Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldea.
Speaker 1
Welcome. Welcome to our first VBAC show. Today, we have Diana from Seattle, Washington with a true story of victory. Diana shares how her emergency c section was caused by the interventions she received in her birthing experience. Diana says, I'd like people to know about how the cascade of interventions caused an emergency c section. The cascade being anesthesia to then pitocin, then the pitocin causing heart d cells, and therefore causing an emergency, and of course, then needing a surgical birth to save the baby. When Diana found herself pregnant again, she knew that she needed to do everything she could to have a vaginal birth with her second, which was beautifully accomplished at home on her own terms in the bed where her child was conceived. This is a true tale of overcoming fear and learning to trust in one's ability to birth vaginally and naturally after a surgical birth. This is a healing and triumphant story.
Speaker 2
I found out that I was pregnant when, my husband and I were engaged, and we were planning, a wedding actually at Burning Man. So I found out, yeah, it was very, very fun, but not definitely not a planned pregnancy. We slept in a big van, like, picture like a, yeah, like a big van that just, like, we threw down a mattress in the back, and that's where we slept. And we're part of a camp of, like, fifteen other people. So Right. It it it definitely is something I would have chosen to do pregnant, but but we were completely committed because we're getting we're getting married, and we had, you know, all the all these plans. And so it it I went, and it was fine, and my baby was fine. And, you know, it was a very interesting start to the pregnancy, I'd say. Totally. Okay.
Speaker 3
So you you got married out there?
Speaker 2
Yeah. We got married out there. I I've always been, very, very interested in birth. For some reason, even though this was not a planned pregnancy, you know, I don't even think we had really talked about having babies yet, and I certainly wasn't really planning on being a mother mother anytime soon, but I I've always been really interested in birth. I've always loved to read birth stories, and I've always been, really appreciative of the midwifery model of care as opposed to a more traditional medical model to handle pregnancy and childbirth. It just always made a lot of sense to me to to birth in the company of women and
Speaker 3
The original the original tradition. Precisely. Yeah. And I don't Yeah.
Speaker 2
I don't really know where I got that idea. You know, I come from a pretty traditional family, and I was, you know, born in a hospital, and my mom had drugs and all those things. And so I don't really know where I got that. But I I knew when I found out I was pregnant that I definitely wanted to birth at home. No question. There's no way I wanted to be in a hospital. And, I had no idea how my husband would take it. But to his credit, he said, yeah. That makes perfect sense. Of course, you'd wanna be at home. Yeah. God bless him. So so that's the birth that we planned. We got home from Burning Man. I got, found a midwife, locally here in Seattle who was great, a practice of two midwives, and proceeded to have a very uneventful, healthy pregnancy. My baby was due, what was it, the very end of February. And nothing was unusual about the the his pregnancy until, I would say, the very, very end, the weeks leading up to his birth, right around thirty nine weeks or so. I started to feel really, really, really uncomfortable. Like, really like, walking was hard, and all of my internal organs just felt totally smashed. But, you know, I thought, well, this is probably what every pregnant woman feels like at the end of pregnancy. I mean, it's it's there's, like, a lot of baby in there. Mhmm. And I had the feeling that he was not a tiny baby. My husband and I are petite people. We're not very big people, but he kinda felt like I don't know. Maybe this is a bigger baby. But, again, I just didn't really know that your first time, you just don't really know what it feels like. Everything's so new. So, I reached my due date, and then another week passed. And I ended up not going into labor until forty one weeks and three days, and that was definitely the longest week of my life. But
Speaker 3
Yeah. That's
Speaker 2
Yeah. But once labor really started, I was super excited. I was so happy. I really didn't have any fear. I really this was an experience that I wanted to have. And even as I was in some pain and discomfort as contractions were getting stronger and stronger and more closer together and a little harder to manage, I I still felt very present with the experience. Like, this is really what I want to have. So my labor started on a Thursday morning and and kinda petered out midday, and then in the afternoon, became stronger and became a a active labor pattern. And so I think it was around eight PM that night or so. We called the doula and we called the midwife, and we sold up a birth pool. And, both of them came over, and I think I my my doula and my midwife were pretty hands off. They kinda just, like, let me labor. I labored all nights in the tub, and that was really kinda the only place that I felt like I could cope with the sensations that I was feeling. Anytime I would get out or try to change positions, it was just my body was like, nope. This is where you gotta be. So I labored there all night. I it around it's so funny to describe a birth story because you know how, like, time gets warped when you're in labor, and you're like, I don't know how long I did this or how long I did that. Your perception of time, yeah, really gets gets warped. So I I try to do the best to to stick to a timeline, but that can be challenging. It's okay. Okay. So so sometime in the morning, around probably around nine AM, where at which point, I would have been in labor for about a day and a half, I'd say. I was fully dilated according to my midwife, but there was something weird about, what I thought was my son's position. I could feel him really, really high up, like, right underneath my ribs. He never descended into my pelvis at all. And I can tell you now now that I've gone on to have, an unmedicated home birth, I know exactly what that feels like. It's a very distancing, and I never felt it with my firstborn son.
Speaker 3
So you you reached full dilation, though? I did. Yeah. And he just didn't descend? He didn't he was head down.
Speaker 2
I think that his head, like, was putting some pressure on my cervix because I'm I don't think I would have dilated completely if if that hadn't been the case. That's just what I think.
