Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldea.
Speaker 1
Hey, everyone. A quick note here. If you're enjoying the podcast and wanna support it, you can go over to patreon dot com slash free birth podcast and contribute. There's one dollar a month pledges, five dollars, and so on. Your support is appreciated. Thank you. This week, we are truly blessed to be honored by elder midwife sister Morningstar, who shares her wisdom on the art of traditional midwifery. You may know her from her impassioned letter to Naram resigning from the registry that went viral earlier this year and touched many of our birth keeper hearts. Sister Cher has had to start village prenatals in our own communities, to the dangers of NRP and intervening with the natural birth process, to her her own incredible mentorship in her earlier years. It was a deep privilege to get to speak to one of my personal heroes of the birth world, someone who has inspired and influenced me greatly, and I am thrilled to get to share our wonderful conversation with you all. Sister Morningstar does live off the grid deep in the woods, so there's a bit of static on the call, so please bear with us. This will be a two part episode, so tune in next week for the rest of her story.
Speaker 2
Well, I'd love to just start wherever the beginning is for you and learn a little bit about what your journey into this sacred birth work had looked like.
Speaker 3
Well, first of all, I want to thank you for taking the time to share a little bit about who you are because, talking with someone is always easier. If you have an idea of, like, what what is their, voice like, what because I can't see you. Mhmm. Yeah. So I just wanna thank you for that. That was wonderful.
Speaker 2
Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 3
And let's see. So my people are Cherokee. I was raised, oh my goodness, in the woods and but it was, you know, during that transitional time. So even though we were, so I was raised in poverty, which I consider to be a a wonderful blessing and gift in my life. It was rural and so we were out out in the woods and it gave me an access to instinct in nature that I had no idea was gonna end up serving me. You know, my whole life, it still does. I live in the woods now. Mhmm. But when it came to having my babies, my first baby let's see. So I was born I was the first generation to be born in a hospital. My mother was dying of tuberculosis and I was born in a sanitarium, so there were no babies there. And it was very unusual that that a woman would be pregnant. And that was in the fifties. And so when I was born, it was just all of this jubilation, you know, just this celebration. I was the only healthy thing in the whole hospital. Wow. And I retained that memory somehow of of the joy and excitement of this little child being born. So I was born in the nine in nineteen fifty three without drugs, only because my mother was, you know, sick and diagnosed tuberculosis and and they and she would I think yeah. Anyway, but we won't get into her story. White deer, she survived, one of the few that year that survived in that setting. But that carried so much in my cellular structure. So fast forward in the seventies when I was having my first child, I didn't even know anything about out of hospital birth. Mhmm. And now when I walk the streets and I see a pregnant woman, I I get all excited and I ask her, you know, where are you having your baby? And if she says the hospital, which of course most of the of the time she does all over the world, then I say, oh, you're having an out of home birth.
Speaker 2
Sounds great.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Because most of our population world population is being born in captivity, and that is a big change. But okay. So my first baby was born in hospital. And during my pregnancy, when I saw the obstetrician, he said, well, I'm gonna give you about a fifty fifty chance, you know, and have your baby. I've our people are little. I was little, and, and it was based on that, you know, whether Wow. Elvis could do this or that. I didn't understand any of his words. It it didn't make any sense to me. But what I do remember is when I walked out thinking, well, he doesn't I like it. It it didn't register anywhere other than three kind of things, which is one, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's not a woman, so he can't know what a woman can do. Two, he doesn't know my people, my grandmother, my mother, and they all had babies, and I'm part of them. So he doesn't know he doesn't know that. And three, he doesn't know me. Uh-huh. So he does he has no idea what I can do. So I had that first child in an hour and fifty three minutes. Woah. Uh-huh. And there made the hospital Yeah. Was nineteen seventy five. And so even though this baby was just coming, you know, like, so fast, still, I was strapped down. My legs were tied tied down. You know, my arms were tied down. And I remember thinking there has got to be a better way to have a baby than this. So with my second child, I had her at home. And that child we had, it was just my husband and I. And, you know, that
Speaker 2
How did you make that jump from what like, were there midwives in your in your life that you could have chosen and you chose not? Or how did you make the jump from hospital to unassisted, so to speak?
