Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldea.
Speaker 1
Exciting news listeners. The Free Birth Society apparel store has opened. Head on over to free birth society dot com and check out the adorable onesies and toddler shirts, adult tank tops, hoodies, and more, all celebrating messages of free birth. Again, that's w w w dot free birth society dot com. This week, I'm joined by Kristen from Orange County, California who shares her intimate story of self discovery through pregnancy, birth, and postpartum. I particularly love Kristen's story because she chose to work with postpartum period is a true journey of the underworld.
Speaker 2
I always knew I wanted a home birth, like, for several years and then when I became pregnant I was like alright I want a home birth like I'm a home you know I kind of fell into that category of like I'm a home birther so this is what I need to do like these are the steps I need to take to make that happen and what I realized like slowly over the course of my pregnancy is like okay, well, I'm kind of just like going almost with the flow of what I expect, but what do I actually want? Like, what is this actually about? And and that's when it started to get really interesting, right? Because then it's like, okay, well, if I could drop all the labels of trying to figure out if I wanna fit into this category or this category, if I want to birth unassisted or with a midwife or like, you know, I'm a home birther or I'm someone birthing unassisted, like, if I let go of all of that, like, all of that mental story around, what decisions I'm making, what feels right in my body. And I have to thank my friend and birth support person, I mean she's a doula but she's not a certified doula and she helped me a lot, like processing that and figuring, like teasing out what was true for me, even if it was different than what I had expected previously, or what I kind of thought I wanted. Mhmm.
Speaker 1
And
Speaker 2
that's kind of how I ended up being like, okay, well I want access to a midwife and
Speaker 1
I
Speaker 2
really personally didn't care if that was a certified midwife or a traditional birth attendant, but in my particular area, like I just had trouble finding a traditional birth attendant. So that wasn't really an option. So I essentially, I interviewed, I think, four or five midwives. There was one that I really wanted to go with, who is like also a friend of mine, but she's she's still working on getting her license and she's working under another midwife and I was just like, that was too much for me to take on. So I kind of ended up going with, the midwife that I did end up hiring who was, you know, I was super comfortable with and she she has a great reputation and I know a lot of people have birthed with her and, she has a really, really low transfer rate and, yeah, it just felt like the right decision for this birth. So that's kind of how how it started started to unfold.
Speaker 1
So talk to me a little bit about that process of teasing out and not necessarily falling into any specific category. Talk to me a little bit about that, you know, because you and I connected pretty close to before you gave birth.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
And I got a little bit of insight into it. But
Speaker 2
Yeah. So well, I'll talk a little bit just about the, like, the when I got pregnant and and kind of how that all that whole prenatal period kind of kind of went. So when I did get pregnant, I would I knew that, like, I wasn't gonna do any of the typical medical exams in the first trimester. Like, I didn't do I didn't do anything in the first trimester. I didn't seek any care at all, besides just like resting more, taking care of myself, I was really tired. So I kind of had to prioritize just sleeping as much as possible and just chain, you know, kept my nutrition up as much as I could. And then I started looking for a midwife towards the end of my first trimester and I just thought, you know, I want a home birth, like this is what you do, you look for a midwife, you interview people and decide on one. So I did, I interviewed several and I decided on one and then I kinda just started in that path, like, with the the I think it's once a month visits in the beginning, and then that's kind of just what I did. And my midwife knew that, like, I really didn't want any medical testing. I think I did one set of labs when I was pregnant and that's more just for myself. Like I'm just interested in doing labs every six months or so.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And it doesn't hurt anybody.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I did that. And, but, yeah, I just kinda went along, and I and then it was really
Speaker 1
Did you decline the routine tests, like the GBS and the glucose and all of those things?
Speaker 2
I did. I also did the GBS test again because, like, I did it knowing that I wasn't gonna do anything about it, but I just, like, was curious, for my own health and, like, for my own gut health almost. It's like, do I have this? Like, I can test it right now. Why not?
Speaker 1
And then work on it.
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. I was negative, so it didn't really matter, but, I did that. I did a, anatomy scan at twenty weeks and fortunately my midwife works with someone who is just like really quick in and out and it was just like a maybe five minute scan. And I don't know if I would do that again. It was kind of like I could have gone either way and we just my partner and I decided that we wanted to do it. So we did.
Speaker 1
Was it required for her backup like some midwives?
Speaker 2
It was not required she said I could do it or not do it.
Speaker 1
Okay.
Speaker 2
And nothing was required. She always like I always had the option to decline anything. Technology to conceive, and their doctor will not do the procedure if they've been to that country in the past six months. Wow. Yeah, so it's just like
Speaker 1
There's lots of scary things in the jungles you guys.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I know. So Costa Rica was not the first. Yeah, so I told you know when I told my midwife, yeah like hey we're going to Costa Rica, like how do you feel about that? Oh, yeah. And she was like, oh, yeah, that's fine. Like, have fun. You'll be fine. You know? Like, there was no concern about Zika and anything like that that happened.
Speaker 1
You got to experience what a non fear based provider can feel like.
Speaker 2
Exactly.
Speaker 1
And that is such a big deal.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I never like, there was never a sense of fear about anything with her, which I realize now talking to other women and listening to your podcast is, like, it's not that common unfortunately.
Speaker 1
Even with midwives.
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's kinda what I mean.
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's I mean, because right of course OBs are but yeah. It's crazy.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm not thinking in terms of obese. I'm really just talking about midwives in that regard. Mhmm. So during that time, like, towards the end of my second trimester, I mean, you kind of start to realize, like, I'm going to birth this baby. Like, it's going to happen.
Speaker 1
Oh my god. It's coming out of
Speaker 2
me. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that is gonna be a reality, and it's gonna happen, like, soon ish, you know? So, I just started thinking more about the birth and, like, what I wanted that to look like and, you know, just intuitively, like, checking in
Speaker 1
with the baby often. And and at that point
Speaker 2
is kind of when I, often. And at that point is kind of when I realized, like, I'm not gonna figure this out in my mind. You know, like, I can't think my way out of this. What are
Speaker 1
you referring to? Figure what out?
Speaker 2
Like, I can't, so, like, making all the decisions, like, like, if there was a fear coming up, like, okay, I'm gonna research so I know everything about this topic and then I'll feel better about it. And yes, like you yes, acquiring knowledge and and giving your brain some information is good, but in the end, I felt like, actually, you know, I've spent the last five years gathering five plus years gathering information about birth. Now is the time where I actually need to let go of all that information Mhmm. In some regards, right? Because, you know, I've worked as a birth doula, like, I've worked with women trying to conceive, postpartum, I've kinda done a little bit of everything, and when you're I just felt like when I was in it, I needed to stop reading the books, like stop trying to figure out what this birth was gonna be. Getting quiet, being more meditative, like, being in nature a lot more, being in my body a lot more. So, you know, practicing yoga, dancing, just whatever felt good in that moment. So, I feel like that's when I started to realize, like, okay, what do I really want this to be? What does this baby want this birth to be? Like, what is this really all about? And I remember just at some point like coming to the place where it's like, okay, I want an undisturbed and autonomous birth. Like, that's really what resonated with me. Those two words I remember really stood out. So then, kind of to figure out, like, what that meant for me, I I had a a session with my doula who is also, like, a somatic experiencing practitioner and That's a
Speaker 1
good combo.
