Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in child Saldea.
Speaker 1
Saldea. Are you craving a community of like minded women? Do you feel like an outsider in your family or your community? Well, I may have the place for you. We have a Freebird Society private online community that's full of radical and wild women just like you. If you resonate with the topics that we explore on this podcast and wanna belong in a circle of women who support each other in the self exploration of free birth and wild mothering, come join us. You can apply online at our website, free birth society dot com. It's where myself and my team are hanging out these days, and we would love to get to know you. This week, I sit down with the incredible Julia Jones from Perth, Australia. We talk about baby brain and the importance of understanding how our brains change when we have a child. We get into the significance of learning about our own ancestors' birthing traditions, and Julia shares with us the common practices that she's found in cultures around the world. Julia shares her own postpartum experiences and how she learned to lead with the question, does this bring me peace and joy? So with that, let's just start at the beginning with you and just tell me a little bit about her as much as you'd like to or any story that weaves into. I know you said before we were recording that you started at an early age. So, you know, when you when you kind of go back to what it felt like to hear that call and how how that call for your work has been curated in your life, tell us kind of contextualize that for us.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And it certainly is a calling. I think most people who work in birth or postpartum or anything like that, it really does feel like a vocation. I actually started out studying social justice. I've always been really passionate about about human rights and women's rights. I did a lot of work with indigenous women, with, young people, and, you know, just never really quite found my feet in my career. But but then I actually after I, after I finished university, I traveled around India for a whole year volunteering. And, I got really sick because most people do in India. And I actually then discovered Indian Ayurveda. And that was just really opened my eyes as well. I really, really loved it. And I loved how holistic it was that there was this whole system that wasn't just, you know, like, here's the sickness and here's the pill, but it was about not not even just your diet and you know, but also the way that you move your body and the amount that you sleep and, but also that it was about your spirituality and it was also about your, emotional health and that all that all ties together, particularly with your unique constitution that everyone is an individual and that everyone has individual needs. So that was all fascinating and it's still a huge part of my life. But I really wanted to study Iveragh, but what I really then found was was actually the the Iverde postpartum care. And I learned that in India, the way that they look after their mothers is so so different than what I ever experienced in Australia.
Speaker 1
You were not, a mother yet when you did your year in India, I'm assuming?
Speaker 2
No. I wasn't a mother yet. And I knew I wanted to be a mom soon. So part of me wanted to actually go back to South India and study Ayurveda, but that takes six years. And I was like, oh, that's not really on the cards for me right now. But then when I found about Ayurvedic postpartum care, I was like, that's it. That's exactly what I've been looking for. And it kind of it tied together all my, kind of, feelings that I wanted to do service, that I wanted to be about transformation and and empowerment, and human rights and all of that kind of thing. So and I just saw such a great whole. I mean, that was really part of it was just seeing that enormous need. And for example, in Australia, and it's the same in the states, the leading cause of maternal death is suicide. And that is just mind blowing, you know, that we can take care of a person's physical health without any regard for their emotional and spiritual well-being, and with no support for that enormous transformation in their lives. So partly, it was, you know, Seth Godin has a really great blog post that's about calling your finding rather than finding your calling. And he talks about you just do something that you're good at in an area that something needs to be done. And that's, you know, the meeting of those two things is really how you find your calling. And you don't wait for it to come to you. You just take action and you get started what you're good at, and you find what needs doing, and you do it. So, you know, and then it becomes more and more of a strong calling and a strong passion over time. So, yeah, I was twenty four when I, started studying postpartum, and I didn't have my own children yet. And I was quite frankly disappointed with what I found. There was no local postpartum training in my town at the time. I studied a lot online. I did about five different courses, and they were all interesting. They were all good in their own way, but they still really never went beyond teaching basic baby care and breastfeeding. And they didn't really address what I could see the problem being, which was that it's enormous spiritual and emotional transformation. And they didn't teach me as a professional how to support a woman through that, or even what was actually happening to her. So that was sort of how I started. And then I then I was like, okay, I have to look outside the paradigm because the current idea we have about postpartum in the West is not enough. You know? It's not answering this pivotal key question. So what was a really huge turning point for me was learning about this idea of baby brain, that your whole brain changes when you become a mother and that that's actually a really awesome thing. So tying in the changes that happen in your brain with the traditional ways of looking after women from all over the world, and you realize those two actually are one and the same. You know, it's just a different way of looking at the same thing and, a different way of seeing the same problem and the solution. So that is really now what I'm most passionate about.
Speaker 1
So can you give a little more information around what you mean when you say that baby brain is actually a positive thing and that it and that the whole brain changes when you become a mother?
