Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in child childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily
Speaker 1
Saldea. Are you craving a community of like minded women? Do you feel like an outsider in your family or your community? Well, I may have the place for you. We have a Freebird Society private online community that's full of radical and wild women just like you. If you resonate with the topics that we explore on this podcast and wanna belong in a circle of women who support each other in the self exploration of free birth and wild mothering, come join us. You can apply online at our website, free birth society dot com. It's where myself and my team are hanging out these days, and we would love to get to know you. Today, we have a wonderful talk between my friend Kristen and I about her second pregnancy and first fully autonomous wild pregnancy. Kristen has much wisdom to share as she reflects on the lessons she's learning and how she's navigating this space and time of her life becoming a mother of two. Kristen was on the first season sharing about her euphoric birth and difficult postpartum, so check that out if you wanna hear more from her. I'm remembering your story as I'm as I'm calling it forth in my mind right now and, that you had a pretty epic birth experience and and spoke about it so poetically and had this wonderful midwife, come in at the end and took some great pictures and supported you in in some wonderful ways. And my impression was that you had a very positive experience with with the attendance that you chose. And so, yeah, take me to now you go through a relatively challenging postpartum. I remember you calling it the underworld.
Speaker 2
And and
Speaker 1
and your boy is not that old. He's
Speaker 2
how old is he now? Twenty months now.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Okay. So so tell me about this pregnancy and, also I'm curious kind of the how much intention was was behind it consciously or not?
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, yeah, I had I did have a great first pregnancy and birth, and, like, I didn't have anything, that, you know, was, like, really standing out that I didn't want or, you know, I didn't have any interventions that I didn't want, and I liked everyone that was at my birth. And, so, yeah, that wasn't really an issue. Postpartum, I had some definitely some a lot of breast feeding problems, which I talked about in that other episode. And I'd say the most challenging months were, like, three to six months postpartum, and maybe that was because the first three months, I was, like, I did have a lot of support, and I was, like, doing all the things. And I thought, like, okay. For sure, this is gonna get better. Mhmm. And then when it just kinda plateaued and it wasn't getting better Yeah. It was like, shit. I'm just, like, losing my reserves and I you know, the sleep deprivation and all of that. So I would say months three to six were just, like, really challenging. My partner was working again, and I didn't have as many people around, so that was really hard.
Speaker 1
It's like the dead zone kind of.
Speaker 2
Yeah. It is kind of, and I've talked to other moms about that who feel kind of similar. It's like baby's still super dependent on you and needs you all the time. Well, it's
Speaker 1
like the same with grief. Right? When you lose someone close to you, those first couple months are usually full of support, and then there's this well, now it's a bad way to phrase it, calling it the dead zone, but there then there is this, you know, phase that can go on for, well, forever really. No one's really acknowledging it anymore. No one's really checking in and bringing you food and Yeah. But you're not in it. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And I didn't wanna I also didn't wanna just keep complaining about it all the time.
Speaker 1
Right. Right.
Speaker 2
I was sick of it.
Speaker 1
Totally. So,
Speaker 2
like, I
Speaker 1
don't know. Six months? What was the freshness.
Speaker 2
I don't know. Just something shifted inside of me and, think, like, you know, like, as the baby changes too and you're you're interacting in different ways and new things are coming, and I just felt like, you know, I was more at peace with our situation and the breastfeeding relationship that we did have, and I felt like, okay. Like, I knew I was just gonna keep going as long as it was working, and it was working at the time. So it wasn't my ideal, but it was it was still something. And, yeah, I just was like, you know, it's time to, like, keep moving forward and enjoy this time with my son. Like, he's so so little still. And so, yeah, that really started to shift. And then, you know, you go through phases. Like, around twelve months, I started sleeping a lot better. He, like, magically slept through the night, on his own, and that shifted a lot for me too. I just felt like I had a lot more energy and Totally. And then we had been so we were planning a move, and that was around I was, like, fourteen months postpartum. And, like, this all happened at the same time. Like, we were moving
Speaker 1
Oh my god.
Speaker 2
We were going to stay with my family for the summer. We were putting our stuff in storage. We had been living, like, in Orange County for six years, so it was, like, a pretty significant step. And, we were thinking about, like, when we would wanna have another one, but we were so that was, like, in our in conversation, but we pretty much knew that we wanted to wait until after we had settled somewhere else and, like, you know, found a new flow with our life. But I think, like, just even opening the dialogue of that, gave this baby the opportunity to be like, oh, yeah. Sure. Let's do this now. Yeah. So it was just like so many things colliding together that that had to happen for this baby to be conceived because I was tracking my period and, like, tracking ovulation and all of that. And
Speaker 1
So how many months postpartum did you conceive the second kid?
Speaker 2
I was, like, fourteen and a half months.
Speaker 1
And then did you figure it out pretty quickly? Mhmm. And how did that
Speaker 2
figure out? Out pretty quickly. I was really, really surprised. Wow. Oh my god.
Speaker 1
Because we
Speaker 2
had we had a little bit of a mistake, like, during that cycle and I knew it. And I was like, I mean, we never that never happens. Sorry.
Speaker 1
You're like, what are the chances?
