Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldea.
Speaker 1
Hey, everyone. Quick announcement here. In honor of all of the free birth babies that have been born in our new membership this past month, we are giving our complete guide to free birth online course away at half price through the end of the year. If you've been curious about our take on radical childbirth education, go check it out at free birth society dot com. This week, we have Emily, a beautiful woman from New Zealand who settled with her partner in Portugal where she now lives off the grid. Emily shares the journey of following her truth and birthing her son alone with just her partner and the story of her daughter's birth who was a surprise breach.
Speaker 2
Well, so I was trying to work out when when I made the decision to free birth and it was like there there were so many I was like, maybe it started here or maybe it started at this point, but I realized it started, like, way back with my parents and it was like who I was always going to be really. Like, with with my mom, she's, like, so naturally inclined. She always, you know, she had all three of us, like, vaginal hospital births, and I was, like, the first posterior forceps, and my sister was, like, a footling breech with a nuchal cord, you know, kind of scary things, but my mom and my dad, neither of them even made birth seem, like, dangerous or scary. And my mom always said, you know, the pain goes away as soon as the baby is born. So that's sort of just like, you know, that sort of natural mindedness from my mom. Mhmm. And so she's very open minded to, like, new ideas, and I think that kind of rubs off for me as well.
Speaker 1
Nice. Yeah. That makes a huge difference.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And then and then from my from my dad, I guess, he's like, he can be quite skeptical about things, like, always researching things to draw his own conclusion rather than doing what everyone else is doing. Mhmm. So, yeah, that plays a part too and also being, like, quite quite stubborn. Well, my husband would probably say that's my most challenging trait. And I'm like, yeah, I can I think, yeah, for sure, just sticking with the decision to free birth, you've gotta be quite quite stubborn, I suppose? Yeah.
Speaker 1
Totally. Yeah. Or another word we could use is committed.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Committed. That's a that's a more PC word. Yeah. And then I've always I've always had a passion for children, like I always knew I wanted to have kids, like as a teenager I'd babysit and but then I when I was seventeen, I became a nanny for like four children later five, and then I just developed a passion, like, an intense passion for anything child related. So, like, I knew I didn't wanna have kids straight away, but I wanted to make, you know, the most of that time I had before I did have kids to learn as much as I could and have, you know, those, like, experiences that would help me to be the parent I wanted to be. Mhmm. And, like, when my husband and I got together when we were eighteen, I like, eighteen year old teenagers, I asked if he wanted to have kids someday. It was like, you know, for me, it was important that I knew that we were heading in the same direction.
Speaker 1
Of course. I wish more people talked about that on the first date. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And, but fortunately, he knew for sure that he did. He was yeah. So it was yeah. It was nice to know that we had the same eventual goals even if we both knew we didn't want them just yet. And then, yeah, later on, I guess, I worked as a nanny for another family with four children, and then I my degree was in psychology doing, like, minoring in, child development and education. And then, like, in my spare time, I would just, like, browse online all about anything to do with children. It would, like, always catch my attention. And, at some point I realized what was it? I realized that I was confident for once I had children, but I'd never actually looked into birth itself. Mhmm. And so I went into that kind of, you know, pretty open minded. I didn't I didn't know anyone who'd ever had a home birth. So like when I went into it, I thought, you know, induction it seems, you know, that seems convenient and epidural seems like a great way to take the pain away. So I didn't yeah. I wasn't inclined one way or another, but it didn't take me long to, you know, just studying the research and reading testimonials to come to the conclusion that I wanted to have a home water birth.
Speaker 1
And you were you were figuring this out prior to your pregnancy?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this was, like, probably two or three years before I got pregnant.
Speaker 1
I love that. That's so cool.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I I still kind of feel like it was a bit weird, like, just because no nobody else sort of does that.
Speaker 1
Oh, I do.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1
And, you know, I think that this is my hope, my prayer is that women who have not yet, been pregnant or or with a pregnancy that, you know, they're going to keep or whatever, that they do start to think about this stuff years before because you are destined to have a better birth if you give this time to marinate and to really figure out what is authentic for you. I mean, yeah, it is, I would say it is unusual for women, you know, like you and I, but at the same time it it actually needs to be more common because I'm very confident we will see more conscious conceptions and more intentional, you know, women birthing in power.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I yeah. I totally agree with you. Yeah.
Speaker 1
So we can be weird together.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. But it was still yeah. So I wanted a home water birth, but still with, a midwife. I've never heard of free birth at this point. And in in New Zealand, it's it's free, like, all birth anything related to birth is free, whether it's in a hospital, at a birth center, at home. So I was, yeah, I just thought, right, that's what's going to happen. And then I just kind of ignored it for, you know, until I until I got pregnant, I guess, which so I'll bring you to that, my first, pregnancy. It was when was it? It was the morning after our wedding, we were just sitting down eating breakfast and my husband asked when I wanted to have start having children.
Speaker 1
Oh, my gosh. That's so cute.
Speaker 2
He's like, now that I've got you wet. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, oh, maybe in about, you know, twelve months from now, I'd I'd come off the pill about six weeks earlier, and I wanted to give my cycle just a year to regulate and fully understand, you know, my, you know, my own sort of cycle. And, so yeah. So it would also because at I guess at the time, we were we'd been traveling around Europe and we decided to buy land in Portugal and live off grid. So we'd we'd come home for our wedding in Fiji and we were going back to got
Speaker 1
married in Fiji?
Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah. So we had like a yeah. We had like a nice little it was just like a close family and friends, about twenty of us. It was, oh, it was beautiful just on the beach and Oh, wow. It was perfect. And, yeah. So, we'd come home for the wedding and we were only home for two months and then we were going back to basically, we'd been living in our van for the past two or three years at that point. And so we had no land and no house or anything like that, but our plan was to go back and find something. Well, we had Portugal was the last country on our list when we'd traveled around all of Europe. And at that point, we'd always assume we'd head back to New Zealand to to, you know, settle down. And then we got to the end of our trip and we're like, well, we're not ready to come home. We know we want to kind of live a lot more sustainably. Mhmm. For how we want to live, we can't really afford to do that in New Zealand. Mhmm. But we could have we look yeah. We looked into it in Portugal and we're like, well, we can afford to do it here. So, yeah, that was that was it, basically.