Speaker 2
Sure. So we actually, most of us know baby brain as a negative thing. We're taught that we're, you know, emotional as though that's a bad thing. Forgetful, ditzy. Hormonal. Hormonal, stupid, you know, like, it's a really negative thing, and that just really is a sign of the patriarchy, you know. So I think it's really time to reclaim that word and understand what it really means. And what it really means is, there's two major areas that have changed that happen in your brain when you become a mother. One of them is related to oxytocin, which probably all of your listeners are very familiar with the role of oxytocin in birth, but perhaps not so familiar with the role of oxytocin in the rest of your life. And when you when you become pregnant, you get more oxytocin receptors in your uterus, obviously, in your breasts, obviously. But what people don't really understand is you also get more oxytocin receptors in your brain and it actually changes your entire Worldview perspective. You know, and and those changes can actually last forever the other main area of change that happens in your brain when you become a mother I call loving. So it's easy to remember learning and loving. So sorry. Loving is the oxytocin. Learning is plasticity. So our brains aren't fixed. For a long time, people thought they were fixed, but, they're not. They're always plastic and they're always changing. But there's biological peaks of those changes that happen in your life. One of them is puberty. One of them is being very young. The way that babies everyone knows babies' brains are very plastic, the way they can learn so quickly up until about the age of three. And it happens again to teenagers, and it happens again when you become a mother. And again, we don't we don't acknowledge these as rites of passage and particularly the motherhood, aspect. That's not even seen as a as a thing, you know, but every time we step into a new role, of course, our brains like, okay, time to learn new skills, time to get new priorities. And so this combination of the increased plasticity and increased oxytocin, it really, changes our brains forever. And, you know, there's so much research. I could talk for weeks and weeks about all of the improvements that happen in a mother's brain. But it really is a very transforming experience. But without support, those changes can actually be completely overwhelming and sometimes even cause long term stress, You know, so whilst you're going through this rewiring, it's really, really important that you have some social support, respect, a sense of value and, you know, the recognition of the changes that you're going through. And that can lead to positive changes. But on the other hand, the way that we neglect and abuse women in our current system means that a lot of the time, those changes actually feel quite negative.
Speaker 1
Right. Because support is integration. Right? If you have support, you can integrate these changes and these shifts, and without the support or the respect, which is such a great word to put into this mix, without those two things, the integration process can actually be harmful. It can be Yeah. It can be almost impossible. Right? It can be survival. What is it? Survive, not thrive?
Speaker 2
You know,
Speaker 1
that's that's totally. Yeah. That makes so much sense.
Speaker 2
Really interesting study by done by a woman called, Marion Diamond. She was one of the world's first women neuroscientists. One of the world's first women to be accepted to university to study neuroanatomy. And she was so highly respected even all this time ago. She's passed away now. But even all this time ago, when she was such a pioneer in her field, she was respected enough to be, given permission to, study Einstein's brain. So that was a huge privilege and a sign that even as a woman, she was massively respected in her industry. But, of course, that didn't come overnight. And for a lot of women who go into these traditionally masculine, fields like science, it took her a really long time to have her her studies be recognized and and acknowledged. And one of her primary contributions to science was this idea of plasticity. Until Marion Diamond came along, people actually thought that our brains were hardwired for life and that after you went through the rapid change of, of baby, you know, being an infant, that that that was it. You could never learn. You could never change. That if you had a, you know, a brain injury, you could never recover from it, which seems quite ludicrous to us now that we understand how much our brains, can change and adapt. But she was actually the first person to discover that. And the way that she discovered that was by studying female rats. And still today, there's a bias in science and medicine and research to study male rats because they're thought to be less hormonal where they don't, suffer from the same cycles as women do. So you can get more reliable and consistent.
Speaker 1
Of course.
Speaker 2
Oh, God. And this is still true. People still believe this even though, you know, it's it's not correct. It's been proven not to be true. But Marion was one of the first people to study female rats. And so she got a, a bunch of rats. They were male rats, female rats. Some of them were pregnant. Some of them were mothers. Some of them were not mothers. And she put them into two different groups. Some of them went into what's called an enrichment program, and that means that they get wheels and tunnels and toys and mazes and all these things to enrich their brain to stimulate them. And the other half of the rats went into, what's called an impoverished environment, which has meant that they had very bare cages, they had very little stimulation, they didn't have other, rats to play with or toys or anything. And, what she proved, not surprisingly, was that the external stimulation had a huge impact on their brains. So obviously, before and after the stimulation, their brains were different except for one group. And the group that didn't change were the group that were, were pregnant. And she panicked and she thought, oh my gosh, does this mean that pregnant women can't learn? You know, can you imagine what she would have drawn from that? She's like, why aren't the why aren't these pregnant women's brains changing? Why can't they be stimulated from their environment? You know, it just mean that like, it's true, we should just stick to the kitchen that we're, you know, that we can't ever change and learn. But then what she discovered is that the reason they didn't change is because they were already changed. Right? They were already changed so much just by the act of being pregnant that their brains already were enriched. So whether or not they were in an enriching environment, the biology, the things that were happening in their bodies were so influential on their brains that their brains actually were enriched from the biology from their body from the physical experience they were going through regardless of the environment that they were
Speaker 1
doing. Boom.
Speaker 2
My job. Exactly. And, of course, no one believed her. She couldn't get it published for a long time. But now, of course, she's very, very well recognized. She only passed away recently in old age. And and she's has inspired a whole lot of other women researchers to jump in and start studying this kind of stuff too. Because women look at things from a completely different perspective, you know. For for a woman, it's obvious to include female rats in her research. Whereas for a man, it might not even occur to them. So we're still learning so much. And most of all, it's still taking a really long time to filter into our everyday knowledge and our understanding of the world, partly because it's often hard for these women to get their their, studies published and get research funding and all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1
Mhmm. Yeah. Okay. So then take us to what your work is in the world today. What is that what does that look like? What are you what are you doing with all of this?
