Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldea.
Speaker 1
Today on the show, we have Sirgan Karkhalsa from Arizona, who after a home birth transfer with her first child, decided to free birth her second child with just her husband. After carrying past forty two weeks, her nervous midwife called nine one one towards the end of her labor, and Sirgan experienced a dramatic transfer resulting in unnecessary intervention and obstetrical abuse. Thankfully, following her intuition with her second pregnancy, she tells the story of her healing and powerful birth at home on her terms.
Speaker 2
My first birth experience with, my my four year old, he's four now, was that the experience was totally different from my last birth. I've had two, in that in just the way that it started because we weren't planning it. We thought we were being really careful not to have not to get pregnant. I was about a year into my marriage, a little less, and, we were both, I mean, we were both older. My husband's six years older than I am. I was twenty eight at the time. So it wasn't like a bad time to have children or, you know, it wasn't like we felt unprepared to do that, but it was just a surprise. And, and it actually, it's still super mysterious when the conception date was because when the conception time should have been, we were sleeping in separate beds working at a festival. So it's, it was, like, just super mysterious. Interesting. And, yeah, when I got home from the festival, I was used to being really tired after working there because it's super long hours and a lot of interaction with people, which is difficult for me, that much of it. And so I'm used to getting back and just kinda sleeping for a few days. Right? But it the tiredness did not seem to go away. And, and, you know, I'm here, I'm wondering. I'm like, gosh, do I have, like, some sort of flu or, you know, what's going on? Because I've never been pregnant, so I didn't know what that felt like. And, I wasn't really keeping, you know, super great tabs on my cycle or anything like that, because it had been a regular. And, anyway, I can't remember what kind of how it occurred to me to take a pregnancy test, but I just decided to get one and, you know, peed on the stick and whatever, and it came out negative. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, gosh. I ruled that out. Then I then I seemed to be getting, you know, a little bit nauseous. And so I was like, well, you know what? I'm just gonna go and see the OB, you know, the OB and and, get, like, a definitive test because, you know, you Google and it's like, yeah, pregnancy tests aren't always accurate or whatever. So, I go to an OBGYN back when I when I actually I thought that was a necessary component in women's health. And, I I, you know, I I peed in their cup and, you know, came back and said, you're pregnant. And right, like, right from the moment they said that, I was just ecstatic. Nice. It's so, it was
Speaker 1
because that can go either way.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was a surprise, but it was like such a, you know, just to know, first of all, I felt, you know, oh, yeah, I'm not, you know, I'm not ill. But, yeah, just to that was that was really exciting because I don't think otherwise, you know, I would have known when a good time to get pregnant was at that Yeah.
Speaker 1
Sometimes they have to decide.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So so yeah. And I think I'm not sure. It might have been the next checkup. It was either that one or that or the next one where they, like no. It was probably the next one where they just scheduled me for a sonogram. Right? And so I, you know, I did that, and I got the picture, and I thought it was so cute and whatever. And, anyway, when I went in for, that checkup with the sonogram, I remember the woman, she wasn't the OB G one. She was, like, the assistant. And I remember just getting, like, not a very, not a very good vibe for what I felt like was gonna be the continuation of that care. And, you know, she was talking about, like, the hospital birth and I can't remember the exact wording, you know, that kinda turned me off, but it was like, I don't, you know, I think I'm gonna I think I'm gonna Move along. Move along. So Yeah. And and a lot of people in my community. So I live right now I live in a in a Sikh community in, like a Kundalini yoga slash Sikh community in in Phoenix, Arizona. And and I didn't live actually physically in that community, like, neighborhood wise at the time. We were about fifteen, twenty minutes away in North Phoenix, but, but now I live I live, like, right here. That was another difference between the two births. It's just a different house and different community around me. But, a lot of people in the community, whether in Phoenix and just the greater worldwide community, it would have home births. That was really, really typical. Right? So and I had a friend whose mom was training to be a midwife, and I I asked her a bunch of questions like, you know, what what do you look for in a midwife and, you know, whatever. And the the first thing I remember her saying was, you know, make sure that she's, a registered or, gosh, what's the term?
Speaker 1
Licensed, regulated.
Speaker 2
I think. A licensed midwife. Right? So so, you know, so we looked at some hospitals and we looked at some, you know, birthing centers and we looked at we had a couple interviews. We had actually, like, I think five interviews with five different midwives. And I remember, like, all of them thinking, like, okay, I guess. You know, it was never I never fell in love, but I I I did this silly thing where I was like, when the baby kicks, that's the midwife. And and we actually found oh, you know what? I'm forgetting this part is that for a while, I didn't, like, I didn't actually look for a midwife. I was just going to, a midwifery care kind of, like, establishment. So instead of it being, like, an OB GYN's office, it was just a bunch of midwives, but they were you know, it was an office, and they took my experience and stuff. And they used to have a a birth center, but it got shut down. So it was gonna be a hospital birth with one of those midwives, but I didn't like the idea that it was gonna be, like, any one of their, you know, six staff members could be with me. Mhmm. And I would know which one. It was whichever one was gonna be on call. So that's what that's what drove me to to find, a, a, like, a home birth midwife. So anyway, when the baby kicked, it it landed on this woman, during her during her video with her interview with her. And, and she seemed nice and I liked her office and her husband did this kind of healing modality that I got for free, and, you know, that was, I thought that was a cool perk. And, it it seemed to be going fine. You know, she was really laid back. I was taking Bradley classes, which was, you know, somewhat informative, I guess, at the time. I think the general theme of this pregnancy was just, like, learning. I I didn't I hadn't done any research prior to getting into the pregnancy, so I didn't really know what what paradigm I wanted to be in.