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. She is she is pretty amazing. I remember I had a session with her and we were gonna do some pelvic floor work because she's also a bodyworker and we were just talking about the birth and, like, what I was kind of thinking about the birth and so we started talking about more specifics around how I saw it going and I was kind of like, you know I actually don't know if I really want the midwife to come at all. Like I just don't know if that's gonna even be necessary.
Speaker 1
Yeah, how could you know right?
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah. Exactly. It's like so, and at that time, you know, I was talking to my midwife about some of the stuff too, and like looking at some of her paperwork just around like what's kind of to be expected, and and like I know some of the laws around like, you know, doing fetal monitoring and,
Speaker 1
Well, that's what I was wondering. I should have said this earlier, but what was because you're already kind of in the world, you've already been to births, you already you know, you have your head in the game because of your experience probably more than most new moms. What was your understanding of being with a regulated midwife and the kind of compromise or expectation around that? You know, were you as tuned in? I mean, did you know about, like, the thirty seven to forty two and and the different rules within, you know, breach and twins and the different rules within labor that would cause her to, you know, have to transfer you or, you know, the long list of things.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I did know that going into it. I totally knew that going into it, but it wasn't, like, until the end of my second trimester where I was, like, okay, this could actually affect me and what am I gonna do about it. Totally. So that's that's the place where I was, like, teasing out like, okay, actually, I'm totally fine if this midwife says I can't attend because of this reason or I recommend that you go to the hospital for such and such reason or I'm gonna transfer your care because of this. That's where I finally came to the place where I was like, if that happens then I'm birthing unassisted. And with my doula support person because she's not she's not certified and she was aware of all of this going on and she was like, no matter what I'll be there so.
Speaker 1
So did you kind of come up with your partner and your doula what those what those specific things are? Like, obviously, there's some reasons you would probably transfer, of course, if it was, like, medically independent. You know? But did you come up with that kind of list as a group, or was it just a little more fluid than that?
Speaker 2
It was a more it was definitely more fluid, and I kinda did some of that internally myself. Like, okay. You know, if my baby came at thirty six weeks or thirty six and some days or you know what would I be comfortable with and again even in those situations it's like how can I predict what's happening? Yeah. How can I predict now into the future what my future self is gonna feel is appropriate? It's not possible.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
So that's what I mean like you can't you can't really thank yourself out of these situations and.
Speaker 1
Well that's where real real self trust comes in.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly. And it was just a process of surrender and process of, like, can I trust myself enough to make a decision in that particular moment?
Speaker 1
Above anybody else making the decision for you. Yeah. And that's that's, you know, that's where I think a lot of this comes back to in these conversations is there's nothing wrong. If you want somebody else to make that decision for you, okay. That's fine. But own
Speaker 2
that. Yeah.
Speaker 1
You know? And and and licensed midwifery and, you know, OBs are set up to make decisions for you. You know? Even though that's not technically how it's supposed to go and that's not actually informed consent and all of this stuff, you know, because they are in a position where they have to look out for themselves. And it ultimately, maybe not your midwife, but but most commonly is, even with licensed midwifery, you know, across the country, is fairly routine care. You know, know, these are the things we do at these times, and these are the times that we transfer. And these you know, it's fairly it's regulated. You know, it's the essence of regulation. It really is getting into if you are a pregnant person that is interested in making their own decisions. And your story is such a good example of how you can do that even within a system, if you are really ready to, like you said, tease it out and figure out, I will make my own decisions and take everyone else's into consideration. But at the end of the day, it's you who's gonna decide how you feel if you start leaking at thirty six weeks. It's not an automatic transfer.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly. And I think that has to come for me personally, that had to come from a really embodied place and that's where you know, I come back to like, I feel like the prenatal care that mattered the most or made the most difference in my birthing process and experience and even into postpartum is just how how much time I spent kind of tending to, the physical body and just, like, doing practices that kept me in tune internally, right?
Speaker 1
So Any specifics you can
Speaker 2
I mean give us?
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I'm looking for some. Yeah.
Speaker 2
I I'm a long time yogini, so yoga was something that I practiced pretty much every day of my pregnancy, and I'm not
Speaker 1
talking like a long extended practice, sometimes ten minutes, sometimes thirty, sometimes longer.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I'm extended practice, sometimes ten minutes, sometimes thirty, sometimes longer, but nothing extensive, kind of just whatever felt good in that moment, that day. And meditation practice, and, oh, something else that I did that I think, like, helped a lot, and oh, something else that I did that I think, like, helped a lot, I was at the beginning of my pregnancy, I listened to, like, hypnobirthing tracts affirmations, and after a while, I was, like, I actually don't like some of these affirmations at all. Yeah. Like, these are starting to really piss me off.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Because well, I have some gripes. I have some gripes with the hypnobirthing. I feel like the hypnobirthing model is essentially trying to teach women how to behave in the hospital system.
Speaker 2
Exactly. Yeah. And it's like, wait a second.
Speaker 1
It's like, no. I'm not gonna be calm. I'm gonna be a wild fucking animal. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Exactly. I was like, wait a second. Like, I actually don't, like, I'm not trying to have a calm birth. Like, that's not my intention Right. Really at all. Like, if that happens, great. But, like, that's not really even a desire that I have.
Speaker 1
And that is not very common.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, I got rid of that, and I I just, like, sat down, got quiet, and I wrote affirmations for myself
Speaker 1
Nice.
Speaker 2
And and then I recorded them,
Speaker 1
and
Speaker 2
then I listened to them every day.
Speaker 1
That's cool.
Speaker 2
And it worked really well. I mean, for me, it was really powerful. So that was one. And then just being in nature, connecting to the Earth, like, putting your feet on the ground, putting your whole body on the Earth, and getting out of linear thought patterns, like, allowing myself to daydream more or stare at the sky or, you know, go on a long walk. All of these things helped a lot. Traveling for me helped a lot, like, getting out of my normal environment and and Costa Rica is where my husband and I met so that was like a really special trip to take and just be like totally free for a few weeks time. So I feel like all of those things really allowed me to go into the birthing space in a really grounded and intentional way and also in a way that that I felt cur like, courageous enough that if I would have had to make a decision against my midwives suggestion, then then it would have been okay to do that.
Speaker 1
You know? Well, and that that's an autonomous birth.
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 1
You know? And I think a lot of people get confused that free birth or autonomous birth means you're alone and that you're not supported. Right.
Speaker 2
And that's not the case.