Speaker 2
I'm like, what are the chances? It's like the one time we've been together for almost ten years, like, come on. Yeah. Give me a break. And my son had been breastfeeding more so because he was sick, so I felt like maybe my ovulation was off anyways. Mhmm.
Speaker 1
But I
Speaker 2
was just, like, total chill about it. I was like, yeah, my period's a week late. Whatever. And yeah. And then, yeah, I just, like, was, like, wow. Like, this is for real. Like, this is really, like, I'm definitely pregnant. Woah. And, yeah, it was hard at first because I was, like, I was living with my brother at the time. We weren't in our, like, normal environment. I did have a lot of my, like, normal creature comfort stuff, and, so it was just, like, unsettling. Even just the,
Speaker 1
the experience, which I haven't had yet because I've only been pregnant once. I I'm trying to imagine the experience of discovering you're already pregnant. Like, that I know most people that is how babies come. But that really is just wow, like, what a. Yeah. I mean, wow. Okay. So, yeah. And you're totally not settled. You're in this big transition already. Yeah. You've finally gotten the hang of things with your kiddo and and Yeah. This past a year.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, and, you know, like, it was kind of like, okay. Well, we we both kinda felt like we wanted to go forward with the pregnancy. Like, you know, of course, we had a discussion around doing a termination, but we were both like, no. Like, that's not even that's not what we wanna do. Like, we know we wanna have another kid. Like, we just need to readjust things to make it work a little bit easier for us now. So but that was hard because, we had been, like, I had been thinking about my next birth and, like, thinking about what that would be like and, we kinda had some plans around that, like, what we wanted to do and how we wanted to prepare for that. And I knew that wasn't gonna be possible that it was happening so soon.
Speaker 1
So Do you wanna speak to that at all? What you
Speaker 2
Yeah. Sure. So we were hoping to, like, save some more money and for the next birth be able to both of us take time off work and
Speaker 1
Oh, gotcha.
Speaker 2
And, like, go out of the country to birth. And for a lot of reasons, that is just, like, not possible right now. Right. My husband's not a citizen, so we, like, need to wait on that and just some other, like, other financial pieces that wouldn't have come into place in time. So I was really bummed about that because I was, like, really wanting to birth outside of the US and, Third baby. Yeah. I know. So, I just felt really sad about it. Yeah. It was just like I had to let that, you know, I cried about it a lot, and I just kind of had to let that process be what it was and not force it to go away right away or, like, you know? Yeah. So that was really hard, and then I was, not feeling great. Like, it wasn't terrible, but, like, it was also, like, you know, pretty intense. And we left my brother's house, and we went to stay with my mom, which was great because she was, like, able and available to help more with my son, and it took some of the pressure off me just around that. And so that was, like, the gift of this early pregnancy. It was, like, I was in a position where I didn't have to work, and I had my mom around to, like, cook
Speaker 1
That's awesome.
Speaker 2
If I needed or take my son out for an hour or whatever. And so, yeah, that was, like, even though it was really, really challenging, it was really sweet just to have that time with her. And, yeah. So that kinda takes us through, like, the first trimester and, I mean, that whole time I wasn't really thinking much about where we were gonna end up moving. Like, that was still all up in the air. I was just kind of, like, day to day living. Like, okay. Just, like, this is what's happening right now. This is, like, my real situation.
Speaker 1
I didn't realize in your transition, because we're also friends in real life. I didn't realize that when you were, figuring out where you were gonna land, you had already uprooted.
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that was, like, the plan the whole time is, like, let's go stay with my family for the summer, and we'll, like, go check out Colorado. We'll go check out these places, and then we'll decide on what we're gonna do next.
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2
We had some ideas, but, like, nothing was really for sure.
Speaker 1
Okay. And so you're living day to day. You're getting through the first trimester. And how do you start compassing towards, you know, not seeking outside prenatal care and and diving into this this free birth
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Concept.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I think I had kind of already been so turned on to that during my first pregnancy and, like, even though I loved the care that I got and, like, I really liked going to check-in with my midwife, like, that was not problematic for me in any way. It was also kind of like, okay. Well, like, yeah. Is this really necessary? Like, what what am I gaining from this? So that's what I just started asking myself, like, if I were to see someone, if I were to see anyone, a midwife, a doctor, whoever, like, what what can they provide for me that I want or need? And, it was just kind of like, well, there's nothing really right now that I need. So I just kinda kept checking in with that, and and, yeah, it's just kind of been like that. It's like, I just don't feel I don't feel like someone else can provide me something that I don't already have. If that changed, then maybe I would seek an outside resource or something. But, yeah, I just kinda felt like it's just normal normal life. Like, there was nothing outside of the ordinary happening to me.