Speaker 1
So much to learn.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I knew, you know, I knew enough that I didn't want to have a c section and I didn't want to, you know, have medication or or, you know, drugs to to stop the pain and stuff. And and I was really intrigued by the hypnosis hypno, hypnosis idea, like but I didn't end up taking those classes because my sister-in-law convinced me to take the Bradley anyway. Not that not that that was her fault. I just I I was like, okay. Yeah. Whatever. You've had two kids. I'll do that. Yeah. So, by the by the time I was like really pregnant and, and I'd only been with my midwife for a few months at that point because I like I said, we we found her kinda late. I think also, like, I didn't feel pregnant until I was really big because I just wasn't connected to that, you know, my body. And so once I could like actually looked pregnant and it took me a really long time because people kept commenting how small I was, which made me feel really like Yeah. Like not, you know, like I wasn't doing it right. So one thing is
Speaker 1
that I know. We can't win. It's either too small or too big.
Speaker 2
I know.
Speaker 1
No one's ever like, your belly's just quite right.
Speaker 2
Exactly. Yeah. But people, it's funny because I've heard like my my Bradley midwife, she she said, you know, when I've always been so big and I always think it's, like, a nice thing to say when I tell a woman that she's, you know, so small, but no, it it, like, it really did make me feel inadequate. Totally.
Speaker 1
Like, you're not growing well enough. Right. Right. So anyway,
Speaker 2
I by the time I was really pregnant and I felt like, oh, okay, now I can really start preparing for the birth, it was it was kinda late in the game. And and all I'd really learned was, like, you don't need meds and, you know, here's how to push. That that was kind of no. Because I mean, all the nutrition stuff like, Bradley was so much more prep, and I've always taken such good care of my body that it was, most of it was kinda silly for me. You know, like
Speaker 1
Or obvious.
Speaker 2
You know, all your your nutrients and stuff. I mean, that wasn't new to me for in pregnancy. It was always part of my life and taking care of myself. So, yes. So So take me yeah. Take me to the birth. Yeah. So so what what I I have to take you a little bit before because that's kind of what what went wrong. So I'm about forty one weeks, maybe forty one and a half, and my midwife is saying, oh, no, you know, we're getting to like forty, forty in a day, forty whatever. And my my midwife keeps mentioning like, okay, you know, if we go over, I I'm not quite sure what she's concerned about, but she keeps mentioning this possibility of, like, quote unquote going over and, you know, and and what could happen. And I think you should meet this hospital midwife just in case we get transferred and, you know, so I'm doing all this stuff because I'm listening to my health care provider like a good patient. Mhmm. And, at forty two weeks, I'm still not I'm still pregnant. So at that point, I'm getting I went to do the hospital, like, no stress test or whatever. Yeah. They checked the fluid and whatever. And I think I'd actually done it twice before the baby was born because she wanted me to do it every, like, two or three days, something like that. And, I mean, at this point, I'm because she's having me do all this stuff, it's kinda like a doctor prescribing medication to you. You assume that there's something wrong with you Mhmm.
Speaker 1
You
Speaker 2
know, because your doctor is concerned. Right? Or, you know, your my midwife was concerned. So I'm I'm thinking, like, my gosh, is my, you know, is my body gonna be able to birth? Am I, you know I mean, all these, like, stupid things are going through my head. Am I gonna be pregnant forever? Like, is this baby really gonna come out? At forty two weeks and I think it was either two or three days. Well, two at two days, I thought I was going into labor, and then it didn't end up being labor. And then three days, it was like, okay. This is definitely definitely happening. And my midwife came in the morning, and and I was, you know, I was I was relaxed and nice, and I I was playing my music and whatever. And I remember her saying about the music, she was like, are you gonna play this the whole time? And and I was like, why? And she goes oh I think it's gonna put you to sleep. And she was really concerned, yeah, she was really concerned that I was gonna get too relaxed.
Speaker 1
That's so weird.
Speaker 2
I know, I know. It's like that was so that was like number one what went wrong.
Speaker 1
You're like way to kick baby.
Speaker 2
Yeah. It was it was like because that that was when I envisioned my birth the soundtrack to it was I'm a musician. Right? So the soundtrack to it was number one on my list. I ended up changing it to some other it was mantra music. I ended up changing it to some other, like, really, like, kind of high more high energy mantra music, but I remember that really changing the Mhmm. Yeah. The energy of it. I had a birth tub. My husband, set it up. He's he, like, did a whole bunch of stuff while I was birthing. He changed how the refrigerator door opened. He doesn't like sitting around. So, but, yeah, she kind of she went and picked up her daughter, from school and whatever and was, you know I can kinda tell it was like, okay. This is gonna be a long you know, she's thinking, like, this is gonna be a long birth, so I'll, you know, I'll just get out of here and see if it progresses. And and the whole time she's, you know, doing paperwork and stuff, and I I remember that making me feel a little bit uncomfortable. By the time it was getting really intense, I remember I remember feeling like, oh, my god. What is going on? You know, it was like this this sense of panic, like I was being electrocuted or something, you know, and I was being repeatedly electrocuted, and I, like, in my thighs, it actually felt that way.