Speaker 2
Yes. So for a long time, I worked directly with moms, and, and I really love that. But then I felt like, again, a calling to make a bigger difference and a bigger impact on the world. And I had a, a business coach actually once who said, Julie, if you wanna get to more people, you're gonna have to train professionals. And I was kinda like, oh, really? Like, what didn't I didn't really think that was what I was gonna end up doing. But, I created I actually taught first in real life. I used to have, you know, seven or twelve people sitting in a circle in my hometown and learning together and teaching them what I've kind of figured out from all my years of postpartum research and work and that kind of thing. And over time, that's evolved now into an online course. So I now have five hundred students in thirty different countries, who are just, you know, doing this amazing work. And the impact is so big now because they all have their own clients, and they're all starting their own businesses in their own countries. And, you know, it's so so important to for me to I feel like in a way, I haven't necessarily discovered anything new, but I feel like what's happening in the world now is a lot of these women who were researchers or who are from indigenous cultures who have have this knowledge, to share, but don't necessarily have the voice. I feel like, women of our generation have this amazing opportunity to have things like podcasts and do webinars and, you know, be on social media and run courses and groups and all that kind of thing. And and our voice is gonna be heard in a much more democratic way. No one has to give us permission anymore to put that message out there. So, yeah. So now I I feel like we can reach a lot more people with this, this kind of knowledge without having the gatekeepers that were traditionally there. Yeah. So a lot of people come to me because they wanna learn about Ayurveda, and they wanna learn about food. And that's often it was the same in my work with moms. People would book me for meals and massage. But really, the biggest transformation that they get out of it is understanding the transformation that they're going through. You know, making connections, building villages, acknowledging that their value as a woman and their, you know, their strength and their power and all of that kind of thing. So, and it's the same now that I teach professionals. A lot of people say, oh, I really wanna learn about Ayurvedic food. And then they come away going, well, what I learned about baby brain completely changed my perspective, you know. So, so really, it's a combination of the two, but also I've sort of gone beyond Iverde now. I still do teach a little bit of it, but I'm really, really passionate about, all indigenous cultures and all traditional cultures and for us as women actually diving into our own heritage. So as I've gone on my journey, I've started exploring my English and Welsh and, and Czechoslovakian ancestry and looking back in into, their traditional postpartum care. And what's mind blowing is it doesn't have to be exotic or other, you know, and we don't have to take things from other people's culture because it actually all exists in our own. So that's been really, really amazing for me to realize that actually all women everywhere had this knowledge, all all of our elders, you know, and it just depends when the patriarchy came and oppressed them, you know, how hard it is to dig it up. But it is there. So, you know, so now I really encourage my students to have a really solid understanding of the modern science, you know, the Western perspective, but to also dive into their own ancestry and explore their own their own culture of women and, and start reviving that as well because that is such an important part of, I think yeah. Like unearthing that that strength so that we can overcome the the patriarchy and see the value in ourselves, you know, see that that we all hold this this magic and this power.
Speaker 1
So what have you seen in diving into your own ancestry and your knowledge of of indigenous and traditional cultures around the world? What is the common denominators of wisdom that you see in practices before they were silenced?
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, there's really probably eight or so things that you can see in nearly any culture. And once you start looking, you'll see them everywhere. But one of them that people commonly know about is, belly binding, which again is becoming more popular now. And for a long time in the West, it was kind of thought of as like a bit of a weight loss kind of thing or something, which is not really what it's about. But, you know, in all my research, I've interviewed people from all over the world. When I interviewed, my English midwife, for example, she was telling me they used to tear up the old bed sheets and, use those for belly binding. And when I interviewed an, an Aboriginal woman, a Noongar woman from the area where I live, she's telling me they used to use paper bark from a paper bark tree, which is a very soft bark that we have in Australia that, again, is almost like a fabric. And she they used to say they she said they used to warm it up on the fire and, and wrap it around the woman's, belly. So that's one of those things that, you know, if you can find someone who knows anything about postpartum care, that that's one of the things that comes up time and time again. Another one that's really, really common is, not getting cold. Nearly every culture has traditions about staying warm after a baby's born. And, you know, so that's warm food. It's a warm body. It's staying in some doors. It's maybe being careful when you wash that you don't, you know, go outside with wet hair and that kind of thing. So warmth is another really important one. And both of those things, unsurprisingly, are related to oxytocin, because the deep even pressure of, of belly binding is similar to having a hug, you know, so it's been found that pressure reduces anxiety. It's it's really soothing. They use it, for example, they use, pressure with, premature babies. They use they use this deep pressure with anxious dogs if their owners go out. They use weighted blankets for children with anxiety or autism. So it is a very soothing thing, and it's just the same as having a hug, which is just the same as getting an oxytocin hit, you know. So it's that grounding and soothing. And same with the warmth. The oxytocin is related to your body temperature, and how warm you are. So, you know, all of these things, once you start to see all the pieces coming together, you're like, just they're all talking about the same thing. They're just using a different perspective. Food nourishing, comfort food, really nostalgic food. So in England, for example, it's chicken soup. You know, but whatever the, sort of the comfort food of the area, it that's what they would have. So I was interviewing a Kenyan woman, for example. They they have a sort of corn meal that they would have, with chicken as well. A lot of the time, in Morocco, it's refissa, which is a sort of a stew. So a lot of the time, it's really warm, comforting, nurturing sort of foods. The same foods as you would have, maybe for, someone who's who's not well. You know, if you've got cold and you're like, I just want something soothing and warming. Those are the kinds of foods that are given.
Speaker 1
And then I would I would imagine well, not so much in our culture, but maybe it's making a comeback, but, obviously, that lie in period, that rest period afterwards.