Speaker 1
Of course not. Absolutely not. You know, it can and I love your story because yours was not only with a midwife, but a licensed midwife, and you still experienced and chose, and she's awesome too. So she was able to meet you there Yeah. In that space of you are having a very autonomous, you're the captain experience, even with someone who could potentially make a suggestion against you or, you know, bring a concern to the table or whatever Yeah. Which I guess anybody on on the team could. It's just that that that sense of authority that comes with hiring a midwife, I think, can be really intimidating for a lot of people. Yeah. And it and it implies submission, you know, for a lot of people. That's kind of the setup. And so, yeah I think the word courageous is just perfect because it doesn't have to be that way at all.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So all this kind of unfolded and I knew like okay, these are kind of the like, if I went post date, I would definitely not transfer if, you know. So I kind of came to this internally with myself. I talked to my partner about it, a lot and, like, did a lot of processing with him. I'm just I'm really fortunate to have a super supportive partner and I mean, I don't even know if I wanna say fortunate. I, like, that's just the way.
Speaker 1
You would not have it any other way.
Speaker 2
I wouldn't Yeah. Exactly. To be with someone who would not support, like, not be a autonomy.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Exactly. You were fortunate enough to meet him, and he was available, but you would probably choose being single if there was no other option. Yeah. That's why.
Speaker 2
So, but anyway, in in all aspects, I mean, he was fantastic at the birth and everything. So, we talked about it, and at that point I was kind of in a place of like, what do I tell my midwife? What do I tell this person who I trust and I like and, like, we have this good relationship going? And, I basically came to the place where I was like, I kind of am the type of person where I'm, you know, I always wanna tell the truth. Like, I always wanna be upfront with people. I always want people to know everything that's going on, in an intimate relationship such as this, like I'm inviting someone to come to my birth, but I decided not to tell
Speaker 1
her. Really? I decided I decided to tell her,
Speaker 2
what I told her was, I want sole responsibility for my birth. I basically told her, like, I didn't say you're off the hook, but that's kind of what I implied is, like, I want sole responsibility. So she kinda had some questions about that and, like, had some questions about specifics, like, did I want vaginal exam and, like, Doppler. Doppler. Yeah. And that sort of thing. And I kind of said, like, I maybe want those options, but, like, most likely, no.
Speaker 1
You're like, bring your bag. I'll let you know. Yeah. Like, she's like, okay. So,
Speaker 2
when I come for the birth, then, you know, if you don't want Doppler, then you just decline and, like, I won't ask you again, essentially, unless you ask me, is what she said.
Speaker 1
So how how does that, I guess you'll get to the story and it doesn't sound like she was there that long, but how would that play out in terms of her, you might not have this answer, but in terms of her licensing, isn't there requirements around, how often to chart fetal monitoring?
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think from a licensing standpoint, what she has to record, and this is just kind of coming from my knowledge of, like, medical world in general because I'm a licensed acupuncturist, so I have some idea of, like, scope of practice and all of that. I think she just has to record like patient denied this procedure.
Speaker 1
Right. Okay.
Speaker 2
And, you know, patient I offered a vaginal exam, patient denied.
Speaker 1
And did she offer you the fetoscope at all or? Well, we
Speaker 2
used the fetoscope during my prenatal visits. Cool. Yeah. So we used it then, and then the Doppler was kind of only Mhmm. Would have been used at the birth, but we ended up not using it.
Speaker 1
So the conversation went well. Yeah. So she was like, okay. Great. You know? You know? And and this is for anyone listening. You know? This is such an interesting piece here that doesn't really get talked about that just because you're with a licensed midwife and they are required by their licensing to at least try to transfer you to obstetrical care, that you don't have to do that. Just like with everything, you can decline and say no thank you, and you can hear that as a suggestion. So
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1
Important to remember.
Speaker 2
Exactly.
Speaker 1
Okay. So then you're gearing up for the birth.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I'm getting ready for the birth and, yeah. I was just I'll go ahead and kind of start talking more about the birth itself because I really feel like I kind of faded into labor if that makes sense. What do you mean? I mean, it's always like even my midwife after this was all said like after the baby was born was like when did your labor start? And I was like, I don't know. That's cool. I really don't know. Like, yeah. So I was, like, maybe thirty seven ish weeks, I kinda started just feeling, like, more dreamy, more, like, less in my mind. I don't know. It was just more ethereal even. Just kind of just, like, outside of normal day to day life, and I would just, you know, be outside a lot more, and I wasn't working anymore. So I had a lot more free time, and, I wasn't moving as quickly anymore. You know? So all those types of things, I was just kind of taking care of myself, resting a lot, and getting ready for baby to arrive. And I started just occasionally, I would just feel like waves that were like more than a Braxton Hicks type of tightening or a practice type of tightening contraction, and I felt those, like, throughout my pregnancy. That was really common for me, and it it just I think it has to do with, like, my body type and, I was just always aware of those, but it was like more than that, you know, it was like, oh, okay, like this Like waking up. Yeah. Yeah. Like, something's definitely shifting and, that would just happen, like, randomly during the day and then it would totally go away and I mean then it kind of just started happening more frequently and,
Speaker 1
and then there was a baby
Speaker 2
yeah so then yeah that started happening more frequently and I was at that time, like, getting regular acupuncture and getting chiropractic care every week. And, I worked with, red raspberry leaf throughout my pregnancy. That was, like, a super potent herbal ally for me.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Can you speak to that? Because I actually don't know a lot about it and how to use it or, like Yeah. And I know it's a tea, but I just my friend from Canada, she was actually on one of these episodes, Rachel, just sent me a big bag of dried red raspberry leaf that she grew on her farm. So now I have this big bag of it. So maybe you could speak to it because I know it's a big, like you said, an ally to pregnancy.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, and there's a lot of misinformation about it online, honestly. It's like, oh, it induces labor, like, start drinking it at thirty six week. It's like, no, that's not how No. Herbal medicine works, like, this plant does not induce labor.
Speaker 1
It's apatocin. Yeah.
Speaker 2
You know, so it's a powerful uterine tonic and, it's got a lot it's like full of trace minerals, right, that are easily absorbed by the body. So, that's kind of its its powerhouse technique or its offering to us and I started and there's some controversy around like if it's safe to take during first trimester or not. I feel like that's something like you have to kind of decide on personally and if there's like a history of miscarriage maybe you would on the side of caution and not take it. If you haven't used this plant before then maybe you would decide to not take it. I had worked with this plant a lot before my pregnancy and so it felt fine for me to take it in my first trimester. So, I started just drinking it as a hot infusion during my first trimester to replace, because I like totally lost my taste for green tea and I was a green tea drinker. So, I used it to replace that and during my first trimester and then in second trimester when I was like more active and just feeling like warmer overall you know pregnancy can make you feel quite warm I started doing cold infusions. So, I
Speaker 1
just So, what's an infusion? How do you do that?
Speaker 2
So, an infusion it's just like like what people think of as a tea, right? So, with a hot infusion I would just like take you know a small handful and seep it for five to ten minutes and then drink it like you would a tea.
Speaker 1
Okay, so it's like a tea that's kind of bulked up?
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. Okay. And then for the for the cold infusions I would just take a big like wide mouth mason jar put a handful like a good good handful in and put just room temperature water in the jar and leave the herb in overnight. Okay. You just let
Speaker 1
it on the counter? Or On the counter.
Speaker 2
You leave it out overnight.
Speaker 1
And then strain
Speaker 2
it. Strain and drink it. And you can keep the strained herb and use it again.
