Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldea.
Speaker 1
We have a special episode this week on discussing the experience of and then the healing of birth trauma. As we know far too well, women across the globe are routinely victimized by normalized obstetrical violence and left traumatized from the many ways in which they and their babies were harmed in the system. I am joined today by Diana who experienced the unnecessary yet systemic cascade of interventions in her home birth transfer resulting in both a surgical birth she knew she didn't need and soaked in trauma with a deep fear of ever having a second child. Surprised by an unplanned pregnancy, Diana faced her trauma, took her healing into her own hands and birthed in power. If the way you were treated in your birth experience has left you feeling traumatized, this episode is for you. We are here for you. We see you. You are not alone, and you are certainly not broken.
Speaker 2
My first birth was a totally shattering experience. I was a person who came to my first birth, really trusting birth, really not afraid of the experience. I really, I understood that, you know, in our culture we tend to look at birth as a means to an end to have a baby and it's expected to be, you know, challenging, have some degree of trauma or suffering to it, but I never really felt that. I always kind of knew from the beginning that birth in and of itself is an amazing experience that I really wanted to have. So that's how I approached my first birth. And, I to make a long story short, I had a planned home birth with a midwife. And we, ended up transferring after a very long labor. And unlike you, I didn't untransfer myself. And what proceeded to happen at the hospital was just a nightmare of interventions that were completely unnecessary. My water was broken. I was given an epidural. I was given Pitocin, and I wasn't given the opportunity to consent to anything that happened to me at all. I mean, I signed a paper. Yeah. But that's not what consent is at all. You understand? Yeah. And it was just the perfect cascade of interventions that led into a emergency C section to save the baby who was having, heart deceleration due to the Pitocin. And I wasn't even told this actually during the process, but I figured it out later from looking at our medical records that that's, what had happened. The surgery itself was really traumatic, really scary. I ended up losing consciousness at the end of the surgery, and I don't know if it's because I I lost a lot of blood or if it's because of they over medicated me or something. So, I get teary just just thinking about this. I don't even remember the first time that I held my son. I just that time was totally stolen from me. And, you know, it was five and a half years ago, and I still can't really talk about it with feeling emotional. Everything about our postpartum was hard. Everything. Breastfeeding was so hard. My body was, like, remembered the trauma of this experience, and it didn't really want to produce milk. It didn't really want to heal. And I was spiritually really shattered. You know, like I said to you at the beginning, I understood how important birth was. I don't know where I got that knowing, you know, I was born in a very conventional way in a hospital. I had very pretty conventional upbringing, but I understood how important birth was as a rite of passage. And I felt like, what happened? Like, how could I how could I come to birth knowing this and then let this happen to me? How did it even happen? I was just shattered, totally shattered. So that's my that's the story of my first son's birth. And I think, you know, my where I'd like to go with this is sort of talk about birth trauma as a whole and how I healed from it. So yeah. Do you do do you have any questions about that experience?
Speaker 1
I've I've two questions. So just to take it right there, would you say that today, five plus years later, would you say that you feel complete and healed and whole? Is that is that real? That that is something that you can feel and be after after that experience?
Speaker 2
That's a great question. I can say the the part of the trauma that made me feel that I was not whole and that I I was broken and that this essential function that my body was supposed to do couldn't do for some reason, that piece of it is definitely healed. And that simply well, you know, I went on to have a very beautiful healing second birth and that went a very, very, very long way in healing that part of the trauma. What I feel mostly now is just sad when I think about it. I feel really sad. I would say that I'm pretty healed, as healed as you can be from something that shapes you that deeply And now I'm just left with sadness both for myself and for my son.
Speaker 1
Mhmm. Yeah. And I think But it's not a I think Go ahead. It's a yeah. Just a good point that feeling whole again and feeling like there are pieces that because you've dissected them and accepted them and, you know, did something different next time and, you know, all all of the different things that have led you to feel healed. And there can still and probably always will be a great deal of sadness of the reality of what did happen. And so healing doesn't equate erasing or forgetting or, pretending like it didn't happen. It's actually this deep and painful embracing of looking at it and turning it over and and and letting it really integrate and then seeing what you can do about it and how you can accept it. And that doesn't mean love it. That doesn't mean reframe it. Yeah. Right? And we're gonna get so deep into this with with how birth culture, you know, and and culture, how the patriarchal model tells women, reframe, forget, press you know, suppress, focus elsewhere, etcetera. But that is not healing. And so the the path to healing is often, quite quite painful to look at and sit with. But, on the other side, you know and and you could speak to this particularly with Bertram and more than I can, but on the other side is a level of freedom and acceptance, you know, that you you have to go through, the murky waters to get there.
Speaker 2
Totally. Yeah. And, you know, the one piece that I always had that I to this puzzle that I I don't know that everybody comes to is that, like, I knew right away, like, what had happened to me. Like, I called it what it was. I called it trauma. I called it abuse. And I even called it rape because honestly, parts of that birth felt like rape. And in being able to actually say speak truthfully and use words that have meaning about what actually happened to me and my son, you know, as opposed to saying, well, this had to happen to save the baby or, you know, something was wrong and thank God for modern medicine. And, because I was able to actually call it what it was, that really was the first step to actually being able to heal it. You know, if you can't if you can't if you can't say what it is and recognize it, then you can't heal it.
