Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldea.
Speaker 1
Today on the show, we have Eileen from North Carolina with quite the story to share. From losing a premature baby to hospital interventions as a teenager, Aileen went on to experience both a traumatic abortion and then an abusive hospital birth with her first live child. Finally, with just her husband outside
Speaker 2
Altogether, I've been pregnant seven times. My first pregnancy, I was sixteen, was going through this whole, that thing when you're like a teenager and you're like I wanna be a mom and like, really bad, and I wasn't careful. I wasn't being very careful. I was just kind of, like, hearing about, like, you know, natural family planning type of stuff, but I didn't I really didn't know anything about it. And so I got pregnant and, suffice to say, my parents were not thrilled. My dad is a marine, so you can kind of roll with that, very OCD controlling type personality. And, I, knew right away that I already wanted to have a natural birth. I wanted to have a home birth. My grandma had my dad in the hospital and then she had my two aunts at home. And my dad was seventy one, born in North Dakota. You know, they had the big drape where she couldn't even see between her legs. They shaved her, forced her to have an enema, like, took the baby away right away. You know, my aunt came out, all cord all wrapped around her, and the midwife starts freaking out and talking about, you know, transferring. And my grandma's like, it's fine, unwraps the cord and like blows on her face and she cries, like, you know. So I, I grew up with knowing all of that and my grandma being, you know, really into breastfeeding. She breastfed for basically the twelve years that she was a little lady leader. All three kids until they were like four. And so at sixteen, I was like, yeah, you know, this is this is totally normal. This is, you know, this is what I want. And, I started trying to find a midwife. I found one in Newport, but she was busy around my due date. And she was like, I had a home birth at sixteen. You can do it. Like, super supportive. And then twenty nine weeks rolled around and I went into preterm labor. Had no idea. The people at the, doctor's office and at the hospital, they're like, oh, you're just dehydrated, maybe have a UTI, you know, take some Tylenol, drink some water, go in a bath, and I almost delivered him at home. The, the amniotic sack came out. I was like, like, I was having all back labor, and my mom's like, well, you have a doctor's appointment today anyway. We'll get you checked out. And so I went to go use the bathroom and it, like, descended into my hand. Woah. It was just like, I was holding it there. And, I start screaming for my mom. She comes in and she's like, you know, well, it's not his head. So that's good. It's it's your bag of waters. And so my sister, who was like thirteen at the time, was like, mom, do you want me to call nine one one? Because my mom my mom was losing her mind. So Woah. I rode in the ambulance to the hospital on base and because we lived off base. And they, were like, well, we can either push this back and inside of you and have you on bed rest and hope that you can keep the baby in a little longer and that you don't get an infection, or we can break your water and you can have the baby in about twenty minutes.
Speaker 1
Hold on. Push it back? Yeah. I've never even heard of that.
Speaker 2
I I don't know.
Speaker 1
So it wasn't it wasn't ruptured?
Speaker 2
No. It was like a bulging bag coming down. Yeah. Because that preterm, the bag is so strong. Right. Because it's not supposed to open. Right. And the baby is smaller, so it hasn't been stretched as much. There's not as much fluid as would be with, like, a term baby.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
And so I was like, well, infection sounds like a bad thing, so let's not do that. And so they broke my water, and my contractions, which had stopped, resumed. And I pushed for, like, fifteen minutes and had a three pound, three ounce, twenty nine week baby. And, so that was my first, like, birth experience. Other than, like, the really bad back labor, wasn't horrible. It was, like, five and a half hours start to finish. And then, they took him to the hospital about an hour and a half away, and I didn't get to hold him until he was three days old, because he was on, like, isolation and it took, like, a day. They thought I was sick, so they wouldn't let me into the NICU and it was this, but it was a doctor who had attended us that called in sick and it was this big mess. So he was like three days old by the time that I got to hold him and when I held him, my milk came in. And I never got to breastfeed him, but he did get some of my milk. And then at about two weeks old, they transferred him to, Chapel Hill, and he was there for about five days because he was having distension. He wasn't digesting the milk, and they thought he might have been having necrotizing enterocolitis, where parts of the intestine, they're not getting blood, and they start to die.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
So they sent him up there because they had a pediatric surgeon. They said he was fine, but they were gonna put him on a thing of antibiotics for, like, a week. And at that point, he had had all these little IVs in his hands and his feet, and his all his little vessels were shot pretty much and they couldn't do like the big, that much, IV fluid for him to live on it basically for because he wouldn't be able to have any food food, for the whole time. I don't know why, but, so they gave him a PICC line, without asking us. We had signed a waiver at the first hospital that if he ever needed a PICC line, that we were granting permission because there's a risk of death. However, they told us that the risk of death was from infection because they either do it through your, the femoral artery in your leg or through the main artery, your brachial artery in your arm and it's a really thick catheter that goes straight into the heart and so, obviously, if there's, if bacteria gets in at that site, it goes straight, straight into the heart. So we transferred to the next hospital. We didn't sign a waiver for them. I don't know if they just took our paperwork from the last hospital. They didn't say they were gonna do it or anything. I just called to check on him because it was like a three, three and a half hour drive, so we didn't get up there every day. And, I wasn't driving at the time. And so they, were like, oh yeah, we did this thing, he's doing great. So we're like, okay. That was on a Wednesday. I saw him Wednesday afternoon and Thursday, and he had not been a fussy baby. The only time he cried was when he got a diaper change. Otherwise, he never cried. I don't know if that's just a preemie thing or that was just him, but he never cried. He loved to be swaddled and all of that. And Thursday, when I saw him, he was fussy, didn't wanna be swaddled, kept crying, and I was like, something is wrong. Like, and the only, by Thursday, the only thing he was, he had a nasal cannula in the PICC line. That was it. He didn't have any of his other tubes and, and he was down to, like, almost air, like room air oxygen almost. Friday, they told us that, his, he'd gone off of the nasal cannula, that he was breathing room air on his own. And we're like, great. That's awesome. And that was, like, Friday morning and Friday afternoon. And then they called us Friday night at, like, six thirty or so. And they were, like, your son died. There's nothing we could have done. And, like, that they had tried to do, CPR for, like, thirty minutes. They had stuck a syringe in his, chest cavity and, like, pulled out air and, like, a little bit of fluid, and they didn't know they didn't know what had happened. We didn't find out what had happened until we got the autopsy results back and he the PICC line that was pumping IV fluid into his heart, the IV fluid was passing through the fibers of the muscle, through the heart, and out into the space that so the heart muscle sits in a bag, basically. It's called the pericardium, and there's a space in there that, was filling up with IV fluid. And it just kept filling until the heart basically ran out of room to beat, and he had a cardiac arrest.
Speaker 1
Oh my god.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So that was pretty Wow. Pretty intense. And so that was, but that whole experience, the whole being pregnant and knowing that I wanted to have a home birth and, you know, having him and even losing him, like, that whole thing was what put me on my path to being a midwife.
Speaker 1
Sure. And and what was his name?
Speaker 2
Emmerich. Emmerich? Mhmm. Yeah. Did they did they
Speaker 1
I I'm just I'm going back to I'm I'm imagining the part where you first show up and you have this bulging bag, and I'm wondering, like, how honest or transparent your medical team was with you about the risk of death if you break the bag and have the baby now?
Speaker 2
They didn't say anything. They didn't say what the risk of of infection. They didn't say an infection could kill him. They did say that a possible infection could have been what was, causing the preterm labor. And they did find elevated white blood cells, in his lungs when they did the when they did the autopsy, but that can also be related to, like, having a CPAP machine and, like, all these other things.
Speaker 1
So And that was twenty one days after birth.
Speaker 2
Exactly.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
They didn't test my placenta. They didn't like, I remember my mom, like, my placenta I don't even remember birthing my placenta. Like, I don't remember it at all. And I just remember my mom looking at it and, like, kinda poking it and asking the nurse if that was if it looked healthy, if that's how it was supposed to look. And she's like, yeah, it looks great. And, like, walked off, like so, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
I did what I did find is because what had happened while I was pregnant, about a month before I actually had him, I would have sex like maybe once a week. And because I was pregnant, I was like, well, we don't need to use a condom or, like, pull out or anything. We'd been together almost two years. And every time after we would have sex, I would have cramps for like three hours, and then they would go away. I was like, so then it was like Saturday night or Sunday night, because I had him on a Monday morning. I think it was like Saturday night maybe. I was like, like, don't do that. Like, don't, don't finish inside me. And I didn't have contractions. And I was like, that's what it is. If we just stop doing that, we'll be good. Right? I didn't know at the time that there is actual, like, compounds and semen that can stimulate the cervix and dah dah dah dah. But I just was smart enough to make that connection. So I was like, yeah, let's not do that. Well then like twelve hours later, I go into actual labor.