Speaker 1
Wow. Awesome.
Speaker 2
We were coming back here to Portugal to nothing, basically, just a van and a Labrador who had been traveling with us. And, yeah, so it was about two weeks after our wedding that I found out we'd actually conceived the night before on our wedding night.
Speaker 1
Wow.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So we're like, oh, okay. So this is, just I mean, yeah. It was great. It was everything I'd wanted for years.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
It was just a year sooner than we expected. Mhmm. And, yeah, so we we went with it. It was fun. And then I think, yeah, a couple of days after I found out, I decided to join some Facebook groups about, just to do with home birth, and then then I stumbled onto unassisted birth, and I was like, what the hell is this? These women must be crazy. And I decided to but yeah. No. I decided to stay in the groups and try and, you know, give them a chance before writing them off as, you know, nuts. And it it didn't take long. I think I was in the group about a week or two, and I was like, yeah. No. They're not crazy at all. They're actually really highly informed on all things related to birth. Mhmm. And still at that point, it was, yeah, a home birth for me, but with a midwife. And I thought, you know, free birth sounds great. Maybe for my third child, not for my first. So here we were in Portugal and I knew I knew of somebody who'd had a home well, she'd attempted a home birth with a midwife and that ended up transferring.
Speaker 1
But that
Speaker 2
was the only person I knew in terms of, like, contact details for a midwife. And so I contacted her, and that was the first time I found out that it wasn't free. I just assumed it was since I come from New Zealand. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, oh, you have to pay money. Okay. Well, I didn't I didn't follow it up at that point. It was still still really early. I think I was only about, what, six weeks when we came back to Portugal, and we were focused more at that point on looking for land. Very early. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And, yeah, trying to get all of that sorted. But, also unrelated to that whole to the whole free birth, I was already starting to do my own sort of self prenatal care, like, just looking up the extra nutrition I I needed and taking extra vitamins and doing prenatal yoga, that sort of thing. Nice. And, yeah. And I'd also looked up, you know, what what typically happens at prenatal appointments, and I was like, if I just purchase a few extra supplies.
Speaker 1
Right.
Speaker 2
And, you know, I I can pretty much do this myself. So that was And that's that's the thing with this,
Speaker 1
you know, quote, unquote, prenatal care. Like, wouldn't it be wonderful if prenatal care with a midwife or or, you know, God forbid, a doctor actually felt like this nourishing, relaxed space with a woman, you know, with a wise woman who's familiar with birth, who, you know, can answer your questions and help you build your confidence. And, you know, I mean, I know some midwives are like that and and it's sad that that is not the norm, you know, because that's prenatal care. It of course, in my mind, it's not tests that you could ultimately do by yourself.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Absolutely. And, yeah, I don't think I see that this this midwife that I've been given the details for was a man, and I know something just didn't You
Speaker 1
see my face right now? Yeah. No. That's a hard no for me.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I yeah. So it just didn't sit right with me, and I was trying to be, you know, open minded to be, like, you know, Portugal is quite a traditional country. If this is a male midwife, you know, maybe he's quite, you know, open minded too, so I should but it yeah. It still wasn't something I was going straight into and I wasn't rushing to get into contact with him. When I was around fourteen weeks, we went and had an ultrasound done. It was yeah. It was it wasn't it wasn't easy process. I thought it was quite simple. We'd book an appointment, but Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Eventually, we got yeah. We figured out how to how to do all that because we're navigating the language barrier as well.
Speaker 1
Right. Yeah. So neither of you speak the language?
Speaker 2
No. Even even now we've been here, what, three years? We we speak I guess all of our friends are foreigners as well, so we don't have to speak Portuguese. Mhmm. We know, like, some basics, maybe a hundred words all up, but not enough to converse.
Speaker 1
That doesn't feel like the easiest language either for for, someone whose English is their first.
Speaker 2
Yeah, no. It's, I think it's a lot more challenging than like Spanish. Yeah. Sure.
Speaker 1
Yeah. I would agree. Okay, so you're in this country where you don't speak the language. Yeah. You're trying to find land to buy, you're trying to figure out, you know, who's gonna be with you at your impending birth, you go get an ultrasound, and what was the impetus for the ultrasound?
Speaker 2
Well, I hadn't really heard anything. I I didn't know that ultrasound wasn't, you know, something that everyone does. To me, it was just ticking the boxes. I was like, right, I'm gonna take charge of this, go do my own ultrasound. It was yeah. Yeah. So I went to me prepared, you know, I was looking at, oh, what do I have to do in preparation for an ultrasound? And I'd seen something about, was it making sure you have a full bladder because it makes it easier for them to see.
Speaker 1
Uh-huh. So I
Speaker 2
went in there with this full bladder and, yeah, I didn't I didn't really like the whole the whole experience. It was I found them quite rude, like, at first I assumed that they just didn't speak English because they just keep speaking to each other. There were two people in there to each other in Portuguese, but but then she said something like, oh, you have a really full bladder. I was like, yeah. Thinking, yeah, I'm gonna get some praise for being prepared and she's like, yeah, you shouldn't have done that. Yeah. And then yeah. They didn't really speak to us at all unless I, like, made the effort to make a let you know, cut into what they were saying to ask a question. And I'd also seen because I yeah. I was fourteen weeks and I'd seen at that point they only do external ultrasounds.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And so I got a real surprise when they just put it straight inside me for an internal ultrasound. I was like, oh, okay. That was unexpected. But, so, yeah, that was the only ultrasound we had it. To me, it just ticked the boxes of, yes, there's just one baby and this is where the placenta is, that sort of thing. Mhmm. So
Speaker 1
Which, of course, I need to say to anyone listening, the placenta, you know, position doesn't matter at that that time because it will change. Right? Oh, yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 1
So then how was the rest of that pregnancy and birth?