Speaker 1
And I think it's important to just insert here for anyone listening that if you had a transfer or an induction that ended in an emergency c section, we are not saying that your experience was also the same words. You know, trauma does not necessarily psychologically manifest in every c section. You know, I think that Mhmm. I think that the obstetrical model is inherently violent and it and is inherently traumatic to the body. Mhmm. But but we're not trying to to say that, you know, every single woman is experiencing birth rape psychologically. I think there is a platform to have that conversation that, you know, the mass internal exams and instruments that are almost always done without full consent. Know? And then there's a deeper question of, can we even really consent in a paradigm of authority? And, you know, when it's not like you know? This we could go down a whole another path with this. But, you know, these are big words, and these are this is a really, really deep talk topic. And, you know, as we mentioned before we were recording that, so many women come to birthing outside the system because they were first violated by the system. And so this is a very heavy and and rampant, you know, topic, and not everybody, has come to terms yet with their trauma. And what I guess I originally wanted to say was not everyone experienced their for their hospital birth as trauma. And so, you know, take take that for what it is. I just wanted to make sure we kind of made that disclaimer that we're not saying that everybody who has this similar tale, experienced it as such, but rather if you did experience it as as such, this episode is an offering to you as permission to stand in your story today as you listen to this and permission to fully embrace the trauma that perhaps hasn't been validated for you. And we're we're doing that today virtually as a as a global circle to to hear Diana's story and to know how painfully common it is and how often it is not validated to be the birth rape or the stolen experience, that that Diana experienced it as and that many, many, many women we work with do.
Speaker 2
Yeah, thank you for that disclaimer You're absolutely right there's a really great book called How to Heal a Bad Birth Maybe you've heard of it it's it's kind of geared towards people that are in the in in birth work working with women who've experienced birth trauma. And one of the things that that is talked about a lot in that book is that the actual outcome of the birth, like meaning like a c section versus a vaginal birth, tends to have less of an impact on if if it's perceived as traumatic or not. What what really makes women feel traumatized during the birth process has to do with things like consent and having agency in the decision making that's happening. So so, yes, that's I'm not trying to say that all c sections are traumatic, of course, but
Speaker 1
we can't do it anymore.
Speaker 0
Physically.
Speaker 2
Well yeah. Right.
Speaker 1
Surgery is traumatic. Like, to be put under general if that was what happened, you know, for some c sections, and it it's certainly traumatic for a baby. Like Yeah. And and it can also be life saving. And this is where everyone gets all up in arms about it. You know? Yes. Yes. Of course. No one would argue that on a rare occasion, surgical birth will save the life of a baby. And that is a freaking traumatic way to be born. Is it worth it for life saving? Of course. Absolutely. But, you know, even even that trauma has become this, like, buzzword that, you know, and and really just to be point blank, the the the women, it's rarely men, the women that, fight our message around this stuff Mhmm. They have the most trauma. Yeah. And and that it's sad. It's sad. And I don't know if those people would would listen to this episode today, and that's okay. You know, and but point being, our job is not to say who has trauma and who doesn't. Our point is to say that, this is a this is a common story and and we're gonna unpack it today. We're gonna unpack what it what it means to acknowledge to yourself and to perhaps your community, that you have trauma for your birth, that what happened for you doesn't feel normal or okay, if that is true for you. And that's where I wanna steer back to you, Diana. The other part that I thought was interesting or powerful that that you were just pointing to is that you said you knew that what happened wasn't normal or okay, or or necessary. And so Mhmm. I'm wondering when that happened for you. Was it always happening, like, as the cascade of interventions was unfolding? Did you did you know that this wasn't right, or was it afterwards? When did it did it hit you like a train at one point, or was it just, like, obvious, but you couldn't do anything to stop it the whole time?
Speaker 2
It was obvious, but I couldn't do anything to stop it. And when I was at the hospital, I was in pure survival mode. Yeah. Just pure survival mode. I I had no autonomy at all. Things were being done to me. You know, once I had the epidural, I couldn't even move.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
My doula had no power. My husband couldn't do anything. I was just had to survive it. I I knew as it was happening that, it was awful, but I just had to survive it. And and and then it was really in the postpartum period that I experienced the waves of just, you know, grief and anxiety and depression. And, I think anyone would have diagnosed me with having postpartum depression, but it wasn't that. It was just PTSD and and Greek from this experience. So that's when I felt it. When I was in the hospital, I was just have to survive this.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's being assaulted. Right? Yeah. It's being assaulted. Yeah. And and what's crazy is that it's the system that's assaulting you. So what happened to you? I mean, I wasn't there, but just from the overview of the story you've you've shared, it's pretty average. A lot of women hold this story, particularly home birth transfers. It's it's almost understood that if it doesn't, quote, unquote, work out at home, you're going to the hospital for the cascade of interventions that may or may not end in a surgical birth. Mhmm. You know, we and we also know, let's say, induction. So artificially induced laborers in the hospital have a fifty percent chance, fifty percent chance of ending in a surgical delivery. So Mhmm. This cascade of interventions, you know, that that we talk about is it's an epidural. It's the Pitocin. It might be AROM, rupturing your membranes, and the baby we don't know how the baby's gonna do with that Pitocin. That's we don't know how the baby's gonna do with the lack of oxygen with the intense, contractions that are not physiologically giving baby this, break and all this replenishing, you know, oxygen in between. It's it's running it's really running a freight train through that uterus. And so, it's very common that babies don't do well. And then we also know that with continuous monitoring when it was introduced in the late eighties, that all continuous monitoring has done is it increased c sections. It has not increased outcomes. It has not improved outcomes. So that's important to understand because if you're birthing in captivity, the first time you accept an intervention, you kinda have to be or maybe should be on continuous monitoring because you're fucking with the sequence, with the physiological sequence. It's no longer even remotely a physiological birth experience if you've accepted an intervention, even if it's, IV fluids, you know, because that's gonna dilute your hormones. That's gonna Mhmm. Per it potentially could cause perennial swelling. I mean, all sorts of stuff. And so automatically now the baby is out of, what's the right word? It's out of flow with the with the mom and the hormones.
Speaker 2
Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Exactly. Yeah. And and getting out of that normal physiological hormonal flow takes away, you know, a a large part of why birth is safe. You know? You're, like, making it less safe when you do that.