Speaker 2
Yes. That's definitely one of them. So, the cultures vary a little bit in the details, but somewhere between thirty days and forty two days, they will have rest in bed, rest in the bedroom, rest in the home, you know, and relief from housework, especially during that time, which a lot of modern women really struggle with because we're taught to be so independent and so busy and so active. It's really can be very difficult for people to slow down. So, you know, I always tell people it's not like a it's not like a sentence. It's not like you have to be, you know, like, lying in bed and suffering. But if you're very extroverted, you know, still have friends over and things
Speaker 1
like that, but really the important thing
Speaker 2
is relief from chores. You don't wanna be stressed out. So the most important thing is that during that time, you're not the one cooking, cleaning, shopping, you know, running around after your older children. But if you can have all that taken care of, then if you don't feel like resting at home, you can rest in the garden or you can go for the walk to the park. But the point is you shouldn't be doing the stressful jobs and the things you feel obligated to do, for that period of time.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Oh, it's so complicated. It's so complicated and yet so simple. Right? But, you know, how how so few women have, in our culture, I mean, I've I've supported so many families of different cultures where the moms fly in from Korea and they're doing oil massage on the mom, and they're, you know, all of these other cultures that I've gotten to witness, but but the, you know, busy, busy European descent, American Western, you know, culture I find to be the one that has the least value around around these principles. But I really like you you bringing that up because I I agree and I've been thinking a lot about that lately of of really looking to our ancestors, and I I know that, women of European descent, you know, in this Western world have this confusion around our ancestry and and the colonizers and the oppressors and this, you know, guilt and and kind of wanting to dissociate from that and, and and I guess I'll just speak for myself that, not even knowing how to start to look back, you know, and so I see, you know, all these other cultures doing these things that resonate with me, but how do I learn, exactly what you just said, this this beautiful truth and magic and and reality that, women are women are women are women, you know, and and wisdom of birth and pregnancy and womanhood is, is a global, you know, beautiful, relatively simple, you know, wisdom that we all carry, and so, I I I hear women all the time say to me that, you know, no one in my family's had a natural birth, and I'm like, well, you're you're super wrong because for hundreds of thousands of years, people have been having natural births. So you just don't know your ancestors, and that's the piece that, that we have to figure out how to how to heal and how to learn more about.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Because it's really just a drop in time, isn't it? Mhmm. But but I agree. It leads to a lot of, you know, something I'm super passionate about at the moment is decolonization, and it is a really it's it's really the the issue of our times, I think, is how we undo this whole mess. And we can obviously never go back to how it was, but I I think a lot of colonization is really based on the values of the patriarchy. So a lot of it is about what happened was in Europe, the men oppressed the women, and then because the women's contribution was lost, then the masculine just went out of control. You know? And that's really what led to so many of our modern problems. So, really, we do need to go back to where it all started and revive some of that that feminine knowledge and that feminine wisdom. And it really is there. And I think a lot of us do look to the other. We think other cultures are more exotic, but this can really lead to cultural appropriation. And it's much, much better if we go back home and and learn about our own stuff. And, you know, I'm of European ancestry, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners are too. But just to give you an idea in hospitals, they still often call it an EDC, your estimated date of confinement. You know? And this is just like a common thing. Even if you ask your grandmothers, you know, they they maybe had two weeks in hospital after their baby was were born, where they just got fed, they got to lie in bed, they figured out breastfeeding, they caught up on sleep, they had a time to to heal, and rest. You know? So it's really actually not that long ago. Not that we had, like, the full traditions, but we at least had some awareness of it. You know? So
Speaker 1
Well, it's confusing though because then where my mind goes is like, yeah. But they're also given ether and knocked knocked out and had babies pulled from them, so, like, they if they weren't even conscious, like, of course they had to be hospitalized for longer. You know, I'm so in my mind, like,
Speaker 2
I'm Yeah.
Speaker 1
I'm so quick to, I totally get your point, and and and hopefully, there was some real wisdom in in that honoring time. But I haven't seen on the birth side any honoring of that, so it's confusing, you know.
Speaker 2
No. Well, yes and no. Because I agree. I think the birth stuff got killed dead much quicker. The postpartum stuff stayed alive for a little bit longer afterwards. Probably because it was, probably because it was nonmedical. You know, men didn't feel like they had doctors didn't feel I had to interfere in that time. They could just leave them alone and women could get on with doing the way they've always done it. Mhmm. You know, but but it's I don't know. It's different everywhere, but I know that my grandmothers both had natural home births. So, you know, and and that they were England. So I think that was the norm then. Your first your first babies maybe went to hospital, but most babies were still born at home. You know? That's that's only sixty, you know, odd years ago.
Speaker 1
Mhmm.
Speaker 2
But even one generation or two generations before that, you can start to see the you just see it decline, you know, so quickly. And it's really has been a couple of hundred years, but but it still is there. There's still glimpses of it there. And if you start to ask the right questions, you know, like and if the readers wanna actually start exploring this for themselves, go and ask your elders. And it might not even be someone from your family, but someone from your ancestry because my own family didn't know, a lot about this stuff, but I did have an English midwife who was actually my mother's midwife when I was born, and she's a home birth midwife in my town. So a lot of people know her. She's, you know, the perfect, like, you know, beautiful community midwife. And so I asked if I could interview her because she's from the same coal mining district as my dad was from. Cool. And so sometimes you won't have the answers in your family, but but you can find someone who still has that knowledge. And, again, a lot of the time when I've interviewed people, they've been surprised how much they know. So they might go, I don't really have much to tell you. But when you say, oh, did you have any traditions about getting wet? Oh, funny you should ask because actually, you know, my grandmother always said, you know, and they're kind of surprised that Sure. They've never valued that before. They've never really known that that was an important thing. But if you know the questions to ask, you can actually find out they probably know more than they think they know.