Speaker 3
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
But he was he was I could tell he was kinda off to a strange angle and just something it was I didn't know what it was. I I would find out later what it was, but something was off about it. And, at a certain point, my midwife started talking to me about, you know, what did I think was selling my labor, and did I feel like I needed to transfer to the hospital? And I had never even really thought of transferring until she said that. But when she said that and she asked me that question, I and I I should also say that that was really my greatest fear. I I went into this labor. I was not afraid of afraid of pain. I was not afraid of something bad happening to myself or my baby from being at home. I really, really trusted birth. I really did. But my one fear was I did not want to end up at a hospital. I really didn't want that. Sure. So when she so it was strange. When she asked me that, I kind of checked in with my gut, and my gut was telling me that I thought, excuse me, that something probably needed to change to get him out. And I didn't know what that was, but I I agreed at that point to transfer to a hospital. And I I also like to tell this part of the story because I think that it illustrates how safe a home birth really is. You know, you we had had a plan in place, had something, you know, of dire importance happen during the labor. We, you know, had a transfer plan that that would be a safety net if we really needed it. And, so we proceeded going to the hospital where we had talked about your transfer, so we had to. And, when I got there, I kind of was in a a bit of a survival mode where I knew I had to change something to get my baby out. I was in a lot of pain, and I felt not so much fear, but more like a a real deep sense of grief and sadness because I could feel the moment that I walked into the hospital, so much of my autonomy was taken away. I mean, you immediately sign papers that you cannot possibly read, and they immediately gave me drugs to, dull my pain. But Do you
Speaker 3
know what they gave you?
Speaker 2
I'm not even no. I'm not even sure. I don't even remember consenting, to be honest with you. I remember getting in there and things being done to me. And and I should say that I don't think that anyone there had any ill intent or that No.
Speaker 3
It's what they do. It's exactly.
Speaker 2
It's just what they do. If you go to a hospital, you're gonna receive certain things. And so You're
Speaker 3
on their on their turf. I wanted to ask ask you, did you, in your pregnancy, ever go to that transfer hospital and meet with your backup doctor Or, like, did did you kinda know that that was gonna happen? Or what was your relationship to
Speaker 2
the hospital prior? That's a great great question. I had no relationship to the to the hospital prior. I simply, did a little bit of research about the, my options. And the the particular hospital that I choose was one where in their labor and delivery floor, they do things like they don't continually staff an OR room. So and they're kind of like a smaller community hospital, and they have a much lower c section rate, I guess, is what I'm saying. I I I liked I liked their their stats, and I they were also very close. The other option would be a really, really large teaching hospital close by, and
Speaker 3
that just sounded no Yeah. They were a first, though.
Speaker 2
Exactly. Exactly. So it I I hadn't met with anyone or toured it, but it just sort of seemed like the most, the best choice. Oh, and, also, my midwife did have relationships with the nurses there, and and the staff kinda knew her. Mhmm. And what was
Speaker 3
the energy like when they received you? Was it positive, like, from the staff, or was it really dramatic? Was it negative?
Speaker 2
It was it was not really dramatic because I wasn't really in an emergency situation. My baby was healthy. I was a woman in full blown active labor, but it was a little bit kinda like I was a number. You know? I mean, nobody there knew me. Nobody there they had my my medical records, so they knew that, you know, I had received medical care during my pregnancy, but it was a little sterile. Mhmm.
Speaker 3
You know,
Speaker 2
like I said, I'm really grateful that no one was openly hostile to me because I have heard from women that transfer from a home birth situation that, you know, doctors and nurses can be a little bit antagonistic towards the nurses.
Speaker 3
I've been to hospital I've been to transfers in Los Angeles where they write on the whiteboard in the room, oh, you know,
Speaker 2
a sale. Oh my god. That that makes me so sad to hear.
Speaker 3
I mean, I'll just go wipe it off, but, of course, there's plenty of women who are not birthing with
Speaker 2
a support who would just go wipe it off
Speaker 3
the room. So they're birthing in a room that literally says on the wall, home birth fail.
Speaker 2
Wow. And that has to be a a more chill staff. Yeah. They were they were you know, it was it was definitely a stare I was like a thing. You know, I didn't really feel like a person, but no one was mean to me, and I appreciate that.
Speaker 3
Mhmm. Okay. So you get there. Things are happening to you. You're given some narcotics
Speaker 2
that to help relieve the pain. Yeah. They I'm I have, external monitors put on me. I have an internal monitor put in on his scalp. They, artificial You have the you have the fetal internal monitor? Yeah. They artificially Damn. They, yeah, they they they ruptured my waters, and then they put that on. And then Not a uterine monitor. It was the one fetal? The fetal monitor that they put on the scalp of the baby.
Speaker 3
That screws in. Oh.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Wow. Okay. I've never
Speaker 3
seen that. Was there a concern for the baby that that made them do that?
Speaker 2
Not that was communicated to me. I think that they were having a hard time getting the right, fetal heart tones that Totally. Yeah. That's why they didn't do it. From the external. Yeah. So so I just, like, got the whole shebang of, you know, everything that I that I really didn't want. And I I I hope that I'm not communicating this in a way that that that that seems to say that, you know, I was helpless, and I had terrible things done to me. I mean, I really don't fault anyone. I mean, I was I chose to go there, and I'm grateful that the experience was as positive as it could have been under circumstances, but it was definitely negative.
Speaker 3
It was definitely not ideal. And when you're going into your labor and having put time in your labor, expecting a certain form of care that revolves around informed consent and mother led birth and all of this stuff, when you go into a model that, I mean, is inherently traumatic to have stuff done to your physical body not being explained, and that's incredibly invasive. And that your you know, does have a level of, like you said, survival adrenaline, you know, savior kind of energy. It's it's scary.