Speaker 1
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2
The second time you use it, you add hot water to the jar instead of
Speaker 1
To get more out of it. And then are you it's a little bitter, right?
Speaker 2
Yeah. It I mean, I I love the way it tastes. Oh, really? For some people think it's bitter. I I mean, it tastes like it tastes to me similar to black tea. Okay.
Speaker 1
There's no caffeine in it though?
Speaker 2
No. Yeah. No. There's no caffeine.
Speaker 1
Cool. I'm gonna make one today.
Speaker 2
Yeah. You should. I mean, I worked with this plant a lot.
Speaker 1
So, did you drink it every day?
Speaker 2
Pretty much every day either just red raspberry leaf or I would add nettles
Speaker 1
Mhmm. To
Speaker 2
it as well.
Speaker 1
And you always did a dried herb versus like the tea bags that you can buy?
Speaker 2
Yes. I always did the dried. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Which I still do postpartum.
Speaker 1
With that same plant?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Cool okay awesome thank you. We're working with that yeah so I had been doing all these things you know leading up to the birth and things kinda, yeah, started happening every time I got acupuncture. I was not, like, doing, you know, a typical kind of inducing labor type of acupuncture treatment. You know, I was just seeing a friend of mine and, who's another acupuncturist and getting treatment for my overall system and for the birth and all of that so every time I would get treatment I would notice like I would have some more intense waves that same day or later that night, and that went on, you know, for several weeks, really. And then it was in my thirty ninth week that for a few nights in a row for a couple of hours I would like wake up with these sensations of like menstrual cramping right and it was never really that intense but it was like enough for me to recognize enough to wake me up and enough for me to be like oh is this happening today I don't know and what it was surprising like I I was surprised at how relaxed I was during that whole process I was just like whatever. Like, it's gonna happen at some point. You know? Well, it speaks
Speaker 1
it speaks to you being ready and having done the work. You know?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that yeah. And then, like I said, my thirty nine week, thirty ninth week, it was coming a little more frequently, and then I one morning, I just did not feel well. I was just, like, so tired. I hadn't slept because I'd had all these waves throughout the night, and I was, like, I just like got up super early because I couldn't get comfortable and then I was just like laying laying in bed and you know not feeling like eating and I was like really emotional that day And I lost some of my mucus plug, and I was, like, maybe it's happening now, but then, like, it died off and several and then a few more days passed, and nothing happened. So annoying. I know. And I was just, like, okay. Whatever. And I really And that's
Speaker 1
why you can't answer the question of when it started because really there is no it started when you conceived.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1
The whole it started when you had your first period. The whole thing is so cyclical and yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah, there's no way to know. So, yeah, a few more days went by and those days were so, like, I loved that time, that time of being, like, already a little bit in that labor land type of mental state where it was just, like, I mean I can remember it's like colors looked more vibrant like I was you know smells were like really intense and I would just like go to the park and lay on the ground for like two hours and and yeah I was just like so yeah exactly. That's awesome. Exactly. So that went on and then it was like a Friday morning I woke up and I was like well I'm still pregnant and you know so I just like went about my morning and
Speaker 1
And what gestation are you at now?
Speaker 2
I was thirty nine weeks and six six days and I had kind of told myself the day before I had the day before I had gone to an acupuncture appointment and I was just so uncomfortable in the car on the way home I was like that's it like I'm not leaving the house and besides like walking somewhere until the baby comes out and so yeah the day after is when the baby did come out so yeah it was Friday morning and it was pretty normal morning I don't really remember what I did or what happened my husband was home because he typically works from home on Fridays And we I was, like, just feeling tired, and we decided to watch a movie. And I was feeling some some consistent waves, but I, you know, I was just kinda like, oh, we'll see. We'll see what happens. Like, it probably die off again. I felt like, intuitively, I felt like the baby's probably coming this weekend, you know, so I felt like maybe over the next two or three days, but then it kind of picked up and it was like definitely not going away. I still felt like it was super manageable. I was still, you know, eating, drinking, but I remember at some point and this is maybe around noon on Friday, I don't I'm not really good with, like, the timing of everything, but, I was like, I can't watch this movie anymore like I need to do something else and a few more hours went by and I was just like either in the bed laying down with my husband and or on the floor next to the bed like on hands and knees and at this point you know I was pretty vocal and I remember I was just using you know eye contact with my partner to get me through and but I felt like it was super manageable and I was like this could go on for who knows how long so I kind of let my my doula know what was going on and I said I might need you later tonight and then I had a friend of mine who was gonna also come to the birth like a very very close friend and she was gonna stay with me for the first few days postpartum to take care of me and the baby and everything, and just help out in general. So I let her know because she had to drive kind of farther, so I was like, why don't you just go ahead and come over and like you can always just hang out or like if it dies off like you can go home or whatever. So she started to come over around two and my doula and I were like just texting a little bit and she's like okay yeah I'll probably come tonight then like that sounds fine and I had not let let my midwife know what was going on yet just because I thought like I I don't need anything right now like everything's fine and this went on and I remember and at some point I was like this is actually really fucking intense right now. It just like ramped up really quick and and I was laying in the bed with my partner and I like I hit that point where I was like oh my god like this could go on for a long time and I don't know if I can do it And
Speaker 1
Although the irony is usually when you Yeah. When you're that intense, you're probably not gonna go on that long. Yeah.
Speaker 2
In my in my doula, you know, birth support brain, I was like, oh, this means, you know, this could mean that you're in transition. You're, like, you're getting really close. And then I was like, you know, in my labor Yeah. Whatever, I was like, no, it's, you know, you've got along you can do this for so much longer. You're good. And, I couldn't walk at this point, like, I couldn't stand. Oh, jeez. Physically stand up, so I was like feeling some pressure and I was like, that's interesting, you know, like feeling rectal pressure essentially. And so I was like, I'm gonna go to the bathroom and just like see what's happening. So I sat down and I was like, you know, trying to go to the bathroom and I, you know you push a little bit and like my body responded by pushing a lot and I was like oh
Speaker 1
and your doula is not there yet?
Speaker 2
No it's just my husband and I.
Speaker 1
Oh your girlfriend hadn't made it either? No. Okay. So what time is it now?
Speaker 2
I don't know.
Speaker 1
Is it is it dark? Oh, it's still afternoon. Okay. Oh, that's quick.
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's four maybe. And so I was like, I'm just gonna check myself. I had, you know, I'm just gonna, like, see what I feel. See if I can feel anything, like, as awkward as it is and as uncomfortable as that feels like right now. So I did it I just you know put a couple fingers inside and like maybe an inch inside I could feel the bag of water
Speaker 1
like my
Speaker 2
friend I was like like, I came out. I told my husband. I was like, the baby's coming out, like, now.
Speaker 1
Woah. That's so fast.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So then
Speaker 1
because when did they start? When did you turn the movie off? Like noon? Like noon.