Speaker 3
Well, let's see. I I don't know if I would it's I don't usually use the word unassisted even though I know people use that word a lot, but I'll explain that in a moment, I guess. But the jump happened during that labor. There has got to be a better way to have a baby than this. And so I guess during that next, you know, period of time or or finally when I was pregnant again, by then I just already had asked people, you know, found out, oh, well, you don't have to go to a hospital. You could just have your baby at home. And so I was like, well, that's what I'm doing. Mhmm. And the father of my children, I said, that's what I'm doing. And he said, well, I don't know if I'm comfortable with that. And I said, well, you don't have to. You don't have to worry about that. You don't know it doesn't matter if you're comfortable or you're not comfortable. You're not the one having the baby. I'm gonna have my baby at home. So we did find a underground midwife and and that time at that period of time, midwifery was deeply illegal in Missouri. And so we found an underground midwife and by back in the seventies, an underground I mean, a midwife meant somebody that loves birth. That's what a midwife was back in the seventies
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 3
In Missouri and really all over the nation pretty much. But it was just a woman who'd had her own babies and and was high about it and excited about it and decided to help other women be happy and excited about it. So we found a woman who'd had her babies at home and, and so we'd get together for, you know, and play with the baby and talk and plan and and all kinds of plans, which mainly had to do with, like, making sure that nobody knew you were having a home birth because you couldn't have a home birth legally. So everything was underground. And, of course, there wasn't all of this Internet and, you know, all all of this business didn't didn't exist. So let's see. So I the night I had that so my water broke with that baby. My water broke and there was no nothing. Like, no contractions. And I already had a baby. So I already knew what happens or what it looks like. And one of the things we did back then was we would, you know, go to a checkup, like, say, with an OB or a GP or somebody, you know, planning to have the baby in the hospital, at least they thought that. Mhmm. So all along, we weren't going to, but it was the way we, there was there was no, magnifying glass on us. The water broke, of course, and there was no contractions. And so we ended up having to, like, lock the doors and take the phone off the hook and Woah. All this business. So for three days, three days passed and there's nothing and nothing and nothing. And finally, my toddler who is still nursing and she's been nursing every day. But finally, one night, she had a big old nursing session, and that just, you know, flood flooded it over. And, again, had that baby one once, once the toddler had nursed real good. So the it the waters had been broken for three days, and then she also came in, you know, less than two hours. But with her birth, my my, the father of my children was catching her, and so I had my leg up over no. He was holding my leg up. So I was on my side. So my legs weren't strapped down, my arms weren't strapped down. And I was on my side, and he was gonna catch the baby, but he was holding my leg and he couldn't do both. And he's like, I don't know what to do. What are we gonna do? And I said, well, just bend your head over more. And so I flogged my leg over his neck so that he could free up his hands and catch the baby. And I all the while, I'm saying to myself, there's gotta be a better way to have a baby than this. So with the third baby, I, of course of course, had a home birth, but I just caught her myself. And I was elated. I was, like, so pissed. It took me three babies to figure out, oh, so this is how you have a baby. You just do it yourself.
Speaker 2
You Yeah.
Speaker 3
You just do it yourself. So that was, of course, exhilarating. And then what happened was and along with that, the second and third baby, is the same thing that happened in the seventies is other people were like, wow. I wanna do that. And so I would help them and help them and help them, and we helped each other. And and then it just, you know, moved along and moved along until people were calling me that I didn't know. You know, maybe they were a friend of a cousin of a friend. Whatever. Like, somehow they knew somebody that I had helped, but I didn't know them directly. You know?
Speaker 2
And were you were you accepting money or was it just kind of casual?
Speaker 3
In the seventies and and I mean, and then the eighties, I I don't again, we would have to define money.
Speaker 2
Sure.
Speaker 3
I remember we paid our underground midwife fifty dollars. We had actually insurance back in the day. That was back in the day and my the father of my children is a scientist and, we we could have birthed at the, you know, top of the Chrysler bill, you know, Mayo Clinic or whatever. And it would have all been paid for, but we paid our midwife out of pocket. And I remember that first midwife, we paid fifty dollars, and then, with the third baby, I think we paid her two hundred, and we were just back then, it was just like, wow. So let's see. In the eighties yeah. So I'm not saying that we didn't exchange things. We would exchange vegetables or I mean, we've just took such good care. When I said we paid our midwife, you know, x amount of dollars, oh my gosh. We brought her food. We so and the same thing. So when I was helping a mother have her baby, yeah. They were just we just loved our midwives. It's so different now to hear people Mhmm. Playing about their midwife, or this isn't right, or that's not right or they hope their midwife doesn't make it or wish I didn't have to call the midwife or on and on. Oh, we just loved our midwives and I know I I felt beloved, you know, very much so. But I remember distinctly a very different feeling when people started calling me that I didn't know. It was a very different feeling. And I remember feeling like, wow. How do you I don't know you. Like, I don't know I don't know how you live or who you are or what you it was it's and that and it's part of why I try to really build up community all over the world now because I think every woman deserves her own community around her and caring about her and loving her. So but I remember it was at that kind of stage that I I had been a a pre med major anyway, but I I decided I'm gonna look for an apprenticeship. I'm gonna look for a a midwife and explore apprenticeship. And I found my amazing mentor and studied with her for for many years.
Speaker 2
In in Missouri?
Speaker 3
Uh-huh. Mhmm. In Missouri. And that was in the eighties. Yeah. So
Speaker 2
where was where was kind of the climate of licensed midwifery in the eighties?