Speaker 1
Exactly. And so it's a tricky it's a tricky topic because, you know, I mean, it just it's so big. It's like this huge wheel because why are so many transfer transfers happening? Well, many of them are happening on the rules and regulations of the midwife or the nervousness of the midwife. We also have to remember that with licensed midwives and actually with unlicensed midwives, their reputation is on the line every time they do or do not transfer. And perhaps not even their reputation, but their actual license, relationships with the hospital, and perhaps their relationship with the law. And so transfers are a really, really, really big deal. And and it just it gets so complicated because now we're also dealing with not just the birthing woman situation, but the midwife situation. And so she, you know, may have a relationship with the OB, and there is a point where it would be inappropriate to bring the woman in. You know, she doesn't wanna be bringing in train wrecks every week. She wants to be bringing in, you know, not train wrecks. She wants to be bringing in, you know, somebody who can still, where it's not gonna be a chaotic situation. Right. I'm not articulating this very well, but but point being that there's in transfers, we unfortunately, but just realistically, we also have to consider what's going on with the midwife and her dynamic in the community. Mhmm. Meaning that perhaps there are many more transfers happening than should be or or or otherwise, you know, could have worked out at home. Mhmm. So then once we're at the hospital, we're there to use interventions, but now we're opening up a whole can of worms, and we just don't know how it's gonna go. But the system is based around intervening. So there's no normal births happening at the hospital. Yes. Someone may come in and not get an epidural and have a baby quick enough. Yes. Of course. That happens. But the vast, vast majority of women, whether they know it or not, are going to be highly disrupted. And like Diana just said, once you're disrupted, it actually becomes dangerous, whether it's to the baby or to your third stage. You know, postpartum hemorrhaging is very common in captivity, but, you know, they have the I'm pit, and they have they have all the things to, you know, stop a hemorrhage or even oh, even if it gets out of hand, we can do a blood transfusion. And so it's it's really not, cared for very much. It's not really in this idea of prevention, we're actually not seeing emergencies really be that prevented. We're just seeing a shit ton of surgery.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Anyway, so that whole, you know, that whole rambling was to say that we have a we have a a entire culture of trauma and of disruption, which you could argue physiologically that strong disruption and taking away or stealing normal birth. How could that not be traumatic? And so I guess the I guess where I wanna go with this is what what do you feel about because I know you work with women who have birth trauma as well. What Mhmm. Trying to think, like, how we can dive into the resistance of accepting or acknowledging that they have trauma. And like you said, I don't think we were recording yet, but like you said that you never had the option to hide behind, oh, they saved my baby or, oh, this was necessary. Can you speak to that a little bit?
Speaker 2
Yes. It is exquisitely painful to have to admit to yourself that something traumatic and awful happened to you that didn't need to happen. It's really hard to to to really let that sink in and really know it. And there there's a very natural human thing that we do when something traumatic or scary or bad happens to us where, especially as women, will tend to think well I must have deserved that or I must have asked for it. That's just a really common human thing that we do you know I and I and I think it's to protect us and you know I Especially as mothers we have this incredible drive to do we do anything to protect our children right. And if you had to really sit with the thought that a choice that I made or my birth circumstances, which whatever it was, actually could have hurt my child or did hurt my child, that is exquisitely painful. So of course there's resistance around this. Of course. For some reason I didn't have it. I don't really know why. I just always knew, that what happened in in our birth was not right and that it hurt myself and my son. But I totally understand why someone wouldn't really be able to name that in their own experience. I really do. And I, you know, would never say to someone, you've had wow, you had a failed induction, epidural c section, that was a traumatic birth. You know? I would never say that to someone. Or that totally
Speaker 1
didn't that totally didn't need to happen.
Speaker 2
Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. No. No. No. Yeah. But I but it frankly, just makes perfect sense that we wouldn't always recognize it. And then the other thing too is that, like, this is our culture. Right? It is odd for me when I tell people that I had a baby at home in my bedroom after a c section, people look at me like I'm insane. How could you do that? That's so unsafe. So this is our culture, and this is going back, you know, sixty years ago, our grandparents were giving birth under twilight sleep, and they were given a drug that made them just completely forget their what happened to them.
Speaker 1
Less than that. I mean, that was still happening in the seventies.
Speaker 2
It was happening in the seventies. Wow.
Speaker 1
I mean, my my grandma's generation, who was birthing in the fifties, were under ether. Just straight up ether.
Speaker 2
Wow.
Speaker 1
And then Twilight went it it was also around them, but it went through the sixties and the seventies. So Wow. Yeah. I mean and, actually, it's still used today, by the way. Twilight sleep is not gone. That is still used in c sections. Wow. But it's not called that, and and it's used for abortions, which is a different situation, you know, because the women are are consenting in a different way.
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 1
But yeah. It's it's, exactly. So we we come from just two generations ago of women, very, very commonly unconscious. Mhmm.
Speaker 2
But I, you know, I I I mentioned that because this actually gets back to the beginning of our conversation where we stated that in order to heal something, you have to be able to look at it and see it. Right? And if there we have generations of women in our culture who literally couldn't look at or see their births. Like, they don't remember them. They were knocked out. And, I really see this as a collective wound, a collective female wound that we're all kind of swimming in right now. And even if you didn't have a traumatic birth and even if, you know, you don't have a story or a charge around this topic, just by virtue of being women in our culture. And you and I are in the US. I'm speaking about the United States. This is part of part of our collective. This is something that we're all dealing with. And I think that part of the reason I'm so passionate about talking about this topic and I wanna talk to you about it is because I'm seeing our generation starting to really look at this and starting to really take back some of our agency and our power around childbirth. And I believe that it's really important healing work That's not just about this generation, but it's actually going back to our grandmothers too.