Speaker 1
Totally. So then I have to ask if you don't mind talk talking about it, how was your postpartum time with your three children and and with the knowledge that you had generated before your first child, did you feel really set up and and what was it like? Was it amazing or or challenging? How was it?
Speaker 2
Oh, so the oh, so different. My three children were also different. I didn't know all of this when my first baby was born. I'd only really discovered the traditional medicine piece of the puzzle, and I hadn't figured out baby brain yet. And baby brain was the massive turning point. I actually didn't even learn about that until after my second baby was, born. My first baby, the birth, it was interesting. It was on the one hand, a completely natural, spontaneous, very quick pain free vaginal breech birth, which sounds amazing and was so amazing. And after my baby was born, I was like, woah, was that it? That was just incredible. Like, what a roller coaster. But then I had a postpartum hemorrhage, and I ended up, in hospital having surgery with blood transfusions. And, I actually thought I was going to die. So that really didn't set me up very well for a good postpartum Wow. Experience. So on the one hand
Speaker 1
was a it was a home birth breach Yes. And you hemorrhaged at home and then were transferred?
Speaker 2
No. So we planned a home birth. As soon as the as soon as the midwife knew she was breached, we had to transfer in. So we transferred in in an ambulance. She was born six minutes after we got to hospital. So hemorrhaged? Yeah, exactly. It's unsurprising. And then they had an inexperienced pediatrician who called a code blue who, had never seen a breech baby before. So my midwife said I would never have called that code blue. I'm sorry that that was out of my control. But then Drama drama drama. Drama drama drama. So even though it was even though it was on the path of being a perfectly straightforward birth, yeah, it just completely deviated. So, of course, that sets things up badly. But then, because I didn't have this piece of understanding baby brain, I was trying to look after myself in the way that it was written down in books. So okay. So you eat this food, and you take that herb, and you rest in bed, you know, like, it was like an instruction manual. But the piece that was missing was understanding that it had to bring me peace and joy. That if it wasn't feeling good for me in that moment, then it wasn't the right thing to do. And when I really learned more about baby brain, then that's when it all clicked together that all of these things are just guides. They're not strict rules to be followed. It's not like a schedule. You shouldn't get obsessed over the details of what herbs you're having, or whether you're eating enough of this, or whether you're sleeping enough like that.
Speaker 1
Well, and because to to do that is totally missing the point. Right? To do that is out of oxytocin. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Exactly. But the reason that we cling to that is because we're unsupported in this in this transformation. You know? We're feeling so all at sea, so confused and overwhelmed. We don't know who we are anymore. And so I didn't have that piece of the picture yet to go. It's alright to feel like this. That's normal because I'm rebuilding my entire brain. So instead, I was clinging. I was clinging to the things that you know, the rules and and and a lot of women, I think, experienced this a little bit that they get a bit OCD after having a baby. You know, and I don't say that lightly. I know OCD is a serious thing, so I don't mean they get clinically OCD. But, actually, when they've studied the brains of new mothers, a lot of them have the same patterns as women who do have a OCD.
Speaker 1
So It's like trying to find control and and Exactly.
Speaker 2
They're searching for control. And that's why we cling to these sleep routines and these breastfeeding routines. We're just looking for some kind of control in our out of control lives, often because of an out of control birth experience. Yeah. So really, my experience was once I discovered that baby brain and understood that piece of the puzzle, then I was free to have, much more beautiful, not just postpartum times, but motherhood in general. Because I realized that the that the soothing and the grounding that I needed because my brain was so out of control, even if my birth experience was good, my brain was still unhinged. And so the soothing and the grounding that I needed comes from a lot of these practices, like the massage and the resting at home and the belly binding, and all of those kinds of things and staying warm. All of that is about bringing us back into our bodies, keeping us feeling safe and comfortable. You know, so that throughout this period of massive upheaval in our lives, we, we feel we don't feel like we need to cling to that control, you know, in an external sense because we have that support, and we have that internal, you know, that anchor, that feeling of, like, okay. This is why I'm going through this. This is a natural process. I'm gonna come out the other side, you know, being the mom that I wanna be.
Speaker 1
Yeah. I so appreciate that. It's it's not something that, you know, is getting talked about enough at all in the birth community or in or in the yeah. In the birth community, I feel like there's so much emphasis on, you know, things like the stages of labor and what transition's like and what emergence is like and, you know, maybe even immediate postpartum and and there I think there's getting more and more conversation around honoring the fourth trimester, but but until talking to you right now, you know, I don't think there's enough people talking about what's actually happening in our brains. We all know that it's a big adjustment. We all know that that's gonna bring stuff up. We all know that's gonna test a relationship potentially. We all know that those things are gonna be, a part of postpartum, but this actually understanding the structure shifting and and giving ourselves, with that education some real compassion for, you know, being truly reborn. You know, I think we we're talking about it on a surface level, like, oh, we're all born again as mothers, but we're actually changing our brains. That's that's a, a whole another layer to it that that is just fascinating and I think, hopefully, you know, everyone listening to this, that'll give you a new wave of compassion and understanding for, for literally, like, very biophysically what you're going through. It's such a
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly. And it can help you go. Like, that's why I'm craving sweets, and that's why I'm I'm craving, you know, this, and that's why I feel like that. And and that's why I need all of this extra support, all of these extra things that we were designed to have, you know, and it all works in in together. You can't separate the bits out. You know?