Speaker 1
And you were forty two and you were past forty two?
Speaker 2
Yeah, I was forty two. Forty two in three days by like the medical, you know, way it counts. And she
Speaker 1
was willing to stay with you?
Speaker 2
I can't remember what, what.
Speaker 1
She might have smudged the numbers or something.
Speaker 2
No. No. No. She actually this was and if I had known more, I would have helped her to do this, but she actually gave me the opportunity to do that, and I didn't get it because I'm such, like, an honest, you know, I'm I'm like the, you know, like, the teacher's pet that sits in the front row that used to, you know so, you know, when when somebody yeah. Like, like You were like, lie. Of course. I wouldn't do that. And why would I do that? You know? I I understand what the importance Totally. What the importance of doing that was. I've been like, yeah, who who cares when I got pregnant? Mhmm. Yeah. But I didn't at that time. And, I think the law in Arizona is that she could stay with me, but I had to okay it. Like, I had to understand that I had gone past my due date and that, you know, that it was risky. That, you know, that's that was the the thing. And and she she at that point was, like, super vigilant, had to be super vigilant because if anything went wrong, she would be in big trouble. You know? Mhmm. So she was she was under a lot of pressure because of what the because of the laws. So it was like we were yeah. It was it was a bad situation. And I wish she had also just been honest with me about, you know, this is what I'm dealing with. And, you know, I mean, I understand, like, midwives can get into some, you know, big legal trouble that doctors doctors can't. And and I I appreciate that, but I I wish I had known kind of what I was
Speaker 1
agreeing. Yeah. It's really crazy how not transparent regulated midwives are consistently.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I don't know what she thought. Maybe she I was also thinking to myself, you know, maybe she just thought like I have no other options and so she has to, you know, stay there with me or something. I just
Speaker 1
I'm not gonna transferred you to
Speaker 2
She could've transferred me to a hospital, for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1
But anyway, so, okay. So you're in labor. You're feeling like you're being electrocuted.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And she's crying out. She I remember the only thing she really said to me during the birth was, like, you know, make low sounds. Don't go so high, like, make the low because I was going like, you know? And, and, I'm I'm, like, right before transition at this point because I remember she asked me, Do you need to pee? I think she just kinda could feel where I was, and I I didn't know because I've never done it before. You know, going to the bathroom, because I said, yeah. Sure. I'll pee. She was like, why don't you just try? So I'm I'm trying to pee, and she's she's like she gets her assistant. I really liked her assistant a lot better than than her actually too. And, her she she put the you know, because she was checking me with the doppler the whole time, obviously, because she's a a licensed midwife. And, she was noticing some some heart decelerations while while I was transitioning on the toilet. And at this point, I could tell she was it went from, like, okay, laid back, I'm doing paperwork while she, you know, while she, goes through her labor to, like, high high emergency alert. And so she went and she got an oxygen tank, which ironically she had borrowed from another midwife that I interviewed, and it was empty. So, which I guess was kind of a blessing in disguise because I learned about oxygen later, but, you know, she didn't have the oxygen tank, so that must have freaked her out. And and then, I remember her telling her assistant to call an ambulance, or maybe it was when I was, you know, it gets a little fuzzy, but maybe it was when she got me on the bed. So after I was on the toilet in the bathroom, like, way on the other side of the house, we bring me to the other side of the house where our bedroom is, she has me lay on my back like hospital style you know and with my with my knees up and just like starts screaming push.
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2
Come on come on come on come on I remember and I remember inside me wanting to be like stop. Totally. Like like what what are you talking about? I didn't even understand what she what she meant because I didn't know what that physically kind of felt like in my body. Sure. What, you know, like, I understand what raise your arm feels like, but I didn't know what, you know, push a baby out felt like.
Speaker 1
I mean, yeah. And before you're ready, it's Right. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So
Speaker 2
at this point, I'm not sure, my husband knows the chronology of this better than I do, but to me it seemed like seconds later, like these five burly, you know, huge men come in, the paramedics, into my room, and suddenly it went from, you know, kind of quiet, even though it did accelerate a little bit, but in my mind it was like, okay, peaceful home birth to, you know, five men in my bedroom. Yeah. So so I at this point, I, you know, my head is kind of spinning because she's yelling, come on, come on, come on. You know, she's thinking, like, if we can get this baby out before the paramedics come, then, you know, we don't have to deal with this. Oh my. Even though I called them. And, I I remember at this point just I think it was the realization when I was like when the men when the paramedics came in, I was like, this is ruined. This is this is done. Done. You know? I give up. I I can't do this, I guess. You know? And so so I really, like, you know, even though it might sound like I I blame my my midwife, I really don't. I it was totally like an internal an internal thing that happened with me that really made this birth, like, not not the way that I wanted it to go.