Speaker 2
Wow. Yeah. So then, by that time, like, shortly after that my friend did arrive and that was like a godsend because I really needed my husband's like support and, eye gazing was like the thing
Speaker 1
for
Speaker 2
me like that was the thing that helped and so he was with me and then she kind of helped like I did want to get in the water so she helped set up fill the tub and that sort of thing and I I remember I was just like I just got in the tub when there was like only two inches of water in it and which was good timing because my water broke like five minutes after I got into the tub And at that point, I was just pushing spontaneously. And, and I was it was really interesting because I didn't feel, like, discomfort anymore. I just felt intensity, like intensity of the uterus contracting and, like, my body pushing a child out, right?
Speaker 1
And there's gotta be some relief knowing where you're at, and that you're at the end.
Speaker 2
Yeah so I was like oh my gosh like this is happening and I think that there's relief in being fully dilated there's like physical relief and like oh my gosh all that opening that had to happen is like done like that's open now and I remember at some point my husband was like do you want me to like should I call the midwife and my intuitive hit was just like yes so he did and I didn't really think I kinda thought, like, she probably will just make it after the baby arrives at that point. I didn't really know, like, what was gonna happen with that, but, yeah, I was just pushing, And
Speaker 1
what about the the doula? Did she
Speaker 2
She was also she was on her way too, and they both arrived around the same time, actually. Mhmm. They arrived around six PM, and my son was born at, like, six twenty seven.
Speaker 1
That is a really fast labor. Wow.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I was So I was raspberry leaf girl.
Speaker 1
I'm gonna go make that right now.
Speaker 2
I would say I was pushing for, like, forty five minutes to an hour. Awesome. Not long.
Speaker 1
So you started spontaneously pushing with pretty much the bag of waters opening?
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, I mean, I was pushing maybe for one or two contractions, like, before the the water's released, and then, they released in the tub, and it was clear. So I was like, okay, you know, I don't have to, you know because it's yeah it's interesting because you're like really out of it but you're not right so the way the way hormones work during labor
Speaker 1
is like you can be really attentive
Speaker 2
to what you need to be attentive to right you can totally know what's happening with baby and body without taking
Speaker 1
Totally.
Speaker 2
Other things into considerations.
Speaker 1
It's kinda painted, obviously, in media and stuff so inaccurately that you just, like, lose your brain and go crazy. And, actually, women are quite perceptive and quite insightful and and very capable of saying yes or no, you know, if if they need to.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So, so, yeah, my my the midwife and my doula arrived around the same time, and I had been pushing for a little bit at that point. And, I mean, I was near, I would say near Crowning when they arrived, and
Speaker 1
I
Speaker 2
was in the tub. My partner was outside of the tub. My doula was kind of, like, right behind my partner, and my midwife came in and she was just, you know, really quiet, super respectful. She knew, like, what I wanted, so she sat kind of at this table across the room and just, like, observed. And, she asked me once like if I wanted to listen to fetal heart tones and I just said I actually don't think I responded but I like just kind of was like I don't know somehow I communicated that that was not happening and I just kind of like I don't know I just you know I just did it and I would say like okay like every once in a while I would say like okay yeah I feel that it's really burning right now and like, the baby said it was gonna come out. And then when the baby said it was, I was like, okay. The head's been born. And then my husband got in the water with me. And then, with the next contraction, you know, the rest of the body came out. And and I brought him up to my chest. And and yeah she my midwife was like taking some photos for us which is something that I had like expressed that I wanted and at that point I didn't notice, but my midwife noticed that the cord had had broke, like, broken most likely, like, as he was being born or as I brought him up.
Speaker 1
Oh.
Speaker 2
I'm not sure. Obviously, that's really rare. And, I mean, it could have gone so differently, but she noticed and clamped it right away. And I and I didn't notice right away. I'm sure I would have given like
Speaker 1
Clamped, sorry, clamped it on the baby's end or on
Speaker 2
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because essentially the baby was losing blood, right? So, that happened, and looking back on it, I'm like, and I watched there was like a birth video, so I could watch the I watched the birth happen, and I was like, that, you know, could have been a real fear inducing thing, right?
Speaker 1
Like well and that's why she was there
Speaker 2
yeah seeing your baby lose blood and like seeing that happen but what's so great about her particular care and like is that you know it was just like a thing that happened yeah and it got handled and there was like nothing to be afraid of right and the baby transitioned well and stayed with me the whole time and yeah it's like wow this is what it can actually be like.
Speaker 1
This is what good support can look like. Yeah. So Right. Because if she hadn't been there, did you have a clamp?
Speaker 2
I didn't have a clamp because we were gonna burn the cord. Right. Yeah so I feel like that's probably why she was there. Totally. And that's yeah and so then yeah she after that I got out of the tub dragged off got into bed you know did the whole skin to skin latching on the placenta came maybe fifteen twenty minutes after and I just kind of yeah I just kind of squatted on the bed and and pushed the placenta out and I had a friend picking it up to encapsulate it for me and I like wanted to see it and you know
Speaker 1
yeah they're beautiful
Speaker 2
yeah I think I took a piece of it and like just to put in my cheek right away although I didn't really have a lot of bleeding so or you know I had a normal amount of bleeding Yeah
Speaker 1
but you're an acupuncturist you have to
Speaker 2
do it. Yeah but I was like I have to try it you know. That's funny.
Speaker 1
So did you put it in your mouth in the side? Yeah. I
Speaker 2
just put it like that's what my midwife recommended. I was I was thinking of eating it. Mhmm. But she's like, no. Just put it inside your mouth. So I I just put it in in my cheek. I think either Like
Speaker 1
the size of a quarter? Yeah. Just a little trunk.
Speaker 2
Yeah, just a small piece. Ugh. It does I mean it the consistency is odd and I
Speaker 1
it's like fish that's what I think of.
Speaker 2
Yeah, but you know it was fine. Yeah. And yeah my doula made food for me and and yeah that was kind of that was that they left a few hours later I'd say
Speaker 1
so did he latch while they were all still there?
Speaker 2
Yeah, he did. He did. At that point, I didn't know that he had a tongue tie or anything.
Speaker 1
Did does doesn't she look at the newborn exam?
Speaker 2
She did, but again, like, in all her wisdom, she's like, I I typically don't say anything unless because it could be fine. So, with the newborn exam, like, we we delayed that quite a bit and then I think my husband was, like, really involved in
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
In that, you know, like, in doing all those things. So
Speaker 1
Okay. So let's pivot to your postpartum because you've had quite the quite the journey.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, it's been a lot of ups and downs. Overall, like, my physical recovery was was, pretty good, and I had set a lot of things up before to support that. Like, I had made a bun I had made a lot of food and brats, and I had, like, asked people to bring food, and I had, I knew I was gonna belly bind and I got a vaginal steam chair that I had set up and,
Speaker 1
How often did you steam?
Speaker 2
So, I didn't start steaming until the bleeding stopped which I don't really remember, but I think it was maybe like two weeks or so. And so then I started steaming, I mean a good at first I was steaming like almost every day if I could. For how long?
Speaker 1
For
Speaker 2
I tried to do about thirty days in a row.
Speaker 1
Like, thirty days straight. How long per session?
