Speaker 0
Welcome to the Free Birth Podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning, exploring, and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth. Together, we'll unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emilee Saldaya.
Speaker 1
There are many ways to interact with Free Birth Society. These include our incredible offering, the complete guide to free birth, which is the most comprehensive online course available on how to give birth in your power. We also have a beautiful free birth meditation program called the sovereign birth meditation series, designed to help you release your fears and actualize your dream birth. Our latest course is called Through the Veil, a profoundly personal, radical pregnancy companion program by Yolanda Norris Clark that offers the opportunity to travel with Yolanda as she moves through the last trimester of her most recent pregnancy and invites you into her birth room to witness the birth of her eighth child. And if you're looking for a deeper connection and the opportunity for sisterhood in community with radical like minded women, the free Birth Society private membership is for you, and you can apply on our website to become a member. We also offer personalized one on one transformational coaching with a focus on learning the tools to move out of victim consciousness and towards self responsibility, skills that translate to freedom, not only in the context of birth and mothering, but in every area of life. And finally, we are offering all of you, our amazing listeners, the free gift of Yolanda's twenty minute birth affirmations audio recording, a gorgeous, soothing meditation that every pregnant mother should have. So just head on over to our website at free birth society dot com, sign up, and Yolanda's affirmations will be sent directly to your inbox.
Speaker 2
Hello. It's Yolanda here, and I'm so excited to tell you about my latest endeavor with Free Birth Society. It's called through the veil and it's an invitation for you to join me on the most profoundly intimate experience of my life and yours. The journey of moving through the birth process into the underworld of birth to be reborn as a new mother into a new family once again. Through the veil is a very raw, very real third trimester, birth, and postpartum week by week program that includes seventeen videos in which I discuss exactly how I prepare for my free birth, including so many of the messy, emotional, logistical, and relational issues that aren't often talked about in the conventional prenatal context. Through the Veil also includes the hour plus long documentary of my eighth baby's birth, an incredibly loving, incredibly vulnerable, gritty, agonizing, naked, and beautiful family birth that I'm so so proud of. I really look forward to you journeying with me through the veil.
Speaker 1
We're joined today by Kristen, who free birthed her second child. Kristen has so much wisdom to give, and her story is simple and sweet. Having had great challenges with breastfeeding the first time around, Kristen shares how she took responsibility for creating a new story this time. Kristen has been on the show before, so you can go back and find her story and listen to her first birth. Enjoy.
Speaker 3
We are back with, you're becoming you're becoming like
Speaker 4
a like a regular. Oh, I know. So exciting.
Speaker 3
I guess it's your third time now.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Or is it fourth? I talked on the, like, conscious inception episode.
Speaker 3
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1
You're right. I forgot about that. Oh, that's so sweet.
Speaker 3
I'm glad you reminded me of that. Okay. Well, then you're definitely a regular. So yeah. For anyone who's new to Kristen, you can go back and listen to, her episodes. In last season, we had no. Wait. Was it last this is the third season.
Speaker 4
Yeah. So in season two, I was, on to talk about, like, emotional processing during pregnancy and how it was to have a wild pregnancy and Mhmm. Sharing about, yeah,
Speaker 3
that. And then in first season, you did a snippet on the conscious conception episode, but then you also shared your free or your birth story, that was at the very end midwife attended by
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
A dear friend of yours and, and then shared some of your breastfeeding difficulties with your son. And so it's Yes. Exciting to be back here to kinda pick up where we left off in last season where you were experiencing a wild pregnancy and sharing your musings on what that was like for you and and heading into a free birth, which now on the other side,
Speaker 4
you have done it.
Speaker 3
You have gone through postpartum with your daughter, and and we're here to kind of put all the pieces together. Yeah. So where do you wanna start?
Speaker 4
Well, I think I'd like to start just, like, third trimester end of pregnancy, kind of how that transition into labor land was for me. And, yeah, I think that's, like, the best place to start because, for me, it's it's tricky to say, like, when my birthing time actually, you know, started. I mean, of course, there's clear delineations that happen and, ways to kinda contextualize it for ourselves, but I do feel like this kinda this fading into a different reality is what the third trimester is all about. Mhmm. And I just find that process to be so fascinating and rich.
Speaker 3
I know. And you said that with your first with your first son when you were explaining that, and I love that so much. And it really stuck with me, this idea of fading into your labor. And I I thought about that a lot in my fading into with my daughter, and then I was kind of expecting more of a fade in when my labor began. And it was like all of a sudden, I was in labor. But I love that concept, and and it's such a beautiful way, like you said, to contextualize the end of your pregnancy. You know, like Yolanda always says that birth is this continuum and that birth the labor process really begins, at conception. And I think Yeah. You know, yeah, the continuation of that same conversation.