Speaker 1
So And it's really hard in the in the in the actual experience of it. And and and for a long time afterwards, I think it's really hard to see kind of the forest from the trees there that she created an emergency based on the rules and regulations that handicap her, the fear that she has around birth, the all the pressures around you being past forty two. Like, it's not like it's about somebody's fault. It's a complicated situation.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And I was I I mean, going in my head too was, like, the fear that my there was something wrong with my baby. Of course. Oh my gosh. You know? Because she she's mentioning, like, maybe there's a cord wrapped around its neck or, you know, maybe, you know, what whatever it was. So at so at this point and my my husband's whispering in my ear. I remember it was so sweet. He's like, you can still do this. You don't have to go. And and, and I was like, no. It's just it's done. Like, I I was just too scared that there was something wrong with the baby that really that really got me. So, you know, they the paramedics are there. They get into the they are in the ambulance. My my husband is, like, the sweetest, most pushy person in an emergency because they were like, you have to go you have to drive in a car. You can't come in the ambulance. He's like, no way. No. I am not leaving her with you guys. You know, either I come or we're not we're not going. So and I can't remember the you know, what he said exactly, but he got himself in the ambulance. So he he's there in the ambulance, and they're telling me not to push.
Speaker 1
Oh my God.
Speaker 2
Like I'm pushing, pushing, pushing at this point. Like I can feel the baby, you know, wanting to come out and I'm supposed to like hold it in. It's terrible. That was the most painful part of the birth. And and all the while the paramedics, like, they were so sweet. They're trying to tell me jokes. I'm like, are you serious? So they they get me in, they wheel me into the ER, right, that's the first place I go to. They determine that the baby is not in distress, so they get me up to the maternity ward. At this point, I think it was like five minutes later the baby, you know, was coming out. But the doctor, just, like, sliced me open, you know, just, like, gave me the episiotomy. It was, like, didn't even ask. It was, like, you know, we gotta get this baby out. I remember at that point, I was so, I felt so defeated Yeah. That it was like everything else that I had wanted for that birth, I just was like, whatever. It doesn't even matter. You know? I'd wanted to hold the baby, you know, first thing. I'd wanted to
Speaker 1
That's like shutdown.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I was just I could tell. It was like it was the beginning what I what I know, you know, in in retrospect, it was like the beginning of of a postpartum depression that lasted for about two years. It wasn't severe, but it was like, it was definitely, a part of my life. And my, you know, so my husband's still still, like, rallying for me, you know, and he's like, don't, you know, don't take the baby. Do, you know, do you have to do you have to cut the cord right now? Like, what are you doing? You know, and and Gandhi's oh, no. Actually, she, the doctor the doctor was doctor Gandhi. The, my my husband asked her. She was like he was like, can we can we not cut the cord right now? Can we just let it go out? And she looked at him. I remember the look too and, you know, it like, when you're when you're in labor, I'm caught I was cognizant of things, but I couldn't really act on them because I could tell she was she looked at him like, if you made more of a case for this, I think I would not cut the cord. But you're asking me as a question, so I'm just gonna make that call. And so, you know, she sliced it. And, and then, you know, they gave you the baby for, like the baby. They gave me a right answer for a few seconds, it seemed like, and then took him to be weighed and whatever. And my husband, like, the whole time is, like, keeping his hand on him and, you know, going going over there to the scale and whatever else they felt they needed to do. And then when the baby came to me, I just I remember, like, my second sort of, like, just utter sadness. Yeah. Feeling like this should feel different. Mhmm. That I'm I thought I was supposed to feel ecstatic. I thought I was supposed to be excited about my baby being here. All I feel is like I've been, you know, raped, basically. And then everything after that was actually really pleasant. The nurses were super sweet. My husband told them about this practice that we do, after the baby's born, what we call the forty days, which is I know a lot of cultures do, like, a six week two days shy of six weeks kind of incubation period for the mom and the the baby where we don't go anywhere and we just, you know, bond and people bring us food and stuff like that. So we wanted to start that, but they they wouldn't release us like we were prisoners. They wouldn't release us until the, the pediatrician could, you know, make sure the baby was okay. So he was like, he so my husband made sure that we had, at least a room where no nurses were coming in and out of, and they put us at, like, the if you mentioned, like, religious beliefs, I feel like people take it really seriously. Oh, yeah. So, so we we were at the end of the corridor. There was one nurse that was allowed to come in, but anybody else had to clear it with her first, and she would ask us before anybody else came in. So it yeah. So it was it was nice. And, you know, it was at that point, because so much had gone wrong, I really didn't wanna go home. I really didn't wanna sleep in the bed that I had been, you know, laboring in. So then my husband went back to the house and cleaned everything up and got his foot.
Speaker 1
He's so good. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Because he knew if I went back and the pool was still up and stuff, it would just so hard. And I also needed clothes because I went in my I was naked. So when we went, I think maybe at the point when I got in the ambulance, I was wearing, like, a long shirt or something, but that was because my midwife put it on me right before I got in. So so, yeah, that was that was my first birth. And for the longest time afterwards, I remember thinking thank God she was there because because what if I had, you know, what if I had been I don't even know what the other scenario would have been, but, you know, there there could have been something wrong with my baby and if she hadn't made that call then, you know, imagine what could have happened. I mean, I was I I probably would have stayed in that state forever. I prob that probably would have been my story about that forever if I hadn't done more research and wanted a different experience the next time. So In
Speaker 1
that intersection right there, like, the the majority of people do choose to stay in that space because it is easier to not question and do the work on it and research and, you know, to to be willing to create a departure of trust from the providers who ultimately caused the trauma and, you know, fake emergencies
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 1
Is really deep work that often can be quite painful, ultimately very liberating. But
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's a Yeah.