Speaker 3
Well, the way midwifery was life it it was not licensed and it's still not licensed. But, the way it was kind of, quote, legal is the the law the law that time defined the, quote, art of midwifery as part of the practice of medicine. So a doctor could do birth. Mid the word mid the art of midwifery is the only thing that was in the law. The art of midwifery is part of the practice of medicine. So a doctor could do birth, and we did have one and then two old time kind of general practice doctors that would do a home birth. One was in Kansas City and one was in Saint Louis. Both of their, hospital privileges were taken from them and ultimately their license were taken from them. But, and then, eventually, RNs with, advanced nurses practice degrees could do birth, but they were very, very strongly, ostracized and shunned and and and more than criticized, scrutinized if they did a home birth so they could work in a hospital. And, and then eventually, of course, there were the certified nurse midwives. And they would try sometimes to dabble with out of hospital birth, and and they still try to.
Speaker 2
So it wasn't really until the nineties that
Speaker 3
Oh, no. We were we're in the two thousands. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Okay. Before. Okay. So you find your mentor in the eighties.
Speaker 3
Yeah. So it's just we have a very wonderful state of underground midwife or underground birth, underground. And even even once things did become legal later, much later, It's not all that easy if you've got breach, twins, feedback, you know, on and on. So really Yeah. Or if you go and and now, of course, we're not at two thousand seventeen. So the protocols and the standards have just yeah. I've just gotten a lot more professionalized. So now we have this certified professional midwife, and I was I was so much part of their of their original development. I saw on all of the teams and the boards and, you know, all of that that helped get that going. The first application department was here in Little Rose Cottage on my holy land, the first CPA certified. Yeah. So what is the when when
Speaker 2
you were so involved with it in the beginning, where did you think it was going? Where did you think it was heading?
Speaker 3
Well, I I can't speak for my colleagues. Of course, I can't. But I really I really believe I and them, most of all of us, we really believed we were saving birth. Mhmm. I mean, we I know I really believe that. I I really believe that almost all of my colleagues and maybe some of my colleagues feel like we did save birth. You know, I'm not saying that that they don't feel that way that it was successful. I think many of us, But we thought we were saving birth. We thought, oh, we're gonna get midwives because midwives were what we what we called midwives. Well, to what we thought of midwives back in the day. And, anyway, so I just had that wonderful privilege of of being with apprenticeship trained, apprenticeship based, home birth based, midwifery and birth at the time.
Speaker 2
And did you get to see and support situations that be would be considered in the like, out in the margins, like, for each and twins and
Speaker 3
all those variations? Oh my goodness. Yes. And we didn't think of them as, out of bounds or off we we just I mean, it's just a woman having a baby. Right? Mhmm. She's just a woman having a baby. We looked a lot more at, you know, is she is she does she want to be where she's at?
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 3
Does she wanna be at home? If she was at home, you know, because I only did home birth. And, you know, is she healthy? Is she does she feel good? And if she doesn't, well, how do we get there? Because we had a lot of people who didn't feel good, and then we got we got there. We knew we knew how to get healthy. And then then there were people who weren't healthy and they still wanted to be home. We're like, well, or they or they lived, you know, twenty miles from the nearest paved road. You know, so now all the protocols have all of these restrictions of not too early and not too late and not too big and not too small and not too
Speaker 2
young or too old or
Speaker 3
Yeah. You can't be that far from a, you know, transport option and and on and on. And we we just didn't even have to think about what we thought about was how to help women have a baby and how and that meant not checking her blood I mean, you know, we, of course, learned how we could check her blood pressure, but, yeah, numb numbers and all of that. We had much more, a thousand eyes, I I usually call it. A thousand eyes on this situation. You know, is she
Speaker 2
So you and your mentor would come together to be first?
Speaker 3
Yeah. When I was in training yeah. With my when I was during doing my apprenticeship, her name's Kathy Gallens. I think that's okay for me to say out loud. But, anyway, when I was doing my apprenticeship, what she required was that if I was gonna be at a birth, I was at every prenatal.
Speaker 2
Nice. So I
Speaker 3
was at every prenatal. And then after the prenatal was over, she would ask me so many questions. What did you see? What did you hear? What do you think? And then I would ask her a million questions because we might see one woman, and she would, like, have a little bit of a higher blood pressure or maybe she had a, you know, a partner that relationship troubles or this or that. But let's say she had a book, and so then she might recommend x y z. And then the next woman have the same blood pressure problem, same maybe, you know, about and she'd recommend something different. And so I'd ask her, why why was Mary Anne, you said this, and Betty Jo, you said that, and, we also served the Mennonite community and, you know, wide variety, you know, doctors and police officers and Wow. The poor and, you know, just the whole because everybody was underground if they wanted to have a baby at home.