Speaker 2
So, where do I go from here? I guess I was Yeah.
Speaker 1
Tell me kind of, like, what you wound up deciding for your birth team. Did you find a midwife, or what did that look like?
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I was looking more into free birth and knowing it was definitely something I wanted to do. I was a bit nervous about, telling my husband. He at some point he, you know, he asked what when we'd be meeting with with the midwife and I told him I wanted to do it by ourselves. He he wasn't keen on the idea for our first child. And from his point of view, he trusted me and he trusted my body and knew I could take care of the baby, but he wanted someone there for him, I guess, in case something happened to me. He didn't want the responsibility, I guess, in case, you know, suddenly I, like, bleed out and he was just, I don't know. I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1
It's funny that so many people think that it that the first baby, it's like you have to prove to the partner or to the family or to the doctor or to yourself. You have to, like, prove that you can birth without an emergency to give yourself permission. You know, I hear that all the time. It's very it's an interesting, it's an interesting way of thinking about birth that that the first one, you know, it's not unique to you guys at all. It's extremely common that, oh, well, we'll just have the first one in the hospital and the second can be at home, or the first with a midwife and the second can be freeborn. It's so interesting, this like, we have to prove, but but it also comes with a true, like, lack of understanding of how unique birth is. Right? Because
Speaker 2
Yeah. He could,
Speaker 1
you know, the first birth could be totally different than the second birth or the third. Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2
Like, yeah, you could have a totally normal, like, first birth and then second birth, it doesn't go quite so well. Mhmm. But, you know, it's not like it sets the stage for
Speaker 1
Exactly.
Speaker 2
For things to come. Yeah. So
Speaker 1
So what'd you wind up deciding?
Speaker 2
So what we decided to do, he he asked me to, to just seriously look around for somebody else, like a midwife or even just a doula or just someone for him to call if he felt we needed it. So not someone that that would definitely have, but just in case he was like, oh, I'm feeling out of my deep fear. I'm gonna call this person.
Speaker 1
Well, that makes sense. So That's Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Because that's what this is about. Right? Like, ideally, we would all be birthing in community where we didn't have to find some random stranger to be able to call. Like, ideally, you know, birth would be so normalized out of hospital that, of course, you'd have a team or a community of people who could be present should you want it or could answer questions. That's
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And and I I really love, like, when I'm thinking back on it, just he never ever suggested that we'd go to a hospital or anything like that. It was always gonna be a home birth, so I'm I'm really glad about that. So, yeah, I looked around for more. I found a female midwife who was maybe two hours away, but I couldn't find any contact data details or testimonials for her. And then I found I found something similar to Ina Mae Gaskins' bum Oh, cool. In in Spain, but it was probably maybe an eight hour drive away. And, like, I was in touch with the midwife there and she was happy to come and stay, but knowing that, you know, knowing how the time frame for birth, it could be anything from, like, thirty six or forty three plus. I was like, I don't know if, you know, we also didn't have a setup for her to stay, So it's not like we just had we were just living in our van. We didn't really have anyone anywhere for her to stay if she'd come for that. I couldn't find any doulas. I found a mother who was wanting to become a doula, and she was kind of open to the idea of attending that, I think oh, no. Yeah. She ended up putting me in touch with somebody else who'd had a free birth. And this person, her husband had been in this exact same position as mine, just wanting somebody to call if they needed it. Sure. And so she she gave me the details for this midwife, another male midwife, and, but he he was a lot cheaper than the first one I'd heard about. So I thought, okay. Well, you know, it's a lot cheaper if we have to call it, call him then, you know, we're not spending too much. We yeah. We didn't end up using this midwife. I got in touch with him and I really did not like him at all. He was insisting on things like, what is it, an ultrasound, you know, at this point I was about thirty six, thirty seven weeks, and he also had a very high transfer rate, so
Speaker 1
I was like, okay, guy, you're not you're obviously not what I need. Thanks.
Speaker 2
No. Yeah. So I think, yeah, thirty seven weeks, my husband just said to me one day, do you think you can do this all on your own if I'm not even there? I was like, oh, yeah, for sure. I'd been, you know, envisioning it in my head for months, so I knew what I was doing. And he was like, okay, fine. Let's do it then. And so he was happy for us to free birth. And we just I've we'd I'd mentioned it to our families and they weren't keen on the idea, so we just let them believe we were still going to have a midwife. And then I guess when was that? I was thirty eight thirty eight weeks in six days. Yeah. The day before I was thirty nine weeks, and I had Braxton Hicks all day and I was just in a really grouchy mood. I was just, I had to keep, like, going to the toilet and emptying my bowels. It was like a really it was a rainy day and the toilet was outside and I was just really not happy and I thought I've still got weeks to go, you know. First birthday typically are maybe around like forty one weeks. I was like, oh, I have to put up with this for so much longer. And then I think around, later on in the evening around seven PM, I think, I noticed the contractions where I could actually time them. And I thought, maybe this is actually happening, but they were really irregular, you know. They could be anything from, like, two to seven minutes apart and really long. They could be, like, twenty seconds or, like, seventy seconds. It was really, really different. And so I decided to get everything set up, and my husband was like, oh, we're having the baby. And I thought, see, oh, maybe. But just in case, everything's all set up for us. And we went, we went to bed, we watched a movie, and then I think, yeah, we decided to sleep. I was still like time in the contractions, but they were a regular. And then around one AM, I hadn't really slept. I'd dozed for a few seconds and that was about it. Around one am I woke my husband and said, right, I'm getting way too uncomfortable to stay in bed, maybe start filling up the pool. So I had him fill up the pool. It was, it wasn't a quick job. We thought it would take, like, an hour or two because we don't have any electricity or running water or anything like that. So he,
Speaker 1
What time of year what time of year was this?