Speaker 2
Absolutely. I I you're absolutely right. Yeah. You just go into this space in your head where you have to survive it. And, you know, I often wonder if we took any other birthing mammal, like a cat, and we did to a birthing mama cat what we do to to birthing women, human women, you know, in a hospital setting just routinely, I mean, what would we see happen to the complications that they had or or, like, a surgical birth rate? I mean, it just kinda blows my mind that that that it ever really works well in that setting. I'm not yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 3
We we would probably see very similar results that we see with with human mammals. You know? A high need for intervention, a lot of labors that stall or stop, and a high need for surgical birth because we're backing the mammals into a corner where their hormones, you know, are telling them they're not safe. And Right. You know, it's it's yeah. We I'm sure we would probably see the same stuff. Okay. So so you you have some all this stuff happening to you. You're full dilation. Baby's got internal monitoring. What happens next?
Speaker 2
What happens next very, very quickly. I you know, I was only we're talking about within a half hour to forty five minutes of my being there very, very quickly. They, oh, I I relevant. They also gave me Pitocin, which which in retrospect is so strange because I was totally in total full blown active labor. There was no problem with that. I I don't know if that's just standard practice that Totally.
Speaker 3
That happened. Completely routine. What what, so were you the only request that I mean, the only thing I would wonder is were you still contracting regularly?
Speaker 2
I was contracting regularly. Yeah. But when they gave me some pain medication, it did affect the, the pattern of the labor. So I I was still having contractions, but I they spaced out a little bit at that point and You know,
Speaker 3
their their their side is, like, let's get her two, three minutes apart because an intense aggressive uterus is gonna bring the baby down. That's like they're thinking. Mhmm. You know? But, of course, that can be also really stressful to the child.
Speaker 2
Well and that's the perfect segue into what happened next was that after the Pitocin was given, after a very, very short amount of time on the Pitocin, my son started having some heart decelerations or a pattern in his heart heart rate that they didn't wanna see. And at that point, it was an immediate c section. And Wow. I should tell you, my my doula was with me this whole time and my husband, and, I just turned and looked at them. And I looked at the doctor and said, could we please have five minutes and talk about this? And they said, nope. You cannot. And I was immediately separated from my doula and my husband and wheeled away. And I have to also say, one of the one of the best things about doulas that I don't know if people always think about is that, like, in a situation like that, I was so grateful. This is this is a moment of grace in this whole experience that she was able to be with my husband and Mhmm. Leave him all alone. And I'm sure that I wasn't with them, but I'm sure that she talked him through, you know, like, what he was gonna see and what was gonna happen. Mhmm. And she was totally a support for him too, and it was such a blessing to have her there. So that that was really a a moment of grace in this whole this whole experience.
Speaker 3
Absolutely. They support the whole family. They really do.
Speaker 2
Oh, they really do. I'm I'm so grateful that she was there. So I've
Speaker 3
definitely I've definitely been to more births than I could count where I felt like I I left the birth realizing I was only there to support the partner.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that the mom, you know, the mom was fine, but it was the partner that was the
Speaker 3
doula the whole time.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that's that's so important. That's that's a wonderful service to give to a couple
Speaker 3
of newborns.
Speaker 2
Midwife your midwife bounced? She stayed for she stayed for as long as she could. She stayed for probably probably about an hour. But, you know, she had been up over twenty four hours with me at that point or at least at my house at that point. And, also, you know, she was in a hospital where she had no, you know, privileges or rights, and and she was very I have no complaints with her at all. She was very kind, very respectful. I could tell she didn't really wanna leave until I felt, like, kinda settled.
Speaker 3
How'd you feel about her her leaving?
Speaker 2
I felt like I I felt okay with it. You know, I in both of my birth, I I never some women describe having, like, a real mystical close bond with their midwives. For me, in both circumstances, the work of birth is just so much work that, like, they're kinda off to the side. I I never really had, like, a super, super close bond with with the women attending my birth. You know? Mhmm. It's more it felt a little bit more like a formality that they were here. And and, yes, they can provide, you know, medical care and also some really good suggestions. But I didn't I definitely didn't feel abandoned. I felt like she needed to go rest because she had been, you know, through a very, very, very long labor with me too, and and we're actually, we're still friends. She's a good person.
Speaker 3
So Nice. Nice. So, like, your doula. I mean, it is I'm asking because it is standard for midwives and transfers. You know, most midwives I've ever intersected with, they, you know, give the doctor or hospital midwife the down low, and then they they leave. And Mhmm. It's something personally that I take issue with. And that's not to say that it's wrong. You know, it's it's been just my personal as a doula. I've always felt like they it's very rare that I hear of a midwife telling the mom, hey. If we transfer, I'm gonna leave. And so I've been with Mhmm. A lot of moms who I don't know if they'd go as extreme as saying abandoned, but, it's it's, to me, I've always found it, and I'm glad that wasn't your experience. I've always found it weird that parents pay midwives, you know, to be with them. And then the second they transfer, which for many, many, many home birth transfers winds up being very traumatic, The midwife's not there to bear witness to it and then therefore help debrief and, you know, if these people don't have doulas, it's always just felt like a gap in care to me.
Speaker 2
It is. I that is a extremely valid perspective, and I I totally agree with you. And I it's, that's why at least part of the reason why I think that women who are home birth transfer, birth women have kind of a unique trauma in a way that that does kinda need to be addressed because there is a a definitely a gap in the continuum of care. It can be very, very scary. Mhmm. You know, my experience is quite traumatic, but the abandonment part wasn't really there for me. But I I absolutely see that perspective too.
