how I've learned. Like I've got these lessons, and I embrace them. And it's been an amazing journey. And I am continuing that journey by walking with women, attending births here and there, and finishing up my midwifery studies, and hope to walk with a whole lot more women in this way that I've gotten to hopefully being able to allow that free birthing autonomy feeling. But with having, like I said, having those women with me, that tribal, you know, drawing from this wise woman who can be there with you. And anyways, that's what I want to bring to my future clients is definitely that tribal midwifery woman walking with you. But you are the autonomous one you don't know. I don't know anything more, even close to as much as you know about your body and your baby, and I'm just here to serve you. And that's what I wanna bring
Speaker 1
to you. Yeah. I mean, imagine imagine a culture that treated women becoming mothers that way. It's it's we just we have to hang on to that that vision and that commitment in all of our hearts for all of us who feel the call. We have to keep that and and commit to not getting jaded and not getting absorbed in the medical model and not not succumbing to to fear, you know, and really hold exactly what you just said, you know, in our hearts. Because when women are treated that way, as they become mothers, they are they become stronger women. And they make Yes. They they feel empowered to make more autonomous, intuitive decisions. And it just it breeds healthy babies. It's just what needs to happen. So Yes. Thank you for your work and for all your stories and for being on today. It was absolutely lovely to have you on.
Speaker 2
Thank you, Emily. Thank you for what you do. It's definitely much needed. Thank you for being a great resource that I can share with clients and friends and family. So I honor you for that. Thank you.
Speaker 1
Oh, thank you so much, Julie. Alright. Well, have a wonderful day.
Speaker 2
You too.
Speaker 1
That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the Free Birth Podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