Speaker 2
And what a teacher, you know. I mean, I I will say as part of this, you know, newer generation of birth attendants and being way more in the professional, you know, certifying all of this, you know, arena that as a midwife's assistant, I have always felt very uncomfortable showing up to a birth to assist never having been there before, never having met this family. And it's just a
Speaker 3
You should feel uncomfortable. Right. Exactly. But it's how most midwives do it. You know? It's He's uncomfortable. Weird. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's just that there's just nothing, natural about that. So then we would go to a birth, and if that birth lasted three days, we did not leave for three days. Totally. And and after the birth, it didn't matter if it had been three days. It didn't matter if it was three in the morning after the and, of course, we always did the laundry, did the dishes, watched over the children, cleaned up, helped make sure that the postpartum help, which meant a mother-in-law, a sister, all of that had been talked about and talked about and planned prenatally that they were in place. We went over all of the instructions, of course, with the extra people, not the mother, because she's not thinking about anything better, baby.
Speaker 2
Right? I can't tell you how many midwives I have watched after a birth just read these instructions to a two hour postpartum mom who's
Speaker 3
totally not paying attention, and that's it. That's all that gets said. No. So And recently for at least another half day, like, six hours after a birth, we would have never left earlier than that.
Speaker 2
I mean, that is midwifery right there. That is the fundamental difference between it being a profession and it being a way of life.
Speaker 3
Oh, yeah. We I mean and that is the only thing that I knew as midwifery as I learned it. And when we did the home visit, when we did a lot of home visits, then we would have lunch, have dinner. Like, it took it took time. Mhmm. We we because we didn't know this person, we had to get to know them. How do they eat? How do they live? Where do they poop? You know, when the dog runs in and over their newly mopped floor, how do they react? What's they're kids. What is it? Whatever. On and on. And then after the birth, it didn't matter how exhaust it didn't matter what it was. We we would go somewhere, like a twenty four hour diner or wherever. Like, it it couldn't wait till the next day. Like, after the birth, before we got back to our home, we went somewhere. It's usually the middle of the night, of course. And she would say, what did you see? What did you hear? What did you learn? And I would ask her my questions. Well, when that happened, what and what and the sequence and why that before that and on and on. So that all happened after every single birth. And then if she felt like there is something that she would be like, well, she would answer me maybe. But most of the time, she would say, well, what do you think? Why do you think it happened like that? What do you think that is? Or let's research it. Let's look it up. So this is this was my apprenticeship.
Speaker 2
It's amazing.
Speaker 3
And it was amazing. And I didn't so I was not reimbursed or paid for any of those births, of course, because I was I was learning. Mhmm. I was my my my reward, my, my wealth was that I was learning. Of course, I brought her food and brought her everything. We just loved our we just loved our midwives and I felt I felt loved as well even
Speaker 2
Is that is your midwife is your mentor still alive today?
Speaker 3
She is still alive. She's a little little bit older and, resting, I hope.
Speaker 2
Yeah. How special. Wow. And do you do you mind if I ask what in those days, because perhaps it changed for you and perhaps it didn't, in terms of medical supplies, you know, you mentioned blood pressure. What other kind of stuff, if any, were were you guys bringing to birth?
Speaker 3
Well, she would we would bring, we would bring homeopathics or some herbs. Usually, if we'd already, you know, I mean, we had visited the family, then we knew what herbs were growing outside their home. We brought chlorophyll water. We brought a fetus scope. We didn't have doppler we didn't use dopplers. We we more bought brought resources that had to do with, like, is this twins? Do we need an extra set of hands? Mhmm. Is this, you know, a is it a v back? Is it a is it a woman that's scared? Does she have epilepsy? Like, what what resources do we a calm mind. We brought a calm mind, a clean spirit. We brought good connection between each other. Make like, we would we would pause before we enter. Are we on good terms with one another? Let's see.
Speaker 2
So no, like, oxygen or pitocin or
Speaker 3
No. No. We didn't bring. I I've never and then, we eventually in nineties, maybe later nineties, we got an oxygen tank. I went I so by then, Norm was originally just a registration, exam. It was a voluntary registration exam before it came to certification process. I don't wanna get into the history of of, Norm because it's a beautiful history, and there's many places that it can be read about. In fact, Robbie Davis Floyd just recently, who's a anthropologist that's been studying midwifery around the world, but certainly midwifery in the United States. And she has a a new book that's coming out, I think. It might be in September, but that's kind of going over all the history of all this stuff.
Speaker 2
Oh, cool.