Speaker 3
And you had a great doula and a great partner and
Speaker 2
I did.
Speaker 3
Did. I mean, this trauma of your story doesn't seem like it's to do with the
Speaker 2
midwife on you know? No. It wasn't. So you
Speaker 3
get whisked you get whisked away, not giving you time to really wrap your head around it with your family.
Speaker 2
Right. They didn't even really tell me anything. They just said the baby's heart rate is doing scary things. We need to get him out right now. You're getting a connection. And that's it. I it was it was a horrible experience. I wish to be honest with you, it this is a very sad thing to to say about your child's birth, but I wish I didn't remember it. It was it was horrible. I I I was given an epidural, and I was, you know, numb from the chest down. But, having a surgery like that when you're awake is so I don't even have words for it. It's like, it's like spiritually traumatic. It was like it it was I could feel everything that they were doing. I felt myself separate from my body. Totally. I I don't even have words for how traumatic it was. It was a horrific experience, and it would have been better if I had not even seen my my son's, you know, his the my the him out for the first time. And I know that not all women feel that way about their c sections, and that's awesome. You know? I I I felt like it was just so traumatic. I could feel what they were doing. I felt my organs being moved out of my body. I could I could I could hear them talking. I saw blood. It was just, you know I don't wanna get too drastic and scary, but it was it was a terrible it was a terrible thing to go through. But it it did happen very quickly, and, they pulled them out, and I Was your
Speaker 3
husband in the OR? Yeah. They he
Speaker 2
made it in on time. He well, he and my doula, sat by my head, and they were so they're so that's another moment of grace that when I think about my experience, it's just so beautiful because they I remember just looking up and seeing four pairs of beautiful brown eyes. My husband has these gorgeous brown eyes, and my doula had the most beautiful brown eyes too. And they were just looking at me, and I could tell they were trying to communicate, like, we're here. We love you. You're safe. Mhmm. Even though I wasn't really safe, I I felt very supported by them in that moment, and that was really beautiful. It was really beautiful. So very quickly, my baby is out. They they whisk him away. I can see, like, a tuss of thick black hair, and, I hear him cry. And I and I look over to the side, and I hear the, the perinatologist or whoever the doctor is that takes the baby weighs him, and he goes, twelve pounds three ounces. Wow. And I and I go, no. Like, that's wrong. Like, I I I think I actually audibly said no. Like, that's not possible. Like, I'm, you know, I'm a small person. My husband's, like, five nine. You know, I'm a vegan. Like, there's no way I could grow a twelve pound baby. Like, it's just not possible. Wow. But I they they brought him over, and I and I got a better look at him. And he was huge. Wow. So big. He was so, so big. He was definitely twelve pounds.
Speaker 3
Did your midwives ever, when palpating, ever, you know, think, oh, wow. This feels like a bigger baby?
Speaker 2
No. She she never said anything to me about that that I recall. I do remember there was one and, you know, I should also mention, I know the ultrasounds are a terrible measure for, determining size, but I did have, like, the standard twenty week ultrasound. And, you know, obviously, we did the fundal height measurements, at every appointment. And I don't ever remember anyone saying to me, well, it looks like you have a really big baby. And so Yeah. Well, that goes
Speaker 3
to show that ultrasounds are totally
Speaker 2
They don't work. Yeah. Yeah. Estimations that aren't even necessarily based in yeah. Yeah. It was a it was a total, total shock. It was a total shock to me. I think it was a shock to everyone. You know, my during the pregnancy, I think I gained, like, twenty pounds. So my my weight gain didn't didn't, you know, like, correlate with with anything that would be of concern. It was just a shock. It was a whole shock, and I have plenty
Speaker 3
of have gestational diabetes or Nope. No. I was
Speaker 2
I was screened for gestational diabetes, and I did not have it. And, you know, at the hospital, when they saw that he was that big, one of the first things that I think that they did on him was blood sugar testing because they were obviously concerned. And he was fine. He didn't neither one of us had gestational diabetes. He just was a very, very small child. Yeah. And, you know, he still is. He's four years old now, and he's bigger than all his peers. He's Mhmm. Super tall. He wears, you know, the clothing of, like, a five or six year old. He's just a very large person. And and so, you know, I think that that I I think this. You know, no matter how he was gonna be born, I think it would have been a bit traumatic for my body. You know, I don't like to say that I had a c section because I had a twelve pound baby because I know there are women that birth twelve pound babies. I mean, that can happen. And
Speaker 3
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
I I don't really know if I would have, you know, really pushed through if if it would have worked out for me, to have him vaginally at home. I I just feel like the way that it happened was part of our story and, has given me perhaps a perspective that I, you know, wouldn't otherwise have. And his birth was gonna be difficult no matter what. That's really Yeah.