Speaker 1
That's how I feel about pediatricians, and and it's really hard for my mom to wrap her head around this. You know, it's like, yeah. If something is happening with my baby that I don't understand, of course, I would seek help and assistance and resources, but as long as it's within the range of, what I'm understanding, I don't I don't actually need the extra support
Speaker 2
or help Right. Or input,
Speaker 1
you know. And, and so, yeah, I'm hearing a a similar theme with your story.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I knew, like and another thing is, like, even if I wanted to get blood work done or something, like, I could just do that myself. Like, that's not a huge huge thing to do. And, yeah, I mean, all the some of the prenatal testing, like, I'm I denied a lot of that the first time around anyway, so I'm not really I don't really feel like I'm missing out or, like, something's missing. Mhmm. I did
Speaker 1
I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Speaker 2
I was just gonna say I had one ultrasound in my first and, like, it was kind of not the best experience, so I was happy to not do that at all.
Speaker 1
So where are you at now in your pregnancy?
Speaker 2
Now I'm twenty six weeks.
Speaker 1
Okay. So you're you're well into it. Mhmm. Yeah. You're approaching the end. And so, you know, obviously, the the intention or idea of this of this episode with you was just to dive into the work that, this pregnancy and and and specifically doing it, you know, autonomously and and having it be the second pregnancy after your first experience and all that comes with adding a second kid and going through postpartum again, which wasn't, super easy for you. So so, yeah, let's let's get into that. So Yeah. Being twenty six weeks pregnant now, when would you say the real, like, nitty gritty work started to come up?
Speaker 2
That happened, like, about two to three minutes after I found out that, like, after I took a pregnancy test. Fair enough. Fair enough. I think just because it was unexpected, there was so much for me to navigate in the beginning around that and around control and, you know, timelines and and, like, you know, having this plan, and we, like, really wanted another conscious conception. And it's like, okay. Well, we knew we wanted to conceive again. So, like, it's not like it was totally off the table.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
So, yeah, there was just a lot for me to navigate in the beginning around that and around feeling like we needed to make a decision on the move and where were we gonna end up living and and coming to the realization that, like, I kinda needed to yield to my body in this situation and, like, where, before it had felt good to maybe consider, like, changing environments pretty drastically, then, like, all of a sudden in the physicality of being pregnant, it was like, I just need a familiar environment. Like, that's the reality of what I'm experiencing day to day is, like, it was really hard for me in the summer. We were when we were staying with my family, we're staying in Kansas and I grew up there, so it's like you'd think it'd be within my range of normal, but it's been so long since I've lived there full time. It was extremely hot, extremely humid. I was nauseous, so, like, every time I would go outside, it was just, like, the worst combination ever.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
I mean, I think every pregnant person can relate to that. So, and I just that was constantly in my face and reminding me of, like, actually, I just I can't not prioritize what my body wants. Like, that's just not an option. So that was hard because it was like we really wanted to kind of find a place that we felt more in community and, yeah, that felt like a more permanent solution, but that wasn't happening. Like, my body was just, like, take me back to the environment where this little egg was, like, growing in because that's what I know. And, so that was really interesting, in the beginning. So, yeah, that started in the beginning, and then, let's see, moving through the pregnancy. I just had a lot of, like, through that transition, we moved back to, Southern California area, just not Orange County. So we're in San Diego County now. And through that transition, there was just a lot of ups and downs and emotional processing that was happening. And it was just so much that I kind of just it was like I had to really, really surrender to that process and stop trying to figure out how I could fix it or make it better Or and that's not to say that, like, I wanted to just, like, wallow in self pity or something or, like, be super depressed, but it was just, like, wow. It's today I feel really shitty. And then the next day, I would feel fine, and it's just, like
Speaker 1
What do you do?
Speaker 2
Up and down. And it's like, yeah. What am I gonna do? And it was being reflected to me through my toddler too. So it was just like this huge dance of, just yeah. Like, I think I'd mentioned to you just, like, really sitting down with myself and being with myself and not pathologizing what I was going through and not making it something, you know, giving it a lot of meaning, I think, like, that it means something's wrong with me or that, you know, that I don't want this baby or whatever it is.
Speaker 1
Like, over analyzing everything.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Over analyzing every emotion that I felt instead just, like, letting it process through my body and then, like, you know, net tomorrow will be, like, totally different.
Speaker 1
Like they say in yoga, bless it and let it go. Yeah. I love that. And, you know, and it totally brings up the the truth that that, you know, all suffering comes from our thoughts. Right? And
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
And the resistance to what is is, where is the origin of suffering and pain. And so you you are physically, you know, experiencing in the first trimester, experiencing, you know, the the very normal ebbs and flows, that that are inherently challenging, especially with a child. But then the next layers of actually resisting it and and, yeah, all of the all the headiness that comes with the why is this happening? This isn't what I wanted. All of that makes it actually very easy to go into a place of suffering, versus, it sounds like, what you were playing with versus just riding it and letting it be what it is.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And I think through that process, I mean, you know, continuing through my pregnancy, like, I kind of just knew that I wasn't gonna seek care unless something major I felt was wrong. So I was really just focused on that emotional work and, like, I felt like I had the space to do it, if that makes sense. Like Yeah. I just felt like I wasn't worried about what test was coming next. I wasn't worried about my next doctor visit or midwife visit. I wasn't
Speaker 1
Well and you weren't basing your experience off of what strangers say to you. Right.