Speaker 1
Totally. And I and we can't talk about this without acknowledging rape culture. Mhmm. Because it's really it's all a part of that. That rape culture is really the umbrella that all of this is happening under. You know, the reframing, the, you know, not I mean, what it's like a a two or three percent conviction rate of of rape. You know? I mean, and and it's even less than that of obstetric violence. So, you know, this is we have to call it what it is. And, you know, even even in so in rape culture, like, when I was, you know, ten years ago, my friends and I didn't sit around talking about consent. Consent wasn't a thing that was, like, in our zeitgeist or whatever. And now I can't hang out with people without talking about it. And that's just not me. That's not just me because of the work I'm in. That is that is the women that I know today who are actively I mean, and obviously look in media, like the Harvey Weinstein thing and, you know, so many stuff is coming out in in media. That consent is finally becoming a real topic. And so there's there's, I would say, there's really no difference when we're talking about the obstetrical rape and violence that women are regularly and routinely experiencing, some of which are knowing that that's what it is, others, you know, and it perpetuates itself. Because as women, most of us are have been you know, we have been raised and been violated or assaulted or raped in some way, shape, or form. And so then for it to be reperpetuated through our birth stories, it's deep, man. It's really, there's an acceptance in it or an expectation in it or not being surprised by it, where it gets really heady. And so to pull way, way, way back, and I just wanna say to anyone listening, you should not have a vaginal exam if you're not into that vaginal exam. I would call that birth rape. To have fingers inside of you or instruments inside of you, whether it's during your birth, whether it's during your pap smear, whether it's during, a party or bed you know, in your bed, if something is going inside of your body without you fully consenting to it and welcoming it, then that is a violation. That is assault. And so what's changing in our generation is we're starting to name what it is, you know, which is,
Speaker 2
Exactly.
Speaker 1
Painfully exciting, you know, because hopefully, in our children's generation, you know, Diana has two sons. I have a little daughter. That consent is talked about from the very beginning. And that, there is no confusion, when my daughter is a little tipsy at a party, you know, that that perhaps Diana's sons understand, you know, at this point how to protect a girl who's a little drunk. You know, I mean, I talk about it with my husband all the time that, you know, I have male friends now who will acknowledge, oh my god. I really didn't get full consent. I have been I have had sex with plenty of girls that, yeah, I think I did actually kinda push her, and she kinda wasn't that into it. But I kinda didn't really care because I'm an entitled white guy that takes what's mine. You know? And there's a lot of bravery and and men willing to, look at that and start to talk about it. Anyway, so so yeah. I don't think we can talk about this without really going to the to the bigger umbrella of of what rape culture is today and how it manifests everywhere.
Speaker 2
Well, absolutely. And I'd even take it a step further and say, I can think of no better way to enslave women than to take away their power when we're doing the most powerful transformative thing we will ever do, which is give birth. Like, there's no better way to do it. If I were to design a way to perpetuate patriarchy and rape culture, I would hurt women during childbirth. I'd tell them to be afraid of it. I'd tell them it's scary and painful. I'd tell them they need drugs. I'd tell them they need an authority to do it. I mean, it's need to be safe.
Speaker 1
Yeah. They can do it. Yeah.
Speaker 2
It's it's actually brilliant.
Speaker 1
Yeah. It really is. I know. I just said this in another another podcast. It really is. It it really is genius, the strategic and systematic dismantling of feminine power. And it has been Yeah. So successful for so long that the fact that you and I chose to birth at home on our own terms is considered not only radical, but irresponsible is Yeah. Is really amazing. You know? It really is amazing that the women we work with and the women we love and know in the free birth community are routinely disrespected and condescended and, and sometimes exiled of their communities or even their families for the choices that that they make because they wanna, increase their authority or claim their personal decisions about their body. Because let's be real. This is not a society that trusts women or that grants women permission, of their own reproductive health, of, even of of their own parenting styles at at times. So it's it's yeah. I mean, this whole thing just runs it runs so deep, and you're totally right. I mean, let's just call it what it is. This is the most intelligent and effective way to keep women not feeling powerful. I mean, also, just to take it there, women can't even bring themselves to say they're fucking powerful. Like, do you did you see how much pushback I got when I posted on Facebook? Can we stop saying empowered? Men don't say empowered. Why can't women say I feel powerful? I birthed powerfully. I I wake up feeling powerful. I feel powerful in my relationship, and I wrote this whole thing. And I cannot tell you how many people women commented back, I'm not comfortable with the word powerful. You know, that men you know, it makes me think of of a of a real, like what did they say? Like, a real opinionated asshole. You know, like, all of these interesting yeah. It was really interesting to see how much pushback I got to me saying, I feel powerful because we have to go a step down. We have to say, my birth was empowering because it's a it's a a temporary state. Right? Because if you're empowered, then that means you're disempowered. It goes back and forth. You're empowered in this moment or being around her makes me feel empowered or she empowers me, but then you go right back to your normal natural feminine, you know, stupid little tiny space of not being empowered. But when you feel powerful, that shit is unshakable.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And there's no more perfectly designed way to really feel your own specific leaf feminine power than to give birth. I mean, it's incredible. We've just been given this incredible birthright as women to be able to do this. And I mean, I actually had a question for you. I hope we're not straying too far off of the topic. I think it's all related, but I see that very clearly, what's being taken away from women when they're birthing in captivity. You see it very clearly. I'm wondering, why do you think more people don't see this or why why do you think so many of us want to give birth in hospitals with drugs and not experience birth for what it really is
Speaker 1
well I think you already said it I think that we have generations upon generations, and then we also have thousands and thousands of years of very intentionally treating women less than and, having no honor for their bodies, no education for their bodies. So the vast majority of women are, first of all, growing up with traumatic birth stories themselves. Right? Mhmm. Yeah. My mom's tailbone broken labor or my mom needed to be put out or I needed I was in emergency c section. And men are too. This is not specific to women. You know, people are growing up with, largely, traumatic birth stories and hearing them. And so that's, you know, that's that's a huge, huge piece that is not a small thing to overcome. Because as, you know, you as you know, whatever is normalized for us in as kids is what we do as adults. It becomes real for us as adults unless we very intentionally reprogram that. And so the normal imprinting pattern is whatever happened to us as kids and was said to us and was created for us, that is how we live unless otherwise rearranged. And then I think also we already spoke to it to acknowledge the issue means you have to do something about it. And so Yeah. When you acknowledge what is happening in the hospitals, you have to make a choice. You have to you can't just turn a blind eye. I mean, you could, but I I feel like you either have to deny it or you have to embrace it and then do something different. And so, you know, obviously, we're connected to a lot of women who are doing that, who are saying no way, and I will I will exit that system with whatever cost it takes, whether I don't have my husband's support or, you know, people judge me or I lose friends on Facebook or whatever. But it's a big question, right, because it's a huge ask to socially hear these trauma stories and not feed into the drama of those stories, which are all in a way proving that birth is dangerous, that women are broken, that we need obstetrics. I mean, we see it in our group. You know, women post all the time. I don't wanna go back to the hospital, but in my last birth, I almost died from bleeding out. Okay.