Speaker 2
This was March, so it was spring. Okay. It was yeah. I'd kind of we'd had some warm weather, so I'd been hoping that we could birth outside, but it was it was cold and rainy that day. So we had the birthing pool set up in the awning, and, yeah, he was just filling up the water in there, boiling on the stove in the caravan and then taking it out into the, into the pool. And it ended up taking about five hours, I think, just to get it warm enough for me to get into. And yeah, it didn't end up, yeah, it didn't matter so much that it took so long because I was still just kneeling. I was kneeling on the ground, hugging my, like, Swiss ball head, like a big blanket over me and just just getting through them. I, I wasn't sure where I was. I was, they were still a regular and I would just keep telling myself, yes, this is hard, but a regular contractions, that just means that it's still early labor. So even though, like, I couldn't stand or talk through them, I keep trying to down myself, it was still early labor. And it wasn't until oh, yeah. I got to a point where I was like, this is really hard. I can't do this. Maybe we should go to the hospital, and then and then I vomited and I was like, okay, yeah, no, cool. So this is transition, it's cool. And then I hid a push, and I hadn't realized how different contractions and pushing were. Like, this was just like, you know, vomiting out of my vagina basically. And I was like, what was that? And, and then I lost my mucus plug and I was like, oh, okay. Great. You know, things are finally happening. Pushing has started. It'll be like an hour, maybe two tops because, you know, that that's what I'd read in preparation. And by this time the pool was warm enough for me to get into. So I got in and, you know, my husband. You know, boiling water to maintain the heat and it was, it was still hours and I couldn't, I like, I felt in for the baby and there was just nothing. And I keep thinking, why is this taking so long? At some point I felt something come out and it was, but it was the amniotic set. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. Things are slowly happening. That's fine. But, you know, this was exhausting. It wasn't painful. I didn't mind the pushing. Like, I didn't find it hard. I just found it really tiring. And so, when was it? I think yeah. It was about four and a half hours after the pushing started that I've yeah. His head was finally, you know, starting to come out and, that that took so long. Like when I read, yeah, it took me, you know, two or three pushes and the head was out. It took me maybe an hour from when I first started feeling it to it finally coming out. And I, yeah, I yelled out to my husband, you know, the head's out and he came and sat down right next to me and, and then the body followed like a few seconds later. And I pulled Who,
Speaker 1
it was just the two of you?
Speaker 2
Yeah. It was just the two of us. We had our dogs as well and, yeah, so it's just, just us. And yeah, so I pulled the baby up and I realized I'd pulled it up. I'd wanted to like check for a new cord first and I couldn't get him much, much closer to me. So I had to get my husband to help unwrap the cord. It was around his neck twice. And then, you know, once he'd done that, baby was on my chest and he was, you know, screaming and we saw that we had a boy that was, it was just, it was so perfect. It was yeah. And that was yeah. That was my first birth, I guess. Yeah, the only thing after that was that, the placenta then took a couple of hours to come out.
Speaker 1
How many? It was,
Speaker 2
it was only two and a half. Oh, that's the one was. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. And I it came out after I went to the toilet, and I was like, okay. Yeah. No. That's fine. It's no problem. And it was all whole and intact, and then I and I had no tearing or anything like that. It was, like, great. Yeah. We did it. It was it was our first baby, and we've done this. Beautiful.
Speaker 1
And how did your husband do since he was nervous? How was he during the actual birth?
Speaker 2
He was he was honestly perfect. Like, he didn't have any anxiety at all. He was just, like, really chilled out, just filling up the pool and messaging our family back home to keep them updated. You know, he never he he wasn't panicky at all. And
Speaker 1
Yeah. I hope it's that that's what I hear and and see so often is these men being, you know, nervous, understandably, that this is not the norm in in the way that we were raised. But then when the labor actually drops in, I really think the vast majority of men do know how to, and it's just very natural to just relax into it, you know, and and to see that this is, not the crazy scary, you know, thing that that has been painted for them. And so, it's nice to hear that because I think that's that's very common that, you know, there's this anxiety leading up to it, kind of feeling like you need to prepare for every horrible thing. And then labor unfolds normal and naturally, and and the men are great, and they're solid, and and they're wonderful, support.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Like, I remember he asked if I, I think he had music on at some point and I asked him to turn it off, and he asked if I wanted to if I wanted him to hold my hand, and I didn't. I just didn't want to be touched or hear anything and and he was so good, like, just, yeah, didn't touch me, just stayed quiet. I I found if he was if I couldn't see him, I started to panic because I didn't want him to miss anything. But if he was there but not looking at me, it would make me a bit nervous if he was staring at me. Mhmm. But if he wasn't, if he was just chilled out and I could see him on his phone, then I was like, yep. Everything's good. Everything is smooth. This is going
Speaker 1
well. Awesome.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So So you got the
Speaker 1
free birth that you were envisioning?
Speaker 2
Exact yeah. Yeah. It was yeah. Exactly what I wanted, and it was so perfect.
Speaker 1
Beautiful. I I guess when we had scheduled this, I didn't realize that your first birth was a free birth. I thought it was just your second.
Speaker 2
Alright. Yeah. No. It was both of them. Awesome. Yeah. So cool.
Speaker 1
Okay. So then so then yeah. How was your postpartum, and and then take me into this next pregnancy, and how far apart were they?
