Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldea.
Speaker 1
Exciting news listeners. The Free Birth Society apparel store has opened. Head on over to free birth society dot com and check out the adorable onesies and toddler shirts, adult tank tops, hoodies, and more, all celebrating messages of free birth. Again, that's w w w dot free birth society dot com. I'm excited to be releasing a two part episode with my new dear friend Katia, who just recently had her free birth in the Dominican Republic about a month ago. Part one dives into the depressing birth culture of Dominican Republic and Katia's pretty wild first birth where she had to spend the majority of her labor driving six hours to reach home and had a traditional birth attendant waiting for her. Katia also shares her list of fearful possibilities that she had to come to terms with in order to free birth her second baby. Why don't we start with wherever you think that your journey begins?
Speaker 2
Well, Emily, first of all, I just wanna thank you so much for being such a bright light, for being a badass goddess, a feisty priestess. Your podcast has been so amazing. And I didn't know about it until it was very Lacey, our friend, our mutual friend. Lacey and I did a yoga teacher training in India together, several years ago. And we kept in touch. And I just love her so much. Where in India? In Rishikesh in the north. Mhmm. Yeah. It was it was an amazing experience, and she's such a special soul. But, you know, I when I learned that she was planning a free birth, I have to be honest, my reaction was like, oh. Yeah. Oh, wow. Really? Oh, it was like a sharp inhale. Mhmm. And I really had to sit with that for a while, but we we can chat about that a little bit later in the story.
Speaker 1
Isn't it crazy how quick how quick you can, like, turn around too?
Speaker 2
Because that
Speaker 1
was a pretty quick I mean, sure. Her baby is only, like, what, seven, eight months old or something.
Speaker 2
Fuck. Beautiful fuck. Yeah. Yeah. But Lacey was the reason I discovered your podcast, and I binged on every episode.
Speaker 1
That's awesome. And how long have you been in the Dominican Republic?
Speaker 2
Rob and I have lived here for six years. We came here from Canada, and we're wedding photographers here. So we have a pretty pretty neat life. We used to live on the north side of the island, in a beautiful town called Cabarete. It's a windsurfing capital of the Caribbean. And when I first got pregnant with Zion so this is he's two and a half now, so we can count backwards to however long ago that was. I knew a hundred percent that I didn't wanna be in the hospital. I that's just not even something that crossed my mind even for a second. But, yeah, we we start Rob and I started thinking of different options, and I heard through the grapevine that there was a Canadian midwife living living somewhere close by. And you know how it is, especially with a small town. You kind of ask around. And finally, I got a hold of this woman. And the only time I cried in my pregnancy was when she said yes. Aw. Taking me, taking me on as, as a client. So she's a super lovely woman who has a beautiful story. She's, she's fairly young, but she, Zion was her two thousand and eighth birth. Yeah. She used to run a birthing hospital in Afghanistan and in Haiti and other places. Just incredible woman. So, Robin, I felt super lucky. So we did all the prenatals with her and she was just super, you know, free and, well, treated us beautifully
Speaker 1
and And how does the licensing or legalities of, just quickly, of midwifery work in in Dominican Republic? Like, was she licensed?
Speaker 2
No. No. So she would be basically, just as a traditional birth attendant.
Speaker 1
Gotcha.
Speaker 2
And maybe I should spend a couple of minutes sharing what the birth culture or the lack thereof Yeah. Definitely. In Dominican Republic. Up until, I believe, last year, Brazil was the number one, I think, country for the highest number of cesarean births. Well, now Dominican Republic is at number one.
Speaker 1
Damn.
Speaker 2
So I I'm not sure exactly what the number is, but well over eighty five percent of births end up, with cesarean with with surgery. And the breastfeeding rate is under five percent.
Speaker 1
Nobody does it.
Speaker 2
Oh. Wow. I just need to take a breath, you know, because my blood boils every time, every time this comes up in conversation or Yeah.
Speaker 1
It's disappeared from so many countries and so many cultures.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, yeah, this is the place where we are.
Speaker 1
And you knew that when you got pregnant on the island.
Speaker 2
I I did. Yeah. I'm part of, a yoga community here, and I've also been leading, women's moon circles. So very much part of part of part of community and, of course, hearing hearing stories. So, yeah, going to the hospital was just not an option for us. However, Rob and I did go. You know, you're excited. You're not sure what to expect. So we went for a blood test to, to the local hospital and had a quick meeting with their main OB. And I won't go too much into the story because that one really makes my blood boil. I still imagine punching this doctor. Oh, no. But, yeah, we sat down, and he's like, yeah. Your blood work looks good. Everything looks good. He would not make eye contact with me at all. He just looked at Rob the entire time.
Speaker 1
Oh, nice. Love that.