Speaker 1
And not that that caused it.
Speaker 2
Yeah. But, I think
Speaker 1
Probably was, I think.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think the biggest contributing factor, though, to the pre to the preterm labor was the amount of stress that I was under during that pregnancy.
Speaker 1
Sure.
Speaker 2
My parents hated me. They were, like, you know, I come from a relatively privileged, maybe middle class, like, military family. We didn't eat a lot of junk food I moderately well, you know, salad with dinner every night blah blah blah. But my like, the emotional sphere was extremely stressful, emotional energetic. You know, my mom would blame me for their marital problems, and my dad was like, oh, so what? Are you gonna be a welfare slot now? Like, those are the kinds of things that I was dealing with.
Speaker 1
Well, we we super undervalue stress and its impact. I mean, as a society, like Yep. Obviously, we both know that. But, obviously, I mean, that's, yeah. I'm I am sure that that's what it was. If there if there was never any discovery of anything else and that's what you feel like it was, I mean, look at look at our, you know, health disparities of women in color and you know, a lot of people are like, oh, we have no idea why that's happening. It's like, no. No. It's it's stress from the systematic racism that they deal with in their pregnancy and lives, of course. You know, it's it's, yeah, I think we don't we don't honor or acknowledge the intensity of or the impact of that on our bodies and our children enough.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1
So Yeah. It puts you on this path towards midwifery at so what so what happens after that? So you have this terrible loss through this so it sounds like subpar hospital team or decisions, and you're still sixteen ish. So what happens after that? Like, how many years later is your second baby?
Speaker 2
Well, I got pregnant again, in just just before I turned eighteen. My birthday's in December. So, I was like, a month shy of becoming eighteen. My partner, who I had had the first baby with, we had broken up, because of how, like, stressful the whole ordeal was. Neither of us could cope and it was just this mess with our parents and da da da. So we broke up. A year well, half a year goes by. I had gone away for a while. I come back. We are, kind of hooking up again, and I get pregnant. So in North Carolina, you have to be eighteen to get an abortion without, parents' consent. Yeah. Yes. Such a bad law. So, we do have a planned parenthood. It's like an hour and a half from here. So,
Speaker 1
And are your parents for or against?
Speaker 2
I was pretty sure that they would be against. Though at one point in my first pregnancy, my dad was like, you can't go to prom unless you get an abortion. And I was like twenty one weeks at that point. Gross. Yeah. So, but I knew that my mom was pretty, like, vehemently, they're very Christian, both of them. More so my mom. But, so I made the appointment. I was gonna be, like, eight weeks, a week or two after, I turned eighteen and that's when they make you come in anyway. They make you wait until you're eight weeks, which is also stupid. And he took me. He drove me down there. They wouldn't let him in with me, like, he had to sit in the waiting room the whole time. And at that point, I had already originally, I didn't really want to go through with it, but then I made the decision to, and I had come to the point where I was like, you know, I had sat down, I had had access to Sister Zeus' website and she had talked about like releasing the spirit and da da da. And so I had sat down and done that and like meditated and been like, hey look, this is not a good time. I'm not even with your father right now. Like, I'm just turning eighteen, still living with my parents. Like, this is not Yeah. Come back later. And after I did that, I no longer felt pregnant. The nausea went away, everything. Wow. The fatigue, it all went away. And so that part of the decision, I was good with. I was like, yeah, you know, I'm not pregnant anymore. The spirit's gone. It can come back later. Like, we're good. I'm, you know, I'm set with this. Not that I had ever been against it. I just had never seen myself doing it when I was younger.
Speaker 1
I don't think anyone sees themselves doing it until they're in a situation where it's the right move.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And so we went, and that was one of the most traumatic experiences of my life. Mhmm. Almost more traumatic or as traumatic as losing my son.
Speaker 1
Because of the way you were treated?
Speaker 2
Mhmm. Gross, man. And it was like
Speaker 1
It was a surgical.
Speaker 2
Yeah. It was a I did a surgical, because I was like, well, I can't, like, go home and have a miscarriage in two days. I live with my parents. Right? And I could only be with him for the night. I told my mom I was with a friend.
Speaker 1
And in theory, it sounds relatively straightforward. I mean, fifteen minutes, wham bam, you know, you're there for a couple hours. And
Speaker 2
Yeah. I was like, oh, it'll be fine. It'll be great. And they're like, yeah, we numb you. You don't feel anything. Great. Lies. Lies and slander. So I go in after I had to get, you know, the mini program shot and da da da. So we go in and I had to get ultrasound, to confirm dates. Mhmm. I go in, the nurse helps me get undressed on the table, whatever, and the, this old white haired white guy comes in that I hadn't met at all up to that point, which I guess is pretty typical. Mhmm. And, so I he's explaining kind of what he's gonna do. He's like, alright. You're gonna feel a pinch. I'm gonna numb your cervix. And not the whole time, that's what I was freaking out about. I was like, they're gonna put a shot. They're gonna put a needle in my cervix.
Speaker 1
Sure. Scary something.
Speaker 2
Like, that was like, oh my god. It's gonna hurt so bad. I barely felt a thing. I was like, oh. Oh, that's great. Okay. You know? This is gonna be great. The painful part and the traumatic part was being forcibly dilated. Mhmm. That was they didn't give me any other pain medicine, no, like, knock you out drugs, like, none of it. Which in a way I'm thankful for, but, so he numbs the cervix. I'm like, great. Okay. Awesome. The nurse is holding my hand. And then he starts dilating me and I start freaking out because it hurts so bad. And, like, it hurt more than pushing out a three pound baby and that I had just done like a year and a half before. And so I'm like crying, whatever, and the nurse is trying to like, you know, I can tell that she's starting to feel uncomfortable, like she's trying to like make me feel better. And then the doctors is just going at it, doing his thing, not saying anything to me, and starts talking to her about golf. It's like
Speaker 1
classic Yeah. Like, maybe that,
Speaker 2
oh, take your mind off the what no. Like,
Speaker 1
Yeah. Be with me here.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And so that that felt really violating.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
And I have compared it to sexual assault in the past, and I have been shot down by people. They're like, how dare you compare that to birth rape? How dare you compare that to sexual assault? And I'm like, no. Yeah.
Speaker 1
I How is it any different?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Like you went into the hospital to have your baby. You consented to go in and have babies.
Speaker 1
You didn't go in to get raped.
Speaker 2
Exactly. And so that was my you know, yeah, I had consented for the procedure, but I hadn't consented to being violated. And silenced
Speaker 1
and not acknowledged and yeah.
Speaker 2
So he leaves. He finishes and leaves. The actual, like, D and C part, like, I barely felt it all. He leaves. Doesn't even say anything to me. This is, like, to the nurse, he's like, okay, I'm done, and, like, walks out. And the nurse is, like, still freaking out trying to, like, help compose me and get me dressed and take me to the recovery room. And in the recovery room were all of these women and folks who had been in the waiting room that we had all kind of been sort of, you know, talking to each other and being like, oh, you know, your story, da da da. Totally different environment. No one is looking at anyone. No one is talking to anyone. Everyone just has the same exact, like, lost, blank, sad expression. Some people are crying. Some people are, like look like they're trying to sleep. And I'm just, like, looking around, like, what is happening? And so that is a trauma that I am still processing. I've had training in, like, home miscarriage and home abortion stuff, and had training in doing a menstrual extraction. But I have not done a menstrual extraction on anyone else yet because I can't have it done to myself. Because I still had if I even think about a cannula, like, coming anywhere near, like, my cervix, I start having an anxiety attack. Like, I haven't I've never had a pap. Like, that's how, like,
Speaker 1
Well, and and I think it's really important to name it as what it is, which is sexual assault, because, you know, we have to think about it in terms of sex because the penis isn't the problem. The the the the instrument that that's used to dilate the cervix isn't the problem. It's how the penis is used or it's how the instrument is used and the environment and support or lack of support and consent or lack of consent and acknowledgement and honor or lack of those things. That's what makes it either good sex or horrific abusive sex or, a good abortion or a horrific abusive abortion. And this is the this is the line of trauma or not. And, you know, of course, we see it as birth workers in every area of these fields. And Yeah. You know, if for anyone listening who, you know, this story's freaking them out or, you know, concerning them and may have an abortion in their life. Like, let me also say there are good abortions, and I'm
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
So sorry to you that you didn't get one with this. You know, I don't know the rest of your story yet. And this is also a very common story, you know, and and and women feeling really silenced and really treated robotically. And, like, him not even saying anything when he leaves, that is so weird when you pull back. I mean, not even when you pull back when you're there, but, you know, just to hear that, it never even though I hear these stories all the time with birth and with abortion, it it it never doesn't blow my mind how inhumane that kind of exchange or lack of exchange is and you know it's so important to share these stories because I know that they're really common. You know the the abortion clinics that that we work with in LA allow companions and allow abortion doulas and are super patient friendly and you meet the the provider beforehand and it's like this totally different, you know story. But you know, it's not like it's just like hospitals. You know you don't know which one you're gonna get you don't know because how do you even do that kind of homework beforehand? You're eighteen. Like, how do you even know to ask those questions? Or Mhmm. It doesn't matter if you're eighteen or forty. You know, it just
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
We don't know even you know, it's it's uncharted territory. So, yeah, I've my heart goes out to you. That is it didn't make me.