Speaker 2
You have to wanna go there. Mhmm.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I did. I wanted a different experience. And part of the reason for me so for a long time, I didn't want any more children because I was like, I can't I don't wanna do that again. And also because because the birth experience was so traumatic for me and for and for my son, because when you think about it, he was his he was stuck inside me for over a half an hour, like, in the birth canal, you know, because of that ambulance ride. And I I can see it in his personality, you know, just, like, when he was when he was born, he was so upset he didn't wanna be swaddled. He, you know, he he, like, he didn't want to be constrained ever. And I, you know, I can't say for sure that that wouldn't have been part of his personality before, but I really feel that it had something to do with the way he came into the world.
Speaker 1
Sure.
Speaker 2
So yeah, when, actually, part of my healing process, this is funny, was watching the Duggars. I don't know if you've ever seen that show.
Speaker 1
I don't know if that's
Speaker 2
It's like twenty I don't know what they got up to. I mean, nineteen kids and counting. It started as like sixteen kids or whatever. But I'm I'm I was was watching this show of like because I'd always wanted a really big family, you know, but I didn't know what people had to go through to get there. Yeah. And And so anyway, I watched the show and I was like, it would be really nice to have more kids. So, the next conception was a conscious one and we
Speaker 1
And how many years after?
Speaker 2
Conception, two. But yeah.
Speaker 1
And you felt ready?
Speaker 2
Yeah. I felt ready. My my first son was sleeping through the night at that point, and he was mostly out of diapers. And, yeah, I felt like I wanted to bring someone else into our family. And I felt like there was somebody. So this is from from, like, on a spiritual level, I guess. When when the when the pregnancy happened, both my son and my my son both my husband and I really felt like we were having a girl. And somewhere in the middle of the pregnancy, we were like, wow. It it changed. It's yeah. It's a different it's somebody different. So I felt like there was still somebody that wanted to come. I still feel like there's somebody there's another one that wants to come. Yeah. Yeah. We'll we'll see. My husband might not be ready for that one. But but yeah. Anyway, so I felt like there was there was another soul that wanted to to come into our family. And so we we tried for a while. I had to make some adjustments to my to my diet, which ironically was kind of more of a return to how I was eating before I was married. But what was I wasn't eating very well after pregnancy, and, and it was and I was kind of all over the place with my like, trying trying stuff and whatever, and maybe if I do this, I'll feel more energetic and whatever because I was really lethargic in the first in the first year of of a renter's life. So, anyway, I I changed a few things in my diet, and I was eating a lot more fresh food and stuff like that. And and, a nutritionist helped me. And we so we we, we conceived, and we we were really excited. And in, in the this is more of like a Kundalini yoga thing. We keep it a secret. We're supposed to keep it a secret for the first a hundred and twenty days after conception, which I was so excited about being pregnant the first time I didn't do. And then the second time around, I really did try, but because I had already been pregnant once it was it was so obvious.
Speaker 1
Well, I've always I know about the one hundred and twenty like when that that's when the soul comes in and all that stuff but I had never heard that you were supposed to keep it a secret.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So it's it the idea is that that's kind of the time period where if something were gonna happen, most likely it would, you know, if the pregnancy were to end, that's kind of the the window. And the other thing is just that it's kind of like this sweet little secret between you and your baby and your you know, and the father and, yeah. So it you know, peep people definitely do it, and I I tried, but I remember at some point maybe in like the it was pretty close, but my my friend, like, my friend just blurted out. She's like, congratulations. And I got so alarmed because I wasn't, you know, super self aware that I was showing. I was like, who told you? I was just like, I'm an architect. I notice I notice how things
Speaker 1
And you pop sooner
Speaker 2
with a
Speaker 1
second. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And I I was wearing I always wear kinda flowy clothing anyway, but, yeah, it was it was pretty obvious.
Speaker 1
So anyway What at what point in this process did you start to think, I'm not gonna go back to that midwife and wait a minute, I'll even go a step further and do this myself?