Speaker 2
Yes. Love that. And, at that time, I think I was maybe eight or nine weeks only and didn't do very much research. I didn't know what what questions to ask, but one of the questions we asked was about their episiotomy rate, and he's like, oh, well, those that's had just has to be done. He even chuckled a little bit, like, why would you even ask? Yeah. You stupid girl. You know, every woman
Speaker 1
Why are why are you even talking
Speaker 2
is probably what he was thinking. Yes. But it's like, Oh girl, you know, your vagina's not snow. You need me to cut Yeah. Cut you open to get that baby out. Anyway, I left the meeting just shaking. And I was like, We're not, we're not coming back. Luckily, we didn't have to. But, the kind of stories, you hear of what goes on in hospitals here is just atrocious. There is so much obstetrical violence happening here, and there are no midwives. There are no doulas. Only in the last couple of years, we're seeing, you know, some, some doulas in the expat community or some interest, in the hospitals and the, in the capital in Santo Domingo, but very, very little. Anyway, we felt super, super lucky to have this, this midwife. And, what I wanna say about the experience of having her is well, I just, again, got super, super lucky. But I, from where I am now, having given birth, having had a free birth, Looking back, I'm amazed at how much control I surrendered just by feeling safe because I had a midwife. And she was a lovely lady, but I didn't know how the birth was gonna go. And I didn't really know what to ask, during our prenatal visits, you know. I didn't know past palpating the belly and talking about my fears. What else should I be doing, really? And so it's reflecting back. That's what's really interesting to me now is surrendering so much control. Just trusting, like, oh, well, she's gonna be there, so she'll take care of whatever happens. Mhmm. So I didn't really have to think about, well, what if what do we do if she's not there? That didn't that thought crossed my mind. What happens if if something happens and she's not around?
Speaker 1
You guys didn't talk about anything like that?
Speaker 2
No, isn't that so strange? Yeah, that's a trip. It's such a trip.
Speaker 1
Did you talk about what would happen in quote unquote emergency situations if she was there?
Speaker 2
Not really. Wow. Yeah. Imagine that. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Well, in some way, I kinda like it because it's like It's kinda
Speaker 2
nice that
Speaker 1
it wasn't super heady.
Speaker 2
We did have a plan b, which I tried not to think about. But Sure. There was a hospital close by and Yeah. Anyway anyway, but it is completely wild to me that not once did we have the conversation of, well, hey, what happens if you guys are six hours away and you go into labor and you're you're in an in the car in active labor for six hours before you get to me? That was a little bit of foreshadowing because that's what happened. Oh my god. I did not expect to go into labor at thirty seven weeks. We are wedding photographers. And super ironic, our last wedding of the season was June twentieth. After that, we were supposed to go home, and I was supposed to meditate and walk on a beach and journal and prepare for my birth. Oh, no. June twentieth ended up being Zann's birthday. Oh my gosh. So, we lived in Cavarece, which is this wonderful little town where the midwife lives as well. And our work took us all the way to Punta Cana, which is, where all the weddings take place. And I went into labor the night before our last wedding. I was doing some emails, and my water started releasing. So I was, like, basically thirty six and thirty six and six. Wow. And it was eleven o'clock at night. Rob was already in bed because we wanted to be fresh for the wedding the next day. And I was like, oh, shit. Am I pinged my pinged myself or what is this? So I remember I put a towel between my legs and I started googling what is the
Speaker 1
What's happening to me?
Speaker 2
What is the normal like, is thirty seven weeks too early? That was that's what I was googling. I didn't wanna wake up Rob yet because I was so in denial that anything could be happening. Yeah. So my water was leaking slowly. I woke Rob up. We called the midwife. This is about midnight. And, you know, she said, open a bottle of wine, drink a glass of wine, and drink a ton of water, and go to go back to sleep or try to sleep and see what happens in the morning.
Speaker 1
Sound advice?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. And I I spent some months being, you know, upset with her for not telling me to get the hell in the car and start driving.
Speaker 1
Oh, wait. Because I'm sorry. I think I missed that. So you you were not home?
Speaker 2
That's right. We were six hours away across the island.
Speaker 1
Gotcha. Okay.
Speaker 2
Get ready.
Speaker 1
Then maybe not sound advice. She knew you weren't home.
Speaker 2
She knew that. Yeah. And so
Speaker 1
That's yeah. That's a lot to bank on.
Speaker 2
Oh. Wow. So I really wish that we would have gotten in the car and started driving, but I was just so worried that my bride was gonna be mad at me. Right. You know? And, and that's what really drove me to be so much in denial of what was happening because I'm just so afraid that my bride is you know, you don't wanna disappear disappoint a bride ever. Yeah. So I downloaded the contraction app on my phone and had a glass of wine, drink a bunch of water. We turned off the lights. And so, of course, I didn't sleep at all. And I started having surges, contractions about ten minutes apart. And by the time it was six AM and the birds started tripping outside, I knew that this was not false labor. And Oh my god. I am not shooting a freaking wedding today. So I woke Rob up and I said, babe, we gotta go. You know, things are really happening. And You can't deny it. I but I was still in denial because can you imagine? You realize that you're, like, tolling labor weeks before you thought you would be, and you have a six hour drive across an island. And, like, Chris, the
Speaker 1
side detail, but what did you do with her wedding? Did you have a backup photographer?