Speaker 3
But, anyway so, yeah, we did have to go to a neonatal resuscitation program, and they talked us into bringing an oxygen tank. And but for me and as but for me, I I think I carried it to a couple of births and then gave it to a doctor friend of mine. Yeah. It just was foreign, and I never ever carried it or methanogen or ever used it. Mhmm. I mean, I didn't use it because it never carried it. But I know a lot of ways too. It's not like I never saw a hemorrhage or had a deal with hemorrhage. And they're yeah. Certainly, third stage is my least favorite hemorrhage. But, but, anyhow, back to women and the power amazing things that stories like, you can read in the power of women. Just amazing stories. I don't know why, but right now I'm I'm remembering a beautiful woman who had, oh my gosh, so many health problems and kidney failure. It was like her eighth or ninth child, and she just absolutely was gonna birth at home. I mean, she just wasn't gonna go ten miles from the nearest paved road, you know, a little farmhouse out in woods somewhere. And and she said, well, I'm gonna birth by myself if I'd love it if somebody you know, I'd love to have some help. So I went and I was thinking, oh my gosh. This is just craziest. People are crazy. But and and right before she was about to birth, she just got all white and weak and acted like she was gonna faint. And she's like, I just I'm I don't know what's happening. And so I remember taking her head in my hand and saying, say say with me, I am a strong woman. And she said, I am a strong woman. We're like really weak. And I said again, I am a strong woman. And she said it again, you know, and a little bit stronger. And she said, why start if I'm a strong woman, why can't I feel it? And, you know, then she pushed out this great big baby. Yeah. And they were all fine, of course. But, you know, so I I know I kinda got sidetracked and went forward, but what did it bring? We we brought and then I brought, and I don't after my apprenticeship, I mostly I just worked by myself. And people would often ask me that. Gosh. You're all by yourself. Aren't you afraid? Or or or that's dangerous or whatever. I shouldn't say I worked by myself because I didn't think of it that way. And I said, well, I'm not by myself. My goodness. There's a mother. Right. She almost always has a partner. There's two people. Then she's having a baby. There's three people. I'm coming because she wants me to come. There's four people. The room's already getting full. Mhmm. Oh, and first is best when we have privacy and there's not any you know, women do best when they're by their selves, and I don't mean isolated or abandoned
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 3
But by themselves, you know, just like we poop better, like, by ourselves. We everything we do, like, hoop, we make love. You know, I don't mean to get into people's, you know, way ways in the world or anything, but Most people are private. People want some privacy. They definitely don't want somebody checking the mucus and saying, oh, I think you're almost ready.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
There there's just this place where even talking draws us out of our old brain and into our
Speaker 2
So why do you think it's so I know it's a massive question, but why do you think it's so hard for the majority of women to conceptualize or intuit how obvious that is that they would want privacy or that that would be beneficial to them.
Speaker 3
I I'm not sure that that one statement would throw them off. I think I think what I've watched happen is is the more that we are instinct injured and the more we're we have a nature deficit, And the more we are estranged from the life death life cycles of mystery, so there's no guarantee. There's just no guarantee. So if we get in our car and and drive, there's not a guarantee that we won't have an accident and kill somebody or kill ourselves or have somebody her child in the car killed. But it's to the advantage of our culture that we feel at ease driving. That we turn the radio on, that we have confidence that the motor's running, whatever. Like, when we go to buy a car, we don't have to watch videos of fatal accidents and decapitation. You know, we don't have to do anything that raises our consciousness about the dangers of the purchase we're about to make. We it's quite the obvious. There might be a bottle of wine and a celebration and good for you. You've got a new car or a car or whatever. And it's not
Speaker 2
you a rite of passage in this culture.
Speaker 3
What is?
Speaker 2
It's a real rite of passage to, like, get your license and get your car and have that new addition to your life of this freedom, you know, but but what you're saying is there's no acknowledgment to Initially,
Speaker 3
it might be a right of passage, but people buy many cars throughout their lifetime. And there there's just never and we there's hardly a family that doesn't know somebody who died in a car wrecker Mhmm. And someone even in their family. But it it's not to the advantage of our culture that we're afraid to drive a car. But and and yet it's it's a mystery. Like, we don't know when that person's gonna die in a car wreck. We but and so birth is birth is filled with mystery or when it's left to itself. Obviously, you can schedule a section on Thursday afternoon at three. But Sure. If it's left to itself, it's filled with mystery. You you you don't know what you're growing. You don't know how many you're growing. You don't know when it's gonna labor's gonna start. You don't know how long it's gonna be. You don't know how you're gonna do. Even if you've had I've helped women have twenty two babies. They every baby, you don't you don't know how it's
Speaker 2
Do you know one one woman who has had twenty two?