Speaker 2
That was my opening of awareness to that whole side of the health care system, women's health, that part of maternity care because that is part of maternity care. And, that was where I was like, no, there's a different way to do this. Yeah. And so that has actually, that type of work has actually been a huge part of my work as a birth worker, which I'll go in with my fourth and fifth pregnancy. But, so there is a good abortion story at the end of that. Good. So five months after that, I got pregnant. Yes. At this point, me and the same partner are officially back together. We got back together in March. I got pregnant the end of May beginning of May, end of May. And I was like, no. I'm not doing that again. Like Oh
Speaker 1
my god. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I was like, no. No way. So, so I did, you know, conventional maternity care like, like, pregnancy, prenatal care, at like the local women's health place. Saw mostly midwives, a couple of doctors, but, that was also just kind of like this weird thing of like, oh, so this is what the care system looks like? Like, this is this is crap. You know, you're in the waiting room for an hour and you're actually in there with the care provider for five or ten minutes. Yeah. No one knows who you are. They're not checking on you really.
Speaker 1
So sorry. Just just to be clear, with the first one, you were in the care of a home birth midwife?
Speaker 2
No. Naval health care.
Speaker 1
Okay. And was that better than your third pregnancy?
Speaker 2
It was probably about the same. But when I was that age, I didn't know that there was something different. And by the time that I was pregnant with Ash, my second son, I had already started, like, studying into, like, basically my midwifery studies in, like, doula. And, with him, because I had, preterm delivery Yeah. I was considered high risk. I was nineteen at the time. So I was considered high risk. No. I was eighteen. I had him. I turned nineteen, and then I had him. So, because he was born in February. And, so I was still considered high risk. They were giving me progesterone injections every week from sixteen weeks until thirty two or thirty five weeks. And I got a excessive amount of ultrasounds and, like, Doppler heart monitoring Because I was in the doctor's office, like, every week or every two weeks. And so there were dozens. Like, regular big ultrasounds, I probably had, like, five.
Speaker 1
As if any of those tools could have even predicted a preterm labor.
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's it's because when for the first, like, from sixteen to twenty four weeks, they are doing a transvaginal ultrasound to make sure that the cervix isn't shortening.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
And then the regular ultrasounds on top of that. And then every week that I went in for a shot after sixteen weeks, they listened to his heart tones.
Speaker 1
Right. Triple whammy.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I honestly believe that it scrambled his brain a little bit, and he has some, like, learning troubles. Yeah. And he had midline defects. He had tongue tie, lip tie. He had a dimple at the base of his spine. And so, you know, those that can contribute to all of that. So Yeah. So can we nutrition. But So can what? Nutrition.
Speaker 1
Sure. But we do know that I mean, there are many studies out there now that show that the heat from the ultrasound waves does morph cells. How much? Or, you know, obviously, we we we can't predict, and there's no incentive to study this stuff. You know? But we know now, right, that ultrasounds have never been proven safe and that they they can and do more cells. So if people are getting them all the time, it it actually makes less sense to think it wouldn't affect the baby.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. Yeah. So, with him, I also wanted a home birth. I was pushing my partner. My he was not on board. I managed to interview a underground CPM in North Carolina. She was gonna work with us on affordability because we were, like, ramen noodle poor at that time. I had to give my car back to my parents because they wouldn't pay for it and I couldn't afford it. And so they, you know, she was she was gonna work with us, but we found her really late. Like, it was I found her through word-of-mouth from another doula, who had worked with her at a birth and who then attended her own birth. And I was, like, thirty thirty two weeks, I think, when we met her, so it was really late in. And that was also about the time when I met my first frontier trained CNM. That was really nice. Out of any CNMs, like, that's, you know, their their focus is home birth. And she was working in the women's health clinic, but she had that home birth mentality. And she sat me down, it was like thirty two weeks, and she like looks at my chart. She was with me for like thirty minutes and she's like, so tell me about your pregnancy up to this point and how have you been and how are you eating and how are your, how was your first loss, and da da da, and, and what do you want for your birth? Like, what's your birth plan? She was the first person up to that point to do that out of a practice that has, like, twenty five midwives and two doctors. And, she was like, yeah, you can labor in the shower and he can catch the baby if you want. And she's like, you know what my favorite part is? That's my favorite part is when the dad catches the baby. And she's like, you know what? You can just be like, Oh, I'm in the shower, and just not say anything when the baby comes and let him catch the baby. Like, that was, that was her idea. And I was like, Oh, that's great. She's like, You can have intermittent monitoring instead of continuous. You don't have to you know, it's your choice to get antibiotics and da da da. So I was like, yeah. This is looking really hopeful if I do if I don't find a midwife and we do a hospital birth. Well, because we found the midwife so late, she was like, I need a thousand dollars by the birth, and then I'll work with you for a year to pay off the other thousand. I thought that was reasonable, but I wasn't working at the time, So he thought that wasn't possible. And I think part of it really was that he just was not on board because he was afraid of what happened the first time.
Speaker 1
Of course. And if he was on board, you guys probably would have made it happen.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So that so we ended up, having him at the hospital. And, I went into labor after having sex.
Speaker 1
Oh my god, girl.
Speaker 2
At what Through that? Thirty nine. Thirty nine weeks. But that whole time, I would not let him, like, finish Yeah. Inside. So I was like, no. Like, I'm still thinking
Speaker 1
this is okay. I'm like,
Speaker 2
we're not gonna do that. And I started, kind of, like, pre labor stuff at, like, thirty two, thirty four weeks, like, really strong Braxton Hicks and, toning contractions, whatever you wanna call them, and just kind of periodically. And so that last night, it was, like, four in the afternoon, we had sex. I was, like, fine. Go ahead. It's, like, we're already we're almost there. Like, it'll be fine. Within the hour, I was in active labor. But I think, you know, at that point, I'd already been in pre labor for weeks. So, labor started really fast, really intense, all in my back again. Contractions were, like, three to four minutes apart from the start. And I kept getting up and going to the bathroom and being, like, God, I have to poop. Like, I really feel like I have to poop. And I'm on the phone with my mom, and she's, like, you what? Yeah. They're the magic words. I was like, I feel like I have to poop. And she's like, go to the hospital Yeah. Now. So I'd only been at home for an hour and a half. Well, about an hour, hour and a half. It was a thirty minute drive to the hospital through base traffic at five o'clock. We get to the hospital, and I had him about an hour later. So it was about three and a half hours altogether. They put the belt around me. They clipped the IV to me, said you have to have antibiotics because I was GPS positive. Wouldn't let me get up, get in the shower. Like, I just laid on the bed on my side feeling like I was gonna vomit for, like, an hour, just having contractions. And then I started to have, like, those those, like, your body's pushing sensations. And, I feel the bag descend, and it pops. And, at that point, they're like, okay. Like, let's get you up off your side and get you like, they checked me and they're like, oh, well, you're gonna have a baby. So we're like, okay. I had wanted to be, you know, walking around. I had wanted to, like, be up on hands and knees or squatting. No. They put me into the typical, you know, sitting up feet in the stirrup position, and they're like, okay. Start pushing. And I didn't have to push. Like, my body was already pushing. And I had a nurse midwife. I didn't have a doctor. And she, you know, she's coaching me. She's like push, push, push, blah, blah, blah. And as he's crowning, I can feel myself starting to tear. And I'm like, you know, telling her, I'm like, Hey, like, I can feel myself tearing, like, that hurts, like, and she's like, No, no, no, keep pushing it, keep pushing.