Speaker 4
Yeah. So I guess I could start like, I ended up, I had one midwife visit with my previous midwife, so I drove I live in San Diego now, and I drove up to Orange County where I used to live. And I had a visit with her in my thirty sixth week of pregnancy. And, that was just for me personally because I wanted to have, like, an easy time getting the birth certificate. So I needed proof of pregnancy, and she agreed to do it. And she knew I was having a free birth, and I knew, that I would have an easy time, like, having a visit with her. So I did that, and I got to see also the student and wife that attended my birth. And it was just really sweet and simple. And, yeah, so that was kind of like, okay. This crossing this threshold into, like, my birth is coming. Like, the birthing time is really, approaching. And it was I think right before that, I got kind of sick. I had, like, a pretty bad cough and, like, fever, and, I remember kind of just feeling, like, this anticipation, like, oh, gosh. I just really don't want the birth to happen when I'm feeling this ill and, like, not sleeping well and all that. And so I got past that and was starting to feel better, but I was still coughing. And I was, like, thirty seven weeks pregnant. And I, remember one night, it was, like, a Friday night, I believe, and I lost some of my mucus plug, and I think it was just from all the coughing. Totally. And I was, like Oh my god. Started getting this anxious feeling of, like, I'm not ready. Like, I'm you know? Even though thirty seven weeks, like, I was totally comfortable having the baby at home at that point, but I just had felt like I would go to forty weeks. Yeah. Like, that's when I delivered my first. And so it was interesting to, like, feel into that. It was really maybe one of the first times I'd felt, like, some anxiety around the birthing process or, like, just the time passing and that approaching feeling. And so I was with that for a little bit. And in those last few weeks, there's just, like, so many changes and so many sensations and tightenings. And is this something happening? Is it not? And it's pretty easy for me to just let that be and keep going, keep kind of just being in my life until until it's clear that, like, my birthing time is is now, and then I can't really continue on with things as I normally would. So, yeah, that continued for a couple weeks, really, where sometimes at night, I would just, like, pace around my house, like, with this feeling of, you know, you're kind of just tapping into a different realm, and you're also or I was also experiencing it's like you're crossing that threshold, and you're getting closer to the bigness that is birth. And as a second time mom, like, I could really sense, like, wow. This is like you just I knew what was going to come. Like, I knew what was coming. And it's just so big, and it's so expansive. And it's it's that line of, like, it's exhilaration. It's like, on one side is ecstasy and joy, and on the other side is, like, sheer terror or fear. And you're, like, riding this line of just, like, aliveness that's the middle path. And so that's what I really felt in those last weeks. And then I would say, like, in the thirty nine, forty weeks, somewhere around there, things just kinda started to settle, and I just felt some just more calmness and, just like a acceptance of, like, the the time is coming. I don't know what day it's gonna be or, like, any of that, but, yeah, it's I'm ready. That that just that feeling of, like, readiness. And in my last week of pregnancy, it was just really sweet. I spent a lot of time with my son, and we were outside a lot. It was really, like, noticeably the season was changing, so it was like this because my daughter was born, I think, a day after the spring equinox. So it was, like, a full moon that week, and there was a huge migration of monarch butterflies, like, through where I live. So I was outside a lot and just, yeah, enjoying the the change of seasons and, like, that mark of new life that, you know, was soon gonna be, like, in my arms. Yeah. So that was that kinda marked the end of my pregnancy. I remember that. And I remember the jasmine plant that I have, like, right outside my front door was blooming, and there were just so many, like, signs of spring and this new energy coming in.
Speaker 3
That's so sweet.
Speaker 4
Yeah. And, yeah, the last I think the night before my daughter was born was just like a normal evening. I don't really remember anything particular about it. I had spent some time with a friend of mine the day before. And then that Thursday night, I went to bed and just like a normal evening from what I recall. And I started having some sensations in the middle of the night, but that wasn't uncommon for me.
Speaker 3
Right. You know, even pacing.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. In a I wasn't pacing pacing, like, in the middle of the night, but it would just be, like, in the evenings. I would just get kind of amped up about something, and then I would just be, like, a caged animal in a way. Totally.