Speaker 2
Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. For everyone listening, don't worry. The bride got taken care of beautifully. Wow. The wedding book and, you know, lots of
Speaker 1
Wow. Okay. So you're like, we we gotta go.
Speaker 2
So we piled yeah. We piled into the car and another little fun, fun twist. Our computer was stolen from from the car, which, like, never happens. We're in a super safe neighborhood. But the the window got busted behind the driver's seat. So the entire six hours or whatever. You know, we we taped it up with a garbage bag, and it was like
Speaker 1
Oh, I that just happened to me in San Francisco a couple of months ago. I know exactly what you're talking about, and you're in labor. So was was that how was that drive for you? Was it super agro, or were you just
Speaker 2
Oh my gosh. It was awful. It was awful. And I just kept thinking, you know, how ironic. I all I wanted was to be out of the hospital so that nobody confines me to a bed. Nobody straps me down.
Speaker 1
You're in a seat belt? I'm
Speaker 2
here right now. Yeah. Reclining, strapped in by a seat belt, you know, holding on for dear life. And so I had my earphones in listening to hypnobirthing meditation, and Rob was listening to, I think, metal or something, just hard knuckling it, trying to Yeah. Poor guy. Eat as yeah. As fast as he can. And I yeah. The hypnobirthing meditations didn't really didn't really work, but I'm sure they did they did their job to to some degree because I was focusing on my breath and it's really unfortunate because I couldn't let go. I couldn't, I couldn't really get into it. And all I imagined, I was dreaming of being on all fours and just being all primal and and finding finding my groove, finding my space. So I really felt cheated out of out of that and also cheated out of connecting with Rob because he was completely,
Speaker 1
you know,
Speaker 2
not a wavelength with me at all.
Speaker 1
And also, let me just let me just throw in there for anyone listening. If this ever happens to them or even just a drive at all and you wanna be in all fours, get into the back seat and, you know, hang over the edge or use that back seat for the all fours because that could be a a little hack. It's still not great, but at least you're not, like, doing that reclining.
Speaker 2
For sure. That's such great advice. I did not think of that. Totally. But I think part of partly too, I just wanted to press pause. I just was like, wait. This is so not how it's supposed to go. Oh my god. You know, I'm not in labor. No. I'm not in labor.
Speaker 1
Crazy.
Speaker 2
So luckily, our midwife was, on the way to our house. She was about twenty minutes away from our house, and she we picked her up on the highway. And, she got in the back seat, and I just started crying. And, you know, because she was there. And I was like, okay. Okay. This this can happen now. Again, I totally did just did not think of what would what would happen if it was just Rob and I. And I felt like I needed the midwife to be there, which I was upset at myself after that, that I hadn't prepared for another for another way for things to go. Anyway, she said, by the sounds that you're making, I bet you're around six centimeters or so. So by the time we got home, I I guess I was about six centimeters or something like that. And it was brutal because it was two o'clock in the afternoon, bright sun. I did not have the environment that I wanted at all. Like, we really wanted a cave, and it was, like, super bright. Nothing was ready. Rob started running around trying to get towels together. There was no time to fill up the pool. Oh. And it was too hot, too cold, and I really wanted to pull on something. I just had this animalistic desire to pull on something. And I would look around the room. Okay. I can't pull on the curtains because I'm gonna bring those down.
Speaker 1
What can I pull on?
Speaker 2
Oh, man. And, you know, then my, midwife's neck was she just wanted to sit in a corner and with her notepad anyway. And so I was pulling on the side of the on the edge of the sheets and, you know, just nothing was working. And I just couldn't get on top of the waves. Yeah. I had them crashing down on me. And I think because I spent so much time strapped in by a seat belt, I hadn't found any rituals that that Totally. Would work for me. I just felt like a caged animal, honestly. Yeah.
Speaker 1
You got, like, thrown into it.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And so it, took about four hours to meet our boy, and I didn't tear. He came well, he was born in the bedroom when he where he was conceived. Did you ever
Speaker 1
did you ever feel like you got on top of it, or was it just
Speaker 2
Not really. Not really. But I I think I do wanna share a little bit about the pushing stage. There was a moment when things shifted, and I became really lucid. And my midwife said, you know, I think that you're I think we're getting really close to meeting this baby. Reach down and and and feel for him. So I felt for him and here here comes
Speaker 1
The littlest.
Speaker 2
Lunch again. Hi, Phoenix. Hello, buddy.
Speaker 1
Oh, you want a booby?