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's supposed to hurt, we can just suture it after.
Speaker 2
Yeah, and I could feel it up, like, towards my clitoris and I could feel it down. And, that is not a nice sensation at all. And, so I'm like, she's still, like, being really forceful with me. I'm like, push push push, keep pushing, keep pushing, push push push.
Speaker 1
Oh, that is so annoying.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And at that point, I am angry. Like, I start yelling, and I'm like, I'm effing tearing, like like stop stop yelling at me, stop telling me what to do, like yelling at her. I mean, nineteen years old yelling at her. And she was like, no, no, no, keep pushing. And so his head comes out, and I'm just like, okay. That's great. Like, the contractions are pausing. Like, this feels great. We were just gonna take a break for a second, And she's on my ass again. Push, push, push. Nope, nope. He's gotta come out. Push, push, push. Now, later, after the fact, I know that he was restituting. When the head comes out, the head turns, and then the shoulders have to do a rotation inside the body so that they can come out under the pubic arch. Didn't know that at the time, but I was not afraid. I was like, he's fine. Like, he'll come out. And she's yelling at me at this point. Wow. Push. Push. Push. So the contractions kinda start up again, so I'm pushing not even a minute had gone by. And, and he comes out. So he comes out. She puts him on on my stomach. At that point, like, the adrenaline is kicking in. And, like, he didn't even have the cord around his neck. Like, nothing was wrong. Like, she was just, he's not coming. Push. Push. Like, and I'm like, it's, like, the anatomy and the physiology. Like, it was fine. And so at that point, like, I'm shaking, like, really, really bad. And I'm terribly cold all of a sudden, and, I'm like holding him and he's crying and there's like blood all over me and, like, I'm like, I don't know what to do. I've never actually gotten to hold the baby right away. Like, and so she, goes to, I feel her start tugging on the cord. And she's like and not even like five minutes or so had gone by, and she's already tugging on my placenta. And so she's tugging on it and she's like, push a little bit. So I'm like, okay, I guess. And so the placenta comes out. They took him. She's like, well, I need to stitch you. And I was like, well, I'm shaking, like, horribly, and I'm already terrified. Now I have to get stitches. So I let them take him over to get, like, his feet done and kinda wiped up and whatever, thinking that they would bring him back to me after she was done stitching. She's not done stitching yet. She had to do, like, twenty some or so stitches in my perineum, and she stitched me too tight. It's called a husband stitch. They do a little extra one to make you a little bit tighter again. My husband is not small. Gross. And it hurt to have sex until he was about two.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And
Speaker 2
then it finally kinda quit hurting.
Speaker 1
Did she say anything about the husband stitch when she was doing it?
Speaker 2
Nope. She's just like, I had to do a lot of stitches. I had to do, like, twenty or so. And,
Speaker 1
so I've been in birthing rooms where usually it's a man stitching, says, you know, to the father, I'm gonna throw an extra stitch in there for you.
Speaker 2
And they're like, oh ho ho ho ho ho. And then they actually do it.
Speaker 1
And then they actually do it.
Speaker 2
No. So so I hadn't I didn't know about that until I told my friend about it. And she's like, oh, yeah. They call it a husband stitch.
Speaker 1
When it's stitched when it's over over stitched.
Speaker 2
Over stitched. Yeah. They did it to her too. And, they, they ended up taking him to, like, the nursery while she's still finishing up. And then because I couldn't feel anything because of the numbing medication, I was like, I need to pee but I can't feel to, like, pee. And so, they gave me a bed pan and I couldn't tell if I was peeing or not. And and it went everywhere and I already had blood on me, so I was like, well, I need a shower now. So I take a shower and my my partner was texting me and he's like, they're getting mad that you're taking too long. Like, they want to finish up with him. They want to give him a bath, like, blah blah blah. And I'm like, well, tell them to wait. Like, so I finally get in there. They don't even let us bathe him. They we had to stand there and watch as they bathed him. And then instead of giving him to us, they stuck him in the incubator for, like, fifteen, twenty minutes, and they're like, oh, we'll bring him to you in the room and, like, shoo us out the door. So at this point, it's almost eleven o'clock at night. I had him at almost eight thirty, and, they finally brought him. He wouldn't nurse. We missed our whole golden hour, after he was born. He wouldn't nurse. The next morning like, we were still undecided about circumcision. The next morning, they're like, well, if you want it done, you have to take him they have to take him now. Because I wanted to wait until he was, like, a week old so that the vitamin k and the blood clotting was all good, because I knew at least that much. And I was like, well, if we do it, I want to wait at least a week. They're like, well, you have to do it now if you're gonna do it. And we're like, oh, God. Like, we didn't know that we could have just waited or not done it. So they took him, wasn't even twenty four hours old, hadn't nursed yet, still hadn't nursed yet. And this whole time, I've been asking for a lactation consultant, by the way. So they take him to get circumcised. I was like, well, go with them. Like, because my aunt, who was a RN and told me about the the bleeding and stuff, she her husband had gone with their sons. And I was like, well, you need to at least go with him. And they're like, oh, no. He can't come with. So we were like, you know? So they bring him back, like, two hours later. He has his first meconium poop after he was circumcised. And I'm, like, bawling my eyes out, you know, freaking out. Like, I did this to him. Like, I'm a horrible person. I'm a horrible mom. Like, I did this to him. And that's still a trauma that I carry around. Sure. And now I'm gonna cry.
Speaker 1
It's okay. I understand.
Speaker 2
So, still asking for lactation consultants, still asking for lactation consultants. Finally, like, five thirty at night, that, like, that night, he finally nurses for the first time. And we had a rocky, rocky road breastfeeding.
Speaker 1
I bet.
Speaker 2
I suspected a lip tie, had no idea about the tongue tie, never got either of them looked at or dealt with, and I just pushed through it. And we did end up nursing until he was three. But at the time, you know, I didn't know that it could have been easier. It could have been not painful. I didn't know that I had severe postpartum depression and had it for almost a year. I started to feel better one day. I was like, oh, something was terribly, terribly wrong. How
Speaker 1
old is he now?
Speaker 2
He will be six in February.
Speaker 1
Okay.
Speaker 2
And we actually have, I mean, he loves me, and I obviously love him as his mom, but I also feel like there's this wall between us. Like, we never really solidified our bond. Yeah. I mean, that's something
Speaker 1
there's real hormonal gaps that occur
Speaker 2
and
Speaker 1
you don't get those back. And that's so sad. And there's other ways of bonding of course. And you breastfed fed for three years, and you you obviously did so much other stuff. But physiologically, the gaps of being separated after birth
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
It's no joke.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Like, I had I would post on Facebook about it when he was, like, six months old, a year old, like be like, what's wrong with me? Like, I don't wanna be with my baby. Like part of it too, I was depressed, but, I was like, you know, I I feel like there's not this connection that I think should be there and people would be like, oh, you know, just baby wear and co sleep and breastfeed. I'm like, yeah, that's all shit we've been doing. Of course. Like since he was born. Well,
Speaker 1
it makes, it makes me think of, you know how growing up, like your people will be like, if a bird falls out of a nest, don't touch it because if the mom smells another scent, it won't mother the young like we see all of these examples in nature where when there is a unnatural separation of mother and young
Speaker 2
They'll abandon it.
Speaker 1
Shit goes weird. And it's and it goes off and, you know, that the mothers would be become disinterested or, you know, whatever it is. And then we, like, mock that we could be like that with all of the seasons and interventions and circumcisions or separation. And it's just, like, it's so obvious. But
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
You know, it's like, what would happen if we acknowledged it? We'd actually have to change our practices.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So that's that's still something that I kind of struggle with. And I thought that maybe, like, having Rowan unassisted, or even just whether unassisted or assisted, of just having her naturally and not getting that separation time that, you know, I would be bonding with her. But if he was there, I thought that maybe he would get, like, residual, like, I would also maybe could get that bond back with him, and I don't, I don't think it works that way. Like, I had hoped, but it's, it didn't. I think at that point the damage was done.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
And you know, I love him, like I would lose my mind if anything ever happened to him, but it's, it's not the same, like I don't feel the same way about him that I do about her. And it's really interesting, and sad, but, so But it's not that
Speaker 1
I think it's just so important you're already doing it, but to really point to, like, the physiology of this. This isn't, you know, because of course we're in a culture where, like, you're not supposed to say that stuff. And, you know, it's it's I'm sure that, you know, you've gotten the whole spectrum of responses when you when you share that, you know, but the reality is the physiology of bonding hormonally was disrupted, and that causes disconnection. It just does. And Mhmm.