Speaker 2
Oh, per session? I mean, baby pending, it was, like, ten of ten to thirty minutes.
Speaker 1
And I forgot to ask you, with your birth, did your premium stay intact?
Speaker 2
No. I had a small a small tear, pretty pretty clean, like, edges tear.
Speaker 1
And how was the healing of that? Do you think the steaming helped?
Speaker 2
I think it helped a lot like because I did the sitz baths as well and I always felt better after the steaming than I did after the bath so I kind of dropped the baths and did the steaming instead. So yeah that helped a lot and then I was taking her like I was taking herbal medicine, that I'd gotten before and I just kind of gotten some basic stuff from a Chinese herbal medicine perspective and so that all went pretty well. The challenge was really with breastfeeding and with, my son my son's tongue and lip tie and, like, navigating that process in such a vulnerable time and, like, in going from, you know, no medical intervention at all to, like, considering doing this medical procedure and then like doing this medical procedure and I see I did it ended up doing it twice.
Speaker 1
What is with lip ties it's like trending?
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a thing like it's
Speaker 1
But it wasn't like
Speaker 2
No. Ten years ago? No. I think and I talked to my doula like a lot about this recently when I was having a really hard time and it's I mean it's it's like a thing it's bigger than it's bigger than what we can do in our personal lives to like avoid certain situations, right? So, I think as you and I were speaking to earlier, it's in a way we're losing our ability to just have normal biological function as humanity, especially in Western centric cultures, right? We are so Right, like, are we
Speaker 1
seeing lip ties happen in Africa and India? I don't know.
Speaker 2
Well, so here's here's here's kinda what I think about. Like, yeah, maybe that's happening there. And most likely in those more indigenous community centered village type places, if that is a concern, it's like there's a woman who, like, had that happen to her and, like, knows how to feed that baby, right? Like, oh, I did this and this or I took this medicine or I like went and saw this particular you know shaman or practitioner whatever it was or I had my baby fed by this other woman or like I did this you know so like we're that's just not how it is here like that's not how it is in western centric culture where we value the individual more than the collective we we value our privacy and like our you know our autonomy in the sense of like everyone's kind of doing their own thing, like pursuing their own goal. So I think it's probably happening in other places, but I think it's being handled differently, and it's not really,
Speaker 1
Well, like how like how morning sickness isn't in every culture.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
And that's, like, there's definitely some interesting thoughts there. So he
Speaker 2
had a lip tie which And a tongue tie.
Speaker 1
And a tongue tie which of course affected his latch and breastfeeding.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean he's always been able to latch on. It was just that first week of breastfeeding. I mean, I was in excruciating pain. I had bleeding nipples, cracks. Oh. I mean, I was, like, having to cope more with that than, like, I had to cope during labor, obviously. Right? Because that's, like, that's, like, a physiological pain signal to your brain that's saying, like, something's not right. Totally different.
Speaker 1
And the emotional side of it and that this baby has to eat.
Speaker 2
Exactly. Exactly. All of it.
Speaker 1
It's so stressful.
Speaker 2
So, yeah just navigating all that was has been really challenging. So, we did the tongue tie revision twice, but the lip tie was fine after the first revision like that's been fine since then, But, yeah, the tongue tie is is more complicated and more complex and I feel like part of it like it's I mean I think maybe in fifty years we know why it's happening more, right? Like if you look back in fifty years ago and they're like, oh yeah, that particular chemical was causing birth defects in babies and now we don't use it anymore or something like that. Like, there's got to be some environmental toxin or I don't I mean, I don't know. Something in the food source.
Speaker 1
Right. Because the whole theory that it's the m what is it? MTHR? Yeah. The MTHFR. FR, gene. I mean, do you have that?
Speaker 2
Well, I don't know if I have that. I've never tested myself with but I know that I, you know, even before I was pregnant and during my pregnancy, I did not eat a lot of foods that are fortified with folic acid. And before I was pregnant I was taking methylated folate so even if I did have that genetic mutation like I was already taking precautions against it And I continued to take methylated folate during my pregnancy too.
Speaker 1
It's just so common it's I mean I feel like I hear about it every day.
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's like I mean the bigger question is like that we're not really asking because we're we're asking the questions, like, how do we fix it? Do just cut it, just cut it, cut it out. Right. You know, take it out. But what we really need to be asking is, like, why is this happening?
Speaker 1
Of course. Yeah. It's our whole our whole situate our whole system with the western world of why, you know, for for why we have so many alcoholics, we put up AA on every corner, you know, but no one's trying to prevent alcoholism. It's like maybe you've heard that. One of my favorite little, like, I don't know what they're called, fables or something that I read when I was in India was, all these cows were going up to a bridge and jumping off the bridge to their death in this little village in India. And so everyone in the village is trying to put trampolines down, and they're trying to figure out how to re you know, what's the word? Resuscitate the cows. And
Speaker 2
Yeah. They're all like, why
Speaker 1
are these cows jumping? Why are these cows jumping? And nobody's going up to the bridge to find out why they're jumping. You know? It's all like, what can we do to fix it? And yeah. I love that analogy because it's what we do to everything.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly. We're not
Speaker 1
trying to prevent cancer. We're trying to treat cancer.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So I think that I mean and I just had to, had to be with that and had to be with the fact that, like, it's so hard, it's so hard for me, you know, I'm, and so also just hard to be a breastfeeding woman, and I just didn't even that didn't register for me before having a child is like that breastfeeding is still not the norm in our country. It's really not and that it just blows my mind every time I think about it I'm just like that's so crazy that's so wild that like we are human animals and we're like not feeding our young in a biologic in the way that our biology is set up for. Yeah, and
Speaker 1
we're like giving them cow's milk.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that and that's not to say, like, I after I'm, like, so humble in my process in in this whole thing. And, like, if you're giving your child formula and, like, that's
Speaker 1
Of course.
Speaker 2
For you,
Speaker 1
like, but but the the industry of it that intentionally replaced breastfeeding is what I'm referring to.
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. Not not the like
Speaker 1
choice to do that. That's yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's really, yeah. Yeah, that's where I'm at too. So, yeah, it's just honestly, I, you know, I see postpartum, and I've talked to women about postpartum, just as this, it is like a dark goddess journey, like it is a it is an underworld process. Oh. Right. It is a journey into the underworld. It isn't a journey into the aspects of yourself that you, like, totally thought you worked out or the wounded child of you that you thought like I got this you know like I'm the the nurturing adult now and like I can't I can do this and it's like no I'm not yeah it's just like you've got yeah and you it's it's this really alchemical process of like what do I need to attend to in this moment and what part of myself needs like needs like some cultivation that I can make the best decision for my child, for myself. And and, yeah, it's just been really intense. And
Speaker 1
Well, like you said, that we are losing these biological functions as a society and yet still trying you know, a large portion of us are still trying to maintain it, but living in this completely separated from nature world and then dealing with the depression and and severity of that pain that we also disconnected from these biological functions and that, you know I I mean, I'm do people who live in communities and villages have breastfeeding problems?