Speaker 2
Sorry, love. It's okay. Just plugging in. Okay. Alright. There we go. We're good. I reached down to feel for his head, and that was such an amazing feeling, but I was exhausted. I was absolutely exhausted. And I remember falling on the bed and I I just said to the midwife and to Rob, please just leave me alone. I just need I just want a break. I just wanna sleep. And they both laughed like, come on. Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1
I'm sure you do.
Speaker 2
Honestly, I just wanted a break. And my midwife said, no. You are pushing this baby out. You really need to to to do this work. And now that I've listened to some brilliant lectures on a few podcasts, I know that that is an amazing window of sacred beautiful window of time when labor can shift dramatically and a woman could potentially actually nap for a few minutes.
Speaker 1
Not not just a few minutes. I've seen women sleep for an hour.
Speaker 2
Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. Incredible. And that's really important work that the baby does as well.
Speaker 1
Totally. Right? Well, not the thing. Like, I wonder what your midwife's thought was. Like, what's the danger of saying you know, maybe she was just trying to give you, like, a pep talk. Like, no. We're right here. Let's do it. But, yeah, maybe you absolutely could have slept.
Speaker 2
I don't know because she was really hands off, the entire time, but that's the time where she did not let me rest and I really wish that she would have. And now I wonder maybe, maybe that's the time that that Zion needed to turn, to shift. I don't know. So with Zion, Rob encapsulated the placenta. He dehydrated it actually himself, which was pretty cool. And I loved it. It I feel like it really helped a lot. We kept the placenta with the baby for about five hours or something like that, and it was a really gentle, really gentle transition. What I wasn't prepared for was the afterbirth pains. That's another thing that I feel nobody talks about. And as I held that in my, in my arms, I thought that it would be just this explosive oxytocin moment of us falling in love and unicorns and rainbows, and it was not like that. I, yeah, the contractions kept coming, and it, yeah, it was pretty, it was pretty uncomfortable. I didn't, I didn't realize that, so
Speaker 1
How long did they last?
Speaker 2
I would say pretty strongly for maybe forty five minutes or so, and then, well, for a couple couple days. Mhmm. And it was worse worse the second time. Yeah. The second time around. Mhmm. But just for any expectant mamas, especially first time mamas, just be okay if that doesn't happen. You'll you'll fall in love with your baby, but don't put a lot of expectations on that on that, on that first moment.
Speaker 1
So did you feel pretty distracted by the pain?
Speaker 2
Yeah, definitely. Mhmm. But overall, it was amazing. You know, I got to stay in my bed for actually, I didn't leave the bedroom for, like, ten days. Nice. Rob just kept bringing me delicious food. And, it was, it was, it was wonderful in that way. But because the baby came so early, I still had a lot of work to do. And so it was, it was pretty crazy. I had newborn placenta still attached. And with my free hand, I was like typing emails and editing photos for a decade.
Speaker 1
What? Placenta attached? That's hardcore.
Speaker 2
Pretty wild. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1
Well, and it you know, it does bring up kind of the larger conversation around early and late in all of these terms. It's like, really, he came on time, and our concept of on time needs to expand and grow and change. And
Speaker 2
Absolutely.
Speaker 1
You know, like, I think, okay, sure, if the baby comes at thirty two weeks, you can call it early, but at some point, it's like babies just come in the window of Yeah. Thirty six to forty four. They just do, you know, and to I think it's a very possibly, you know, too tall of an order to just say you should just be completely ready by thirty five weeks. But really Yeah. You should just be completely ready by thirty five weeks, thirty six weeks, because then we can I think if we feel more ready for the reality of how wide the spectrum is we could prepare our lives around it and welcome it a little more? But but you know like you I think your situation is such a good example of you have work, you know, and you're gonna work until you don't think you can anymore. But, unfortunately, that put you in a position that started off the labor pretty stressful and far away from your nest and really affected the whole labor, unfortunately.
Speaker 2
But, you
Speaker 1
know, like, he didn't come early.
Speaker 2
He can yeah. Exactly. He really didn't. What does
Speaker 1
that even mean he came early? He just came before you thought he would come. Absolutely. And and I'm not trying to pick on you. I just think it's such an interesting you know, because so many women fall to this, and it's such an interesting, like, way of framing it that we we have to move past. Mhmm. You know? So what if
Speaker 2
Amen, sister.
Speaker 1
You know? Like, what if you were ready or and felt like the baby could come any moment from thirty six weeks on, which is true. And so how how could that have felt different? And, you know, for anyone listening, I just encourage you to learn from from us, you know, in this way because this is this is not an uncommon story that babies come, quote, unquote, early and the parents feel really unprepared, and it it's stressful. It starts off the whole thing, I think emotionally quite quite taxing. So, yeah, I think we need
Speaker 2
a big
Speaker 1
big big reframe, but I feel you. That's that's crazy. It's crazy for it to happen before you're ready.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And especially with the first birth. Totally. Everyone says that, you know, women usually go over their estimated due date, whatever that means, which is a whole other can of worms. But you can imagine when I became pregnant with our second, anyone who asked me when my due date was, I just like wanted to hiss at them.