Speaker 3
It really makes me think Yeah. About how many women well, the vast majority of women who are, you know, birthing in the system, if they carry past forty weeks, that their final weeks of pregnancy are marked by, non stress tests and visits to the doctor or the midwife and castor oil or membrane sweeps and just, nearly constant assessment and diagnostic. And, you know, it's so you don't even get time to notice that the jasmine's blooming.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Oh, yeah. You don't get
Speaker 3
that slow down, you know, seasonal primal pause that happens before you give birth, particularly if you're carrying, you know, to the later weeks where you, like you said, you kind of do get to settle in and, you know, know, like, if you really had gone into labor at thirty seven, most people do not feel settled and and ready at thirty seven, and it might happen anyway, and that would be okay too. But, yeah, that that settling that you spoke to of what happens, you know, after forty weeks is so robbed for some women, and it's just so, you know, it's just so nice to kind of remember that what you just described was so simple and so integrated into your normal life and so beautiful, and that that is what her birth is marked by, that the butterflies were coming through your town. You know? It's
Speaker 4
just Yeah. I mean, it's simple and sweet. But those are the things I remember. Mhmm. You know? And it's not about, like, what someone was telling me I needed to do or driving my car anywhere or anything like that at all.
Speaker 3
So Okay. So it's nighttime. You're starting to feel some things.
Speaker 4
Yeah. I'm feeling some sensations, but I'm mostly sleeping through. So, like, I have and this happened when my son's birth too. Like, I have just this really odd ability to, like, will myself back to sleep and be like, no. This isn't this isn't happening. I'm just gonna go back to sleep. And, like, yeah. So that happened again, and I just would wake up occasionally. But, you know, I'm not talking about, like, anything that even got me out of bed. Like, just kind of a restless night of con fairly consistent, sensations. And so then it was, like, seven thirty in the morning. I got up finally, and I was just, like, wide awake. And I was like, okay. I'm gonna get up and see, like, if this is gonna die down like it has before or, you know, what's gonna happen? I don't know. So I got up and, like, I was just both my husband and my son were still asleep, and I was just kinda walking around and, like, doing my morning stuff. And it didn't stop. And it was, like, definitely, you know, it was clear that, like, it wasn't going away and, like, it was fairly consistent. I wasn't, like, timing or anything. But so then finally, like, around eight or so, I would say I woke up my husband and was like, think it could be now. Why don't you get up and, like, make me something to eat, I think is what I asked for at that point. Hot water and towels. Yeah. So he went downstairs and made me something to eat. My son got up, and I was just kind of in the bedroom and, during that time. And I think it was, like, by eight thirty AM, I had, you know, text a few close friends and, let them know that it was probably my birthing time. And I took, like, one last belly shot.
Speaker 3
Oh, awesome.
Speaker 4
And then after that, I was like, definitely, the intensity picked up, and it was, you know, at a point where I wasn't really on my phone anymore or anything like that. So I was still in the bedroom at that time, and I just remember I think that's really when it was like, okay. Baby's definitely coming today. Or that's how I that's what I felt in that moment. And I just remember being, like, so overwhelmed with just so much gratitude that I was, like, entering this process again. And, yeah, just feeling like birth is such a revelation of, just who I really am as a person, and I could, just for those moments, feel, like, so alive and connected and, give myself over to the process that was happening. Right?
Speaker 3
Totally. I mean, it's it's the most divine feeling I've ever had.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Especially in the early part where before it gets fucking crazy.
Speaker 4
Yeah. So true. So true. Yeah. So, at that time, like, I think I my husband was just kind of quietly working in the background, like, getting the birthing, tub set up and just certain things that I wanted to have in place that he knew to do. He kind of had his little checklist of things to go through, and so he was working quietly on those things. And I was just in my bedroom kind of in the in the darkest area. I mean, it was daytime. Right? And it was, like, a very sunny day out. So I had the like, we have blackout curtains. So I had those pulled shut. But, yeah. So I was just kind of, like, on hands and knees or walking around a little bit during that time. And, yeah, I mean, it was just clear to me, like, these are strong and effective. Like, things are happening. Things are changing. And my daughter was active, and I had no, like, concerns about her, like, how things were going or whatever. And, yeah, that just went on for a couple of hours. And, you know, it's just slow and steady, like, picking up and picking up in intensity. Well, we had a doula who was on call for us, essentially. And she was another she was someone I met through Freebird Society when when it was a Facebook group, and she had had a free birth the previous year. I think my ideal I and and, like, a lot of women's ideals is, like, probably similar to mine is to have a friend on call or someone close family, someone who's comfortable with rebirth to come if needed for whatever the reason may be. But for me, it was really important to have someone, available to help with my son because he was gonna be there the whole time. And so I thought if it's really long, if, you know, whatever might happen, I mean, it's possible that having another adult there would be useful. So that was kind of our plan, and I definitely wanted I personally wanted someone there afterwards to help clean up and, like, help just with, yeah, just with, like, getting all the towels into the washer. And, like, I didn't wanna have have my husband doing that kind of stuff when Yeah. We just had a our baby. So yeah. So it was from about eight thirty to nine thirty or ten probably. And, you know, I'm I'm, like, marking these times and stuff, and I know this because I looked back on the video footage more than anything else. Like, I don't you know, it's like, I couldn't have necessarily placed these unless I had the context of having video footage and being like, okay. This is kind of how when you start to put the pieces together, it looks like this. But, yeah, around ten thirty, I needed a change. Like, I it was I was still keeping the pace with everything. It didn't feel like, too much. But at the same time, I was just like, I needed to shift something. And so I got that's when I got in the tub. I asked my husband to fill up the tub, and I got in. And, yeah, that was just, like, such a welcome relief. And that was something I didn't have the experience of during my first birth because I didn't get in the tub until I was already pushing
Speaker 3
Right.