Speaker 1
Just I was gonna ask with your third, do you feel like, for lack of a better phrase, do you feel like you finally did it right kind of thing with your third? Like, you got to feel a stress free, integrative, supportive, had all your pieces together postpartum, or or was
Speaker 2
Yes. Absolutely. But I even felt that a little bit with my second. Even though I hadn't completely uncovered the baby brain stuff, I still had enough of the pieces that it was a really beautiful postpartum. But I also feel like it's more of a continuum, and I don't want people to feel like they've missed the moment. Like, a lot of people are like, I had a crappy postpartum. That's it. I can never go back. But, actually, I feel like it takes many years for these these transformation to become complete. And, you know, so if you did have a crappy experience all those years ago, that doesn't mean that that's it. That door's closed. Of course. All that means is that you're still on that journey. You're still searching for answers and you still a lot of it really is about self love and self care and self esteem. And and a lot of that is because, you know, we've been taught from such a young age that women are not important and valuable, you know, and mothers especially. So, you know, it's a journey that takes many years. So, yes, whilst I have I've had one really really really difficult postpartum experience, and I've had one really joyful ecstatic postpartum experience, and I've had one that's kind of in the middle that was really amazing. And I definitely felt that that transformation and the joy and the love overflowing and that ecstasy that a lot of people look for in that moment after birth, but don't realize that it can last weeks and months. You know? But then yeah. But I was still a little bit stressed, I think, because I still didn't quite also, we didn't have enough money at that time. When my second baby was born, I, he was, surprised. So we hadn't really had time to save up and, you know, like, make sure we had all the support that we needed. By the time my third came along, I'd, put a lot of money aside. I could get all of the help I needed with cooking, cleaning, all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, I always think if you can at all plan for it, it should be like a wedding. It's something that your family contributed. It's something that you think about for many years before it happens, that you make sure that you've got the support that you need. So, you know, in terms of mental health, there are a lot of barriers that, go well beyond having a good birth experience and postpartum support, that are related a lot to poverty, autonomy, education, domestic violence, sexual abuse, you know, and these are indicators worldwide, you know, so it doesn't matter where you live in the world. If you if you don't have financial autonomy, for example, then you can still have it. It's super stressful experience.
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2
You know, and what I find really interesting is that traditionally, birth, was largely unsupported in a lot of traditional cultures. Michelle O'Dawn says women would just go to the cave or the river, whatever the birthing spot is, and they would just give birth. Maybe for their first, they might have a, you know, an aunt or a mother, someone who would help them. But, you know, a lot of the time, it was something that was a very normal event. Women would just go and have their babies. It wasn't seen as a, you know, a need for a huge amount of people to be there helping her or telling her what to do. But then in all cultures, postpartum support is absolutely vital. Like, it's seen as non negotiable. I was interested, interviewing a Malaysian confinement lady, and she was saying that, like, I was saying, you know, how many people get postpartum support? She was like, everyone. What do you mean? Like, as if anyone would you'd be crazy not to have postpartum support in Malaysia. She was like, I can't believe that's even a question, you know. And I asked her if it was a calling for her, like a vocation. She said, no. No. It's just a very well paid job for a woman at my my age and education level. She said, I don't I've not, you know, got the education to get a, you know, a better job, and this job is paid well. And I'm a very nurturing person. And I said, do you have to study to do postpartum work to be a confinement lady? She said, oh, no. Everyone knows how to look after moms. Totally. So so for for cultures where this is the norm, then, yeah, you would birth alone because you know what to do. You just go into your body, and you just let it happen. And it it you know, ninety nine percent of the time, it works. And, but if you, but then you come back to the village, and you get cocooned by your family and all of your women, they bring you food, and they, you know, help you with, massage and belly binding, and they tuck you into bed. And often, even those feed the mother with a spoon, you know, like the mother's really seen as like a baby. It's like she's swaddled and tucked into bed and fed with a spoon just like her, you know, like a baby would be. So, that kind of looking after is is considered really, really important and essential. So I think it's interesting that, these days, women can still have a, you know, they can have a massively traumatic birth experience, you know, and less likely that some people do have really positive birth experiences. But either way, they can still go on to have an absolute shit storm in postpartum because it's not even a question. It's in their mind. They didn't even know that was a thing, you know. So sometimes people kind of just get home and it's like a perfect storm because they hadn't realized that that was something that they should have prepared for. Well, right?
Speaker 1
I mean, I'm sure you hear that all the time. I I hear it all the time. I mean, probably every day. I read it or I hear it as, oh, I had no idea how to prepare for, you know, I didn't know it was gonna be like this, you know, or I didn't Yeah. I didn't know my husband was gonna, you know, I would want my husband home after three weeks. It's like, oh my God. So Yeah. I guess it's kind of the last thing I wanna touch on is, and it's a massive question, so just any way you wanna break it down, but just like, how do we get there? Like, what is, what are the the achievable integrative steps that anyone listening being like, okay, I'm pregnant and I wanna set myself up, you know, for the best that I can, but oh, my mom lives across the country or my husband, you know, only has paternity leave for two weeks and so, you know, how I know that you're you're educating educators around,
Speaker 2
you know,
Speaker 1
how to educate this, in whatever way that that you're doing that. So how do we what's, like, some little quick quick tips before they go buy your course and do it? So, yeah, what are some some digestible and achievable, you know, steps that that women can make when it feels like they don't have any plan yet?