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know,
Speaker 1
I mean, that's that's what I see all the time and I'm sure you do too is is not everybody, but but when people are seeking quote unquote care, which often it it doesn't resemble care at all, you know, and and somebody's telling you how you are, it it, like, dumbs down or creates this very real blind spot where, you know, it women stop checking in with themselves. Yeah. I mean, it's just, you know, it's Yeah. It's it sucks that that's true, but that has been what I have seen again and again and again. And so this not not, you know, going against that paradigm and and actually turning in, which I'm not saying you can't do both. I I think that there is a way, though very challenging and very rare, but there is a way to hold your autonomy in the system to a degree, but the entire setup of the system is to have you be submissive and to tell you how you are. And so Yeah. You know, when you have these wild pregnancies, it's surprising how much work there is there that, because it's a turning in. Right? Because everything is is happening within yourself and surfacing and, there's nowhere to go with it, right, except for you to do the work.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Totally. I mean, yeah, I I completely relate to that. And even just, like, looking back at my last pregnancy, I mean, I did a lot of work during that pregnancy as well. But there is something to say about, like, not having any outside assistance or care, like, from someone else. Like, it is a different experience. That's for sure. And, I mean, it is one of those things. Like, I can even see just certain situations where I've, like, taken a little more responsibility to do something if I had a question. If I was like, I wonder where my bay my baby's placenta is. I wonder this. I wonder that. Instead of thinking like, oh, I can ask my midwife at my next visit. I'm like, how could I figure that out intuitively now? So that's been really interesting too. It's just like, oh, I can actually totally kind of intuitively figure out where my placenta is. Like, that's not that hard, you know, basically.
Speaker 1
I mean yeah.
Speaker 2
Just my baby moving and, like, what I feel and, like, it's just
Speaker 1
it's not complicated. Paradigm shifting to really, you know, I I feel like a lot of the kind of spiritual culture says it all the time, but to actually, actualize the truth that the answers are inside of us, you know, that's that's really deep, you know, because I I remember in in my second trimester when when I felt like the work was really kicking in for me, I would have moments or or experiences where I really craved validation, and the validation being I wanted someone else to tell me my baby was normal and my baby was growing and healthy. And I also was unwaveringly going to not choose to go do that. And so, sitting in that and being like, why do I want that? What what are they gonna give me? What are the tools they're gonna use? What is, what is it that I'm looking for outside of myself that I'm not able to give myself, and can I give that to myself? And it was beautiful. It was so beautiful and uncomfortable to sit in that space between the lie that someone else can tell you everything's fine. Yeah. That that was really what it was, is I I was playing with that lie that that, you know, cultures told us, you know, for so long that, like, a doctor could just tell you everything's fine, which is not true. We know that that's
Speaker 2
Right. Right.
Speaker 1
And so what does it feel like inside of myself? Not necessarily to always be able to say, I undoubtedly know my baby's fine, but to sit in, I actually maybe don't know in this moment, and and how does that feel to just be in that? Yeah. Which I think mentally prepared me very, very well for for my birth.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. No. That totally makes sense. I can definitely relate to that too. It's yeah. It is just kind of like and, I mean, like I said, for me, the processing during this pregnancy has been, like, way more emotional and, like, cultivating resilience and, just expanding my, like, embodied capacity to feel and be with, like, everything that's present simultaneously. And, yeah, quite honestly, like, less has come up about just the physicalities of being pregnant.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
Very, very rarely have I thought, like, something's up or something's not right, or I've just kind of felt like I feel fine. So, like, my baby must be fine too. Mhmm. And even if it's not, what am I gonna do right now? Yeah. Nothing. So, you know, what's the point of, like, going down the rabbit hole, so to speak? Mhmm. Yeah. Worrying about something that is probably not there.
Speaker 1
And that you can't really control it at all
Speaker 2
at this point. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, there's nothing I can do about it. Yeah. It feels like totally just like a normal part of my life. I mean, yeah, obviously, my body's changing and, like, things you know, I'm making adjustments, like, caring for my toddler and stuff. Like, I'm not carrying his him as much as I used to and, you know, small things like that. But overall, like, it's been pretty easy in terms of, day to day life. Like, it's just kind of, like, yeah, part of
Speaker 1
Well, and I guess before before we were recording, you were speaking to kind of the, not to put words in your mouth, but, like, the like, letting it be easy. Letting it
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Letting it be so normal, all of that.
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's come up a lot too. So, like, we have I have, like, all this emotional intensity going on, which it's kind of subsided now. Like, I'm in a little bit of a different place than, I would say, the first half of my pregnancy. But, even while that was happening, like, I felt the pregnant pregnancy itself was, like, easy. And it's like, can I just let that part of my life be easy? Can, like, I just, like, I fully trust this pregnancy. I don't have a lot of fears coming up. Like, is that okay? Is it okay that it's just, like, this, that I feel good about it? Like, that I feel like it's just a part of my life? So it's like, I think, almost like I was wanting someone to give me permission to just, like, let that part be okay. Mhmm. You know, like, obviously, I wasn't doing that or seeking permission from someone or whatever, but it was, like, I could notice that coming up internally, like, wow, this is really easy for me. Is it okay that something's easy for me? Yeah. You know, like, there are other areas of my life that are challenging right now.
Speaker 1
You better let some parts be easy. My god.