Speaker 2
Yeah. So when when I was and I had an inkling that I was pregnant was at this festival we go to in New Mexico, summer solstice, and I was, I had just missed my period and and since having my first baby, my my cycle was more regular, so I noticed, and I was thinking, oh my gosh, I could be pregnant, I could be pregnant, this is so exciting, and towards the end of the festival, I was I was feeling more tired and, I started, like, not wanting to eat the food that I brought for myself because I brought myself special food. And, you know, I was noticing, I was like, Yeah, my body is kinda, you know, kinda different. And on the way home, even before I, quote unquote, knew I was pregnant, I I asked my husband, I was like, how would you feel about just doing it, the two of us? You know, just doing the birth of two of us. And it was kind of like a you know, my husband and I talk about possibilities all the time and, you know, we don't always do them. So it it wasn't it wasn't like I definitively decided at that moment, but I had that idea then. And when I got home, I was I was still in the mindset of like I need I need you know proof so I immediately when we when we drove home because he didn't want to you know we were camping and stuff he didn't want to deal with going to another, like, a clinic while we were in New Mexico and whatever. So I waited till we got back, and I went to, to a little, like, midwifery clinic thing, and and, it was positive. And I was pregnant. I was so excited. And, at that point, I wasn't really I wasn't really thinking about how I was gonna do it because I knew I had some time. Mhmm. But when we did start talking about it, we were thinking, like, we were thinking because I hadn't learned what I then began to learn was, you know, it ended up at the hospital anyway. It ended up costing us so much money to pay that midwife to make a phone call, you know, because we paid out of pocket for the the midwifery, for the the licensed midwife and then ended up using our insurance, you know, for the hospital anyway. So it was like, why don't we just go to the hospital first thing? Mhmm. They'll they'll pay for it, and we don't have to worry about wasting money, wasting money, you know, on that. Because what if it happens again? What if I go forty two, you know, what if that's just the way I gestate and I, you know, go forty two weeks every time? But that's actually so that thought was actually what got me thinking about alternative solutions because whenever we we went to, a really beautiful looking, birth center and we interviewed this really cool home birth midwife, that I had a recommendation from a friend a friend about, you know, and she was really it was really sweet and great. And, I did vibe with her. She was also a licensed midwife. It was always, like, the question was, like, what happens if I go for forty two weeks? Yeah. You know? Or or, like, here's what happened the first time. How would you have handled this? And I remember the the birth center saying the birth center, we were in, like, an orientation meeting, the woman being, like, well, that's yeah. That's probably how it would have gone down here too. You know? And so at this point, I'm, like, well, gosh. I don't I don't like any of these options. These are you know, I'm gonna I don't wanna put myself through that again knowingly. So it was a full moon one night. I was laying in bed, and I couldn't sleep, which often happens on the full moon. And I I just got up and was like, I wonder if people give birth by themselves and just don't even deal with the medical community. And I came across the IndieBirth website and, and another website was like this family. They had their own website about unassisted birth. I can't remember which it was. But I watched some videos, and they were talking about how how much less painful it was and how amazing it it is to, you know, just have that connection right from the the start of not having anybody else holding your baby or telling you what to do. Or and I was, I was like, I had a lot of questions because, you know, I I did believe the first time that it was a medical, you know, event, that needed somebody there to support. So I I can't remember. Oh, my next step was I just started listening to all of Maren's podcasts, the indie birth. What's it called? Taking Back Birth. Taking Back Birth. Thank you. Yeah. So I just every day while I was doing dishes, I would be you know, if I was in the kitchen or if I was doing something that didn't require me being attentive to my son, then I would be listening to her podcast. And I started learning a ton of stuff I didn't know. And at this point, I realized what had happened the first time because the first the first podcast that I listened to of, of hers was why she quit being a licensed midwife. Mhmm. And I just had this epiphany, like, oh my gosh. This was not, like, this was not what I thought it was. This, you know, and it completely re I, like, saw the the event in a completely new light, and it made a lot of sense how I could avoid it. So so the the next after that full moon, I kind of went forward in time, but I think I might have listened to that midwifery, that one midwifery podcast that night. The next morning, I I told my husband, I was like, I wanna do this. I wanna do this alone. This this makes the most sense to me because, and and, you know, he knows me. I do all of my best work alone. I'm a I'm a super private, independent kind of worker. I I collaborate well with others, but when it comes to, like, being creative and, you know, getting my ideas and my my my flow going, I don't like people observing me in that process.
Speaker 1
Well, Anne, as you're starting to identify why all this horrible stuff went down in your birth, you can start to separate it and be like, wait a minute. It's actually safer to not involve other people.
Speaker 2
Right. Right. Well and that that that realization came a little later. You know, it was kind of like in layers. It was but I remember the first thing occurring to me was I really should do things the way I feel most comfortable doing them. It doesn't make sense to, you know, do things the way somebody else feels comfortable with them. So that a friend of mine recently asked me because she's she's pregnant and she's thinking about maybe doing a free birth for her next pregnancy. She's not quite comfortable with the idea yet now. She was like, you know, I was just telling her that that's not that's not necessarily why everybody chooses to free birth. But for me, that was I think that was the most, you know, the biggest reason for me was was just the the freedom of being able to be alone. Yeah. So so yeah. It was really because of that decision, I felt super empowered. I finally understood why women use that word about pregnancy and birth.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