Speaker 1
You don't know anything. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And so ironic because Phoenix was born, a couple of days after his due date and we were expecting him weeks before he came.
Speaker 1
Of course. That's how it happens. I know. All all of
Speaker 2
this is learning there.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Exactly. It's just managing expectations and release, repeat, release, repeat. You know? It's all that that is the journey of of, I think, the parent. You know? Mhmm.
Speaker 2
Absolutely. So
Speaker 1
take me to Phoenix's birth and and anything beforehand. Like, at what point did you start to align with knowing you would do this with just you and Rob?
Speaker 2
It was a beautiful journey. And I have to thank Lacey, one of your guests on this podcast for that, and my dear friend. Because when she shared that they were gonna do the do it solo, Rob and I really had to watch our own reaction. And, yeah, we were we were worried. Of course, I didn't share that with her. And, Lacey, if you're listening, I love you. We felt that it was a little bit nuts because especially because it was their first birth. So when we realized we were pregnant, of course, we got in touch with our midwife, to see if she would support us again. And she was going to be in Canada at the time. So I was just kind of in denial about what my options would be. It was still early in the pregnancy and I thought, you know what, we're gonna figure it out. Not sure, not sure how, not sure what we're gonna do. And we learned of Lacey and Flynn's, plan. So that was just lingering in the back of my mind. I prepared very differently for this birth than for Zion's. With our first boy, I read so many books. I read everything I could get my hands on, Ina May, of course, and many others. I don't think podcasts were a thing at the time, and if they were, I hadn't discovered them. But with Zion, I really or sorry, with Phoenix, I really wanted something different. I didn't want to worry myself. In fact, I didn't wanna read any books. Mhmm. I just wanted to tune in and trust myself. I made a beautiful birth altar in our bedroom, and I wanted to connect with this baby in a way that I didn't have a chance with the first because I thought I would do that after all our weddings were done. So I spent a lot of time praying and meditating. And maybe to some people that would sound too woo woo, too hippie, but really, there's nothing hippie about connecting with your child. And in the western world, we are, conditioned so much to trust the world that is seen and not tune in to the unseen world. So to connect with our baby, we wanna hear the heartbeat through, you know, a doppler or, see a scan and see the baby's face or whatever, and connect with the baby this way. When in fact, I feel personally the best thing that you can do is place your hands on your belly and breathe and do that every damn day. Yeah. To to truly connect. And it's just started feeling right as time went on.
Speaker 1
Any any tips sorry to interrupt. Any tips, like, of anything specific? You know, I'm just I'm trying to think of anyone who's hearing this that's like, okay. But, like, what do I do? Like, how do I actually do that? What does that look like?
Speaker 2
Mhmm. Well, that's a good question. Well, place your hands on your belly and breathe and see what happens, or journal or take a walk and listen to music or dance. There's really no one way to do it, but the common denominator here is to trust. And are you going to live in trust, or are you going to live in fear? Are you going to breathe into trust or into doubting or fear? And there's just I I mean, it it's a journey from from fear to trust. You have to get through all your fears to get to trust, but it's not some sort of an abstract idea. We either trust in our bodies or we don't. Mhmm. And you have to sit there and do the work. You know? It's not enough to to just talk and think about your affairs in the prenatal visits, Whoever your provider is or whoever your support network is, whether it's a girlfriend or a mom or a doula or a midwife, you have to do the work yourself. No one's going to do it for you. Mhmm. And, a key, a key event also was I received a message from my midwife, and she said, I have a feeling that you guys wanna do it solo. It is okay for you not to invite me. I will I will not be, you know, upset. Or I don't remember exactly how she worded it. But
Speaker 1
But she was off she was off the table. Right?
Speaker 2
Yes. But, you know, we were talking about it and maybe she thought that we would, fly her in from Canada or Gotcha. Okay. But I just remember reading that message and feeling like every cell in my body is vibrating with a hell yes and a thank you. I'm not sure why I needed the permission, but it really made a difference at that moment to see her say to hear her say that. Mhmm. It was reaffirming and beautiful to be like, what, we can do this solo? Actually, yes, we absolutely can do this solo. And when I ran, ran this by Rob, he was on the same on the same page with me
Speaker 1
immediately. Well, Anne, you guys pretty much did it solo last time.
Speaker 2
That's right. Yeah. But it seems like a radical thought to me. Now, I mean, being in this, community, having heard so many stories and after I'd shared that we'd had a free birth on, on social media, on Instagram, I can't believe how many women said, me too. Me too.
Speaker 1
Right? I know. It's like a little secret society.