Speaker 2
This part is easy, and that's okay. And, like, how can I let that penetrate my system more and, like, really just, like, enjoy that this is easy?
Speaker 1
Right. And such a big thing, letting it be easy. I mean, in a culture that, you know, is so fearful of pregnancy and and womanhood and birth and postpartum, what a big thing to claim that that you aren't fearful. It's it's almost, you know, not allowed to be said, you know, that Yeah. To yourself even, much less out in a public space. So how does that how does that feel to to declare that you're not fearful?
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, for me, like, what I noticed just happening is, I just feel like that my I feel like my voice is, like, really clear and confident and coming from a deeper place than if, you know, than if I'm talk speaking to something else. But I just feel like that is actually true. It's like I'm not afraid and that's okay. And, yeah, it just feels like it's so necessary to let that, part of me have a voice, like, externally too. And the thing is is, like, I know women who are birthing more in the system with the second or third, and they're also not super afraid in some cases. Like, I was just talking to a friend of mine who's pregnant with her second, and she's birthing, at a birthing center, and she she said it's kinda similar. She's like, I just feel overly confident, and, like, she wouldn't wanna tell someone else that. Mhmm. So that's yeah. It's just I think it's interesting to to think about, like
Speaker 1
But you've also you're already a mother. I mean, you've also Yeah. It makes even more it you know, in a way, it's like you you already have street cred. Like, you've already you've already gone through it and had a wonderful experience, you know, in your birth, in your pregnancy. And so it makes sense to me that, you know, it's not like you had a horrific, birth, you know, where you walked away with these lies about how broken your body is. I mean, okay. That person is gonna have some stuff to work through. Yeah. You you have, like, a touchstone, you know, of of what it can be and and what it most likely will be. Again, of course, a different story, but Yeah.
Speaker 2
Of course.
Speaker 1
A healthy, normal, you know, wonderful birth. So then I'm wondering kind of then when we when we transition into postpartum and envisioning that because that was a challenging space for you last time, Do you feel nervous and fear coming up around that? Like, how are you holding this wonderful confidence and and fearlessness and, trust, it sounds like, in in in the space that you're in right now, in the space that you're moving into the birth, you know, how are you, like, letting that charge also rewriting your postpartum and wondering how your head's, yeah, just kind of landing with do you feel nervous about postpartum?
Speaker 2
I mean, I feel nervous about pieces of it, but it's more about the unknown pieces of, like, having a second child and how that's gonna change the rest of my family. So I think it's, definitely my concerns are more around, like, how's my son gonna respond? Like, how are we gonna, you know, integrate a baby into our life? And, as far as, like, the postpartum challenges I had with breastfeeding the first time around, I I mean, I kind of just, like I mean, I've worked through a lot of it, and I kind of just feel like there's no way it could go exactly the same way it went last time. It's just not, like, it's just not probable. Yeah. Yeah. So I have that experience. Like, already, I have more experience going into this time. Like, I'm still gonna get, you know, some extra support for after the baby arrives, but I'm not really thinking too much about, like, well, if I have this breastfeeding problem or if I have that, I'm gonna do this. Like, I'm just like, I have a lot more resources than I did the first time around. I have a lot more experience, so I kinda just feel like it will go better. And I'm I'm not also not super worried about that, like, day to day.
Speaker 1
Well, it sounds like you are deeply trusting your internal resources too. Even your resources to access your resources. Yeah. Like, your internal resources that that, you know, you're you're you you've been through it. You're wiser. You like you said, you've already, yeah, like, accessed, you know, external resources, you know, how to prep a little bit better, whatever it it may be. And and, of course, how could that be anything but confidence building? You know, it's such a nice perspective. And I think, you know, and I wish I saw more repeat mamas, you know, after having their first kind of call on that, you know, because I think a lot of women really fixate on what went wrong, quote unquote, you know, the the things that went wrong or the things they didn't like and fiercely being like, I have to rewrite this and it can't happen again, and that is not invalid at all. That makes complete sense that that would be where ahead would go. But, you know, I think that we have to be careful of giving it so much energy that, we actually are fueling, you know, that quote, worrying is putting energy towards something you don't want. Right. Right. And and I see women really fixate on Yeah. What whatever it is. Maybe it's the breastfeeding didn't go great or the, you know, the birth or the tearing or whatever it was that happened. It's like you gotta let yourself have a new story because if if we know anything about birth, you know, every story is so uniquely different and every postpartum is quite different.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
And so, yeah, just, like, letting yourself have that wisdom and and relaxation around it can only fuel a better energy.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I I agree. I think it's just like, you know, it is gonna be different, and there may be something else that comes up that I don't expect, and, like, I'll deal with that. Like, that's it's not something I wanna like like I said, I just don't wanna spend a lot of time worrying about that right now because it doesn't seem like a useful
Speaker 1
Yeah. And this I really
Speaker 2
useful thing to do.