Speaker 2
So, of course, the place you have to start is with making a plan because, you know, what else can you possibly do when you don't know what's gonna happen and you don't know what to expect, you know, so you start to plan. But then, of course, be ready for that plan to completely go out the window because you don't even know who you are going to be yet. You know, like, it is such a such a huge change, and people say, oh, nothing can ever prepare you. And I don't think that's totally true. Because I actually think if we had the right framework, the right understanding, the right support, then that would actually prepare you. But on the other hand, yeah, without all of that, you have to make a plan, and you just have to accept that it's never gonna go to plan. But at least you've got to start somewhere. But most important thing with that plan is not to get stuck in an information frenzy, but really to tune into your body and to tune into that peace and joy and not to go, well, I have to rest in bed for forty days because that's what the book said. But rather go, how am I feeling today? And, and really making sure that that's your benchmark. You know? What what brings you peace and joy? And so the second thing is, you know, once you go beyond the plan is really to build a village. People are, you know, just so important. If you have the right mom's group, they will lift you up. And, you know, people who listen to this podcast are obviously the type of people who were looking for really positive stories and a positive influence. And, you know, and that is so important. So if you can find the right women to be around, the right mothers, the right elders, the right groups, and and often you can find that online if you can't find it in in real life. But do look for it in real life too if you can. And and I
Speaker 1
just wanna add that a huge piece to this that I think is is kind of where we're at generationally trying to reclaim this that can be challenging or awkward is you have to ask. It's not just available. It's not just, you know, people aren't knocking down your door because we're coming out of this space where it's really private and no one wants to bother you, and, you know, people don't wanna infringe on each other. And so, what I see consistently in communities around my country is, you know, maybe people like offer to do a meal train, which is super sweet. But, other than that, unfortunately, we do have to be the leaders of taking, you know, charge of our space and saying, can you come by three times a week? And, and, you know, I don't know what I'm gonna need that day, but can you just come by? And and I think, you know, we're already taught not to ask for our needs, we're taught to not even know what our needs are. But, you know, you have to think about yourself in bed with a newborn, having not eaten that day, maybe your partner's back at work and what? You know, what does that day look like for you and take some take some ownership over making that be, if you want people to come by, you have to ask them, which sucks, you know, I wish it was I wish it was different, but maybe that next baby, people are gonna know. You know, you have to train people to love you and meet your needs.
Speaker 2
Yeah. You absolutely do. And you need to believe that you're worth it, in the first place to be able to do that, which is alone is probably the biggest transformation of motherhood. Because we grow up in this world where all the masculine independence and competitiveness is all what's valued. But then when you really look at what are what what is the main strength of women, it's connection. It's our ability to be compassionate and empathetic and to work together and to care about each other, and they're all the values that are missing from our broader culture, in general. So, you know, you really have to reach out. And it it's why so many women are blindsided by postpartum because they didn't realize they had to plan for that bit. They didn't even know it was a thing. But, traditionally, women wouldn't have to plan for that. Right. It would just all be done for them. There would just be that framework, you know. People know what gifts to bring. They know when they're allowed to visit. You know, and they know who's looking after the mom, and, you know, it was all just taken care of. And they had ceremonies and rituals to acknowledge it and everything. So, yeah, it's, it's really, really important. And that's really two separate things. Asking for help is really one thing, and building your village, I kind of feel like it's similar. But the thing is about the village is a lot of people build their village of other moms, which is super important to have that emotional support. But those other moms are busy too, and they're unlikely to have a huge capacity to be able to cook and care for you as well as all their own children and their own hectic life. So we really need to expand our asking for help circles beyond women of our own age and stage.
Speaker 1
Start asking for girls and the grandma.
Speaker 2
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And the men as well, you know. So Wait. What? Surprise men can help too. Yeah. So those are all really important things. Another super, super important thing is to make mistakes. Because you know, what we're so paranoid about in our parenting at the moment, we have so much guilt and pressure and fear that we're gonna make one mistake and we're gonna screw up our baby for life. When in reality, you know, what happens is you make millions of tiny mistakes and you and you get to know what your baby likes and doesn't like, and you adjust your course. So, you know, it's a mistake.
Speaker 1
You know? Exactly. It's just living.
Speaker 2
Exactly. You're gonna try stuff and sometimes your baby's not gonna like it, and then you're gonna know, cool. Won't do that again. So, you know, we have to instead of thinking that we can read the manual and then a hundred percent it's gonna work on the baby. So paternalistic. Yeah.
Speaker 1
So
Speaker 2
that Exactly. It's a real, like, one plus two equals three rather than a this is a fluid, evolving, growing relationship. Yeah. So that's really important to is to to accept the fact that you're gonna get it wrong sometimes and that that is ultimately how you get it right and then the final thing is embracing baby brain and really Valuing that feeling of being overwhelmed, you know, you actually lose gray matter when you become a mother your brain actually shrinks You know, so, you know that can feel really overwhelming and it can feel really
Speaker 1
your boobs grow and your brain shrinks
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But it does rewire for the better. And in the long run, you know, there are so many benefits of of, you know, a baby brain, you know, that for example, women with children are more empathetic. They're better at reading body language and nonverbal cues. They have better sensory perception. We can see, hear, smell better than non mothers. We're better at assessing risk and making, accurate decisions. We're more ambitious and more motivated to to, do good things in the world and to take care of our children and that kind of thing. So, you know, so many of these things are actually really great attributes, not just as a mother, but as an employee, as a, you know, as a citizen, as a partner, you know, as a businesswoman. All of these kinds of things actually are really super helpful in in life in general. So, you know, if you can kind of, like, see your way through that all at see it moment, see it as, like, a decluttering or something, you know, that, yeah, it's a bit overwhelming at the time, but you're gonna come through it and you're gonna be, you know, so much more in your power and and, you know, owning your strength and confident and calm and loving and all of those things. So, you know, I think if people can embrace that, that's really what a lot of the traditional rituals and ceremonies are about, about acknowledging the new role of a woman in society now that she's a mother. But we don't have the traditions anymore, so, you know, we can make do with the western explanation.