Speaker 3
And it sounds like he was malpositioned
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 3
You know, kind of regardless of size or because of the size. Who knows? He was already malpositioned. So Yeah. You know? Yeah. So something probably would have needed to happen. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So that's that's my that's the story
Speaker 3
of my So
Speaker 2
what for some sort of
Speaker 3
was your postpartum experience like in the the processing of
Speaker 2
such a intense story? It was very hard. I you know, in retrospect, I had, some PTSD. I was definitely a little bit depressed for a long time, and I wish that I had done some work around that. But, you know, when you're a brand new mom I was really just like any other brand new mom trying to figure out what being a mom is like and learning to breastfeed. And breastfeed was or breastfeeding was extremely challenging for at least the first three months of his life, and I I know it was because of the trauma. My body, like, remembered the trauma and and was just my poor my poor body just was trying its best, you know, to do what it needed to do, but it really affected me deeply. And so I had a very difficult postpartum time. I think that the hardest part I mean, fortunately, I healed physically very well. Like, in terms of the surgery, I healed very well, and that that's that is wonderful. But, it felt like a real spiritual shattering. Like, I it shattered everything that I believed. I mean, like I told you before, I went into this birth really with no fear. I really trusted that women's bodies you know, if we leave our bodies alone, we can birth. And and I certainly was humbled by this experience. I certainly had my worldview shattered quite a lot. And, you know, of course, you do all the things where you wonder, like, could I have done anything differently? Did I do something wrong? So I there were a lot of emotions. It was very a very, very hard time. Definitely a very hard time. So, as you can imagine, I was definitely not planning on having another baby because that experience was so shattering for me. And I also knew enough about the culture of birth in the state where I live and and, I guess, in the US in general that once you have a surgical birth, you're treated differently by, hospital staff if you are allowed to, I'm using air quotes, try Mhmm. For Yeah. A vaginal birth. They they even have a term for it that I really hate, which is called a trial trial of labor, which is so much of a colac. It's so Yeah. It's so expensive.
Speaker 3
It's so expensive. Bringing VBAC or, you know, VBAC attempting moms into the hospital and and calling them a Tolac right
Speaker 2
in front of their face. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3
So I wanted to ask real quick with Washington, what is the VBAC, kind of consensus? Is it easy to is are are the midwives allowed to attend VBAC? Is it, what's what's, like, the the deal there?
Speaker 2
I can tell you. So, women are allowed to attempt for a VBAC in a hospital with an obstetrician, not with a not with a midwife. And, fortunately, I am finding, you know, through other women that I've connected with through our local ICAN group that, there are a lot of doctors in our in our area that practice in hospitals here in Seattle that are very feedback friendly. And that hasn't always been the case, but it's recently been changing a lot. That's really wonderful to hear. Mhmm. Women who have had a two section are not it's against the law for us to have a a birth center birth. We're not allowed to do that. And then as far as home birth midwives, it it exists in a completely legal gray zone. As I understand it, it's it's very strange. So most home birth midwives will not attend, VVAC clients. However, there are some that feel really passionately about, that women should have that option that will attend us at home, but they don't advertise it because, as I understand it, it's not technically illegal, but they're not really supposed to do it. Like, their insurance doesn't cover it or something like that. Okay. So they will you and and this kinda will get into a little bit of the story of my my second, pregnancy and birth. There are you can get connected with, like, an underground, group of women that, you know, really believe passionately in, working at home and getting the chance to have a a v back at home who maintain, like, a list of single home birth midwives that would yeah. So so I got my son that
Speaker 3
How old was your first kid when you got pregnant with
Speaker 2
your second son? He was two years old when I got pregnant with my second son. And, you know, like I told you, we we were not planning on having another baby because I just could not imagine, you know, going through I couldn't first of all, I couldn't imagine stepping foot in a hospital at all. Again, I mean, that was just first thing there, I knew would be a disaster. I knew that I I if I if I went into a hospital with my second baby, I would have another c section. I knew it.
Speaker 3
Well and it's, like, so crazy to expect a person who was traumatized in a place to return to that place of trauma, which is going to subconsciously trigger the trauma again and then expect a different experience. You know? Like, that's just not how, like, the basics work.
Speaker 2
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So so when my son was two and I became unexpectedly pregnant again, birth control just does not seem to work for us. So I was terrified. I think I spent, like, a week crying. I was so upset. I I just and it wasn't that I didn't have love in my heart for another baby, but it was just that I couldn't imagine I was scared. I didn't know what my options were. I didn't know if I would even be able to find a midwife, to to see me again. I knew I couldn't set foot in the hospital. I just felt very, very trapped and very scared.
Speaker 3
How did you feel about knowing that the hospital was out for you? How did you feel about, you know, attempting or or having a home birth with your given your last story?
Speaker 2
I was afraid of having another big baby for sure. But but in terms of, like, you know, some of the common things people talk about, like uterine rupture, I I didn't I didn't think that my that the c section itself was a cause of concern. I I just kinda knew what the science, you know, tells us about that. You know, there's a great website called v back facts dot dot org that that will ease your fears, you know, if you're afraid that you've had a c section and that makes you not a very good candidate for a vaginal birth. There's lots of really good information out there. So so it wasn't the prior surgery itself that scared me, but I was I was nervous I was gonna have another really, really big baby and a challenging labor experience because of that, but not because not because of me inherently or not because of the surgery.
Speaker 3
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
So so I I remembered I I you know, in the midst of all this fear and, you know, terror and and, you know, uncertainty and not knowing what I was gonna do to get this baby to Earth side, I suddenly had a memory. And this is why I really love to share my story because I hope that I provide this for somebody else. So I I had this memory that I had been in a prenatal prenatal yoga class with my first baby, and our yoga teacher had somehow, in a very grace gracious way without scaring all of us pregnant women, she had shared her birth stories. And she had two babies, and the first baby was an emergency c section. I think it was like a a, like, a true emergency, like a placenta a placenta issue, like, something really, really serious. And her second baby was born at home with midwives. And I remember she shared the story very sweetly and casually in class, and I remember thinking, wow. What incredible courage that she did that. Like, wow. That must what an incredible woman. And, of course, I thought that's never gonna happen to me. Of course. I mean, I would never find myself in that position because I'm not gonna have a c section, but, wow, that's really phenomenal that she accomplished that. And so I remembered I remembered well, someone shared their story that they actually had a home birth and a beautiful birth too after a very, very challenging one that didn't look at all like what she wanted it to look like. So I remembered that. And then I also remembered that I had her email. So I emailed my former yoga, prenatal yoga teacher, and I introduced myself. I said, you probably don't remember me, but, here's the situation that I'm in. And I remember that you shared the story of your children's birth. And I find myself in a very similar situation, and can you give me any guidance? And she actually remembered who I was and wrote me back immediately.