Speaker 2
Right. So postpartum was it was pretty good, I suppose. I found breastfeeding really hard, only because it I just listened yeah. I just listened to your lactation one this morning and it really, I found breastfeeding really painful and that it was only really painful on one side. And I was, you know, messaging with family and friends and on Facebook groups and people were giving me advice like, oh, change, change the way you're holding the baby or check, check the way they're latched on or look for a tie and those sort of things. And none of them seem to help, like changing the latch or the hold, but it was only ever painful for, like, ten, fifteen seconds, and then it would just, like, slowly dissipate. And after, like, a minute, it was fine. And it was it was always the same like that, but it wouldn't be every time. And it faded away after, like, five weeks on my left side. It was just all gone, that sort of pain. And on my right side, I think it took three weeks. And I was like, oh, well, that was just sort of a strange thing. And it wasn't until I was fourteen months postpartum and my cycle returned and I experienced the same pain again and I realized, oh, it was actually hormones. I I was like, oh, so that's why it hurt. And the same sort of thing when I got pregnant this second time at the in the first trimester, I guess it hurt a little bit as well when I was nursing my son. Totally. I was like, oh, right. So it's a hormone that have caused this.
Speaker 1
Exactly. I remember it was my first pregnancy that that I had my daughter with and I remember, my nipples in the first trimester, like, even if and I do not have sensitive nipples, which turned out to be great for for breastfeeding, but even if, in the beginning, if if the sheet on my bed even grazed my nipples, I would be like, what is that? It was so intense. So, yeah, I can't imagine breastfeeding while you're going through that.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Ouch. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But fortunately, you know, by the time he he was a month old, it was all normal and fine and Mhmm. Had no problems after that. And I think the hardest part I actually found postpartum was having people around. Like, I guess a lot of people have come onto your show and talked about how they needed a good support network. Mhmm. And like I love having visitors over and I love love showing them off, but for me and my husband as well, it like exhausts us whenever we have company.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
So we we just really need that sort of space to just be us, I guess, to do what we're doing and get to know the baby and that sort of thing. So I guess the second yeah. So my cycle returned when he was fourteen months postpartum and then, yeah, we started trying a couple of months after that. And because we've gotten pregnant, like, straight away with my son, we assumed it would be the same the second time around. Mhmm. And so I was quite surprised that, you know, that I didn't get pregnant that first month, like, oh, what a surprise. And then it ended up taking us six months, but it was, I guess it was kind of good because I had new found respect for people who, you know, struggle to fall pregnant and, you know, for the ignorant comments that people have experienced in miscarriage or infertility or just don't want to have kids, you know, that they have to put up with. Because I know each month, I'll be like, oh, no. Is there something wrong with me, or do I have secondary infertility? Or but, yeah, obviously, it was fine in the end. I got pregnant in that six month. And it was I found out a week before our ten year anniversary, so I waited a week before telling my husband and then I gay I baked like a big cookie and it it said, what does it say? Baby number two on it, and my son gave it to my husband as, like, a wedding anniversary gift. Yeah. Not wedding anniversary, first date. Yeah. Mhmm. Cute. So how was that
Speaker 1
pregnancy with with a toddler?
Speaker 2
It wasn't it wasn't so bad. I think the the yeah. My pregnancies were very similar, pretty easy. Like, I never experienced any sickness in either of them. I had, I was just hungry. Both pregnancies, I was like extra hungry. And I think the hardest part was my nursing aversion. So I like, I really wanted to keep breastfeeding my son and I still am. He's now, what, two years, eight months old and we're still going maybe like once every couple of days, but it was, yeah, those last four months of pregnancy was so hard to get through because I just couldn't stand it when it relatched on and it just made me feel so guilty because he really wanted it and yeah, it was tough. And, yeah, to me, that was the hardest part.
Speaker 1
Totally. Yeah.
Speaker 2
That's that's a big thing. I think yeah. And one of the best parts is probably, like, where we are here in Portugal, we've now made quite a lot of friends, all foreigners from, you know, different backgrounds, really diverse ages as well, and, you know, different countries and everyone is so supportive of pre birth. Like, I
Speaker 1
Wow.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I have not had to put up with any sort of negativity. Everyone's, like, so positive and excited for me and Oh. Yeah. I love that. Like, just being Wow. That's huge. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Yeah. I I experienced that in Maui, and was very grateful for that because I went there when I was super pregnant, and everyone I told and everyone I talked to, yeah, it was just not a big deal. I got no fear mongering, I got some confusion, like, I remember one waitress from Brazil asked me, when when I would be induced. And I was like,
Speaker 2
why don't you sit down?
Speaker 1
Why don't you sit down and and let me tell you about what's going to happen?
Speaker 2
I shall enlighten you now. Yeah. That's awesome. So, okay. So good
Speaker 1
to know about Portugal, about the culture there.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. I think it I think it's just more of this, like, foreigners, like, this community we have. Everyone's, like, you know, really independent thinking, sort of open to new ideas and yeah. I really love that. It's like not having to put up with people asking me about, like, doctor's appointments and things like that.
Speaker 1
Well, and so much of it too is, I mean, the lifestyle you've chosen attracts those kind of people. Right? So, like, you know, your your, you know, hippies living on a farm in a in a, you know, motor home in a in a foreign country, like, of course the people you're gonna attract are, like minded in that way, versus if you were maybe, you know, like some women who free birth are, you know, still living in the small town they grew up in, in a conservative, you know, part of, of a, you know, let's say, the Midwest of America, and it's like, well, of course then, that's gonna be different. But same thing with me, you know, because I moved around so much. It's like, when you move to a new place and you intentionally create your new community, of course, the people you'll attract are, totally into it.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh, I love to hear that because we're moving back to New Zealand next year and, like, to to live and to, like, set up this lifestyle in New Zealand, and I've been so not looking forward to leaving the community behind. But you saying that, I'm like, oh, yeah. We'll probably, you know, be able to, like, you know, create Of
Speaker 1
course you will. You. Yeah.