Speaker 4
Basically. Yeah. Yeah. So I like, yeah. From that, it was just, like, such relief and relaxation, and I just remember the feeling of, like, the warm water, and I just kind of sank in there. And I was just like, yes. Yes. This is exactly what I needed. I just the feeling I had, like, throughout that time was, like, one of integration and, like, I guess the the tone was just that I was keeping the rhythm and, like, although things were happening happening quickly, I I was it was like I was, processing everything as it was happening, and I could kind of have this witness view over the birth even though I was deep in the experience as well. So it's like this really, I mean, it's really trippy to explain it in that way, but that's how it was.
Speaker 3
It sounds like you're describing deep presence. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Like, being able to keep up with everything that's happening, having this witness element. Like, that that's pretty much, like, the definition of complete
Speaker 4
Right? Yeah. I yeah. So I was just really in it. And, like I said, I got into the tub around ten thirty, and, that's around the time where I also told my husband, Thomas, to let Britney, our doula, know to come. And so she headed, but she was, like, an hour or so away, I wanna say. So, yeah, I was just in the tub. I had my birth playlist on. My son was kind of, like, coming in and out of the room because he was there for the whole thing. And he was just so so sweet. I was that was one of my concerns actually was, like, how's he gonna be at the birth? Like, what if he needs something? And I didn't really need a lot from my husband at that time. So my husband was kind of, like, you know, making sure he was okay and then would bring me water or whatever I needed, which was pretty minimal. And, yeah, it was just, like, super peaceful, and there wasn't a lot going on. And, yeah, my son would come in and out occasionally and, like, tell me that he saw a helicopter outside or, like, whatever it was that he was doing. And, you know, I got more and more vocal as the time went on. And, he came in at one point, and I was, like, in the middle of a sensation, and I was, vocalizing. And then afterwards, he's like, mama, I'm here. I'm here. And I was just like, oh my gosh. It's so, so sweet. So sweet. It was just so nice to have him there for, yeah, just to know that he was part of the experience and that he was, you know, having his own experience that a two year old can have. Right? Like, he was having his own experience of birth of the besides his own birth. Like, that's his first imprint of Totally. What a
Speaker 3
birth is like. Well, and it sounds like he was really not annoying.
Speaker 4
No. Not at all. Like, I mean, that's always the with toddlers. You know? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Being there, but sounds like he was
Speaker 4
I mean, he's just a super, sensitive, like, sweet boy. He's also very determined and willful and all of those toddler things. But in that moment, I think he could sense, like, the shift
Speaker 3
in Mhmm.