Speaker 3
Yeah. Wow. Woman with her with her twenty first, twenty second baby. I know women that have had twenty eight babies. Mhmm. Wow. I've helped with some of them. My my favorite women to help are are women who, after their, you know, whatever babies, they're like, oh, you know, thank you, sister. We got this now. We we know how to do this. And they might come for, like, one checkup or something. I'm sure they come for the tea. You know, we tea. Tea. We laugh. We talk. Maybe we, you know, play with the baby and say hello and confirm a a position or whatever. They might ask another question about who knows what. And my and, you know, usually they'll say, well, you know, do you wanna come clean up after or anything? But anyhow, back to the main, you know, the masses, we're we are indoctrinated from the time we're little. When we're just little hearing about auntie so and so's birth or whoever, we're indoctrinated to be very afraid and very medicalized. Well, what is it? And is it okay? What did the doc what did the doctor say? Is the blood pressure alright? All these numbers. Numbers have become very important. And the blood you know, hardly hardly a woman. I I guess I wrote that I write it many times, but hard you can hardly find a woman who hasn't had blood taken out of her veins and, you know, machines and ultrasounds looking inside her body. And we have no guarantee on the safety of any of these things, but women will offer themselves up as sacrificial lambs without any knowledge that it's safe in the hopes that inform and we're also information starved. You know, we just Right.
Speaker 2
In the hopes of not having to bow to this great mystery
Speaker 3
and that the sign and that Any information that the doctor knowing. Right. It's just it's like, oh, okay. I got that piece of information. Now I can worry about the next thing.
Speaker 2
Right. It's like, really, I guess it must just come down to this illusion of control and discomfort with death.
Speaker 3
And and we might even say discomfort with bliss. Right? Yeah. Today is and so that's kind of the veil. It's like if if somebody can kinda keep us worried and maybe it's right and your baby could die or you could die or whatever, then then they're not getting we've almost successfully eliminated the the power stories, the bliss stories, the Mhmm. Amazing stories that start coming out of the women who who who faced that fear, you could say. Every woman that deals with birth has nobody has to tell her that her baby might die. Mhmm. Nobody has to tell her that. Nobody has to tell her that it might get to be overwhelming. It it's in our bones. We we're like, woah. This is gonna be big. And and yet, the the power, the excitement, the and so we sit around the fire, of course. And we just did yesterday. We had a village prenatal yesterday. It was so fun. We bring in these mothers that wanna come, of course, but they're pregnant and we we and and we invite the women with their power stories, and they act them out and they talk about and, like, every everybody just is psyched. Like, these moms are like, is this gonna be so great? And we talk about yeah. And they they're not they're not just sharing, oh, it's just orgasmic birth.
Speaker 2
Sure.
Speaker 3
I mean, they talk about the feeling like the baby's coming out their butthole. Okay. You know? Oh, I thought that nope. Nope. It's not coming out that way. It's coming out the you know, maybe they beat the ground or yell at the stars or or or maybe they laugh it out. I mean, everybody's story's different. That's the beautiful thing about hearing all the stories, but they all end up powerful. And that's what women don't get to hear.
Speaker 2
No. And we're in we're in such a culture of, you know, placating this guilt and and shame and, you know, I I birthed with so many women who have had wonderful births or wonderful postpartums or easy times breastfeeding, and they'll admit to me that they're afraid to tell anybody. And they don't wanna hurt anybody's feelings, and they they're afraid to tell anybody how easy postpartum was for them or how much they're enjoying waking up for these feedings. You know, this mind bending concept that they're allowed to love the journey, you know, because the person next to them had a traumatic, you know, c section or or was violated or can't breastfeed or whatever it is. So it's silenced. Like you're saying, it has silenced the blissful or powerful stories.
Speaker 3
Well, what what really silences it is if it starts eliminating it, you know. So, like, if there aren't any stories left. So if you are a woman who your mother you're born by a cesarean. Your mother was so when I go to Russia, there there's we're we're approaching the fourth generation of cesarean born mother. Wow. And then they're trying to have a, a a a an out of hot an out of hospital birth. Mhmm. And they're underground too, of course. And but but where are the stories? Because the mothers don't have them. The aunts don't have them. And that's really silencing. What you're talking about is a very, unfortunate instinct injured western female. Mhmm. Western raised female. By western, I don't mean old west, but the the the west. Mhmm. This is kind of globalizing the planet. And that is we don't wanna hurt anybody's feelings. We don't wanna make somebody feel bad. Mhmm. We don't wanna look superior. And that's that is a self silencing.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. Yeah. You're right.
Speaker 3
Silence because we don't don't have anything to say. And that's not even the woman who's said, please don't talk to me about that, which I wish more women who were pregnant and then someone's telling them a horror story. Right? They that they I know. Please don't tell me that story. You know? And I know with my daughter, when she she was having her first baby three day forty three weeks, three day labor, pushed to seven hours, like, this long, long experience. And that's what she said, you know, and then toward the end is tell me the stories of the women who didn't give up.
Speaker 2
Oh, that's beautiful.