Speaker 3
Awesome.
Speaker 2
She was so gracious and so awesome, and she said, get in touch with your local iCAN group right away. They will help you out. They will support you if you need another food section. They will answer your questions. They will get you a list of midwives that will see you, like, get in touch with them right away. So that's what I did. And through that group, I just I just can't recommend ICANN enough. They they're just incredible. And I believe that there's a chapter in every single major city in the US. So through that group, I got a list of local midwives that were known to currently be taking VBAC clients for their home birth practice. And I just went down the list, and I called every single one. And as it turned out, there was only one on that list that was that was reasonably close to me that would that would accept me as a client. It turns out that that the practice that I ended up seeing, they only take, like, one a month because
Speaker 3
One client or one
Speaker 2
One one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one One One one v back. Specifically the real work really started there because I really had to find the courage to to do this again. And I I really hadn't you know, in retrospect, it would have been real smart if after my first son's birth, I received some therapy or some counseling or or, you know, did perhaps some spiritual healing work around his birth that I really hadn't. And now I found myself in a place where, you know, the universe was really forcing me to confront, what that experience was like and and how it goes from there. Now. It's on now. Yeah. It was on in a very, very, very big way. And I had to really, you know, I had to really, really take responsibility for this birth. I mean, really take responsibility for it on all levels. I think that if I had had a very simple straightforward first birth, that would have been incredible and awesome. But, I would have been maybe just a little cocky. I would have just been, I would have approached the second birth very, very differently. And I'm it was an incredible time of make really listening to my intuition, really making sure that I was being honest with hearing my own inner voice as to what is the best way to bring this baby into the world as opposed to what are my fearful loves. And, am I making decisions based out of fear? Or am I making decisions based out of what what I know intuitively is best for those I
Speaker 3
mean, that's that's about the deepest wisdom right there is to be able to identify are these decisions out of intuition and truth or out of fear. Exactly. I'm so glad you were able to connect to that. Exactly. Well, yeah.
Speaker 2
I mean, I had to. And, you know, the the answer I I thought many, many times, you know, do I I thought if I end up with another very, very large baby in a very challenging labor and I have another emergency c section with strangers, that would shatter me. Like, I did not think that I could come back from that experience going through that again. So I had to really be clear. Diana, is this really the right way to bring your baby into the into the world to have another home birth, or do you go to the hospital, and would that be the right choice? You know, I had to be really, really clear, and the answer I kept getting was to trust that you can do this, that you can have your baby at home and that this is gonna be a different experience and it's a different baby.
Speaker 3
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And so I trusted that. I trusted that, and I, did a lot of work. I practiced a lot of yoga. I practiced a lot of meditation. I prayed a lot. I talked to the baby a lot, and I tried to really, really listen to him and get a sense of who he was. And he he was always a presence that that really gave me a lot of peace and reassurance. So, as you can imagine, this time during the pregnancy, we were all keeping a very close eye on the baby's size as much as we can.
Speaker 3
Gonna ask about that.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And, you know, once again, like, I I'm really not a fan of ultrasounds, but I did have two during the pregnancy, and they both showed a very average sized baby. And, again, I didn't really know if I should trust it or not, but, that's what it showed. And, you know, the I would always ask the midwives when they palpated my belly, you know, what do you think about his size? The and the answer was always he seemed like a very average sized baby. And I could tell too once I got to the very end of my pregnancy that, I could feel he was smaller and, you know, because now I I had the experience of carrying a really big baby and what that felt like. And this time, it felt different. He felt he didn't feel as big. I I don't think I got as big. He just felt he felt like a smaller baby to me. And, and I remember at the very, very end of my pregnancy on my due date right at my forty week, appointment with my midwife, I left the appointment. Everything was normal, great, fine. I walked home. I, you know, had all my homework supplies. I was ready to go into labor any day. And I just had this amazing, otherworldly chill go up my spine as I was walking out of the office that it was a strong, strong knowing that this is going to work. You're gonna have your baby. You're gonna have this experience. I just got goosebumps. It was incredible. And, you know, I I wanna be careful because I don't wanna imply, that, you know, the way that I wanted to birth is the way that all women should birth or should want to birth. But just for me personally, I I so wanted to be fully present for the birth of my son. I wanted to feel what it felt like to push him out of my body. I wanted to not be anesthetized. I didn't want any part of me to be numb or out of it or cloudy. I really, really wanted to be present, and I knew that experience would be challenging. And I knew it would be painful, and I knew it would be hard. And I knew it would require me to, find a strength that I that I've never had before, but I wanted that. I wanted the challenge. I wanted all of it. I really wanted to feel it, and I I knew it was gonna happen. I just had this moment where this is I knew it. It was like the God was telling me, like, get ready, Diana. This is gonna work this time. That's awesome. Yeah. It it was incredible. So that very, very night, the night of my due date, I woke up at about two AM in the morning in full blown labor. I mean, it was like it was like I woke up with very, very, very strong contractions two minutes apart. It was like starting it was like this labor started in the middle, like, what the middle part of my labor with my first son was. It was like days off
Speaker 3
of labor. Through early labor. Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So it was it it felt like a totally different labor pattern and a different experience. Very, very hard, strong, effective, close together, contractions right right at two AM. Just bam, shot me out of bed. So I got up, and I I immediately filled the bathtub because I remembered that last time that was really the only way that I could get comfortable. And I tried to, you know, let my husband sleep. My son, my two year old son was sleeping in our still sleeping in our, room at that time, so I tried to, like, let them both sleep a little bit and until I had to wake them up. And I got into the bathtub, and this time, again, the labor was just totally different. I was very uncomfortable in the bathtub. The the water made me feel like I was trapped. It didn't it didn't actually relieve any of the sensations I was feeling. So I it it just felt totally different. It was so strange. And and I could tell that labor was moving really fast. I could tell it was just happening super, super fast. And after only about an hour of my being up up and alone and trying to, you know, let my husband sleep and let my my son sleep, I will brought up, and I was like, we ought to we ought to call my doula right now and call the midwife because I'm in labor, and this is happening so fast. And it it it happened fast. We called we made the call. My husband moved my son to a different room in the house where he could hopefully sleep through the labor. And my my midwife and my doula, showed up about four AM, so this was now two hours into labor. And I was just in it. I mean, totally in it, totally in active labor, working very, very hard. I could also I could feel my baby was right in my pelvis. I could feel him, like, moving apart my pelvic bones and my hip bones were moving. Nice. I actually feel it. It was so incredible. It was what I never felt the first time.