Speaker 2
All the time. Yeah. All the time.
Speaker 1
Holy shit, girl. We gotta unpack your story, you know, because it is extremely unlikely that that is gonna happen in an undisturbed birth. It actually doesn't really make any sense. But it makes a lot of sense when you have fifteen people in the room and you've been feeling extremely unsafe and you're on drugs and you're numb on your back, and the the baby is pulled and cut from you and, you know, I mean, hemorrhage in a c section is incredibly common and extremely dangerous. And often Yeah. You know, I mean, as a doula, I've seen quite a bit of hemorrhages during a c section, and then that was never relayed to the mom. So she didn't even know that she had a hemorrhage and that the whole team was freaking out while she was put under. I mean, I've seen c sections where they I was watching from the door because they wouldn't let me in, and something was feeling fishy and all of a sudden I see them put a mask over the mom and knock her out, you know. And so, I mean, I've seen that more than a couple times and so, you know, it's it's full reign. Once you're in there, you don't there's no like, is this okay with you? Anyway, so I mean, back to the original question. Why is this happening? Why aren't we naming it? I think that, we are. You know? We look at what look at what's happened in the last year. I mean, even that this podcast has as many downloads as it has and that, you know, we we can't shut up about this and that our group is growing every day. Yes. It's small potatoes to the global population, but women are regularly reaching out to the lighthouses who are holding the space like you and me and and many other women that we know and saying, this happened to me, and I need to tell you my story. And so Yes. You know, for anyone listening, like, that's how I think of it, and that's how that's who I want you to be. That is my ask of you if you are listening to this, is be a lighthouse in your community that says, I will listen to your story. I will hold your story, and I will not reframe it. I will not say, at least you have a healthy baby, or, you know, you can just try for a v back next time. I will hold your story and look at you and cry with you and say, I am so fucking sorry that was taken from you. And we have to do that for each other because more women will hold this. More women will come. More women will share their stories if they know that they're gonna be heard. It's the same thing with sexual assault, you know. It's the same thing with with with everything that we're talking about, you know. They have to women have to know where they can be heard and held. And and it makes these stories make people so uncomfortable that they keep it in, or they reframe, or they refocus, and there's nowhere for them to, like, off charge these feelings. So let's actually let's get back to your your story and your, your journey of healing, because, you know, it's something that I'm hoping people can who are feeling similar and who are starting to acknowledge their trauma. And perhaps there is a little whisper inside of you, you know, if you're listening to this, that maybe what happened to you wasn't right. And maybe, maybe that hasn't been normalized for you, and maybe someone hasn't listened to your tale yet, and maybe you are resonating with some of what we're saying today. So, Diana, take us to, you know, anything in your postpartum that started your path of healing. What did that look like for you personally?
Speaker 2
Well, the first thing that I had to do was I had to find people in my life that were safe people that I could talk about my experience with, people who would not say exactly what you just said. Well, at least you have a healthy baby. Oh, well, next time, you can try for a VBAC. Like, I needed to tell my story to people that would really hear me, and and, I did it over and over and over again. And, that was really the first thing that needed to happen. Like I said, I I already could look at it clearly and see this was shitty This was terrible Then I needed to talk about it So and I would say to any of your listeners that can be hard to find especially if you're maybe listening to this and you're in more of a conservative community. Maybe you don't have anyone who's not totally hooked into the mainstream medical model that would hear you. And so to that, I want to say online communities can be so great for this Free Birth Society obviously I'm a moderator on that Facebook group And anybody who's listening to this who's had a challenging birth and wants to go to a place online where we will hear you and honor your story and not tell you, well, at least you had a healthy baby, that's one place that you can go. So that was really helpful to me beginning to heal was talking to safe people in my life. And I also reached out to online communities of women that totally got it. ICAN was another really great resource for me because I think that ICAN can vary region to region. But where I live, Seattle ICAN group is extremely supportive, very just great. You can go there and talk about having a traumatic C section. Everybody totally gets it. And everyone's just going to not say, well, next time or you have a healthy baby. They'll just totally get it. And so that that was really helpful for me after the second year of my son's life. Well, I should back up and say I wasn't really committed to healing, to be honest with you. I kind of felt like I can't ever look at birth again after that experience because it was so spiritually shattering to me. It was like my whole worldview just got shattered, and I couldn't look at it again. I never thought I would have another child. I had zero interest in going to counseling or doing any other sort of trauma work because I just couldn't look at it It was like there was this box in my heart that I couldn't look at And of course, the universe threw my way a surprise pregnancy. Oh, my God. I've seen you. Despite, yeah, despite our efforts to not conceive, we did. And that was really just the the impetus for me to get real serious about my healing real quick because, I I knew that I I knew that I had to just really look at the trauma of my first birth and do everything that I could to heal it. And the other thing too is that I knew that I couldn't look at my second child as a means to an end to heal. You know what I'm saying? Like, I couldn't put this on him. Like, I'm pregnant with another baby. I have to have a great birth this time because it has to heal me because that isn't him.