Speaker 2
I've I mean, I've started to read more about it just because of this whole process and I've read a couple interesting articles about, like, actually women in these, more village and indigenous type of cultures, they have a lot of breastfeeding problems. They have all the same breastfeeding problems that we have here, but they handle it completely differently. They expect to have problems. Right.
Speaker 1
They
Speaker 2
expect to have
Speaker 1
it all together and be back to work
Speaker 2
at four weeks. Exactly. They expect to have problems and they know that they're gonna have help. They, like, know that, like, yeah, if you're gonna breastfeed, you're probably gonna have trouble with the baby latching on at some point, and then you're gonna, like, ask some other woman what she did, or you're gonna, like, go ask your mom Crazy idea. Or ask your aunt or something. You know? So it's like I know that they
Speaker 1
in in indigenous cultures, you see a lot less stillbirth and a lot less Yeah. Loss in general. So I wasn't sure about breastfeeding.
Speaker 2
So, I mean, I think you see similar issues, maybe not tongue and lip tie. I don't know. This is kind of like all a new more new thing that's happening. But, yeah, the just the support systems that are in place are different. And I have to say something about the lactation consultant model, and there are a lot of great lactation consultants out there, and they can be really helpful, and there's some limitations in what they can do, and they're also operating often under a medical model. Yeah. Absolutely. Whether it's you know Wade feeds which is kind of medical and the pumping this whole pumping industry is like it's not really a solution for feeding at the breast but I feel like we kind of take it that it is like, oh, well, you're breastfeeding, so just pump. Mhmm. Well, it's like, well, that's not like, yeah, that's great. Like, I can pump milk out of my body and then bottle feed it to my child. That's better than nothing. And like that's not feeding at the breast. Mhmm. Like there's a difference and I feel like people don't recognize that there's a difference, there's not a lot of research about the differences in whether it's like the physiological benefit now or in the future for, you know, jaw development and bonding, like, psycho emotional development. Like, there's so many layers of it. You cannot you can't even research that stuff. Yeah. It is a very,
Speaker 1
very quick replacement. And as a as a birth keeper who has had many women choose to work with LCs, I've seen them do more harm than good. I've seen them Yeah. You know, leave the mother way more confused and with all this conflicting information. And that's not necessarily their fault. It's because they're getting information at the hospital. They're getting information from their LC, their midwife. You know? I mean, it just it's it it it can get very heady when at the end of the day, some of the stuff isn't at all.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I definitely feel like I got some bad advice, really well intentioned. Right? Of course. Like, super well intentioned and coming from place of actually a lot of experience, but it just some of it wasn't helpful. Some of it, I think, led to me developing mastitis and a breast abscess.
Speaker 1
Oh, ouch.
Speaker 2
And, you know, it's like, okay. At this point, so I'm not seeing any lactation consultants anymore. I'm just kind of dropping, you know, I take all the advice into consideration, and I'm, like, trying to find a middle ground of what's actually gonna work in my everyday life. Right, in in a way that I can like maintain my breastfeeding relationship with my son, be sure he has enough to to eat and like not be spending my entire day doing that.
Speaker 1
Mhmm. So what does that look like right now?
Speaker 2
I mean, right now is, like, in this past week. I mean, it's always changing, but, I'm pumping more than I would like to. So I'm pumping at least three times a day sometimes more.
Speaker 1
Because he's not getting that He's just
Speaker 2
not enough? Yeah. He's just not that efficient at, like he was more like right after the tongue ties it seemed to be going great but then like it kind of we kind of slowly regress and it's just such a it's so dynamic right it's so so dynamic it's changing all the time and so that's what I'm doing right now and I'm also working again two days a week so I'm pumping for that reason too. Sure. So yeah just embracing that pumping is going to be part of my reality even though like I didn't I knew I was gonna pump for work purposes, but I didn't expect to be pumping, like
Speaker 1
With him right there next to you.
Speaker 2
Yeah. With, like, okay. I'm gonna pump and then feed you this milk. Like, what?
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So that's kind of what we're doing right
Speaker 1
now. Well, and it's interesting, right? Because you're doing everything right. I mean, and you're producing milk.
Speaker 2
It's Yeah.
Speaker 1
Kind of it's kind of whatever he's going through.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean Right? And I think yeah. I think there's there's there's something to be said or something that I will discover. I'm not sure. I'm kind of, like, in the process with this all right now, around, you know, what is what's what's our relationship, like, between him and I, and what's our previous, like, what are we coming into this lifetime with, and, like, you know, what does that look like going forward? So, yeah, that's all there and present too.
Speaker 1
So what does your support system look like
Speaker 2
with this?
Speaker 1
Yeah. And and postpartum, just navigating the I mean, you know, this is such a common story and so hard, and it can be so isolating and so self deprecating and
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
And just painful. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1
Even though it's so common, which, yeah, if we were living in some village and there was, like, circles to talk about this, like, have you gone to breastfeeding
Speaker 2
support groups or I actually have have not. I've intended to, but I've never made it. But what I so in the beginning I'll kind of just like talk a little bit about, all the postpartum support I had because I did have some things in place so I had a postpartum doula coming about twice a week and someone I know and like I'm friends with and so that was really helpful. And I like I said I prepared all the food and I wasn't expecting to need as much lactation support as I needed
Speaker 1
but
Speaker 2
I like knew people that I was gonna reach out to if that came up. So, when it did happen I had someone come over and, you know, that's when I kind of realized like, okay, I really need to consider doing something about this whole tongue tie thing. And then, I met with that person once or twice and then got the revision and I thought, okay, things are going better seemingly. And then it kind of four weeks later, it kinda started regressing and so I had a different lactation consultant come over and also I mean it wasn't that helpful in the end but I did end up going back to see the pediatric dentist that we had seen before and like discussing it with him and then doing a second revision to see if we could get like a little more a little more mobility in the tongue which we did and at first it was going great and then like the slow regression again. And I've like the support I've gotten around the tongue tie that's been the most useful is just like talking to other women who have been through it. Right? Ultimately, that's, like, what's needed.
Speaker 1
That's kinda what I meant. Like, did you Yeah.
Speaker 2
Do you
Speaker 1
have, like, a woman's circle that you can just, like, ugly cry to and be messy with and
Speaker 2
Yeah. I definitely have that. I definitely have that in my life, and I definitely have been reaching out to other women in particular who are, like, going through this right now, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
And it's interesting because it's, like, so different for everyone. Like, some are you know on donor milk, some are like oh no it worked great for us and it's like getting better every day and yeah so it's like all over the place really. Yeah. Wow. But yeah I've had a lot of I've I've had a lot of support and I have like a strong group of women in my life who aren't necessarily like having children right now, some of them have children some don't, but that's probably the place where I've gone to be like woah like this this shit is really hard and and they also like have that wider vision with me of we're, like, us as women going through this and whether it's in birth or postpartum or, like, having these experiences where the biology isn't really working out or, you know, we're seeing the consequences of our actions for the past several generations
Speaker 1
and
Speaker 2
that's that's causing a lot of collective grief. Mhmm. Right? So then you kind of go through your own personal grief process and then you have to tease out like when am I grieving for myself and when am I grieving for all of us. Yeah. Right?