Speaker 3
That's what she wanted to hear. But so these other women, we've got to if we start creating more women circles and and, village prenatals by a village prenatal, I don't mean that somebody's checking someone's pee. But we're we're gathering together in the communities, taking back birth in that way of, like, knowing the women that are pregnant, feeding them, laughing with them, walking with them, getting to know their baby. The those those mothers, no matter where they're birthing, are birthing so much better. We we're just changing statistics like crazy because because they're not afraid of birth. They're just hearing all these power stories. They're getting excited and not being afraid. Facing something mysterious is very different than facing something mysterious if you're afraid.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. And the same with breastfeeding, you know, how many women have said to me, you know, I was having all these troubles and then I realized I had never seen anyone breastfeed before. Right. And it just wasn't even in their reality. It was, like, conceptual.
Speaker 3
Right. Right. Of course. Absolutely.
Speaker 2
My, you know, that's that's my big concern. I'll see if I can articulate it very well in this moment, but you mentioned it already, but losing connectivity to nature, which we already have. I mean, we're generations deep into that. I feel like we're looking around and and we're seeing that we're losing biological functions. You know, we're losing birth being normal and easy or breastfeeding being normal and easy.
Speaker 3
Right.
Speaker 2
And I don't mean to idolize some ancient time where everything was perfect or anything like that. But, you know, we do know that when you live in villages or even like you're mentioning these village prenatals, when you look around and you see women who are weeks or months ahead of you, who are breastfeeding or healed or hearing their power stories, I mean, that creates a normalcy and an actual tangible reality in your brain that the majority of women don't have.
Speaker 3
But we can reclaim it. We can reclaim it. And, like, for me, little village little village community at a time. So even in even in Moscow where there's this concrete, we will we will go down to the bottom floor and walk outside and howl at the moon. I mean, we can start there there's stars overhead. There's underneath of the concrete. We can Yeah. There's dirt somewhere. We create songs. We, hey. Can I sing you one of them?
Speaker 2
Of course. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Okay. I'll I'll share it because it it we'll share it with the world. It just came out of our little, our little community here. But we but but I sing it all over the world, and we sang it yesterday. But it so it's like this. Precious child of the universe, come on through. Come on through. Precious child of the universe, come on through. Come on through. It is just a tiny trip you can do. You can do. It is just a tiny trip. You can do. You can do. So stretch your little toes and wag your little head. Your mama wants to nurse you in her snuggie wuggie bed. Precious child of the universe, come on through. Come on through. So we often get the women in a circle and that are pregnant, and we we dance around them and we sing that song and tell it to spin their bones so that we've created an elephant circle, so to speak, that's with them when they're birthing even though we're not there.
Speaker 2
It's so beautiful.
Speaker 3
It's so easy. Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And it's so easy. Exactly.
Speaker 3
But but we've just gotta start creating them all over the world and, letting letting the the the community not be afraid to, like, tell the happy stories, tell the power stories, touch the belly, talk to the baby, rub the feet, feed the mama. You know, because we've we've just handed that over to a professional and they're they're just a terrible job at it.
Speaker 2
Well, like you said, I mean, it when I don't know if you if you said this on this call or when we were talking earlier, but when people come to these gatherings, it doesn't matter where they're birthing or how they're birthing. They just get to show up as pregnant women in that space. Yeah. So do you have any sort of, I don't know, like, tips for somebody who's listening who wants to start something like this in their community?
Speaker 3
Sure. Well, first of all, there is a yeah. I often teach that at a conference or something. It's a whole whole big I don't mean to say training. It's not a training, but just talking about how do you get a village prenatal going. Again, by prenatal, I don't you know, prenatal care is not something that you do to go see somebody. Like, it's the prenatal care of a mother is is how she's sleeping, how she's walking, how she's eating. Like, between visits, that's her care. That's what's really caring for her and everything.
Speaker 2
Totally. Yes. You said I've been chuckling to myself even making this declaration that I'm doing my own prenatal care, and it's like, well, no
Speaker 3
no shares. Yeah. Exactly. You are doing it. You are the one doing it for sure. For sure. So, so I have I have taught that, and I have a a handout that I'd be happy to, like, if someone emailed me on sister at sister morning star dot com, and I'd be happy to, email that to them. Because I was teaching that in Australia and some of the a wonderful, midwife student at the time. She took these amazing notes of of what I was
Speaker 2
taught. Nice.
Speaker 3
Yeah. And she drew she drew while she took the notes. Like, so it's got little little Cool. Wild haired women walking to the well. Like because I say it's like when we used to walk to the well together. Right?