Speaker 1
Which a lot of women do. And I don't Yeah. I don't know how I feel about it because I've seen it really work in a way. Yeah. You know? And then the the sad part is on the other hand, women who are done having babies have this last traumatic birth and they say things like, I feel like if I could just, like, do one more, I could correct it. But I I, you know, I I say this very gently, but that's a little bit of bypass because It is. Yeah. One yes. Yes. Yes. With VBACS. Oh my god. The biggest thing in the world is to be able to say, I knew I could do it. This was taken from me, and now in a way, I've, like, proved to myself that a bird a baby can come out of my vagina. Like, that's real. That is a real thing that many, many women, need and experience, you know, but but not everybody gets that opportunity. And so I think it's important to point out, like, that that second birth or next birth, like you said, can't can't be all that there is because it might it it could also set yourself up, for the realization that you still have healing to do.
Speaker 2
Right. And also, I would argue that that it's not actually true healing to feel like you're healed if you only have one type of an outcome. You know, true healing is getting to a place where you're you're healed from the experience that you had with no stipulations or no, you know, conditions upon it. And that's how I looked at the second birth. I was like, no matter what happens, I have to be okay. If another C section happens, I'm going to have two children and a husband that are going to need me to not fall apart I'm going to need to be okay My kids need me And I never ever want to say that my second birth healed me because Exactly because of why you said not everybody gets that opportunity And children, I don't think you should ever have a pregnancy for that reason. That's not a good reason to have another pregnancy or go into another birth. So getting back to what I was saying, my second pregnancy really lit a fire under me to really do the work to really heal with no conditions upon however my second birth turned out. I did a lot of different things. And I think that how a person heals from trauma probably depends person to person there's so many different wonderful modalities out there I think that any type of physical or energetic healing that you're drawn to is really important in healing trauma in the body because birth trauma is stored in our bodies for sure. It's in our psyches and our spirits, but it's also in our bodies. So I did a lot of things like I started going to a hypnotist who specifically works with birth trauma So we would go into hypnosis and rebirth my first birth, which was a really interesting experience and work on releasing the trauma that was in my body from my first birth I did some work, like some kind of woo woo work where I worked with a medium, a psychic medium who did some energetic clearing from my system from my first birth. And this is all stuff that really resonated with me personally. I know that doesn't really resonate with everybody. For me, I felt like that's what I needed to really heal this very primal wound
Speaker 1
that was in my head. I think just being open minded around it and just trying stuff and creating the possibility for for it to clear or heal or, move through you, you know, that's where that's where I think those kind of more, hippie dippy modalities are really cool because whether you're, like, totally on board or not or whatever, just creating the possibility for shift, you know. And sometimes you have to get kind of outside of your comfort zone because as we all probably know, if you're just trying to do it in your head, and this is why talk therapy is not very, efficient or or productive, you know, because if you're just running around in the same circus of your own head, yes, it can feel amazing to vent and process and cry and be heard and all of that so important. But but then what? You know, how do we actually get the energy to move in your whole body, not just your mind? And so, yeah, speaking to it, you know, speak storing in your body. I think sometimes with those other modalities that might feel a little awkward or questionable or improvable or any of those things, it's it's kind of, important to step out of your comfort zone and just try stuff with an open mind and an open heart because that is where stuff can start to move and shift.
Speaker 2
Absolutely. It did for me. It was really helpful for me. And I wanted to say, too, about therapy. I think that especially for moms that are dealing with birth trauma, I just don't feel like therapy is maybe the I think that we could all benefit from it, probably. I could probably have benefited from it that first year or so after my son's birth, but it's kind of not accessible for most new moms. I mean, I don't know about you, but, like, there's absolutely no there are days that I didn't shower. Totally. You know,
Speaker 1
get to Venus to eat. You know
Speaker 2
what I mean?
Speaker 1
Unless it's specifically a postpartum, you know, I would even say female, you know, therapist. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's lots of great therapists out there, but there's not a ton that are specializing in the postpartum period or birth trauma. And so, unfortunately, it's kind of, you know, just going to any old therapist, well, what could they really provide for you? I guess they could just listen and reflect and hold, which if you don't have that in your life, you know, you could do it on Skype from your house while your baby slept on your breast. You know, you could do that if you are boiling over in your home and have nowhere to turn. You know, yes. You still have to, you know, try to do something, and if not with somebody else, then journal. You know, if you can't find or afford anybody to hold space with you, hold it for yourself, which is not easy. I'm not acting like that's a easy thing to force yourself to pull that, you know, laptop out or pen and and paper out, but there are ways there are simple and free ways to just get the energy moving, and journaling is the most simple. It's it's literally available to everybody who knows how to read and write. Mhmm. And so and that doesn't take anything other than a little bit of dedicated time. And so that is or or even, like, you could go on a walk and just say your story out loud. You know? You could just say it, and nobody has to hear you. Another trick I heard was one mom, who was very felt very isolated. She recorded her story on a voice memo on her phone, and then she listened to it.
Speaker 2
Wow. And
Speaker 1
I thought that was really cool, you know, because I
Speaker 2
love that.
Speaker 1
Isn't that cool? Because it is a way to hold space for yourself or you could journal, and if there was one person you wanted to read it. Also, while we're here, let me just say, you can send me or Diana your story. We will always read your story and hold it and not share it, unless that was something you wanted. But, we are absolutely individually and as Freebird Society, you know, very willing to listen and read. And and, actually, Yolanda and I both offer debriefing Skype sessions where we just get on Skype, and you just tell us your birth story, and we help you unpack it. We fill in the blanks. There's gonna be questions. You know, not that we know the details of your birth, but we understand the system in which you birthed very, very well. And so, a a birth debrief and I'm sure we're not the only people that do that. So a birth debrief, could also be massively helpful to normalize, and understand, yeah, what happened to you.
Speaker 2
That's so amazing. I wish that I had known about that five and a half years ago. Yeah. That would have been just massive in my healing to, like, get on the phone with someone who really gets it and share my story. That would have been huge. Definitely.
Speaker 1
And I keep so I do I am curious to and I know he's not here to give his side of it, but I'm thinking about your husband. And I'm thinking about, what it was like for him to witness your experience and then be with you in your postpartum experience, however he was, and then this surprise pregnancy and and then his own preparation and, and then to witness you have a wild ecstatic birth in your bed with your second baby, without him physically being here to speak for himself. I'm just can you speak to his process a little bit with this?