Seemed like kind of a ruse after my first time. I was like, I don't get it. But, yeah, the the prenatal period was really sweet and I just, you know, like, really fed myself well and, I think also part of it was that I knew how to eat to be being pregnant, you know, because coming out of being, a normal or a non pregnant woman, I guess, yeah, I was eating three meals a day, you know, and it was really kind of a crazy adjustment to eating all these snacks and things between between meals. I I really never got used to it, my first pregnancy. But second time around, I was, you know, I was lactating the my whole pregnancy anyway, but I had been nursing my son. So I was used to, you know, eating frequently and to, you know, drinking a lot of water and doing other stuff. So it it seemed a lot like, I figured it out. I was like, I don't really need any coaching on this because I I know what my body is like doing this now. And, I did a lot of meditation and a lot of yoga, things that I was kind of afraid to do the first time because I didn't really trust my body could make a baby the first time, as silly as that sounds. I was like, I was afraid that if I, you know, did too much physical activity or and this wasn't this wasn't, like, anything I was hearing from anybody else. It was just kind of a a quirk within myself that, that I could somehow, like, mess things up. You know? So I didn't have that the second time around, and I stayed I stayed so healthy. I felt amazing. The first trimester was also not as bad. I remember having some, you know, some, like, food aversions and smells from the refrigerator were not so fun, but I wasn't nauseous or throwing up or anything like that. And, yeah. So it was it was a different experience. It was a different experience all the way around. And I was carrying a different baby too, so it was, you know so when the birth came around, it was funny because I had been so healthy the entire pregnancy, and right when I went into labor, which didn't end up being my actual labor, but it was on the night of leap year, I think, or the night before, the leap year of, like, the end of February. And so I was thinking, like, oh, this is gonna be a leap year, baby. This is so exciting. I I caught the flu from my husband. And and I could feel like it just kinda taking over my body as I'm going through these contractions and going, oh, my gosh. I don't like, my husband was so he was so sick and tired because he'd been sick for a few days. And and I remember being kind of scared, like, okay, my husband is my whole team, and he can't even, like, you know, sit up for long periods of time. So thankfully, the contractions stopped and we went to bed. And about a week later, I was still sick but he wasn't. I I went into actual labor. And by this point, my my oldest son was, sick as well. So we were, like, my husband had been my husband had recovered mostly. My son had a really high temperature, and I was kind of, like, on the down the down part of the sickness, but still, like, coughing and stuff. So my my sister-in-law came and took my son and took him to urgent care, and we didn't end up seeing him for another three days because we just felt like, we found out he had the flu, and I I was nervous about having him around a newborn. Yeah. So so he stayed there, and my my friend came and, like, helped my husband just clear the house of all germs and, you know, as much as we could, like cleaning linens and putting pillows out in the sun and stuff like that. And, I'm not sure how much of this is actually necessary because one of the doctors, that looked at my son later was like, you know, the baby basically had, you know, had, was had access to that, you know, that flu inside you, so it'll probably come out immune. But anyway, so we, the the the birth actually looked almost identical to the first time in terms of how it progressed. It started in the morning and it was really kind of like sweet and lovely and, you know, began and I remember feeling a lot more relaxed and, my husband set up another birth tub and I, as the, you know, as the projections sort of were getting a little bit more intense, I went into the bathtub and was like just singing to myself and pouring water on my belly and, was just really sweet. And then it, you know, progressed a little more and it got more intense and I figured out that if I held on to the shower bar where the curtain was and kind of let my body hang there as if like something were falling out of me, it felt really good and helped my muscles relax through through the, you know, expansions. And so my husband rigged this pull he had this push up bar, and he he tied this baby sling that I made to it, which is this long piece of fabric, like, kind of like those traditional traditional, like, long piece of fabric slings. He did it kind of, like, like so that it could act as a rope, but also like a hammock that I could kind of lean on when I didn't, you know? Yeah. So not that I was completely, reclined in it, but I could kind of tilt back and it would support me a little bit. So so that was really nice and I remember just feeling like wow yeah so if I had relaxed more through this the first time around it wouldn't have felt like electric shocks and yeah. So that that was that was really nice, and I just felt so free. Like, I was scream you know, I was just, like, groaning and making all these animal noises that if somebody had been there, I probably wouldn't have, just because of my personality, and I knew that about myself. So we moved, I moved again back to the birth tub, and it was it was not the temperature I wanted it, but it was okay. I got back in it. And at this point, I my husband could tell it was, you know, it was, like, imminent. But I went I went through this kind of mental doubt, and I was like, I don't think this baby's coming, you know, and this baby and then and then he's, you know, just kinda looking at me, and I and I went, no. This baby has to come. All babies come. All babies come. You know, I'm just talking to myself. And and I had made these, I made in that room, I made all these, like, little, positive affirmation things to read, but I don't remember reading any of them. But they were there, helping me through it. And so I moved there's, like, a bathroom off of that room, and I moved, and I was like, I guess I gotta get out of the water. And I knew both times too, that I wouldn't wanna deliver in the water. I I liked, laboring in it, but I did not I did not want my baby coming out in the water for some reason. So I got out and I'm like, oh, oh, and this was so exciting. I well, I think while I was in the water or maybe when I was getting out, I reached inside and I I could I like felt something squishy. And and at the time I was like, that's a really squishy head. But it, you know, it was the sack and with my first son too, so it was like it's so similar. With my first son too, his water didn't break and I think the midwife ended up breaking it until she was yelling push, push, push, push. You know? So so, yeah, I'm I'm in the bathroom, and I'm I'm kneeling on one I'm kinda squatting and also kneeling. I'm doing, like, a half thing. And I'm I'm feeling for, you know, where the baby where the baby's, I think, head is. And I I remember just feeling like, oh, like, kind of just this drop and it just the whole, oh, oh no, I reached in and I tore the sack, I remember, I remember doing that, I was just like, I need to, this needs to get done. And after that the baby just slid out, I caught him, I didn't know he was a him at this point because like I had said before we thought he was a girl the whole time I was pregnant maybe I didn't say that but we did and and I'm holding the baby and I'm like just so proud of myself I'm going I'm I'm like yelling like I did it, I did it, I did it. And then and then I was, you know, I was like okay I have to give credit to you too, like we did it. You know, baby you you did a lot of work too, but I was I was just so so, like, victorious feeling. I felt like I had, oh, just done it and completed it and, you know, it's just this beautiful full circle that, was amazing. And, it took a little while for me to realize that I didn't know what the sex of the baby was, for sure. So I, you know, I looked down and I just started laughing because I there was it was such a shock like, another boy that's so funny plus he looked exactly like my first film. A little repeat. Exactly, I was like oh my gosh Same human. So, yeah, that was that was, bad. And I I held him, and I kept holding him, and I never let him go. And we we laid down in bed together, and I, delivered the placenta. And my husband, went to the kitchen and chopped up little pieces and put it in the freezer for me, which I ended up taking. And, yeah.