Speaker 1
This really is, to me, getting into the the real edge of why this stuff, free birth, wild pregnancy, whatever, is so completely paradigm shifting for for us all. Because, this really is, like, we have culture over here saying, prepare for everything, you know, something fucked is gonna happen. Yeah. You know, or at least it might and so you better be in captivity with a NICU and with an OR and and and statistically, you know, we all know that that's actually not true, that that very very very very very few moms and babies, need significant assistance. Right. So, you know, but because it's painted as we're all just random targets and you never know who it's gonna be, which I don't think is completely true. But emergencies do happen, we all know that of course, they're very rare. And and with a healthy normal, you know, mom and a healthy normal pregnancy, it is it is extremely likely, not even just like a little likely, it is extremely likely that you could or would have a normal physiological safe birth at home. And so, you know, back to my point that I feel like we're getting into this intersection of, why this is such a big deal to make these choices because you're actually saying, you know, and I completely resonate with it, I trust my inner resources and whatever happens, I'm I believe and trust in myself that I'm gonna be able to handle it. And when Yeah. When we're able to sit in that space of life, not just pregnancy, not just birth, but of life, it feels so calm. And and the reality is you actually will be able to access your inner resources better from a calm, relaxed, you know, trusting space. You know, and I think this is where so many people who who just cannot wrap their head around these choices that that you and I and so many women we know are making, because of the the obsession with the what if. You know, just the obsession with it. And and I I do a lot of coaching sessions with women who want to go over, the emergency stuff, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Of course not. But there's no way I or a doctor or anyone could prepare anyone for every single possible iteration of emergency, at all. It's just not possible. And so if if you are someone, you know, that's listening, that is obsessing over all the possible complications, I would actually say I don't think you're a good fit for, for having a a fully unassisted, you know, home birth where you're you're the kind of only one there that's that's weighing in on this. Because if you can't get out of that space, it actually will be harder to tune into your instincts Yeah. Into and to drop down into theta and to really, relax into the the the physiology of of your birth sequence. Anyway, so, yeah, I just I think it's so cool because in a way, it's like the most simple statement in the world to be like, I'm just relying on my inner resources and whatever happens, like, I got it, and I totally feel the same way, but really, wow. What a what a mega statement to make about, you know, your life as a woman in this world because that is not how we're raised. That is not how we're treated. And particularly in our reproductive experiences.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just
Speaker 1
Like, it's become radical to trust, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 2
I was just gonna say, like, I just kind of trust myself, like, what's the big deal Right. Really? But, yeah, it is really a radical thing to to, prioritize your inner like, you were saying prioritize your inner resources over, preparing for every potential potential thing that could come up, every potential situation or complication or, and, yeah, I I think, you know, like like you said, it is it's totally valid. Like, if there's something you feel like you need to know to prepare for free birth, like preparing for some type of potential, emergency, then, yeah, do that. Like, that's a totally valid thing to do, and you just you can't prepare for all of it. So in the end, you kind of have to have something else to resource from. Like, you're not gonna always be able to find, like, the answer in your mind as quickly as you might think rather than resourcing from what's actually happening in your physiology.
Speaker 1
Right. Like, it sounds like you'd want a doctor there. Like, if you're gonna you know, like and that's totally fine. But if you are the objective you, you know, if you are, committed or addicted to pathologizing your experience, then go play where they pathologize everything, you know. And that's completely fine if that's the arena where you feel comfortable. But I I see so many women kind of on the fence and and I and I get it. It's it's really it's not a critique at all, or a criticism, you know, of women being drawn to this and kind of interested in it, but still very much having the majority of their spirit in the medical paradigm of, like I said, you know, really being focused on the fear. And and it you know, people say that birth has fear has no place in birth and I don't actually agree with that. I think that Yeah. I don't think that's necessary. Yeah. Me either. I don't at all. I think that, yes, fear and trust might, you know, they might be on opposite ends of the spectrum, but, I actually think, you know, that that our capacity to hold all of it, is is very wide and very capable. You know, and I mean, I didn't really feel feel much fear about the actual birth process. You know, and and like you were saying, just like waves of thoughts in my pregnancy, especially the further on it went would come through and I would just be like, woah, that's crazy. You You know, like, I remember just being like, does it have a face? Oh my god. It doesn't have a face. It doesn't have a face. And and, you know, I'd trip out for a couple minutes of like, oh my god. You know? And then I'd be like, okay. Well, not that I can do about that. What are we gonna do? I guess we'll find out in a couple months.
Speaker 2
What are
Speaker 1
you gonna do? And but this is, it's it's it's, you know, how they say they, that quote, you birth how you live. You know, it's just it's so true. You know, you die Yeah.
Speaker 2
How you
Speaker 1
live, you birth how you live, you live how you live. And so, if you are living from a space of self inquiry and, exploration and where you are either already have achieved or you're learning how to ally with yourself, you're you're gonna you're going to have you're at least going to have the resources to compass towards a powerful experience.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. So that's I mean, another thing that's really come come up during this pregnancy, like, once we kind of settled in San Diego and, like, I was doing a little bit of work again and stuff, and I was still, you know, meeting to tend to myself a little bit more and, like, resting more, and I just kind of realized some places where I was, like, holding on to valuing myself as what I'm producing, like, out in the world and, like, what I'm contributing that's outside the home. And I think that's just like a reflection of where we are culturally right now is, like, that's kind of what we're indoctrinated to value, and mothering is not really valued. Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of people say it's valued, but, like It's not. The thing that's bound to us is, like, clearly telling us that this is definitely not valued culturally or societally. So that I was kind of pushing up against that a little bit. And I feel like with one child, it was like, I could still maintain, like, a good amount of productivity and, like, have a good flow, like, after the first initial three to six months or whatever. But now with adding a second, I feel like, woah. You're acting. Yeah. Basically, I'm just giving up the next two years of my life. Oh, man. And I I mean, I do kind of I'm like, wow. I just really have to yield to this phase of my life. Right. My children are totally a priority. And being with them when they're babies, like, that is top priority. Like, we will make big changes to make that happen if necessary.