Speaker 2
Yeah. I can. I would say that he was almost as traumatized as I was from my first son's birth, and, I noticed that for him it manifested more as rage. Like, he he was furious. He was so angry. He wanted to get everyone at the hospital fired. He he he was just rageful, so angry. And he's really not an angry person. He's a really sweet, gentle guy. But I I think that even to this day, he has a lot of anger about that that particular hospital. It's a, you know, a local community hospital that we sometimes drive by and see. And I he's he's he was angry, really angry. Just like me, there was no part of him that felt like we were saved by that experience or that it needed to happen. He felt extremely violated by it too, but also helpless. There was nothing he could do, just nothing. And then in the postpartum period, I was grieving. He was angry. That's really what that looked like. So it was a really challenging couple of years for us.
Speaker 1
Were you doing that as allies or polarized or a mixture?
Speaker 2
Mostly as allies Mostly as allies We would we would talk about it a lot I'm really grateful that he's someone that I could just talk about the birth a lot I'd cry a lot to him and he would express his anger his fury So we definitely didn't butt heads but we processed the experience in different ways together pretty well given that we had a very different experience after the birth with you know, how we how we dealt with all those emotions.
Speaker 1
So did he blink an eye when you were like, I'm obviously v backing at home, or was he like, yeah, of course. We're not going back there.
Speaker 2
What was He he was like, yeah, of course. There's no way.
Speaker 1
Because, you know, as you know, so many men who've witnessed the trauma of their their partner's birth, and this happens with women too, but but we're gonna just stay on topic of of partners right now that so many get very twisted and confused with the total lack of education and support around their experience and understanding what went down. I mean, they're most likely not joining virtual circles and, you know, talking to other men. You know, unfortunately, because of the society we live in, there's just not there's often, not always, but often, there is not, much available for, male who has experienced secondary trauma of his partner's birth. And so Oh, yeah. Then when the woman says, I'm not going back there, or I can't I can't bear to think of that again, very often, the man says, are you kidding? You almost died. Like, we can't we can't not.
Speaker 2
The Stockholm Syndrome that people get locked into when they have a and particularly partners, I think, when they have a traumatic experience at the hospital, But then there's, like, this narrative that, like, oh, you know, whatever. We have to be there the next time.
Speaker 1
Yeah. I'm I'm I'm particularly thinking of this one. I mean, this happens all the time. But when I was a doula, I was a woman hired me, a woman and a man hired me for a VBAC birth, and she was going right back to the same hospital and the same group of midwives. And Yeah. I couldn't wrap my head around it. And they were like, oh, no. They Yeah. Well, they support VBACS and and every time I met with them, they were very, aware of the trauma that they had and honestly, I would say the partner might have even been more traumatized and it just it was so bizarre to me. And that's not the only client I had that did that, but I'll never forget it because it was so obvious. And I and I flat out said, why are you going back to the place that that ruined your birth? What are you doing? And, you know, it's, oh, insurance or, oh, whatever. They said this. That's it. Blah blah blah blah. It's just, it's weird, honestly. It's weird and it's sad and I don't I don't entirely get it. But Stockholm Syndrome is the best example or the best kind of, like, thing that we're familiar with that that I could relate it to. You know, returning you know, they say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result and, to return to the place of of trauma or your c section, at the same hands of the same people and think that you're gonna have a different experience. Yes, you might have a v back. That woman did have a vaginal birth, with an unconsenting episiotomy and, a lot of violence. You know, so like at what cost? Like, okay. VBAC is not all we're after, people. You know? Like Well
Speaker 2
Go ahead. Yeah. I mean, for particularly for VBAC moms, a lot of us, like, just don't have any choice because I know where I live, it was hospital or free birth, basically. And that's true of many parts in this country because licensed midwives, depending on where you live, many of them aren't, allowed under the stipulations of their license to attend women at home who've had surgical births.
Speaker 1
So, if they have to be two years different, like in California, they need to have been twenty four months apart. So, I mean, what if you have back to back pregnancies?
Speaker 2
Right, exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, I, when I look at that, I just think that some people just think that they don't have any other choice. I mean, I know that, like, before with my second birth, before I realized I had to do this outside of the system completely, I was petrified because I really kind of did think for a minute that I had to go back to the hospital because I knew Right. I knew what the laws were in the state where I live. Yeah. And that was terrifying. Oh. That was just petrifying. Yeah. And I have absolutely no doubt in my mind, Emily, that had I gone to had I birthed my second baby in a hospital, any hospital, I know I would have had another c section. I know I would have because there's no way that I would have been able to open up and do the work of birth in a place that treated me like a higher risk patient, that I wouldn't be able to relax. I just know that it would have gone that way.
Speaker 1
I can't believe any vaginal burst happened in captivity, quite frankly.
Speaker 2
That's exactly how I feel. I'm actually shocked when it goes well.
Speaker 1
Same with my birth story. I mean, it is so unlikely given the length of it, the meconium. I mean, just the length. Just the length alone. You know, you very, very rarely hear of of a vaginal birth after forty hours, you know, fifty hours. But then once there was MEK, yeah. I've I there's no way. There's no way
Speaker 2
I would have.
Speaker 1
And and what's kind of interesting is that so many of the free birth women in our community, they have been labeled high risk or they would've been labeled high risk, but we already know. I mean, obstetrics is high risk. That's what they're skilled in and therefore, that's how they view everybody. And so, you know, what OB says, you're a low risk healthy woman that could totally birth outside of here. Of course not because you are always potentially high risk. Right? Because birth is high risk in in the in that model.
Speaker 2
And the entire model of prenatal care is looking for pathology. Right. That's what it is. That's, like, literally all it's doing. So, of course, you're gonna find something.