Speaker 2
I was thinking to myself, where have you women been? I I haven't even heard of this term, a free birth or unassisted birth. I do wanna say I don't like the term unassisted Yeah. Because we are assisted. Even if you're, accidentally end up having your baby by yourself in the bathroom, you are assisted. You are assisted by the spirit of every every woman, every mother who has who has done this before you. Well, in the it's
Speaker 1
it's also annoying because the whole term, it was a legal term for paperwork if a provider wasn't present. So it's not actually we're perpetuating it now socially inaccurately, you know? It doesn't matter that it's a legal term or not, really. Of course, we are assisted, and I think it causes a lot of confusion to call on us to call free birth unassisted birth because it implies to people who don't understand it that the woman is alone and that the woman is unsupported and all of this other weird stuff that Mhmm. You know, not I mean, of course, some women do choose to be alone, and that's perfectly fine and normal and and wonderful and doesn't mean that they're unsupported either. But I think it confuses a lot of people when people say unassisted because you're right.
Speaker 2
That's right.
Speaker 1
There is like what sister Morningstar said, you know, you have your millions of years of biology. You have your partner. You have possibly somebody else present. You have your baby. You have yourself. You know, there's there's so much happening. There's so much assistance.
Speaker 2
That's right. Absolutely. I'd love to walk through, a brief list of oh, I don't know if it's that brief, a list of, my fears because I think there's this misunderstanding or stigma with free free birthers that we don't have fear. I mean, we're fearless and irresponsible. So I do wanna talk about the fears that I had to face to be okay with my decision. Is that alright?
Speaker 1
Of course. Yeah. I mean, exactly. And I I I echo that all the time that just because we're free birthing, I think what that says is that you've chosen trust over fear, but that doesn't mean that trust that fear is not present. You know, fear is healthy and it's, you know, can help critical thought and, you know, all of this stuff. It's just that fear is not trumping and dictating the decision. You know, that quote, never make a decision out of fear. It's like such a good, such a good quote, and and people are so inundated with fear that to not make a decision about birth out of fear seems incredibly radical.
Speaker 2
Right. Radical. I love thinking about the word as going back to our roots.
Speaker 1
Totally.
Speaker 2
When you think of it that way, nothing really radical about it at all. Nope. Yeah. So my first fear, as I started journaling about the possibility of of free birth was tearing. And I thought, what am I gonna do if there's no midwife to stitch me up? So I started looking into it a little bit more to find out that according to according to research, if you look at women with first and second degree tears, at six week postpartum, there is no difference in how well they heal. And in fact, there's potentially more trauma if you do get stitches. So I had no idea. I thought that was that was amazing to learn. So if and if I did tear, I would be okay that I did not have to go to the hospital to get stitched up unless, of course, it was something that, intuitively I felt needed medical attention.
Speaker 1
Yeah. There's a big difference between a first degree, you know, and and a slight second degree and then, you know, a a real deep tear into the muscle. Mhmm.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
But it's confusing to people sorry. I I just wanna say to that. It's confusing to people who birth in the hospital and and with some regulated midwives because they suit your first degrees, you know, but you also have to consider that it is a very expensive procedure and, you know, they're they're trained to charge, you know, especially if you're at a hospital that's, you know, being charged per procedure versus a package. You know, and they're also dealing with residents and teaching and practicing and there is huge incentive to suture at any cost in a hospital setting, but that does not therefore equal that the suturing was necessary.
Speaker 2
Just wow. Wow is all I have to say to that. Yeah. Doesn't that just make you so mad?
Speaker 1
Oh, girl. The most awkward is being in the room, being like, you don't need to do that. You know? But, you know, oh, yes. Of course, it makes me so mad. Just our vaginas are are so used and abused and violated and mistreated and disrespected. And there is no there is no room in obstetrics and in this culture for the deep healing capacities of the vagina, you know, and the the power and the stretching and all of the stuff that it totally does that, you know, I don't need to prove to anybody. It just does it. You can just watch it. You know, it does all this beautiful stuff, but then, you know, we wouldn't need the men to save us.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Our vaginas are brilliant.
Speaker 1
They really are. I mean, just the tissue themselves, the elast elastic oh my god. How do I
Speaker 2
say that word? Elasticity. I can't say it.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thank you. And just the healing properties, it's like biting, you know, biting your, cheek, how quickly that heals. It's like basically the same tissue.
Speaker 2
We are meant to stretch and we're meant to tear.
Speaker 1
Right. You mean everything won't be ruined? Yeah. And then the husband stitch and, I mean, just so much just derogatory, just painful misogyny, you know, is our our vagina is, like, at the the the crux of it. It's just so it's so sad. So, anyway, so that's awesome that you found out this truth that Yeah.