Speaker 1
So And it's such a short time in the grand scheme of, you know, a hundred years or ninety years
Speaker 2
or whatever
Speaker 1
it's gonna be hopefully, you know, to look back and and go, okay. Yeah. I I maybe pulled back my work or didn't work or whatever for five years of my life or even ten years of my life Yeah. Even another kid. But, yeah, that shift to what you just said about from one kid, it's like, yeah, I could still be relatively productive. Yeah.
Speaker 2
It's like you're relative.
Speaker 1
I have no idea how that's gonna look. Oh my god.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I, like, I'm just kind of, like, you know what? And part of me has just totally taken a fuck it attitude, like, honestly. Nice. It's freeing. Which, like, is kind of just, like, what, you know, it's kind of freeing because I'm, like, there are certain things. Like, I do care about the work I'm doing in the world. I do wanna continue doing it. And, like, at what cost? Like, I'm also not gonna, you know, exhaust myself to do it. And part of the work I'm doing is just in the way that I'm showing up to the work that I'm doing, which is kind of interesting to think about, but, like, you know, it's kind of about, can I make this a priority and live this actually in my life? Right. If I'm gonna be, like, working with women in this way and, like, for a longer period of time, then this is the phase where I need to also be, like, more internal and, like, more home focused and,
Speaker 1
Right. Because you're not just an acupuncturist.
Speaker 2
You are
Speaker 1
you are so many you know, you're bringing so many roles and personas and and, not just skills, like, actual roles in the world to the table. And yeah. Of course. So so to bring the mother to the table for a longer period of time and you know? But that is it's all like, they're all together at
Speaker 2
the table. You know?
Speaker 1
You're you're gonna be teaching your clients, by way of doing this.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So for me, it's just about, like, being realistic with what I'm able to do and, like, knowing that and I, you know, I do have some experience. Like, I did go through that first year postpartum, so I kinda, you know, I know what it's like to have a baby. I don't know what it's like to have two. I mean, and to me, my twenty month old, like, he's still a baby to me now. I mean, he has a lot of of needs. And, so, yeah, it's just, like, lowering my expectations of what I'm, you know, what I'm gonna be able to do in that first year or Yeah. Even two years or however long it takes and just giving myself value just in being here on, you know, just being part of life and, Well,
Speaker 1
it's like it's like that role of the mother. You know, we talk about the death of the maiden and then birthing into a mother, but as you're reborn into a new mother of two, you know, like, who you were as a maiden with no kids, what you could accomplish out in the world, looked very big. Right? And then you have one kid and you, like, gotta hone in, and then you're gonna have two and hone in even more. And, obviously, I mean, it's cheesy, but it's totally true. Like, the work you're doing with your children, for this dedicated period of time is the work that you're doing in the world. And
Speaker 2
Right. Exactly.
Speaker 1
In a society that, like, is totally phoning it in on all fronts with how how they treat mothers and and, you know, devalue mothers. It's really it's almost, like, not allowed to say that, hey. I'm gonna take this time to to have this be my contribution. It's such a big deal.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. No. It really is. And, I mean, that's also been a gift too because, you know, I'm like, it's made me more effective in the ways that I do work and the ways that I do wanna, you know, participate in something external. Like, I'm just a lot I have a lot more boundaries around that and a lot more, discernment, I would say, like, around what I do wanna do and what I'm like, I don't have to do that. You know? Mhmm. Whereas before, I would maybe be like, sure. I'll do that or, you know, like, I just didn't have as much discernment around, professional or, like, outside, of the home work life stuff. Well, and I
Speaker 1
love that as you're expanding your capacity to hold all of this stuff, you're also affirming your boundaries.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
Speaker 1
Both both are happening at the same time, which totally makes sense. What would you say if you had to kind of boil it down to one big lesson, you know, or or one kind of thread that has kind of been, like, the lesson so far of this pregnancy? How could you what would you boil it down to? I mean,
Speaker 2
I think more of that will unfold with time, but, like, you know, as this pregnancy continues. But I definitely think it's around, like, cultivating emotional resilience. So just really not pathologizing emotions and actually, you know, allowing them to move through the system. So that has been a huge piece. And then the other part is around, yeah, this piece around, like, allowing things that feel good to feel good, allowing things that are easy to be easy, and using that as a resource, like, really drawing from that for the other challenging parts of your life. Mhmm.