Speaker 2
All
Speaker 1
you're doing is acknowledging what has been proven in every way, shape, or form.
Speaker 2
And
Speaker 1
and, you know, because we're not supposed to talk about it, it's I'm I'm proud of you for doing that because I know that there's someone listening right now who had c sections with, you know, one or two or three other babies and then did it with another and is feeling similarly, you know, or or, you know, obviously, it's not just c sections because that wasn't your story, but, had separation
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
You know, and and don't have a place to say it and feel horrible for feeling that way. But you know we're not by talking about it. We can really get to the root of it, which is the system failed you guys you had forced an unnecessary separation and it caused quite likely a lifelong. Gap of some sort you know and there's lots of ways to of course like work on it and be together and love and all of that stuff. But yeah and it's important to acknowledge because I think it's way more common than you know, I mean, you are obviously, I already know this because you're in the birth world. Like, it just it happens all the time.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And it was it was kind of comical because it was like day two because, you know, I had him so fast after they they gave me antibiotics for GBS and because I had him so fast, they have to be in your system for four hours for it to do anything and I had him like an hour later, and so they made us stay for forty eight hour observation. And by the second day, my partner, he's like, I gotta get out of here. I don't wanna be here. I just want us to go home. And I'm like, you're the one who wanted to be here. Damn. So, yeah. So, you know, and and really, like, all of these experiences, like, losing my first son and, you know, having the clinical abortion, and having, like, my pregnancy release at home after Ash was born, and having Ash and having Rowan, like, all of these experiences have just been, to me, like, initiations, basically, to this work. And I've had other people kind of echo that without me having to, like, say anything, that I've talked to about it.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And to the, like, the heartache that it is to be a woman and a and a birthing woman and a fertile woman and the way that society oppresses and abuses us, you know, and Yeah. It's, ugh, God.
Speaker 2
And how to how to show up, you know, I've I've never agreed with the whole idiom that, like, oh, you can't be a midwife if you've never had a baby. Like, I don't necessarily agree with that, but I also think that there is something to having an experience before showing up for someone else who's also had that experience. That that just kind of adds something to it. Like
Speaker 1
Well, it can go either way. Right? It can it can go either way because I think a lot of birth workers are very colored by their births in a in a not helpful way.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
You know? And because the variety of experience is so massive
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
Sometimes I feel like not having experienced birth really made me more of an empty cup.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
But I think on on to your point, I think having had whatever your experience is, if you can take it there, it's incredibly humbling. And there's a there's a maturity, I think, once you've walked through it, that you you can't touch if you haven't. Mhmm. So let's Yeah. Let's pivot a little bit towards Rowan's birth and and how how long after Ash's birth was that and how obviously, you had a really rough year. So what kind of led you I mean, it's pretty obvious what led you to free birth. I wouldn't freaking go back either, but you know what I mean. What tell me. Talk speak about that journey.
Speaker 2
So having a couple years, between Ash and Rowan, I got pregnant two more times, and, I was like, well, we don't want another baby right now. I'm not going back to the clinic. At this point, I have studied enough, to know that there is alternatives, and I was like, you know, I already believe in having babies at home. Why can't I do this at home? And so, I had two herbal plus medication, self induced pregnancy releases at home that were super healing. They were hard, of course, but they were super healing for me. And they were also learning experiences for me. You know, I learned things that I didn't know from from my book studies, that I could then take on to help other people. And,
Speaker 1
And so they were they were medical abortions, like you took the pills?
Speaker 2
I started with herbs. I successfully ended both pregnancies with herbs, but did not induce bleeding with herbs. And the first time, Ash was only like a year and a half, so I was still pretty actively breastfeeding. And I couldn't take any of the stronger herbs, particularly the estrogenic herbs, because they do pass through the breast milk and can affect, the nursing. So, with both, I, ended up taking misoprostol, which is the the mifepristone is what they give you in the doctor's office and they're like, this is what ends the pregnancy, and then they send you home with the miso to take twenty four to forty eight hours later to expel, the contents of the uterus.
Speaker 1
So how did you get the miso?
Speaker 2
I have, like, health care type of people in my network that do this work.
Speaker 1
Nice.
Speaker 2
That I've trained with to do this work.
Speaker 1
That's like, kind of under the table, right?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And they can legally obtain it. It's just a weird kind of gray area, you know, on
Speaker 1
God forbid, we had access to it on our own will.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I mean, it's it's an over the counter drug in every foreign country. Totally. Totally. So a really close friend and colleague of mine, who was working with me through both of these and who I've studied with, you know, was there for me and and I was at home and was supported by my partner in doing it. He had, you know, same partner and he was like, you know, this is your choice. Like, I'm not he's like, yeah. We shouldn't have another baby right now but this is it's your choice.
Speaker 1
So you've you've been with this guy since you were, like, fourteen?
Speaker 2
Fifteen.
Speaker 1
Wow. Crazy. Yep. So you have two
Speaker 2
Minus, like, the year we were broken up.
Speaker 1
Right. So you have two medical slash herbal home terminations.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. That that was when I started using the term pregnancy release, which if you ever see that around, I was the one that started that. Okay. Cool. I see it a lot now, like in little circles and I like that. People are starting to use that. And to me, that was to include miscarriage, abortion Mhmm. At home or in a clinic, you know, term loss, whatever, without the stigma and Totally. And also the political
Speaker 1
Yeah. And back in the day I mean, some women still say this, but, yeah, back in the day, women used to just call it bringing their periods on
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
You know, or bringing their cycles on.
Speaker 2
Inducing menses. Yeah. It's all
Speaker 1
the same.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So So
Speaker 1
you have two powerful experiences with pregnancy release at home. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And then I got pregnant. And and part of a really big part of those is I was very involved with ceremony, with both experiences. I have a very active spiritual practice. I'm pagan and, so the whole thing was steeped in ceremony. And the second one, I was like, hey, look, like spirits, ancestors, like God's people that I work with, like, can you just hold on to this little light being a little bit longer, please? Like, I really want to bring this baby in when it's like, I, you know, they come when they come, but I was like, you know, I really want this situation to be, I wanna be homesteading, I wanna be like, you know, have our own little place and, you know, I wanna be in that, you know, where I can be eating really well and, really dedicate to this pregnancy and be where I have the right people with me if I, you know, at the time I thought that I was just like, no, I'm just gonna have a home birth. Like, you know, I was like, I want this to be in place, right? So, do the thing. Six months later, I put out a little seed to the universe and I'm like, hey, I'm looking to move to Oregon. Does somebody have like a place we can set up a yurt or whatever? Someone contacts me that I was an acquaintance with in Southern Oregon. She was a nurse midwife and she was like, I need a caretaker for my house for a year. So within a week of us entertaining the idea of moving to her one acre homestead in Southern Oregon, I found out I was pregnant. Well, I guess I got pregnant and then, like, a week later, found out I was pregnant. -Mhmm. -So, funny little universe thing. And so that was basically, like, I was like, Yeah, well, you know, we can't keep staying in our situation and have this baby, so we have to move. And so, we moved cross country when I was, well, at that point, I was I had already done my midwifery, like, my didactic schooling, not, like, the punishment stuff, but, and I was like, Yeah. At this point, I don't even need, like, I don't even really need a midwife. Like, I'm pretty sure that we've got this. Like, and I was like, I can do my own prenatal care way better than what I've been receiving. And so I got a proof of pregnancy right before we left, and I went to get my hospital records from when I had ASH. Found out that they had given me Pitocin for third stage management, which they hadn't told me that they had done. I was super angry about, which can also affect bonding. Oh, yeah. So figure out. And so we went, we moved, and I just I was in early pregnancy. I was swimming pretty often. I was doing yoga pretty often. I was eating okay until we moved, and then I was eating really well for, like, the rest of the pregnancy, because we had a lot of access to, you know, organic foods and fresh produce and this and that while we were in Oregon that we don't really have here. There were a couple things that came up while I was pregnant that I just asked, like, other student midwives or, like, midwife friends about just to get their thoughts on it, not to be like, oh, do I need to do this or just to see what they thought and what resonated or didn't with me. And I did have, I was apprenticing at a birth center for a little while and, while I was pregnant before they had me go on maternity leave. And I did have, my preceptor, just palpate just to make sure that there was one baby, because I didn't want a surprise twin because I didn't get any ultrasounds the whole time I was pregnant with her. And then, there was one point where I got a really bad sunburn and there was one day that my legs swelled really bad. And that kinda worried me. My blood pressure was fine. But I was just like, what is going on with the swelling of the legs? Well, the sunburn finally peeled and was a really wet peel, and all the fluid came out. Woah. So that was interesting. And the whole time that I was pregnant, I just kept coming back to hemorrhage. And it wasn't a fear. It wasn't like, oh, God, like, what if I hemorrhage? I'm gonna die. Like, it wasn't this it wasn't a fear based thing. So the way that I've had it explained to me is that if it just occurs to you and it's not based in fear, that it's your intuition. It's when it's based in fear that it's usually something external that's, you know, giving you this impression or this idea, this fear. And so I just kept coming back to it. I'm like, yeah. Well, this may or may not be part of my reality, so I'm just gonna prepare for it just in case. Like, breach didn't bother me. Like, none of none of the other stuff that people would normally, like, worry, quote, unquote, about. I even I was like, like, it's fine. But with the hemorrhage, I was like, yeah. I'm not sure about this. And it was pretty strong. Like, it was so strong that I had two separate people who I hadn't spoken to about it say something to me. And be like, I just am getting this weird feeling. This this thought is occurring to me, not trying to push this on you, but have you considered a postpartum hemorrhage? And I was like, yep. Yeah. I have, actually. One of whom was the midwife whose house we were staying at and one of whom was, a friend of mine who's also a midwifery student. She's one of my best friends. And she just she just messaged me one day and was like, hey, this just occurred to me. So,
Speaker 1
So take me take me to the to the birth.