Speaker 1
So going back to trauma topic, I actually if it's right. Before you and I got on the call here, I posted a little image I I love, today that says, there are only two kinds of people in the world. There are mothers and there are babies. And I love that. And it's powerful. You know, it's kinda stopped me in my tracks when I when I saw that going through whatever page I took it from. That there are only two types of people. There are mothers and there are babies. And so, gosh. You know? Right? It just kind of is like, oh, shit. There are there are only two types of people. There's mothers and then there's all the little boys and girls that are born, from these mothers. And so all of the adults, you know, in our world, all of our partners, all of our fellow, all of our fellow women and men are all or we're all just babies, and then there's mothers. And so how are we treating them? And, and and how are women and men being born? And what stories are we growing up with? And it is, a hundred percent unacceptable that the vast majority of people are being born out of violence, in violence. Mothers are being traumatized. Babies are being traumatized. And then what's even more unacceptable is that we're not putting we're not calling it what it is.
Speaker 2
Right? Which is That's why we're having this conversation right now. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Yeah. So anything else you wanna make sure we touch on?
Speaker 2
I think I just want to, like, address the woman that's listening to this that had a traumatic birth and is, like, trying to figure out how to heal from it or is perhaps currently hurting from it. And I just really want to say to that person that's listening that you are so not alone and that you're not crazy and that if you feel like you were traumatized by your birth or that maybe there were elements of it that was scary or traumatizing and other elements of it that were great that your feelings are totally valid and real, and that there are so many of us that share your story and that want to hold you in love and support you. And I also want to say that healing is absolutely possible. Feeling whole, not feeling broken, that's so possible to achieve. After even even a really, really shattering and horrible birth experience, It can happen. You can heal from it. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Which we know also is not just happening in the hospital. You know, we talk with women all the time who have, trauma experiences at the hands of their midwives. Or I just spoke with a woman yesterday who had a totally sabotaged free birth, because of, the multiple people that invited themselves into the birth. And so this is not, you know, never trying to paint this picture that free birth is this perfect utopian experience that nothing can ever go wrong and then every birth in the hospital is totally traumatic. And of course, that's not at all true. Mhmm. You know, undeniably, you increase your chances for a normal and powerful birth when you are undisturbed and when you and you are at home. Yes. Those are true. But trauma happens in all settings. And like you pointed to earlier, you know, and we don't need studies to prove this. It's obvious. But there have been studies that prove that it is about how the woman feels versus the outcome. And so Right. You know, it's it's I think, yeah, part of the naming it and the responsibility that comes with naming it is knowing that you then have to make a different choice. And what happens when the person that traumatized you in your labor was your husband? Or the midwife who's already caught two of your babies, and is the only midwife available in your town, you know, or it's the doctor who's been your OB GYN since you were sixteen. You know, there's some of these relationships run really deep that that it's it feels impossible to break away from them or to create a new dynamic if you are to have another baby again. And you are gonna have to do something different. That's just Mhmm. That's that's the truth. You You are gonna have to do something different. Maybe a different location, different team, by yourself. You know, we don't know. You you'll have to find those answers for yourself, obviously. But, you know, we we really I think our the biggest point of this episode is to acknowledge how mass the trauma is and how common it is, and that if you are not being validated in your story, please reach out to us, and we will listen to you and we will sit with you and we will hear you and we will help you come up with another plan if you need one, if you are moving into another birth and need to clear out your previous birth. I mean, I've had women contact me who need to clear out their birth from ten years ago, you know, or fifteen years ago. You know? Yeah. I mean, and, you know, probably so many of you listening are already birth junkies, so you've had this experience. Like, I can't go anywhere without somebody telling me their birth from the seventies. Like, the last time I flew, somebody so older woman, old quite old, like, eighty something sat next to me, and she I don't even think I told her I was in the birth world, and she I swear to God, she just started telling me her birth story. And it was really messed up. And it was, so painful for her to tell. And, you know, how many fifty years later? You know, so yeah. It's just there's there's really no end to this conversation, and it is ongoing, and we will always talk about this in our in our episodes to keep bringing it to light. But I really love that image of considering yourself and making yourself, deciding that you are a lighthouse for other women to hold if you feel ready for that. You know, if you feel able to hold, a safe container without, you know, it totally bringing up all of your own trauma and stuff. But if you feel, able to do that for other women or if you need that, please know that we we can be those women for you.
Speaker 2
Absolutely. I love that. I love that image. That's so good. I think we we basically touched on everything that I wanted to do. Okay. I think we had some good conversation.
Speaker 1
Cool. Okay. So we're gonna leave it there. I hope that this touched you and and, you know, helped give you a virtual hug or or acknowledgment if if you felt like you needed that today. And, yeah, I'm trying to I just I keep seeing this beautiful image of all these, you know, powerful women as these lighthouses that are safe for each other, and, it's just, you know, I'm a broken record saying this, but the first step is if you are ready and willing to acknowledge that the system failed you, you did not fail you. You didn't know. You didn't know what the system had in store for you. And now that you know, you can make a different choice. And like Diana said, she didn't even know in the beginning that she could make a different choice. And, you know, I want that to be one of the biggest things we're driving home today is, you and that's one of the beauties of free birth is and it's not a simple thing to choose to free birth, but if you can't afford a midwife or if you can't find a midwife and you also can't afford to go back to the hospital, there are other options. You know, there really are. You could just stay home if that felt like the safest and most intuitive route for you. You can do that. And at Free Birth Society, we can try to help you find a doula or a birth attendant, in your area. If if there is one, we'd be happy to help pair you to somebody that we might know.
Speaker 2
Yes.
Speaker 1
Well, thank you so much. Thanks, Emily. Yeah. Thanks for your time and your story and everything you represent. You really are this beacon of possibility, I think, for other women that you've really been there in a way that I haven't, you know, and you've, you've worked through it and you've done the hard work and, and you're willing to talk about it. And it's, gosh, it's just it's so important.
Speaker 2
Thanks, Emily. I appreciate that. I I appreciate all the work that you're doing too. It's so needed in this world right now. So thank you.
Speaker 1
That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