Speaker 4
In energy and the shift in, like, my, what I was doing. And, yeah, I mean, it was just like, I thought maybe he would ask to get in the pool or whatever, but he never did. Like, he never he would only get close enough. You know? Like, he would get close, and then he would go do his own thing for a while. And he always knew that we were right there if he needed something. So, yeah, that was just, like, a really sweet part of the experience is having him there. And I'm really glad that I did. Mhmm. So, yeah, I was working pretty hard at that point. And, yeah, there was this element of allowing all parts of myself to be present. So, like, I had this kind of internal dialogue going on of, like, positive, like, affirmations and, like, just, you know, telling myself, okay. You're doing it. Like, you you've got this. And that was kind of going on internally a lot of the time. And then there would be these kind of moments of, doubt or, like, you know, this is I would just say out loud, like, this is really fucking intense or whatever it was. And, yeah, there was just this interesting dynamic of, like, I could be totally doubting myself and totally, like, knowing that I'm doing it at the same time. So these different aspects of yourself that, like, come into congruence that you can see and, like, you kinda get to choose, like, who you're listening to more, who has more of the airtime. But you're also not, like, pushing down another part of the story or another voice that's, in the narrative, if that makes sense. Yeah. It is just like the passage that you're walking through, whether you, like, whether you're doubtful or fearful or, like, whatever voice is gonna take the lead, you know, whichever part of your personality is gonna come through. But what I loved about, like, that experience was, like, I didn't feel like I had to necessarily, censor or hide or, like, come off as more confident than I actually was or anything. It was just like, this is my experience. This is what's happening right now. And take it or leave it, like because it was really only my husband there watching at this point and, like, giving me any kind of feedback, and he was just affirming what I was saying. And, you know, if I said, you know, this is really intense or this is really hard, Yeah. This is really hard. Like, it's really simple. Right? It's like
Speaker 3
It's like the essence of a safe team, though. You know? I mean, at this point, it's just it's just Thomas, but that's what women that's all women need to go there, that you were able to go there and and feel the doubt or the insecurity or the moments or the expression or whatever it was that's coming up and that no one's trying to hero you or fix it or, quiet it. You know? It's just holding.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. So that was, all happening and kind of also in my mind and thinking, like, how much longer is this gonna be? Am I just getting started? Like, this is feeling, like, really intense right now. And I think that's probably like, looking back on it, I was probably going through transition at that time. Like, I didn't have a very clear marked point where it was, like, transition where I was, like, vomiting or something or, like, you know, having some big thing happen. Yeah. So about eleven thirty maybe or, like, eleven fifteen, my doula arrived and checked in, and I asked her to get some more hot water for the tub. At that point, it was kind of like I was getting a little cold, so she did that. And then,
Speaker 3
I
Speaker 4
asked her to go get me some crushed ice, which is, like, just like I had this overwhelming desire for crushed ice. And, so, yeah, she left to go get the crushed ice, and this was, like, not, like, going downstairs to get crushed ice. Like, I don't have crushed ice in my fridge or something. So she left again. And I got out of the tub to go to the bathroom. And, and so, yeah, I had a couple, like, contractions, sensations on the toilet, and that was, like, a nice change. And I felt started feeling, like, a little pushy. So I was like, okay. This is a good moving in the right direction. I think I had some bloody show at that time too, but my waters are still, like, intact at that point. So, I got back in, and, that was maybe, like, eleven thirty or eleven forty five. And pretty shortly after that, like, I kind of started that involuntary pushing at the top of the wave. And I was so excited about that. Like, just the the feeling of, you know, that I'm yeah. Just the relief that I feel that only comes with pushing, if that makes sense. It's like there is a sense of relief that comes with that for me personally. So I was excited about that, and I had a little mirror. So I was kind of, like, trying I was trying to see, like, under the water if I could see anything in, like, while I was pushing, and it wasn't really working. So then I asked my husband to just look, and he's like, yeah. I can you know? Like, after I'd gone through this for maybe fifteen, twenty minutes, he's like, yeah. I can see. There's some hair. Like, and so then I was very, very excited about that. And I remember just, like, looking at my husband and being like, I just want the baby to come out. Duh. Like, desperately. Like, I just want the baby to come out. And he's like, yeah. We're working on that. That's good. So, yeah, we just, I kept working on that. Right? I just, like, was in it, and at it's, like, getting more and more nonlinear, but I remember, like, this overwhelming desire to sleep, like, just came over me. And I was just like, that's all I could think about. Like, I could not think about anything except for the fact that I just, like, wanted to sleep so so desperately. And, that kind of continued maybe for, like, ten minutes or so, and I was getting a little more breaks at that point. Yeah. I think I would just kind of, like, doze off in between, in between waves. And it was really trippy because in my mind, I knew that, like, that's normal. And I also was like, how am I gonna keep going if I'm so tired? And and when I watched the video footage, it's like I really would just, like, have a sensation and be on all fours or something, and then afterwards, just, like, pass out almost. You know? Just, like, eyes closed, like, completely relaxed. And so that went on for a couple rounds. And then, yeah, and then I was super alert again. And I could really feel her head right there. And, it was important for me to just to have a slower emergence than I had with my son. But I could tell that she was bigger than my son. So it was kind of just taking longer anyways, for her actual emergence. Like, the pushing phase was probably about the same as it was with my first, but her actual, like, head and body coming out was a little bit longer. He kind of just, like, shot out at some point. But her head kind of emerged halfway, and I could kinda feel it in my hands and give a little bit of counterpressure. And then, the rest of her head came out. And then I got a nice break, and so I kinda shifted. At that point, I had been, like, in a deep squat and that and then I shifted forward. So I was, like, kind of on all fours at that point, but still, like, in the water. And I asked my husband to come in behind me because I wasn't sure, like, if I was gonna stay in that position or not for her body to emerge. And so then with the next wave, like, she like, I felt her shoulders kind of, you know, turn and come out. And I thought my husband was, like, pulling her out, which he would never do. So so he said his hands, like, never even touched her before mine did, so he was just right there. And I remember I said, slow, slow, slow, and then her body was out. And, I just, like, quickly maneuvered so I could get her. So I, like, you know, moved her through my legs or something. I don't know exactly how I did that, but and then I brought her up and
Speaker 3
Cord intact?