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yep. I feel you, sister. So I really do. And so, how do you feel four months out of the birth? Do you feel just so proud of yourself that you handled it like such a boss?
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I like, in those beginning weeks, I feel like I I mean, I really was in kind of that birth high for several for several weeks after the birth and then with the revisions and the breastfeeding challenges and, like, the day to day, I would kind of wasn't thinking about it as much and now I kind of feel like I'm in the place of, like, okay I've like integrated this experience into my consciousness and like into my embodied presence and yeah it feels like it feels like in some ways yeah of course it went like that of course of course you know I can birth a baby like
Speaker 1
Well, right. But in light of your breastfeeding difficulties, I think it's super important to really own those victories and own, like, where it was Yeah. Quote, unquote easy and where it was this natural biological process, you know, because you gotta hang on to those when you're
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly. And that's you're exactly right because I feel like I've gathered so much strength throughout this process because of my birth.
Speaker 1
Mhmm, exactly.
Speaker 2
Right? I
Speaker 1
feel like Because not of course it went that way because it could have easily not.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I know. That's where it's Just like frustrating tricky in my mind is because sometimes I feel like, oh, of course it went like that and sometimes I'm like, no, of course it went like that because there was some foresight and, like, some effort. Yeah, I mean, it was such an ecstatic experience, really. And that's, I think, my biggest intention was, like, that it would just be really an ecstatic experience. And by that, I don't mean, like I mean, it was super pleasurable in moments, but that's not really, like, what I mean by that. I just mean, like, a fully vibrant, alive, -like
Speaker 1
-Yeah. -sensation. Spiritually ecstatic.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's how it was and and now I'm on, you know, and now and and I've been studying tantra for a long time and with the understanding of tantra it's like you go in one direction, you know, you go in that full place of ecstasy and you're also going to experience the complete opposite which is agony, right? So, I feel like in those moments when things are so challenging with breastfeeding and especially in, like, the early months when it was just so hard and I was grieving so much, that's the agony. Right? And, actually, both of those can be ecstatic.
Speaker 1
Totally. Yeah. That's beautiful. Well and and and sometimes it happens in the complete reverse for women, you know, where they'll have the, like, destroyed birth plan and the c section and and all this grieving and then have this fairly easy postpartum that, you know, breastfeeding is just a simple thing. Yeah. And and it kinda goes in this other other swing. But I really like what you said about the the postpartum being this, like, underworld because that is such a Yeah. A a wise way to think of it. And I think for women who haven't experienced postpartum yet, you know, to allow to create some spaciousness there that it it it can be that, and it may be that for for you. Well, I
Speaker 2
think if if it's not, then there will be.
Speaker 1
Right. It's not
Speaker 2
I don't mean to sound like, you know, like Well,
Speaker 1
I think it can happen in birth too. Exactly and that's for sure.
Speaker 2
It's like some part of your mothering
Speaker 1
Yeah we're not getting out of it.
Speaker 2
You just don't get out of it a lot. Yeah. Like part of yourself does not come out and that's okay like you're not supposed to like you are supposed to die Mhmm. That moment. In some moment, I can't tell you when it's gonna be.
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's different for everyone.
Speaker 2
It's different for everyone and that is, you know, like I said, that is the the journey to the underworld or like the journey of embracing the dark goddess, which is, like, a a part of our cultural narrative that doesn't really exist anymore.
Speaker 1
But it so does. Yeah. Because no one's talking about it.
Speaker 2
No one's it's been exiled. Right? So it's all of us have to do that work to to bring her back.
Speaker 1
Mhmm. Yeah. Let let her just be here because it's you know, I think there's so much power in naming things and, yeah, allowing allowing space for it. And we know in this, you know, working in the birth world how dark postpartum can be and feel. And, yes, it's temporary for most people, but it's it's still a powerful, powerful space to embrace. And,
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean You gotta have it all. Yeah. There's a lot I could say about, like, postpartum depression and and all of those things. But
Speaker 1
that was kind of my last question was did you struggle with postpartum depression at all like that with with a tricky road and things not going?
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean the way I kind of like to look at it is like and I've told this to people I've worked with in the past who are, like, having certain specific challenges. It's like, yeah, I mean, if you weren't depressed, that would be kind of awkward. Like, that wouldn't be normal, Right? Like, if you responded to a certain situation, you know?
Speaker 1
There's a difference between sad and grieving and, like, that hopelessness stuck space
Speaker 2
of Yeah.
Speaker 1
True depression.
Speaker 2
Yes. I totally and that's what I was gonna get to so there's a difference between like being in a clinical depression right where there's clearly like you need some type of help whether that's you know therapy or even using drugs or whatever is going to help you in that moment but then there's the feeling of like yeah I feel really sad and depressed about this thing but it like doesn't consume you to the point of Danger. Yeah of a clinical depression. Yeah. Yeah, I don't feel like I was Depressed in the sense of like I had clinical postpartum depression, but yeah, I mean hell. Yeah, I felt depressed at times like of course.
Speaker 1
I know. But it's so crazy how many like, there's no space to say that. I mean, there is. We're creating that space. But, you know, how many women feel like they can't they are so shut down by the healthy baby, you know, comment that there's no Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. There's no it's like this weird guilt trip to admit that something is painful because you're I don't even know what the narrative would be because you're supposed to be so grateful. I don't
Speaker 2
know. Yeah. I've been super like blessed to have so I'm gonna mention my birth doula again because she's so great and she's writing or she's actually already written and it's being published in a couple of months or it's coming out in a couple of months. It's a book on the fourth trimester on the postpartum period and she was just like such a great support around helping me figure out what I needed to set up and like she's just also totally rewriting the narrative around postpartum care and like what it can look like. So, I don't know maybe I can give it to you like for the show notes or something because it's such a great resource for women.
Speaker 1
Is is the book out Or will it be
Speaker 2
It's not out yet, but it will be soon. You can preorder it now.
Speaker 1
What's the name of it?
Speaker 2
It's called The Fourth Trimester, And the author? Kimberly Anne Johnson.
Speaker 1
Okay. Cool.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And she has yeah. She's also done a lot of podcasts on postpartum care and, like, talking about all the stuff we're bringing to the table right now.
Speaker 1
Maybe I'll I can have her on here too, and we can
Speaker 2
Yeah. Talk about it. Yeah. She would be a great resource. Awesome. So Cool.
Speaker 1
Well, thank you for your time.
Speaker 2
It was Yeah. I
Speaker 1
really I really appreciate the polarity, you know, of of the easy parts of your story and the hard parts of your story and that it all, you know, just creates this ecstatic, spiritual, powerful experience that I I do think you were prepared for.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
You know? Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me on and all the work you're doing. It's, it's so great just to be getting this all these, like, varied stories out.
Speaker 1
It's I've been very, like, pleasantly surprised by, yeah, just how how much variance there there is and just excited to keep celebrating it.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And for your process to unfold too. I'm here anytime.
Speaker 1
Thank you. I know. I gotta start preparing for the underworld. Alright, girlfriend. Thank you so much. That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love. That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