Speaker 1
Feel in the coming weeks?
Speaker 2
I felt great. I felt really, really great. My my son slept so well. It was alarming. He he slept, I think that first night and the nights to come, you know, in like five, six hour chunks, which I thought was like just kind of crazy for a newborn. And, and he up until the point where he started teething at around that was August, like, maybe six months, he was the most angelic, like, fuss less baby.
Speaker 1
Like, until he started teething.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And then yeah. And then he, you know, and then he was human. Yeah.
Speaker 1
And your body felt good afterwards?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, it still feels raw. You you know, it's a big a big physical thing that you go to. So, you know, it definitely had some healing ahead of me.
Speaker 1
How did your community respond to this choice? Was there any sort of was there anything other than support?
Speaker 2
I kept this very secret. I kept it a secret because, like I've mentioned, I'm a pretty private person. I felt that I really didn't wanna get into discussions about it before I had an experience of it with other people.
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's smart.
Speaker 2
I really didn't feel like I could,
Speaker 1
Like, defend it.
Speaker 2
I really feel like I could defend it until I did it, you know. So I did tell a few people though that I trusted, and, they were supportive, but, you know, supportive because I was an adult and, you know, like, it's your choice. Not supportive in the sense of, like, wow, that sounds like such an awesome idea. Mhmm. I had a my neighbor across the street who's who's actually never had any children. She's she's so sweet, but she was, like, really concerned about me because my husband ended up my husband told her, and I can't remember how that came up. But when he did, I was like, why did you tell him?
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Tell but yeah. So they were praying, like, the whole time, her and her husband. And when I told when I told them a little later that we thought maybe we were just gonna have two kids, she she said, oh, thank god. I don't think I could go through that again.
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, the majority of people have been brainwashed to believe that it is, you know, a medical event that borders on emergency, you you know, at any given random time.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. And this is this is people who basically expect you to have a home birth. I think most people view it as a change of location and not necessarily a change of paradigm, you know, so it's it's nicer to be at home than in a hospital. Mhmm. But you want the same stuff. Right.
Speaker 1
You're still gonna get the ultrasounds and the tests and the routine stuff. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. So interesting.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Wow. What a wild ride you went on.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I feel it's it's funny, but I think I had I also had to have a second child just so that I could
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2
Do it again.
Speaker 1
Mhmm. I'm so healing.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
Yeah. To get to see, like, what birth really can be and not have it taken away from you. Mhmm.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And I
Speaker 1
And that's a big part, I think, of the healing to be able to be, like, that happened to me. That wasn't that wasn't, like, me and my boy causing that. That happened to me, you know, which is painful in some ways because it's such a betrayal of perhaps the team or the system or whatever, but I it seems like such an important part to be able to identify.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. I I also I feel really blessed that it happened that way the first time, because I you know, when you say, like, it happened to me, it also, I believe we really create our own reality and I, I must have needed that in order to have the experience that then followed because I don't think I would have known to go that quote unquote extreme away from the norm if I hadn't had that very extreme kind of, you know, what could go wrong with with that thing because a lot of my friends home birth, or have home birth, and nothing really so bad happened. Totally. I mean,
Speaker 1
yeah, if you had had, like, a within the margins, quote, unquote, normal home birth experience, then you probably just would have hired her again, which would have been fine. You probably would have had another, quote, unquote, normal experience.
Speaker 2
Right. Yeah. But I'm so grateful that I got the opportunity to feel, like you said, like what what it can really be like.
Speaker 1
Mhmm. Yeah. It's pretty unmatched. Mhmm.
Speaker 2
It
Speaker 1
just, like, I mean, on the it's such a deeply personal and spiritual experience, but also, like, on the whole that you can know that everything we've ever learned and heard about birth and our bodies and, you know, to to not trust it and to put, you know, put, what's the right word? You know, not not just trust, but, like, blind trust into a system and other people that somehow they're gonna know better than you. Mhmm. You know? And then your postpartum both your postpartum experiences really speak to, you know, what happens in your birth when you feel when you are mistreated and disempowered versus feeling your own agency and making your own decisions.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. Yeah. Recovery time was way shortened.
Speaker 1
Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 2
Thanks, God.
Speaker 1
Because not as much to recover from.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And you got another kid for sure. Yeah. Oh, well, thank you so much for sharing all the stories.
Speaker 2
Really Yeah. Thank you for asking me.
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's, did you get to sing at all in your second birth?
Speaker 2
Yeah. When I was in the bathtub, I was singing and I felt good. Yeah. Awesome.
Speaker 1
Alright. Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you, Emily.
Speaker 1
That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