Speaker 4
Yeah. Cord intact. I mean, I like, that was such a rare occurrence that happened in my son's birth. I just even going into her birth, I was like, that's just Yeah. So rare. It's not gonna happen again. Like, of all the things that can happen, that's probably not gonna happen again. But, yeah, her cord was intact and, long enough, you know, that I could bring her to my chest and everything. And so I did that, and I think I, like, instinctually, like, kissed her mouth or face. And, you know, I was just like, everything else kinda faded away, and you're just, like, tunnel vision to to baby, like, tunnel vision to checking in on how this little person is. And she seemed to be doing just fine. She kinda, like, gave a little cry and then sounded a little, like, gurgly or had some liquid or something in her nose. So I just turned her, you know, like, held her on my arm so she was kind of, like, able to drain that out. And that didn't that worked and made her kind of upset. She started crying. So then I was just like, alright. You're, you know, you're fine. I brought her back up to my chest, and I said that's, I think, when I finally said, like, it's a girl, which I had noticed right away, but, like, I didn't announce it to my husband at that point. And I was, like, patting her back, and she had the thickest, like, cheesiest, burnix all over her. So I was rubbing that in and, yeah, it was just, like, perfect. She just kind of curled up on my chest, and we sat in a tub. And, around that time, my doula returned with crushed ice that I, like, didn't care about
Speaker 3
anymore. Oh my god. That poor doula.
Speaker 4
She's like she's like, oh my god, mama. You did it. And I was like, yeah.
Speaker 3
That's so funny. But it also is so perfect. Right? That,
Speaker 4
you know,
Speaker 3
you just had this,
Speaker 4
you know, not in
Speaker 3
any sort of negative way, but just that you, like, sent the the stranger away.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. You know? It's just, like, exactly what I wanted Yeah. I needed to be. Like, I couldn't have, like, planned that timing the way it went down, but it was perfect. So, yeah, she was just there and, kind of sitting off to the side and, you know, I don't know. Some minutes went by. I don't know, like, exactly how long or anything. But at that point, I was ready to get out of the tub. So and I noticed, but I felt like my placenta was ready to come out, I guess, I should say. Like, I think I had some separate like, a separation bleed while I was in the tub still. But, yeah, I just felt like there was it was ready to kinda complete the birthing process. So I got out of the tub and slowly made my way to the bedroom, which was, like, just a few steps away. And I had a big bowl, and I kind of, squatted over the bowl. And at that point, I was still holding my daughter. And so then I just, like, followed the cord with one of my hands and could feel, like, that the placenta was really right there. And so I squatted down and, like, gave a little traction, and nothing happened. And so then I, like, handed her to my husband for a moment and changed positions and then did the same thing, and it just came right out into the bowl. And then, yeah, I just laid down in bed and, let her kind of find her way to start nursing. And
Speaker 1
Well, let's let's let's pivot to that
Speaker 3
then really quick around the nursing Yeah. If you're
Speaker 4
ready. We can, yeah, we can talk about that.
Speaker 3
So you shared, you know, with your previous story some some really serious breastfeeding difficulties, challenges, and your, you know, and your, enormous effort and commitment to do what you could, with those challenges in your in the other episode from from first season
Speaker 4
Mhmm. Which
Speaker 3
you guys could go listen to. So how did you navigate that that line of wanting to rewrite this story, you know, with your daughter and not project fear and anxiety and, you know, all this stuff, that's would be very understandable to be concerned about. But I know, you know, because I know you that you were really doing your work to not do that and to be really open to a new story. Can you speak to that a little bit of kind of how you
Speaker 4
Yeah. Navigated that? Yeah. So, well, I did go on to breastfeed my son, until even when I was pregnant. So until he was about twenty months old. So and we had a really easeful, kind of weaning process that definitely happened because of pregnancy. I think, otherwise, he would have kept going. But
Speaker 3
How many months did it take to get easeful? Because I don't remember that part.