Speaker 3
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And so I knew this was happening fast, and it was incredible and, you know, also extremely painful, very challenging, and a
Speaker 3
very very You have that layer of gratitude for what you're feeling and what you're experiencing that seems to really, really be able to motivate women having VBAC.
Speaker 2
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I I mean, yeah, I wanted this experience like nothing else. I really, really wanted it. And, you know, I I I mentioned earlier in this interview that I never had a real super warm and fuzzy relationship with my midwives, and that's definitely true. The second time around, they they were very hands off and not really cheerleader y. You know, they were they were never like, you can do this. They were just kinda there. And I actually in retrospect, when I reflect on that birth, the second birth, I don't see that as a bad thing because I I had this baby totally on my own. I mean, nobody nobody really, like like, my my doula was there and she tried to be supportive, but I was really in my own space. And it was really just me and my son, really just me working this baby out. And I remember at at some point, like, the the the midwife giving me a suggestion about, like, we tried the birth stool or she was giving me some suggestions about pushing, and none of it was relevant. Nothing that anyone sent to me in labor was relevant because I was birthing this baby, and no one else would be the baby. Yeah. It it so so I liked that I didn't have, like, a super warm and fuzzy support because I can look back, and I draw so much strength from the fact that, no, nobody could really say anything to make me feel better. Like, nobody could take away this pain. Like, it was a challenge that I went through and that I did. So so getting back to the timeline, my my middle aged my doula got there around four AM, and I labored from for about the next four hours. And right at eight, around eight AM, I was sitting I was in an upright position sitting on my bed, probably the exact same place where he was conceived. And I my husband was sitting behind me. And this is another thing. I kinda thought that I didn't want my husband with me for some reason. I don't know why. I kinda just stopped, like, before the labor that I was gonna want him to be with my two year old son so that my son wouldn't be scared or, you know, know what was going on. But as it turned out, when the baby was very, very close to being born, I I I call I told my my doula, I was like, please please look at my husband because I really want him here. So my doula went down and stayed with my two year old son who who stayed asleep the whole time. And my husband came up, and he sat behind me, and he kinda held held me around, my arms. And I was sitting up in my bed, probably the exact same place where he was conceived, like I said. And my baby, I pushed him out. Nobody touched me. Nobody did anything. He slipped right out of my body, and I felt that, I just think this is so cool. I kinda geek out about birth, but, the fetal ejection reflex where Mhmm. You just reach a point and the baby goes and just comes right out. He came right up onto my chest. He was he cooped all over me or peed all over me. I can't remember one of those. And he was just super alert, didn't cry, looked right up into my arms. I my my husband immediately, like, kinda screwed it out from behind me, and he took a few pictures. And when you go back and you look at pictures of that moment right after the baby was born, you you would have thought that I did, like, a boatload of ecstasy. I mean, I Oh, yeah. I am glowing. Like, I've never glowed like that before, and I had just, you know, been in labor for whatever it was, six hours. Mhmm.
Speaker 3
But you did it.
Speaker 2
But I did it. It it was an incredible moment. Another cool thing is that I got to, this time, keep my placenta and consume it afterwards. And I really wanted that first time, and I didn't get to do it. But this time, I got to see it. You know, it came out, and they kinda showed me, okay, this is the anterior wall. This is this is the wall where the baby was, and I just thought that was the coolest thing ever.
Speaker 3
Mhmm. It was so awesome.
Speaker 2
They're so beautiful, and it's so I don't know. It's just so magical to see that organ and then to be able to do pills or smoothies? We encapsulated it, and I I consumed it for, like, the first I I slowly consumed it for the first, I think, two or three months postpartum cycle every day. And, I I don't know if it's because I had a, you know, a completely unmedicated physiological birth or if it's because of the placenta or a combination of those two things. But this time, breastfeeding was, like, a a breeze. So easy. No problem. Super ample supply.
Speaker 3
And you had done it you had done it before, and you were traumatized.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's that too. I had a little bit of experience with it. But, yeah, it was definitely postpartum. Everything about postpartum was a was a much, much better experience this time. It was incredible.