Speaker 2
It does. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And you it's just your energy field. Like, you are going to attract. Obviously, you're not gonna become friends with someone who's like, oh my god. You did what? Your baby's gonna die, blah blah blah. Like, that's just not then you're gonna be like, cool, we're not gonna probably hang out again. Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. It sucks making friends as adults because it takes so much effort and, you know, moving to a new place and building community of course is a lot of effort, but at the same time, it does give this freedom of newness and that you do get to filter through, because you don't have the history, right? Like, if someone's lived in the same place for so long, there's history and and family roots there in a way that, you know, is different. You kinda have to take take the whole thing versus, you know, moving and restarting. Yeah. You absolutely will attract the right people.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. It's nice to know that we'll be able to find something else, I suppose.
Speaker 1
So take take me to, take me to this this little one's birth, which at the time of this recording was just shy of six weeks ago.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, when I'd I'd had my son at thirty nine weeks and I had been expecting that I would have the second baby at around the same point possibly sooner. So I've been so prepared for this baby from, like, thirty seven weeks, and she came around forty one weeks. I was such as so surprised that, oh, why why could I be wrong? You know, I just I just thought it should be coming earlier. But, yeah, that it was fine. It was, I had so many Braxton Hicks, regularly, but I think from about thirty four weeks, it would yeah. I'd have, like, a handful a day, and I just got so used to just ignoring them. Mhmm. I guess yeah. Just before forty one weeks, I was just, like, I was just out doing I think I was about doing the dishes or the laundry or something. I was like, hey. I think I've had a few breaks in it, like, just quite close together in the last, you know, little while. Maybe I'll start timing them. This is at, like, six o'clock at night. I was about to start cooking dinner. My husband was outside playing with our son, and then, yeah, it took about half an hour while I was cooking dinner to be like, yeah. These are pretty regular. These are, like, spot on every five minutes. Yeah, I'm gonna go, let my husband know. So I, he, he started getting the pool ready, like, he'd already pumped it up, but just to pump it up a bit more and sit at a place outside, you know, got some fairy lights and my son and I had some dinner and we danced together and played with his cars. Yeah, it was really, it was really quite, quite magical, I suppose. It had been like a really cold windy day, but then the wind just like died down. So it was still cold, but like still fun to be outside. And then I think around eight o'clock, my son asked to go to bed, so I, I missed him to sleep and I was just like holding him go, this would be the last time I go to the only child.
Speaker 1
Oh, did you cry?
Speaker 2
No, I sort of like taking a photo, but it was dark and I didn't want to put the flesh on and wake him up. And, So I came out of my husband's set up, like a movie for us to watch just outside in that awning, right right in front of the pool where I was going to have the baby. And I was I was, walking around, yeah, just walking through the contractions. They were just steadily getting stronger and stronger. And I couldn't, I couldn't ever tell with the second birth when I went from like early labor to active labor, it wasn't like distinct. It just like was a gradual sort of steady, steady strengthening, I suppose. And then around nine o'clock, I I walked away from the movie to, like, have a contraction and then, like, my water just broke and, like, splashed all over the ground. And I was like, oh, okay. I looked at my husband and we both laughed like, that was weird. What a strange sensation. Right? Yeah, because I've never had that with my son and it was like, oh, okay. And he gave me like a towel to dry myself off, but then it keeps like trickling down. I was like, like, well, this is quite useless. So I'll just, I'll just leave it like it is. He had like a fire going, so I was just standing next to the fire to keep warm. And I asked him to stop pulling up the pool now. And so I just kept watching the movie and standing next to the fire. And, and then I was, you know, walking away and like staring up at the stars during each contraction. And it's, I was, yeah, I was starting to like imagine I'd heard people on your podcast, I think, talking about how they just envision themselves, like, opening up to let the baby out. So I was I was doing that during the contractions and also telling myself I can do anything for sixty seconds. Mhmm. And it was, yeah, it really helped. I don't think any of my contractions were longer than maybe forty five seconds. It was Nice. Yeah. So it was it was bearable. And I kept I kept really wanting transition. I was like, I just want to get to transition. I wanna reach that point where I wanna give up because then I know
Speaker 1
You and every woman in labor. Exactly.
Speaker 2
I was like, is it hard enough yet? Well, it's hard, but I don't think it's too hard. Okay. And then I reached a point, I think, where I couldn't really walk through them anymore. I was just like kneeling on the ground during them. And I was like, oh, this is, you know, I don't want to keep walking. And my husband asked if I wanted something to lean on. I was like, no, I'm getting in the pool now. I think it was around ten thirty and I can't remember if it was just before I got in the pool or just after, but I remember I was kneeling down and, I felt like a strange movement and I was like, oh, what was what was that? Like, at first I thought, oh, the baby's changed positions,
Speaker 1
but
Speaker 2
I thought, no, no, no, it hasn't because, it wasn't a significant movement and then I forgot about it. So I was in the pool. Oh, I forgot to say that I had noticed meconium leaking around I think it was around nine thirty, about half an hour after my water broke because I checked it right after and everything was all clear. And then I checked again around nine thirty and it was, yeah, it was dark. And I was like, oh, okay. It's it's fresh. I went and grabbed my fetoscope to check the heart rate, and I was, you know, listening listening really carefully, and it was still strong and steady. I was like, okay. Cool. Yeah. No. The baby's not in distress. We're all good. And, so then I got into the pool, and it was just oh, it felt so good. I, like, I think I fell asleep. It felt so amazing. It was, like, ten minutes at least, I think, of just nothing, like, no contractions or anything, and, it was so relaxing. And then they started up again so much stronger. I was like, okay. So that was giving me a break before it got. And I was like, this is really hard. I don't wanna do this. And I was like, okay. Yes. I've reached I've reached transition. I don't wanna do this anymore. And I think I had another two or three, and it was a weird sensation, like, it was like a contraction and a push at the same time. And I was like, what is this? You know, what's happening? What you know, what what phase am I at right now? And then I felt down and I could feel I could feel something, and it felt soft. And I thought, oh, this kind of feels like the amniotic sector with my first son that that burst, so it can't be that. Mhmm. And then it just kind of, like, bulged out a bit more, and I was like, okay. Is this is this part of my own body? Am I swelling up? And but but nothing felt wrong or it didn't feel painful. I was like, well, I don't think it's that. It doesn't feel like a hit. It's, like, quite soft. But, yeah, I decided I I just, like, kind of ignored it and keep going and I was like, right, like really? Exactly. I was like, I can't do anything. I'm just gonna go with it. And then I felt it come out and I yelled out to my I was about to yell out to my husband that he's out and then I reached down, I was like, you know, this is definitely not a hit. And I was just I could not figure out what it was. And like a second later, like, legs and arms came out too. And I was like, oh, well, it's breach. Okay. When when did that happen? Like, I checked I checked the baby's position and it wasn't it was head down. So what?