Speaker 2
So I have pre labor again for a few weeks. Started at, like, thirty four ish weeks or so. Just pretty strong toning contractions and, you know, body getting ready. And I went into labor, the day after the autumn equinox. The lady who owned the house was gone. She had gone to the coast for the night, and I had not wanted her to be there at all, like, even on the premises for the birth. She had a really bad energy, and we had been fighting. She had tried to kick us out when I was, like, thirty five weeks pregnant. Had tried to tell us we couldn't have our free birth there, because she thought we would hold her liable if something happened. So, I went into labor, like, five thirty in the morning. I'm like, Yeah, this is this is it. I just kind of went with it for, like, thirty minutes or so, but I was afraid because my first birth had been five and a half hours, my second birth had been three and a half hours. I was like, oh, God, this one's gonna be, like, forty five minutes or something, which I didn't really want. And so I was like, well, I'll wake him up. So we had planned a outside birth. We had spent weeks setting up my Lavu, which is a Scandinavian tipi like structure. And so I sent him outside to start, you know, start a fire and because it was kinda chilly. Late September, and so I went outside. We left my son sleeping in the house for a while, and, I went outside and was just laboring for a while, and it was so easy compared to, like, the other two. I didn't have the back labor. The contractions were moderately spaced. They weren't right on top of each other like the other ones had been. And, for the most part, like, I didn't really feel the need to have anyone with me. And Sean was just kind of in and out, you know, collecting firewood. We had greatly underestimated how much firewood we would need. FYI, for anyone planning an outside fire birth, have too much firewood. And, at about seven, eight o'clock, we went and got my son out of the house, and I was really undecided on whether I wanted him there or not, because I was like, Oh, he's gonna be bouncing around, he's gonna be distracting, but he did really, really well. Every once in a while he would get kind of bored, and so he would just go help his dad to, like, collect firewood. And the other kind of keynote thing for my labor was I drummed, shamanic drumming, with every contraction. And I thought it was a fluke. I was like, oh, well, you know, I'll just I'll just not drum for this next contraction and see how it feels. Halfway through the contraction, I had to start drumming again. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it was, but that was my pain management. That was keeping me in that that brainwave state, that deep delta.
Speaker 1
Oh, really? That's amazing. That makes so much sense.
Speaker 2
Yeah. It was like I drummed for five hours, between contractions and I didn't really I didn't get up and walk around. I didn't really wanna do that. And I when we first went outside I had like made my offerings to like the land spirits that were there and, like, the, you know, the goddess Brigid that I was working with that whole pregnancy and, and then, you know, went inside and then I basically stayed there until everything was done. And I was on hands and knees mostly just rocking, and, there was, there was a point probably about what would have been transition, where I kind of, like, started to panic a little bit and was like, Oh, God. This is really intense. And it was all in my back for a second. And that was the first point that I had my partner come over and actually touch me. And, I was like, I need you to like, do the hip squeeze and like, rub my back. It's pretty intense and it hurts right now, and I'm kind of freaking out. And, you know, every once in a while my son would be like, is mommy okay? And he's like, yeah, mommy's okay. Your your baby sibling's coming, you know. And he was really good about it and really quiet, and just watched for most of the time. And, you know, I had him behind me, was leaning into him, and he was doing the hip squeeze and stuff, and then, that lasted a few minutes. And then, she, I started to feel, the the pushing urges, and so my body was just pushing on its own, and I was on my knees, and I actually had the fetal ejection reflex, and I popped up onto, like, I think they call it a running lunge where you're, like, on one knee and then the other knee is up, like, on the foot. And, I just popped up into that and was like, oh, like, that little bit of adrenaline hits you and the baby's coming. And she starts to crown and I've got, you know, like, my hands, between my between my legs and, I start kind of freaking out a little bit that I'm gonna tear. And I'm like, oh, God. I don't wanna tear. I don't wanna tear because I could feel it kind of burning. And so that was kind of freaking me out and then I was, you know, huffing through her, crowning. Her head comes out, and I can feel she's got a cord over her shoulder, and I wait for her to restitute. And then as she kind of, like, turns and starts to come out, I, like, popped the umbilical cord off over her shoulder.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And she slid out. And I'm just, like, holding her down on the ground, like, looking at her, and I'm just like, baby. Baby. You know? And, and my partner was the one that saw, that, she was a girl and, was like it's a girl and, he's just kind of sitting there like with a towel like do I hand this to you like what do you want me to do? And then I just kind of gradually like leaned back over onto my little palette and the whole time I had been on this, deer skin and so, some of like the blood kind of came off the Chuck's pad and got onto the deer skin and I think it's still stained. And so I kind of lean back over onto the palate and, bring her up to my breast and she was just kind of calm, like not really freaking out anymore and, she was pinking up and she was pretty purple which is good and then she was pinking up really well and, I have mixed babies so this the coloring is a little bit different than with just white babies but it was really healthy color and, they, after maybe fifteen minutes or so, twenty minutes, she latched, and the placenta still wasn't coming. And I was having little gushes, every so often, and I was like, Yeah, okay. And the whole time I had been pregnant and being like, Okay, like, I'm preparing for postpartum bleed, I had been taking nettle. I had been taking alfalfa in the last month. I had been taking red raspberry leaf, grass fed beef liver capsules periodically every few days or so for most of the pregnancy. Was, you know, making sure that my diet was really well, was upping those blood building, herbs and things like that. And then at the very end, like the last couple weeks, I started taking chlorophyll, liquid chlorophyll, and really a lot of nettle. Mhmm. Nettle is my go to for everything. Like, anyone drink nettle tea all the time. And I had a, like, a whole postpartum hemorrhage kit. I had everything from homeopathics to herbs to misoprostol, which is what most midwives use at home for hemorrhage. I did not have Pitocin. I had a midwife friend who could have gotten me a shot of Pitocin, but I didn't want that.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
And, and I was like, if it gets to that point that the misoprostol doesn't work, I need to be in the hospital. And, but I had everything. I had written out how to do a bimanual compression and gone over it with my partner. Like, had done the whole everything. And so shortly after she was born, I was like, I don't really like this bleeding. Like, it wasn't, like, copious amounts of blood, but it would be a decent gush every, like, five or ten minutes. And I was like, the placenta's not coming. Like, after the first two, it came out in, like, five minutes, but I had gotten pitocin management, so
Speaker 1
And the, the doctor pulled it out with ash.