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I'm wondering for people who are listening, who are hearing you say, you know, not pathologizing your feelings and and and who that's kind of a new concept to, Can you speak to maybe your process of how you're doing that or or, so I'm sure I'm very sure that there's gonna be women that hear that that are like, I don't even really like, how do you do that? What is how do you yeah.
Speaker 2
I think, like, for me, it was just instead of it was just like this place inside of yourself where it's like you're starting to feel something, sadness, grief, depression, you know, whatever that you might have an aversion to. And instead of, like, immediately trying to do something to get yourself out of that, instead of immediately, like, getting the mind involved and being, like, why am I thinking this? Like, starting to judge the feelings or going immediately to some particular tool to help you get beyond it, just letting it actually be there. So that meant, like, some days I would just, like, cry for a while or, I would just really let myself be sad if I was sad. And, like, I wouldn't try to get myself out of that because I knew that I would not like, that the next day would be different or that I would naturally come out of that again. I don't know. I mean, it's it it kind of comes after, like, a lot of years of doing this work in small doses, and, like, this has just been, like, a culmination point for me for whatever reason that I probably don't know.
Speaker 1
Well, and having the the maturity and the kind of allied ship to yourself to know that this will pass, I think, is really huge because if, you know, like, I I I don't have depression so I can't speak to it personally, but from what I understand about having depression, you know, it's this feeling of hopelessness where you don't actually believe you're ever gonna get out of that funky feeling and so it's really hard to be in it because it feels, infinite, you know, and and so big. Whereas, I think, you know, when you don't have depression, you know, you can, you know, generate this feeling of, trust in that your feelings are just feelings and that they're all temporary and that they flow in and out. And and so then you can have the safety in them where you're really, like you said, like, you can really just sit in it and let yourself feel all of it, with this trust, you know, that that I think, yeah, is a very mature trust to remember even in the thick of it to know that it'll pass, which gives us permission to feel it.
Speaker 2
Yeah. It is really about, like, not fearing that, that it's gonna swallow me up or something.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
You know? And I think that is such the, like, indoctrinated tendency we have towards emotional life anyways. It's just, like, we're afraid if we go too much in one direction, like, we're never gonna get out of that. You know? So So run, run, run.
Speaker 1
Highlight everything. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And there's so much power in going to that that darkness and those depths because that is where some of your deepest truths lie. And and and there's a huge power in facing your darkness and then coming out of it, and then being on the other side of it and being like, oh my gosh, look what I just accomplished. I just faced my fucking demons. I didn't turn away from them. I let myself feel my darkness or whatever it is, and I I now have the experience again and again and again or the practice of getting past it, which, yeah, of course, would just give you so many tools to navigate anything that life throws you.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think you can you can only, you know, you can only go so far in the direction of joy, like, as you're able and willing to go in the direction of, you know, the opposite if you wanna call that darkness or sorrow or whatever. It's like that pendulum, like, it swings back and forth. We're not perpetually in one. Reality. Like, you can't have one without the other. So
Speaker 1
I mean, everyone just numbs out. They're like, I can't do both, and so I'm just gonna stay central and numb out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you feel moving into your pretty not too far off in the future, free birth? How does that feel to have kind of made that decision, and and how does it Yeah. How does
Speaker 2
it, like, feel? I mean, it feels great. Like, I'm super excited about it.
Speaker 1
It'll just be your husband and your boy, or
Speaker 2
what do you Yeah. So it'll be my husband and my son, and then, I'm considering although I haven't really decided if I'll have, like, a friend or a doula type person there or at least available, so that would probably be it. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, I'm just feeling really excited about it, honestly.
Speaker 1
And any any trepidation of having your son there, or have you been infused with some really beautiful stories hopefully, or
Speaker 2
how's that possible? Just reached out in the Freebird Society group about that today. So Oh, really? That's fine. Get back. Uh-huh. But, yeah, I mean, I'm definitely I want him there for sure. At least, I want him at home. But, yeah, there's some trepidation just because my husband was, like, my main support person last time, so I'm like, I know my son will most likely need support in some way during Yep.
Speaker 1
Speak of the doubt.
Speaker 2
Yeah. During the birth.
Speaker 1
Well, unless it's just a nighttime birth.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 1
Happens all the time.
Speaker 2
So, yeah, there's some concern about that, which is, like, where a friend could come in to help or Totally. Something like that. So we'll see. It's not like I'm super worried about it, but that is one thing my husband and I talk about probably the most in preparing for the birth is, like Mhmm. What are we gonna do with little Theo? Mhmm.
Speaker 1
He'll just be there.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Awesome. Yeah. I think this is all really good stuff for people to chew on and, anything else you wanna say before we close?
Speaker 2
No. I don't think so right now. I mean, I'm just, yeah, I love the work that you're doing. I'm so excited about being in the Free Works Society group and, like, learning with the other women. It's cool. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's great. And I just, I'm so yeah. I'm just so excited to birth again and I've really learned so much during this pregnancy and I'm just happy to share, really.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. It's cool to talk about the work because, you know, I'm sure a lot of women go through this stuff and don't have anywhere to kind of untangle it or process it with with like minded women. So, I thought this was a cool idea to Yeah. To track your your process. Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 2
Awesome. Yeah. Thank you.
Speaker 1
That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