Speaker 2
And so that fear just totally dropped off. And then a side note on that, I in in my research, I realized that, massaging the area also doesn't help, although it's nice for foreplay, but totally not necessary because our bodies are just meant to do what they do in the moment. We don't need to to practice for the marathon.
Speaker 1
Yep. Exactly. So just just to reiterate that. So perennial massage does not improve results. There's no evidence that it does. There's no evidence that it improves anything. So for anyone listening who thinks they need to get their perennial massage in with with their partner by themselves, you know, to stretch, it's it's like folklore just like how they used to tell women to rub, rough wash cloths on their nipples to toughen them up for breastfeeding. No. This is not anything that we need to do. We do not need to prepare in any way beyond perhaps nutrition, you know.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Well, and the the biggest one, is, of course, with the baby's first breath. And I think that, most people who are questioning this decision will go to that fear, maybe even, well, well ahead of tearing because the the baby's well-being is, of course, well, more important than maybe your perineum. And so, the question is, what happens if the baby needs suction, for example? And, I admit to completely being oblivious to what needs to happen because in our first birth, I was completely reliant on our midwife. I thought the baby's gonna come out and the baby the baby needs resuscitation of any kind. I trust that my midwife will know what to do. Mhmm. So when planning for a free birth, Rob and I had to very honestly look at at that fear and do our research. And what we found out, was shocking in the most in the most beautiful way. And I have your podcast to thank for that, and also the Indie Birth podcast, Taking Back Birth, as well as some lectures on the Birthful podcast, and I highly, highly recommend all three. But the baby's first breath in an undisturbed physiological birth is well, everything in our biology wants the baby to breathe, and the baby does not necessarily take a breath or start crying right away, and that is perfectly normal. Mhmm. If you think of it, of the of everything that needs to take place for the baby to start breathing, the baby's still connected to the umbilical cord, Organs in the body are expanding. So many changes are happening. Give the baby a minute. Just give it a minute. The baby doesn't need to be turned upside down and spanked and and suctioned immediately in most cases, in an overwhelming number of cases, because the baby just needs a moment, and it's okay for some babies do come out, and they're not, they're not as pink as maybe we expect them to be, and that is okay too. There was one
Speaker 1
I don't I don't think people understand that the baby is still being provided for through the placenta. Exactly. Until that's until that system is complete. So it it understandably, you know, we have this whole culture of nobody knows anything. Nobody knows anything about births and babies and what's normal and physiological birth and doctors don't know anything about physiological birth, you know, so we've got a whole confusion around what's normal. And so when we're trying to have these normal experiences, you know, yeah, it can look pretty freaky when a baby comes out, a little on the the floppy side, you know. Almost always that baby is going to, you know, get what it needs from the placenta and pink up and come around and there's a a multi minute transition period that happens. But if you don't know that's normal, like you're saying, that can seem so scary.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. And the fear only just makes it worse. And as we're waiting for this beautiful brand new baby to take its first breath, we are not breathing either.
Speaker 1
Exactly.
Speaker 2
We're not helping at all. And I absolutely loved your episode with Sister Morningstar. Mhmm. For anyone who hasn't heard that one, please, please go. That's a two part episode. It's just brilliant how she how she talked about the baby's first breath and I think the five steps that mothers Mhmm. Intuitively, instinctively, make to help the baby breathe. It's just so beautiful. It made me cry. I think it was, like, thirty eight weeks or something at that time. It was so beautiful. Mhmm. So, that fear, we took care of, I felt. The next one, of course, was hemorrhage. And, again, in undisturbed birth, free of coaching and interventions, it is extremely rare for a woman to hemorrhage. And so what I knew, I wanted to do was when the baby would be born, I wanted to rub the oxytocin rich blood on my belly, which I did. I knew that we would, we would nurse, and in the undisturbed, quiet, beautiful space, cave of my bedroom, I just trusted that that we would be that we had trusted that we would be okay. But we were ready in case something in case something would happen. I also wanna say that it is normal for women to lose more than two cups of blood because we're all made differently, and the fear around around losing blood can can contribute. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Well and and everyone it's less about the amount of blood, and it's more about how that person responds to the loss of blood because some women will pass out, you know, and and will, respond in a in a postpartum hemorrhage way with a lot less blood, and other women can lose a lot more blood and and be fine and recoup. So it's even to yeah. To put that whole, like, two cups thing, you know, on anybody, it it's you can't routine this. This is such an individualized you know, you can't standardize it standardize a hemorrhage. You know, it's it's how women respond to it. So, yeah, it is it is pretty rare. And even when they do happen, you know, I've interviewed some women who have hemorrhaged in a unhindered birth, and, and they, you know, they recovered. And they either they passed out and they came back too, or, I've only I've only interviewed one woman so far who, called nine eleven, you know, after a hemorrhage, but I think the larger thing that we're touching on is this really comes down to a different set of risk assessments, you know, and some women would look at that list of fears and say, you know, or not even fears, list of possibilities, you know, they are list of possibilities, and say, I'm willing to accept, you know what happens in a hospital to prevent or treat those potentialities immediately whereas other people make a different risk assessment to say you know I'm gonna hedge my bets on trusting what normal physiological birth provides for me and my baby, and I'm not willing to put myself, in a abusive environment, you know, to to potentially see what's gonna happen and see if this is gonna work or not, thus hindering the whole process of it working itself anyway.