Speaker 1
Sneaky little little baby.
Speaker 2
I know. Yeah. So I was I was in total shock, but not So you
Speaker 1
had been feeling the little butt?
Speaker 2
I'd been feeling the bum. Like, I'd even wondered, is the head inside there somewhere? But, yeah, it was yeah. It was, like, I wasn't panicked or anything. Somebody asked me later, they're like, oh, but you must have, you know, started to freak out. So I was like, no. I guess it was you get into that mode where you're like, fight or flight. You gotta Mhmm. You know, there's no sort of time to pass.
Speaker 1
Exactly. And it's and it's but I would actually maybe even say it's not fight or flight. It's like deep, deep presence. You know? It's it's deep maternal instinct where, you know, you're just in it. And and also, I will add that surprise breaches are chill because they're surprised. So, by the time Yeah.
Speaker 2
You know,
Speaker 1
for most stories that I hear, by the time you realize it's breach, it's at emergence. So, you know, what are you gonna do? It does it actually doesn't make any logical sense to panic. Right? You have to birth your baby. You have work to do.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So Yeah.
Speaker 1
The arms is to walk me through the actual emergence.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I'm dear. I can feel, like, the legs and the arms and, I knew straight away that the baby was going to come out quickly. Like, I'd already told my husband this is going to be a faster labor. I can just feel it. Everything's moving, progressing faster. And then, you know, that time in the pool, I'd only been in the pool less than half an hour, and I could just feel, you know, everything's just going so fast. So I just knew that the baby was gonna come out, and I I thought of telling my husband, but I didn't wanna panic him because I also did not wanna go into deeps to explain it to him because I was, you know, I had a baby half out of me and I yeah. So I just wanted to focus. I was like, right. I've just gotta let go of any sort of fear of tearing, allow my body to just like get this head out quickly. And I just naturally sort of like went in the pool. Okay. I went into the center of the pool, like in an upright position, kind of like, I guess, in a half squat, half kneel. I have my hand just, like, tentatively, I guess, pressed up against the bum, and my other hand was feeling for where the head was. And then the next push, the head came out, like, literally all in one go. It was like, oh my gosh, I did not expect that all to come out in one go. And, yeah, I just yelled out to my husband, it's out. He, like, yeah, he had not expected that. He was sitting just, you know, a meter or two away in front of the fire and, like, jumped up. So, he was so excited. He, like, grabbed his phone and came over and we checked the baby and we did, like, the, what's it called? We test the, yeah, we yeah. The Apgar test and everything was all good and, like, yeah, we got
Speaker 1
mean you you guys just did your own Apgar test?
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Just I mean, by essentially assessing the baby, or did you have, like, a little scorecard, or what did that look like?
Speaker 2
He had, like, a piece of paper and a pencil, and Mhmm.
Speaker 1
He
Speaker 2
was like, okay. How's I can't remember what they are. How's the breed? Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. Took it all off. Oh, I forgot to say. Yeah. Because they'd been meconium, I'd been telling myself, right, just in case the baby, you know, inhales it. I I wasn't worried about it at all since the baby was born on the water, but I just wanted to make sure there was none on its face. And with my son, since he'd had the cord around his neck, I wanted to check for that before I brought the baby to the surface. So I like, you know, I turned the baby over with its backup and, you know, there was no, there was no nuchal cord and, you know, I had it's back up, like, so just in case there was any meconium around its face, it would drip down into the water rather than, rather than into its mouth, I guess, but there was nothing. And as soon as it was out of the water, it was screaming and my husband was asking me what, what is it? What is it? And I I asked him to go and get our son. And so he woke up our son so we could all see together and Aw. He just saw that it was a little girl and, yeah, it was
Speaker 1
Aw. Crazy. So she flipped towards the end of the labor, it sounds like.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I guess it was, like, at that point where I said I could feel the sensation, like, the baby had changed positions.
Speaker 1
Mhmm. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2
I'd say it was in that last half an hour. That's awesome. I yeah. I've been thinking about it. And, like, with my son, he hardly ever changed positions, like, right throughout. He was just, like, right, same position all through pregnancy. With my daughter, she changed quite a bit. She'd often go, like, posterior, transverse, back down, head down, anterior, and then with her coming up breech, I wondered if it had something to do with, like, where my placenta was. I don't know exactly where it was. Mhmm. I just know it was obviously in a good place, but, I yeah. I wondered if that was, you know, making her uncomfortable or, you know, stopping her from coming out.
Speaker 1
But definitely yeah. They have wisdom that we will never understand. Yeah. They work in mysterious ways. So then how was the birth of your placenta and and your immediate postpartum? Did she come out vigorous and crying or did she was she a slower to start? What what was that like?
Speaker 2
She cried so much. Like, my son did, like, just cried when he was first born and then he was, like, really chill and she was just crying and crying, unless she was latched on. She just wanted to nurse.