Speaker 1
So I wonder what happens when the mother becomes the grandmother, and that transition, you know, I wonder what happens in the brain, and I just was reading this beautiful part of have you read the book Braiding Sweetgrass?
Speaker 2
No. Oh my god.
Speaker 1
Give yourself the gift. Like, it is it is the most beautiful book I've ever read in my life. It's it's about indigenous plant medicine. It's a woman who's indigenous to, to what is now, the United States of America. And, anyway, so she's a botanist and ecologist, she's a scientist, but she's also this indigenous, amazing woman. And so the whole book is this, like, love him to the earth, and and her lessons that she's learned from the land and and also science, and it's just profoundly beautiful. But anyway, why was I bringing that up? She was just talking about, oh, how the daughter, you know, to the mother, to the grandmother, and what happens from the mother where you're all focused on your kids and all of your creative energy initially is into the womb and into the child, but then how quickly that creative energy goes out into the world, and then as you enter into the grandmother phase, now you're ready to nourish an entire community because your children are grown. She says it way better than what I just did, it's so much prettier than what I just did, but it makes me think with what you're saying about baby brain, I wonder if there's a brain shift, or if you happen to know anything about that of what happens at that, you know, when when the the from mother to crone.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I've thought about it a lot and I did do a bit of research and I I I wondered at first if menopause was perhaps another stage of high plasticity, but it's not from what I can find. But what I have discovered is that there's a lot of research that it's more environmental. So whilst there's not a biological, you know, it's not like becoming pregnant. It's not like it's something that happens with a biological trigger. But when a grandparent spends a lot of time looking after their grandchildren, then, yeah, they they do actually live longer. You know, they're they have less risk of things like Alzheimer's, and dementia. They have better health. So I think I think looking after children definitely has, you know, a huge and profound impact on on grandparents as well. You know? And grandmothers are so so important in the whole evolution of of humans because why do we live past menopause? Other animals don't do that. They don't stop having babies and then live for another, you know, few decades, but humans do. And it's, and it's because we're designed to be social animals who all share the care of our children. And children that have more than one carer have much better survival, odds. You know? So so these grandmothers stop having their own babies, and then they're there to look after, you know, the next generation of babies. And in traditional cultures, babies were raised by up to eight or fourteen different adult carers, you know, and even breastfed by all of those different people, even by their grandmothers. You know? So the idea that you're meant to do this all alone is so so crazy. Like, you know, it's absolutely insane, and it's such a speck in the in the whole history of humans that we, you know, that we're doing it this way. You know, so if you can kind of that's part of the asking for help piece too that you were never actually designed to be one on one for twenty four hours a day with a with a baby. You know? You were designed to have all of these women around you and men One and ever. Without a baby. Yeah. You're it's
Speaker 1
not we're like you said, we're social creatures and community Exactly. Is everything and, you know, we all so many people I think in the, like, conscious communities, you know, talk nonstop about community, but who's really doing it? And who's who's, like, if if you're listening and you know a pregnant woman, like, you better go set up a post party.
Speaker 2
Don't knock on her door. Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1
Like, just literally do it. It's it's simple stuff. And and this, I say, I'm a broken record on this podcast about this, but, you know, I I firmly believe and you pointed to it as well that, you know, the the core destruction or sabotage of, of matriarchy or or or even just of of the power of woman has so largely been in the complete obliteration of community, and that women can't gather, women can't circle, you know, women women can hardly talk to each other. You know, my my my Facebook groups got shut down because we dared to talk about, you know, birth and and free birth and and, you know, self authority. And and there's so much energy opposed to, to women gathering that, you know
Speaker 2
They're they're afraid now. They know the ship's going down, you know. I think this last this is like their their last fighting back against women because women are gathering now. I I really think it's changing, you know. I think we're fighting back and they know that that, you know, we can't be controlled anymore.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. Well, thank you. So tell us a little bit about how people can find where you are and and your course if people are interested in in all your stuff.
Speaker 2
Sure. So my website is easy. It's newborn mothers dot com. And, I have, two books. One of them is a recipe book. Another one is called newborn mothers when a baby is born, so is a mother. And that was just released in January and got two numbers here on Amazon. So that was very exciting. Yeah. Cool. And yes, I know someone said that must be a dream come true. I was like, no. I never dreamed to get to number three on Amazon, and that was just completely a surprise. Wow. And I think that really is a sign that this world is changing. You know, that that and actually, you know, who was number two was Michelle Obama, which is another amazing story of of women's strength, you know. So I do think it's this the time's coming. So there's my books. If you're a mom, if you're a professional, then there's my course, which is newborn mothers collective which Yeah is is all about You know doulas midwives and and really anyone who feels called to work in postpartum So we have people who are even postpartum yoga teachers or do massage or that kind of thing. Who just really wanna understand how women are changing and how they can embrace that. Because, you know, if we really if we can't embrace our feminine power in birth, what hope have we ever got in our entire life? You know, so motherhood is where it's where it's gotta start. So if you feel the same way, then, yeah, we'd love to see you in in Newborn Mugs Collective.
Speaker 1
Beautiful. Awesome. Alright. I appreciate your time so much.
Speaker 2
Oh, pleasure. We could talk all day, I think. I know. Soon we hit on another subject or, like, yes.
Speaker 1
That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the free birth podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