Speaker 4
Oh, well, a very long time. Six months maybe. Okay. And even then, I breastfed him with a nipple shield the entire time. So, you know, like, was it ever completely easeful? I mean, not compared to what I'm experiencing now, but, like, it worked for us for a while for a long time. Right? Twenty months is, like, a good amount of time for what Yeah. We can do.
Speaker 1
It was amazing. And That's
Speaker 4
all I wanna do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, I had this underlying, like, just this deep internal sense that, like, that it would go differently. And, so I would try to allow myself to rest in knowing that and also know that, like, I actively wanted to do things to, like, heal my past experience. And you know what? It was intense. Like, during my pregnancy, it not so much. But during my pregnancy, what I focused on was just, like, breast massage and, like, simple things just to, like, have a healthy relationship with my own breasts again. And I because I have so I have scar tissue from, getting an abscess drained that I developed, like, very, very early on breastfeeding my son. And so I worked on that scar tissue a little bit and then including, like, breast massage with my partner and, having that, like, be more I guess, including breasts in more of a pleasure type of practice or pleasure sense or a part of my sexual identity again. And that was in and of itself, I think, very healing and, like, helpful, as I was moving towards when I would do, like, the deeper work of both, like, learning how to breastfeed my daughter, like, us learning together and also rewriting or rewiring the trauma that I experienced with my son. So once, my daughter was well, I actually, before my daughter was born, I decided that I would work with only one breastfeeding professional. And, like, I knew exactly who it was gonna be. It was this woman that, is a not an a lactation consultant. So she's a breastfeeding, like, educator counselor, but she's also a craniosacral therapist, and that's what, like, my biggest interest was in. Yeah. It's because she often works with babies that, may be diagnosed with tongue ties, that don't wanna have revisions, and I knew that I didn't wanna get a revision for this baby if at all possible. I mean, I wasn't ruling it out, like, a hundred percent, but I felt pretty strongly about not doing a revision this time. So I found someone. Her name's Luca Johnson, and she's in Orange County, and she's really fantastic. And I really just thought, like, this is gonna be the one person that I turn to for support, and I just kind of let her know. Like, she kinda knew about my past history with my son, and we had a visit before I gave birth. And then I had planned on her coming about once a week after, after Evony was born. And some of I, like, I I knew that it would be a lot of lactation support, but she's also a postpartum doula. So, like, she could do other stuff for me too, which is great. So she was just, like, my one she was, like, my best ally during that time. And instead of I think with my son, I got a lot of input, like, from a lot of different professionals. And, like, this time, I really tried to stick or I I mean, I didn't try. Like, I only asked for support from other mothers who had maybe had some similar experiences or from her, who and she studied a lot about, like, how different tension patterns can kind of sometimes create or mimic patterns that look like tongue tie, essentially. Mhmm. Totally. That makes sense. So, yeah, that was, like, my main strategy and, like, just I had a lot of, like, breastfeeding also affirmations that I was kind of doing consistently before she was born. And, then, yeah, once she was born, like, we had some trouble in the beginning. So and, of course, like, the second you, you know, all that trauma was triggered. And the in the first week of breastfeeding, because that's when I just had, like, a lot of nipple soreness, and I got this terrible crack that was, like, the bane of my No. And, I remember standing in the shower and just being like, I'm so broken. Like, what is wrong with me? You know? And that was just kind of that whole thing coming crashing back down on me. And even though I knew, like, that I would move through that, like, it still felt, really intense. And now I'm on the other side of all of that, and, like, I can talk about it, and it doesn't feel triggering or anything. But it was really intense in those first weeks when I was, yeah, just, like, getting a deeper latch with her and wondering, like, if I'm doing
Speaker 3
the right thing, like, constantly, like Well, your success is still unknown.
Speaker 4
Yeah. It's like, is it gonna work out? Am I doing the wrong thing? Should I be getting a revision? Like, just all those things kind of the those stories going through my mind. And I noticed even, like, as I so, you know, I had I passed through a big kind of trauma gate in, like, around day six, which was, like, the same day that my son got his first revision. And so in so then I found the pattern. I'm like, okay. I know that, like, these things are gonna come up around the same time that I had the experience with my son. So then I could, like, track it. Okay. Mhmm. I'm five weeks. That's when I got mastitis with my son. That's when this and this happened. So, yeah, I would I would pass through those gates and, like, know that I needed extra support at that time, essentially. That's what I mean. Yeah. It's just I I needed a lot of reassurance that things were going well.