Speaker 2
Right. It was also illuminating to learn that as, the uterus contracts, post birth, it, that process can get hindered if there's a lot of post birth interventions. So, gloved hands, a lot of noise, you know, people taking the baby away or putting a hat on the baby or just just all of that can actually prevent the uterus from contracting properly, and that can contribute to hemorrhage.
Speaker 1
Mhmm. Totally. And that's it's so interesting because so many women, you know, will say, even I saw that on your social media, but it happens everywhere of, oh, I hemorrhaged after my birth in the hospital, so I could never have a home birth. And it's like, well, yeah. But we need to dissect that storyline a little bit because
Speaker 2
What happened there?
Speaker 1
Yeah. You might have hemorrhaged because you were had an induction and you were on artificial oxytocin for three days and your uterus was exhausted and then your baby got pulled out and blah blah blah blah blah blah. Of course, you hemorrhaged. You know? And would that happen at home? Extremely unlikely. It's a total totally different set of circumstances. But but, you know, people don't apply the critical eye to it that they need to. You know, birth is not the same across the board. And the way your birth goes down at a hospital is super different hormonally than it goes down at home, and you you will be hormonally more protected at home.
Speaker 2
That's right. Yeah. Another question that people had that, well, I, was happy to answer was, what about the cord? They're like, well, are you gonna clamp it? Like, who's gonna cut it? And that's just not even wasn't even a concern.
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's like the smallest thing.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. But because we see it in movies. Right? It's like clamp, cut the you know, the dad cuts the cord and
Speaker 1
And it really is this dissociation of, like, if there's not a doctor to do that, what would that even look like? It just I can't even I don't even have a reference point for what that would look like because everything in my conditioning says that it happens this one way. And if we change the environment, I don't even know. I don't even have the creative thought or education or or anything to even know what it would be otherwise.
Speaker 2
That's right.
Speaker 1
Which, of course, you could just boil some scissors or
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Or Kimmy, it's, like, so simple.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Or or burn it
Speaker 1
or Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Or just wait for it to fall off. You know? That's an option too. Totally. Yeah. Also, I well, this was a valid question for me. Would I know when to push? And Mhmm. That's what a lot of women would ask as well because first of all, we're so used to the idea of being coached by someone, by a birth professional. So how will I know what to do? How will I know when to push my baby out? And for me, it was especially important to trust because I I had to trust that this time I would know. I would know when to push my baby out. And, with Phoenix's birth, it was absolutely brilliant. I got the urge to push, and it was amazing. The most amazing thing in the world.
Speaker 1
So did Rob share any of these fears as well? How was his process? You know, was it pre was it pretty simple for him, or did he have a lot to work out?
Speaker 2
Yeah. He's one amazing dude.
Speaker 1
Sounds like it.
Speaker 2
He was on board with everything, and, he listened to a lot of the podcasts with me Nice. Which made it which made it easier. And we would have these great discussions and he would get fired up about a lot of these, a lot of these topics in the same way. So it was great. Yeah. I will say I made a big poster and wrote a bunch of beautiful affirmations to have in our space and didn't look up at them even once. But they were brilliant for Rob, and he said that at some point throughout my labor, he would glance up at this poster, and it really helped him. In particular, I think he said, I trust my body. I trust my baby, was the most powerful one for him because he held the space for me so beautifully, but fear some fears did creep in, and that reminder to trust, to trust the process was really powerful for him.
Speaker 1
Sure.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. Yeah. I'm just really lucky to to have him. He was great. But I think I think that sums up maybe the most, the most prominent of fears.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think the rest of it is just kind of sitting in the unknown. You know? Like, I don't have any fear about my upcoming birth, but, yeah, I definitely have some obvious unknowns. Is it gonna be okay? Is it gonna be safe? You know, these are things that I'm, like we said earlier, hedging the bets that everything will be all good. I don't particularly think I'd be any safer in a hospital. I don't I don't buy into all of that. So I think it kind of what I feel like we're getting to is after we address all of these, you know, lists of reasonable things that we have to learn about and think on beyond that, then we're just sitting in the unknown and sitting in the mystery of it, and that is beyond what a lot of people are interested in or willing to do, and then some people are.
Speaker 2
Yeah. You you got it.
Speaker 1
And we're gonna leave it there for this week. Tune in next week to hear Katya's incredible free birth story of baby Phoenix, and she will share her valuable list of postpartum advice. Have a great week.