Speaker 1
I was
Speaker 2
like, okay, this is fine as long as she's nursing. With with my son, we'd burnt the cord, and with my daughter, we were going going to do the same thing, but, yeah, with her screaming, it was and once I got out of the pool and was all wrapped up in towels and blankets, it was just we couldn't find, like, a clear piece of the umbilical cord. I was like, no, we'll just cut it. So we cut it and my husband held it so I could go to the toilet and I expected the placenta to come out like it had the first time, but it didn't and it took and it ended up taking five hours Mhmm. After, and it was like I we went to bed and so I was like snuggled up, I had like my toddler on one side and the baby on the other. I was like, I don't wanna go to sleep until I've like bathed the placenta, like I just didn't feel comfortable. And I had like the baby, you just wanted to keep nursing and I had like my toddler who I had to get like one of them quiet and the other one would like wake up and I I just wish, like, looking back, I think that was, like, my own regret, there was that I wish I'd stayed up until the placenta was until I birthed the placenta just to make myself more relaxed because I realized it's because I keep going out. I think I went in, maybe, like, three or four times to MD my bladder, and I was like, no. I've always got a, like, a crying baby or toddler in the background, so I need to I need to be fully relaxed. So I need to acquire some men before I can get this out. And then once I did, once they were both asleep, it was yeah. I got it out and it was all fine and after yeah. That was it. Beautiful.
Speaker 1
Wow. Those are some badass stories.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I I just yeah, I really like, you know, I've had both births have been, like, in optimal conditions, like, I've never experienced anything else. And I'm like, birth is hard, like, I couldn't imagine having to do that with, like, somebody telling me what to do or trying to touch me or, like, having lights on or noise or, having to go in a car or
Speaker 1
I know. And that that's what we always yeah. That's what we always say and think about is any woman who is able to have a vaginal birth, you know, in captivity is amazing. I mean, what an extraordinary testament to the power of women and the power of our bodies and the strength of, you know, of of physiological birth, you know, with with all conditions trying to combat that essentially. It's really I guess what I always say to women who have, you know, who who who want to birth out of the hospital, but their first or or however many births happen in the hospital. It's like, you you're gonna be better at it than anybody else because you've already done it under essentially, like, in a battle, you know?
Speaker 2
Yes. Yes. Now
Speaker 1
you're gonna get to do it like your stories where it's just totally mother led and, you know, in your own flow and in your own home and and with just the people who know you intimately, like, that's you've got this in the bag.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Awesome.
Speaker 2
How
Speaker 1
beautiful. I love it. And that was such a nice surprise to not realize your first was a free birth. Oh, good. Yeah.
Speaker 2
I'm so
Speaker 1
glad you didn't have a male midwife there.
Speaker 2
I know. I know. And, like, now that we've done it, like, my husband and I were both, like, it would just be so strange to have another person there. Even if they were just sitting in, like, the corner and, like, leaving us alone, it would just change the dynamics. Like, we've got, like, our relationship as husband and wife that, you know, this is such an intimate sort of thing. And to have anyone else there, it would just it would just, yeah, be strange.
Speaker 1
I mean, it's like hiring someone to sit in the corner while you have
Speaker 2
sex. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1
You know? Like, obviously, you know, culture says that this is so dangerous and that you need all this assistance. And so I think that's a stretch for many people, but you you know what I mean. Yeah. It's such intimate energy and it it is sexual energy and it it does it does feel strange to have, strangers there.
Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah. And, like, see, because we'll be going back to New Zealand next year and midwives are free there And we we hope to have, like, maybe two more children, but I still want a free birth. So I don't, like, I don't particularly want a midwife there even though they are free. It was
Speaker 1
Well, and, you know, I would I would argue that maybe they are monetarily free, but there is a huge cost to them because you are you are accepting a free service that comes with a tremendous amount of limitation. You know? So what's the point? I mean, unless you wanna play that game.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Like, because the yeah. Just the what is it, the confined, I guess, to liability issues and things like that. Like, I I always think of, like, with my first like, so many people have said to me, oh, you're lucky you have easy births or, you know, you're lucky everything, you know, went really smoothly. I'm like, my both of my births would have been considered, like, complications. Like, the first one, four and a half hours of pushing, no one's going to let you do that.
Speaker 1
And the placenta?
Speaker 2
And the yeah. The placenta for both of them. And I think for the first one also, like, having a regular contractions right through. I've I know people are usually their labors are augmented to when that happens. And then the second one, the neconium and then the breech presentation, I'm like, no. They would have been considered complications.
Speaker 1
Right. And and the luck thing is so annoying because, I mean, you have to actually subscribe luck, first of all, which I don't know if I do, but also, then that's like saying you're lucky that you didn't get hit by a car when you went to the grocery store. You're lucky that when you got out of bed, you didn't, you know, pull a pull a muscle. You're lucky that you didn't choke when you ate your dinner. Like, come on. You know, like, we're not doing that to every other potential, you know, thing. It's it's just so speaks to the the way that we've pathologized birth, that when a birth goes well, you're lucky. Whereas, the truth is, birth is literally meant to go well. It wouldn't make any sense that, you know, we have, you know, how many billions of years of, you know, wisdom in our DNA and in ourselves, it it actually, you know, it actually really is a a way to deplatform your story and to take away, from the truth of your births, which is that, I wouldn't say you're lucky, I would say that you created an environment for the mammalian birth sequence to unfold as it is intended to, which is for your baby to survive, for you to survive in an optimal setting, and you did that. You know, and and yes, not all babies, you know, do survive in in all mammalian species, and that's horribly tragic, of course, but but it the truth remains that it is meant to, function and work, and and it does in the vast majority of births.
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Like, the yeah. To me, it's just doing every like, the physiological process, like, not messing with it, keeping everything undisturbed, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I'm excited to share this and, yeah, just totally badass stories. I I love it.
Speaker 2
Oh, thank you. Yeah. I was really happy to be on here.
Speaker 1
That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