Speaker 2
Yeah, and she did traction, so Yeah,
Speaker 1
so you haven't had a normal third stage yet.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. So that was a whole new experience for me. I didn't know what, I knew that for my pregnancy releases at home, that retained tissue was typical for me. That's happened twice, but I think that's just my body. And I dealt with it at home both times. But, so with her postpartum, she was nursing, I skipped homeopathics, and I went right to, I think I did blue cohosh tincture, and I took, like, two dropper fulls, before the placenta came, and then I took one or two dropper fulls after the placenta finally came. The placenta took, like, forty, forty five minutes. And I didn't like, I would kind of, like, sit up and kind of pull on it just a little bit to see, like, has it completely detached and I can just pull it out now or Mhmm. Is it still there? And, and it just stayed there for a while. And, and eventually, it came out with, like, a pretty big gush, and but I I never felt woozy. I never felt shocky. I never went white. I never, you know, had any of those types of symptoms that would be, adverse. So, And
Speaker 1
it was just you and your partner. So did you feel, like, was he kind of in charge of, I'm trying to think how to ask this question like obviously you can monitor yourself up to a point.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
But at some point with with hemorrhage in particular, you know, you can kind of, like, feel like you're leaving your body and and get that you know, it's it would be harder to communicate that with your partner pretty with it to be, like, noticing all of that. And and
Speaker 2
Yeah. I don't really know how to ask
Speaker 1
that question. I'm I think you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Because, like, we didn't do fetal heart tones during labor. We didn't do blood pressure during labor. Like, we didn't do any of that. So, it was basically just kind of like a, hey. Just kinda look out for me. If I'm like if I look at you and be like, this is a lot of blood, like, you know, he was gonna be on top of that. Or just for him to realize like, oh, she's fainting. Like or, you know, she went white. Like, those those kinds of things, which none of that happened. And it was a decent amount of blood, but I think because I was healthy, because I had done a lot with nutrition in, and building my blood while I was pregnant, I a lot of women just lose a lot of blood right at the birth instead of in the postpartum. Mhmm. That's just how their body does it. And if you've really, you know, built up your blood volume, it's not really a concern. It's when you have a really not expanded blood volume. If you lose a lot of blood, like, you're done. Like, you need a transfusion, like, and that's why hemorrhage is such an issue with, with abortions or miscarriage because you haven't reached that point yet where your blood volume expands. So you can't lose that much blood. Two cups in a miscarriage is, like, you're in the hospital getting a transfusion, whereas two cups at birth, if you're a healthy mom, might not be an issue. Totally. And I never waited. I never measured any of it. So I don't know how much it actually was. But, and so I just I took my blue cohosh just twice and then the placenta finally came. And, after that, it was like after eleven in the morning. She came, we didn't get her exact time of birth. We totally forgot about that. We got her time, like, we guesstimated a time, like, five minutes after she was born. So I was like, great. Now her astrology chart's gonna be off forever. Like so, we just put it on her birth certificate as ten thirty six because, that's kind of a number for us. I was born at four thirty six in the morning. Emerick was born at nine thirty six in the morning. Ash was born at eight twenty six at night, and I think if she hadn't been so adamant about pushing, he would have been born at eight thirty six. So we so we said ten thirty six for her, which might have just been off a couple of minutes. And, so we went in the house and I drank coconut water, you know, to hydrate again. And I rested and I made sure that I was getting up every, like, thirty minutes to use the bathroom to get clots out and keep my bladder empty, you know, to prevent late late postpartum hemorrhage and, and ate a little bit and, she slept for like three hours the first time after she was born. Like I don't know what to do with myself. Like, Ash, he slept for an hour. Would wake up for ten minutes, sleep for an hour until he was like six months old. And she's like, nope, I can sleep like two and a half hours peachy king. And so in the postpartum like a couple days after she was born I was pretty weak. I never got shocky, you know, I never did any of that and the bleeding like slowed down a lot after, like, my, my postpartum lochia bleeding, was, like, moderate, like, period like, occasional clots and, yeah, I just kept up the, the regimen that I had been doing up to the birth, I kept doing for, like, two or three weeks after the birth to help build my blood up again.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
But I was doing it, like, every day. So, like, a tablespoon of liquid chlorophyll and, you know, the nettle and the red raspberry leaf, tea, little infusion and, taking, I ate a little bit of my placenta every couple days, for like three times. I had it in like smoothies. I didn't, like, turn it into capsules or anything. I was going to but I never had time. So we gave it when we moved again when she was six months old, we gave it to the headwaters of the Sacramento River at Mount Shasta. So that was that was kinda cool. So, yeah, and she's now two.
Speaker 1
Wow. Wow. What a journey. So how do you feel having, you know, let's say at this point, being two years out of your most recent birth experience, obviously, your most positive, and how how do you kind of encapsulate this whole experience as as it is a part of your life today?
Speaker 2
I definitely feel that it changed the way that I want to practice as a birth worker. Now I am very into educating about the option of rebirth, and giving, you know, this, quote, unquote, midwifery education back to, birthing people and families because it's theirs. It's not midwives. It's not doctors. I've, you know, I really want to have, like, someday when I have, like, my own little homestead thing going on, I wanna have, like, a free birth sanctuary where people can come have a space. And if they wanna bring a midwife for another, like, traditional birth attendant or not, that's up to them. But it's just an autonomous birthing space for them, and I get to nourish them with, like, traditional foods and support them however they want me to. That's kind of where I'm at as, like, being a midwife now. And really wanting to work with people, like, prenatally and preconception. And, so that it really shifted that whole, like, my whole career and everything. And as a mom, you know, it, it just kinda brought me full circle in like midwifing myself through all of these experiences. Yeah. And really like, which I actually wrote an article for the last edition of Squat Birth Journal called Midwifeing Myself, that has this whole kind of story woven into it. And it, you know, it realizing, you know, after her, I didn't have postpartum depression. I had this bond with her that I didn't have with my son. Like, really feeling physically, emotionally, spiritually, the impact in these different types of births. And and even leading up to her birth, I there was a friend of mine who is also a birth keeper that I had really wanted there for the birth. This is to be as, like, another birthing woman or, like, birth woman supporting me as a birthing woman, but also just to kinda, you know, like, keep an eye out and because she's also studied as a midwife. And and she ended up at the very last minute not being able to come. So it was kind of like this. I was like, you know, I don't need her there but I'd really like her to be there, you know, kind of thing. But I think really that, you know, I needed that for for it to just be us and to just be me. Because I I really was able to come into my full autonomy and sovereignty and Mhmm. You know, round the full circle, to reclaim all of the all of the different things that had been taken from me from all these other experiences.
Speaker 1
Beautifully said.
Speaker 2
So yeah.
Speaker 1
Powerful.
Speaker 2
But then also having, you know, the experience of, you know, in trying to finish my midwifery education, like, how my experience is shaping that and affecting preceptors who want to work with me or, you know, how I can work with them with that experience, has also been interesting to navigate.
Speaker 1
Because so many midwives are not supportive of autonomous birth.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. Basically anyone who's not trained through, like, the Matrona or IndiBirth.
Speaker 1
Right.
Speaker 2
I mean, of course, there are other, like, midwives out there and, I haven't met all of them for sure, but, I've definitely I've had two experiences where one midwife was like, you can work with me, but you under no circumstance can tell any of my clients that you've had a free birth or an unassisted birth because I don't want them to make a quote unquote unsafe decision.
Speaker 1
Like you did?
Speaker 2
I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. And then very recently had another midwife, who she was, like, you know, basically saying that she wouldn't have wanted she wasn't taking students, at the time, but she was, like, basically insinuating that she wouldn't have wanted to work with me because we have different philosophy about unassisted birth and free birth. That that is too big of a thing for her for it to eat for it because it wouldn't it would matter for her.