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 3
When we walked to the well, we noticed if a mother was kind of, like, had a hitch in her get along or a little pale or had a tear running down her cheek or, you know, when we walk to the well together, we we notice these things. And and we don't just ignore that. We, like, sit and talk or bring her some food. And and that's what the prenatal village is about. It's just somebody caring enough to have some space, usually a home, not not a not a professional space, a home. Sure. Just a kitchen and a bathroom, even if it's an outhouse. And, and some nature if it's at all possible. But like I said, you can help the moon in Moscow if you need to. Mhmm. And everybody brings food that's healthy, and everybody brings only a positive story. All we have other gatherings, other fire circles for people who have trauma because they they need to talk too. Everybody's story needs heard, but pregnant women need to hear power stories and positive stories. So only positive stories. And then we we rub each other's feet while we tell power stories, or we walk to the creek and sit in the water and tell power stories. And we and I ask two questions, only two questions every time, every every prenatal village. And the first question is, what is your ideal birth? Like, if you could birth any way you want to. And lots of times they'll say, oh, well, I just want a healthy baby or and great. You know? And but if you could do it any way you want to, what would it look like? And that changes if they come first trimester or second, third trimester. I was in Arizona earlier this year, and there was a woman that was ethnically displaced from Columbia. She had just gone here to the States. And it was her first baby. If you're out there, you're just so amazing. I bow to you. But she was planning a birth. I think it was even in, like, a birth center or out of hospital birth. And she's like, oh, you know, I I just you know, a healthy baby and, you know, maybe peaceful, this or that. And I said, close your eyes just any way you want to. How what would it look like if it was your ideal? And she talked for ten minutes and described these amazing things that were from her people. There would be drummers outside, a circle of drummers. There would be someone downstairs in the kitchen making tortillas. There would be and, you know, she just she knew in her bones what would be her ideal. I can't remember. She wanted a person in water, like, under stars, or I don't remember. Just tons and tons of clarity. And then, you know, her baby's slipping out. And I always remind people, but don't forget the placenta. How you gonna what's your ideal on your you guys birth two things at least. At least. At least. At least two things you got birth.
Speaker 2
Well, that's the it's the it's the courage to really let yourself dream and change your thing and dream and then vocalize it.
Speaker 3
Emily, she birthed like that. No way. She birthed like that. She wrote me later and she's like, you know, I would have never even thought about it, but you asked me. And that's why I asked you and I'm I'll keep asking you as you move along. I'm sure I'll I'll talk to you again and see you again because you're a a a beautiful being. But she births like that. That's so cool. So I asked that question. What's your ideal birth? And then and then I asked, right now, you know, what's your biggest fear or worry or concern? And if they've got other children, often they're concerned about how their toddler's gonna do or or if they've torn before, they're concerned about, you know, their bottom tearing. There's so much trauma right now with pelvic trauma. Terrible. It's unnecessary. So awful. We've just got so much to reclaim, and we can. We we can reclaim it. But but I have them close their eyes and just what is your ideal? And then what is your concern? And then the other thing in the prenatal village is we don't solve people's problems. We don't tell people what to do. We don't say, oh, you should do this or, you know, even if they say, oh, my concern is x y z, we don't we have two responses besides our stories. Our stories are our stories. If you can get something from them, great. And, of course, people do. But the response to my their ideal birth, collectively, we say, may it be so. And then when they tell us their concern, we say, we are here for you. And, of course, we tell stories and sometimes the stories have all kinds of ideas in them for people. Sure.
Speaker 2
That's beautiful. Well, with your permission, maybe I can share the prenatal, village handout, with my networks for women who are interested.
Speaker 3
Yeah. We could do that. That would be so much easier.
Speaker 2
That way you don't have to individually
Speaker 3
Remember, I'm off the grid so I Exactly. Only go to town sometimes to do email.
Speaker 2
We'll we'll keep it simple.
Speaker 3
I'll make a note of that, Emily, and I'll That's beautiful. Emily because I have your, email address. The
Speaker 2
It it's making me think of last a couple months ago, I was invited when I was in Maui last. I was invited to an elder circle, and it's typically just elder women. And, and one of the women brought me. And so I was just in a beautiful home in Wailau overlooking the ocean and very similar. They all knew the ground rules, so they didn't go over any of that. But it was, there was a topic, and I guess they met every Friday. A beautiful, beautiful group of women all over, I would guess, over fifty five maybe. And there's a topic every week and, then everyone just took turns sharing however they organized around that topic and whatever it was that they had to share. And I have done a lot of those circles with women my age, but I've never been in the presence of elder women doing that. And I was so struck with how beautiful it was and how the same it was of the space that we were holding, you know, many decades younger than these women. And it it they did similar stuff where they had a response. They didn't fix anyone's problems. They just said some I can't remember what it was now, but something like that to everybody. And I think it was just I hear you or something beautiful and simple. And I I walked out of there thinking, this needs to happen
Speaker 3
a very powerful going.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 3
Wherever you are.
Speaker 1
Join us next week to hear the rest of Sister Morningstar's story. I wanna hear from you. If you have a question, comment, story to share, or an episode idea, find me on free birth society dot com and send me a message. Also, reviews on iTunes are awesome. It helps spread the podcast to more listeners. Let's build and connect this community. That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