Speaker 3
I love VVAC so much. I love VVAC stories so much. They're just they're the best stories because they're they're really the level of healing that occurs not just in the woman, but in the whole family is so even for the older kid, like, there is just a level of healing that happens that kinda, you know, closes the circle of trauma and, like, ends it in a in this victorious way. And it's you just you can't even really articulate how healing it
Speaker 2
is. You you said it beautifully. You said it beautifully. That's exactly what it is, and that's a hard thing for me to articulate with people. I think that there were people in my life that thought that I was perhaps being quite irresponsible to birth out of a hospital, after a c section. But I just rolled my eyes so hard. I I mean, I I don't I I do a lot of things that people don't agree with, and I
Speaker 3
don't at this point, I don't
Speaker 2
I do not care. So, yeah, you said it beautifully. It was so healing, and, man, I just have such a huge place in my heart for other VVAC moms. Mhmm. I'm still very active in my local ICANN group. And when when I get to see, you know, hear their stories and most of them are in the hospital. Some of them are out of the hospital. It just is I just have such a special place in my heart for those stories too. It's incredible. It's beautiful.
Speaker 3
It's so good. It's so important for people to hear these stories and, you know, I just I one of my favorite feedback memories, she became a a dear friend of mine afterwards, but she just for man, it was, like, thirty five hours or something, and she, of course, worked her ass off. And at the end for, like, an hour and a half, she just as she held her baby, she just cried. I did it. I did it. I did it. And just cried and cried and cried and, like, I'm just making me cry just thinking about it. It was good. It was just exactly that. It was the the chance to to know that you can do it when, for whatever reason, a normal physiological vaginal birth was taken away. You know, whether it was necessary or not necessary or whatever. Just this this, like, closing of the gap of question, you know, of of this, like, some level of, like, betrayal of your body or or distrust. Like, it like you said, it's kinda like it's shattering. It's kind of this, like, broken thing in your psychology that really makes you wonder, like, but I can do it. Right? Even if the circumstances, you know, this time didn't allow, I can do it. And to Right. To know and have that experience and feel your baby slip through your canal and getting all of that just the safety of what birth can provide, especially after trauma, it's just, it's so beautiful.
Speaker 2
It it is beautiful, and it's really, really important too because, you know, being a mother takes so much strength. It takes so much strength to be a mother, and it's it it it's hard to be a mother. And I I think that birth is designed so beautifully, actually, because when you give birth to your baby, you feel strong. You feel so strong. I mean, I still my my youngest baby is eighteen months old, and I take so much strength from the way that he was born every single day of my life. And I need that strength to be a mother. I, it you know, no matter what, you're gonna have challenges when you're when you're a parent. And, I just believe that, you know again, I wanna be careful. I'm not trying to say that there's a right or a wrong way to birth your baby, but I so want that for every woman. I want every woman to feel that she is as powerful as she is because, ma'am, women are so, so powerful. We really are.
Speaker 3
Well, and it really touches on kind of the essence of birth work and and the whole kind of, I think, reason that we're also obsessed with it is Yeah. You know, that when a woman you know, the spectrum of birth, of trauma to victory is quite wide. And lots of birth have elements of both. You know, lots of birth have when I hear the stories or when I witness birth, they have these, like, parts where they felt violated or or assaulted or, you know, made fun of or ridiculed or something happened without their consent. And then there's other parts of the story where they push that baby out or they said no to that, and it's like this, you know, very common to have this mixture. But so the spectrum is very wide. But at the end of the day, the like you just named, the women who are left destroyed after birth and and assaulted and traumatized and doubting in their body and, you know, whether they were lied to or or or what. You know? The the women who are left destroyed, that determines their postpartum period and and beyond. And it hugely affects their relationship to their baby and their partner and their family and their community and their next baby. You know, it goes on forever. And the women who are left powerful and, you know, strong and and grateful and they felt respected and supported and and, you know, all of that. Like, we can see it as birth workers, what that does to to the postpartum period, to the relationship with the partner, to the relationship to the baby, to the success of breastfeeding. You know, it it's all, like, so obvious when you see a lot of births that go a lot of different ways. And I think it's really the essence of why earth workers do what they do and why, you know, and why we're all so obsessed with this because Yeah. It is we can't afford to not try to tilt the odds in the favor of a woman feeling great. We can't afford, you know, to do it. Absolutely. Yeah. To to, like, act like that isn't important. Yes. I'm nodding
Speaker 2
my head in agreement with everything that you said. You said it beautifully. Absolutely.
Speaker 3
Well, I love this so much. I'm so grateful for your sharing, and I know that it will inspire, you know, other women. And, you know, a large reason why I'm doing this podcast is even if one woman somewhere in the world, you know, hears this one podcast and a little seed gets planted, you know, if everyone in her community and her doctor are filling her with fear and telling her that it's just too dangerous or whatever. If if one woman can hear this story and and know that there is choice beyond what is is being presented to her and and, you know, can turn to this story for connection and and sisterhood, I I we will have done our
Speaker 2
job. Yeah. I, you know, I very well could have been that one woman for the story that my prenatal yoga teacher told. I mean, that's she's the reason that I even knew it was possible. So that's what that's the exact same reason why I'm sharing my story, and thank you so much for letting me tell it on your podcast.
Speaker 3
Oh, thank you. Alrighty. Well, have a wonderful day. Thank you for sharing. Alright. Thank you too. Take care. Bye.
Speaker 1
That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of
Speaker 2
love.