Speaker 1
And it's like Yeah. You don't but you don't you wouldn't want a preceptor like that if that is fundamentally true, then, you know, good riddance because you don't want to learn from somebody who believes that, you know, regulated midwifery with its serious limitations and interferences is the only way and is the safest way. You know? It's a it's a way, and I totally can honor that. But any you know, I mean, I've spoken to quite a few regulated midwives who very openly acknowledge the limitations of their license, and it hurts them. Mhmm. And it hurts Yep. You know, it it's not easy for them. They're very aware of, you know, the ways in which they cannot stand with women, and, you know, they still choose it because they feel like they can just do what they can, and and they'll serve as many women as they can that fit within the margins of the states, you know,
Speaker 2
you
Speaker 1
know, requirements. And, they have to feed their family, and it's too dangerous to be unregulated and you know they I get that you know I don't I don't think I could make that choice but I I get it. It's a lot to ask you know it's it's a lot for a woman in this society to be like no. I'm gonna stand with women, no matter what and it is risky and we have you know we we are in a society where it is risky to stand with women and to you know to put to put to put birth keeping first,
Speaker 2
you know,
Speaker 1
in the in because we know it's a witch hunt. We know midwives go to jail. We know that death can occur. And, you know, it's it's yeah. It's a modern day witch hunt as of course, you know.
Speaker 2
And I and I think that for me, both as a free birthing mom and as a birth keeper working with families is that no other person can take responsibility for the outcome of your birth. And one of the, like, teachings of my Mula Free School and, the Matrona and, all of that is that you cannot dictate the direction that someone else's life is going to take. You can't control what their transformation looks like. You know, you're going to go through life however you're gonna go through life. If you're meant to have a c section with that baby, then that's what's gonna that's, you know, you you're supposed to learn something from that or gain something from that in some way. Positive for some people, negative for some people, but
Speaker 1
because I I I would have to say my departure there happens in any sort of, any sort of implication of, like, providence, like, that there is some meant to, you know, it's because we have to be really careful with that language because then, you know, then the the raped woman or the woman who has obstetrical violence or the woman who, you know, was cut without consent, what she needed that? No. She didn't need that. She Right. Dealt with it and moved on because women are survivors but, and and I'm not saying in any way, shape, or form you were implying that, of course. But I think we have to be really, really careful with the language of the way that we kind of pacify hard experiences or or situations that shouldn't have fucking happened, like the mistreatment of your little baby or the, mistreatment of every woman, you know, in in obstetrics or or the c section unnecessary c sections. But but to your larger point, I I do agree with the larger point that you were making, you know, that we Yeah.
Speaker 2
Like like like, not so much, like, you know, divine providence or, you know, that you can't choose your own destiny or whatever. But also, a lot of people, you know, they don't consider, you know, what is the baby's path? Like, what is their destiny? What is, you know, what is their life experience supposed to be like? Or, you know, we we can't know that, like, and and that, I guess that's kind of like the point is that you can't know what another person's life path is.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I
Speaker 2
think that's true. Take responsibility for it.
Speaker 1
Totally. Oh, it's such a tricky vine.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Like in the same way of, you know, as a mom, like I'm taking responsibility for my birth, but at the same it's this, it's a paradox.
Speaker 1
Right. Exactly.
Speaker 2
That, you know, I'm taking responsibility for my birth. I'm not putting responsibility for it on a midwife or an obstetrician or a friend or whatever or on my husband. But at the same time, I am allowing space for another human being's destiny to unfold through my body. Mhmm. However, that's gonna look and that kind of comes back to the whole, you know, yeah, sometimes there are instances where a baby dies where something could have been done, but there's also a lot of instances where they there was nothing that could be done. Mhmm. And And it's more
Speaker 1
the social narrative that if you were at the hospital, they did everything and if you're at home, home,
Speaker 2
you're responsible. Like, yeah. But babies die in the hospital all the time. They just don't talk about it. And, you know, doctors don't go to jail for it but midwives do. So, you know, that was part of our thing with, you know, deciding, like, yeah, we're gonna do this. We're gonna have a free birth was whatever happens is gonna happen. Like, yeah, we're gonna do our best to make sure it's a good positive outcome And if we feel the need to, like, seek outside assistance, but at the same time with, like, boundaries, say, like, when I when I mentioned earlier before we started recording of, like, you know, what happens if I have another preterm birth? Well, at what point do we transfer? At what point do we stay home? And even when I was, like, well, if it's before thirty two weeks, we'll transfer, that the catch to that, the boundary was that they will not take my baby away from me in the hospital. So, like, those kinds of, like, you know, things like that.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Boundaries. Totally.
Speaker 2
And I think whether you're choosing to have a birth in a hospital or with a midwife at home or just by yourself in a field with a baby deer, like, that those are all things that you have to think about and really be like, no. Like, this is this is our birth, and this is, you know, we're not looking to put if something untoward happens, it's sometimes it is someone else's fault. I allow space for that. But also not being like, oh, well, it's their complete responsibility to
Speaker 1
make sure that it's something insane. That's a signal. That's not a real thing. And that's I mean And
Speaker 2
I know a lot of people who think that. Well, yeah. Whether consciously or unconsciously.
Speaker 1
It's the litigious society that we live in, you know, that that also says doctors are God. And so when there's a good outcome, they get praised, not the woman or the woman's body or the baby. And when there's a bad outcome, you know, it's a big deal. And it's yeah. They don't go to jail, but it's still a big deal. Like, there's still malpractice suits, and everything just gets settled out of court and and and be out outside of the public eye. But, you know, they're they're definitely there is no room in our society for doctors to make mistakes or acknowledge mistakes or, you know, I mean, hopefully, they're learning from their mistakes, but typically we see, more and more conservative higher intervention, response to, you know, to an OB that has a negative outcome. But again, it's not the the the larger commentary is that it's not the doctor, you know, if if a baby just dies, as as they do.
Speaker 2
You
Speaker 1
know, and and if it was just going to happen, you know, it it was gonna happen anywhere just like it does at home. Yeah. I mean, this is where the conversation to me gets really interesting because, you know, I feel like and, like, what you're saying is all we can do is learn ourselves and trust ourselves and create the safest environment that we as the mothers feel intuitively and that looks different to different women. You know we're obviously in communities where it's kind of obvious that that would be at home with minimal people and minimal outside intervention but you know everyone has their own calculations and yeah whether it's indoctrination or their their true intuition or whatever you know plenty of women choose the hospital and are evaluating you know, their risks that way. And the bottom line is to take responsibility for the decisions, but we can't we can't really take responsibility for the outcome of the baby's Mm-mm. Journey, which I think is what you're saying. Like, they have Yeah. You know, they speak to us and and however they do, and and our job is to birth in a way that feels intuitive to us because they are us. And beyond that, like, what will be will be. I mean, I I could not imagine birthing at a hospital with how intimately I know them just because of fear that something was gonna happen. But but at the same time, I'm thinking of a friend of mine right now who was planning a home birth and had some tests done and and and her baby's having some real health issues, it in utero. And it's looking extremely likely that she will need. You know postpartum support and that the baby will need extra care and so you know she's she's such a good example of someone who if it was just her making this decision on her own without keeping the baby in mind, she would be birthing at home. But of course, nobody does that. Of course, she's acknowledging the baby's journey and what the baby might need and trying to anticipate that accurately and she's having to really sacrifice part of what she would prefer her birthing experience to be and is going to birth in the hospital where it really does look like it will be safer for this baby and this is a pretty unique situation.
Speaker 2
Yeah,
Speaker 1
but it's it's an interesting other perspective, you know.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and and the just the depth of your stories and yeah it's it's, you know we we started this call before we were recording about how important it is to share all the stories not just the the pretty perfect empowering you know clean ones And you've really had a you've really you've really had a whole gamut of, you know, the yeah. Different experiences. And it's it's like you've lived a hundred lives in one life.
Speaker 2
Sometimes it feels like that, and it's really overwhelming.
Speaker 1
I bet. I bet. This I mean, to me, this is like the journey of the woman and the journey of the mother because in a way, it's not unique. You know, of course, your stories are super unique, but in a way, you know, it it's not. And I talk to women all the time who have just such a collection of trauma and abuse and powerful stories and reclaiming and, you know, the whole wheel.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I yeah. Thank you. And you're welcome. And and thank you for for holding this space and I know I get long winded and it's hard when you're like, yeah, I've been pregnant seven times, like, how do I shorten it?
Speaker 1
Right. How do you encapsulate that?
Speaker 2
You know, because it it's like you said, it's like it's the whole it's the whole picture, it's the whole wheel and so it's like, well, do I not share this part? This part's important. So it's like, you know, it's You just need
Speaker 1
to write a book.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and that's yeah. Basically.
Speaker 1
Alright, sister. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2
Thank you. That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