Speaker 3
So at what point postpartum did you get where you were like, things are going well?
Speaker 4
I mean, I would have, I would have, you know, it's like you move in and out. Like, there's that pendulation of, like, things are going well and then, you know, and then circling back to the the doubt or the anxiety or the, like, hypervigilance around. Is it really going well or is it it all fall apart?
Speaker 3
The pendulum stayed. Right?
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. So at some point, I would say around I was so it was, like, constantly getting so constantly, I was spending longer time in the area where things were where I could recognize and really feel that things were going well for her and I. But until I really came all the way fully out of it without dipping back into, like, doubt or, hypervigilance or something was probably about three months, I would say.
Speaker 3
That makes sense. Yeah. It's a huge shift at that time.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. And but yeah. I mean, Luca was just very, very patient with me and, willing to, like, keep reminding me, like, this is what I'm noticing, you know, how great she's doing. Do you see that this is happening? And so that was just, like, what I needed, I I think. It's just that, like, skilled reflection and someone who could hold their ground with me, you know, because I was having a really intense reaction and experience, and she could just keep saying, like, I don't think that getting a revision is the right idea. Mhmm. Yes. Maybe someone else would say that she has a tongue tie, but I don't think it's gonna help. And yeah.
Speaker 3
Can you contextualize a little bit more on this this breastfeeding journey with your with your most recent baby other than, how do I put this? Like, what were the physical difficulties that
Speaker 4
Yeah. So her lash in yeah. So her lash in the very beginning was just, like, shallow and painful, which I could pretty much get with certain technique. I could work with it. Right? And once I got past that, what I became more concerned with was, like, she was losing suction sometimes. Like and I didn't know if it was because of flow or because, like, she was having trouble. And that was, like, the thing that I became, like, hyper aware of is, like, how often she was losing suction and kinda making that clicking kind of noise that people tend to say is, like, a tongue tie issue.
Speaker 3
But forgive my ignorance. Why why would that be why would how was that manifesting as a problem?
Speaker 4
Yeah. No. That that's a great question. Like, how it why is that a problem?
Speaker 3
I don't know.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. No. I was it's like I thought it was a problem.
Speaker 3
You know too much. Right?
Speaker 4
Well, yeah. I know too much. And it's just like I think with just like with birth, like, in breastfeeding, we've we don't know what's normal anymore. Right? And I've heard from reading stuff about tongue tie and, like, listening to other mothers and all this stuff that clicking is a sign of having a tongue tie, and it means x y z or babies maybe not getting enough or not transferring well or whatever. So then I saw that, okay, my baby's losing suction occasionally and clicking. But that's
Speaker 3
what I was wondering is was it manifesting in low weight gain or fussiness or, you know, being unsatisfied? Or
Speaker 4
No. No. That was happening. Yeah. It was yeah.
Speaker 3
You were really trying to be on the on the offense about
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to be like, I don't wanna have a problem in the future. Totally. But, yeah, all the other signs were, like, normal. Right. That's heavy. You would for what you would expect for a breastfed infant. Mhmm. And, Well, you were so
Speaker 3
you were so wise to go with just one person that you really had already, you know, created a relationship with. Because, I mean, what a what a difference just right there to not be inundated and overwhelmed by all these different opinions. And, I mean, obviously, you experienced it with your son, and it's so common. And just everyone has opinions, and there's so many professionals. And it's like
Speaker 4
you'll Yeah. And you're just so open. And, like, after birthing, it's just like everyone's opinion seems to matter and, like, it's hard to find, like, that embodied place of, like, yes. This is this is the path I'm gonna take. So that's just what I was more clear on, I think, this time is, like, surrendering to the process and knowing that I'm gonna get support in this way. Mhmm. And I'm only gonna take action that I feel really aligned with.
Speaker 3
So the the woman that helped you helped with some positional stuff and some emotional support. I was just trying to kinda get a like, did anything else really need to happen? Because you didn't do the tie and
Speaker 4
Yeah. I mean, she did some bodywork for both of us, but I I feel like that was, for me, that was definitely more just, like, nervous system regulation and, like, you know, clearing out some stuff from the actual birth, like, helping my body recover and, working through the trauma. For my daughter, like, I do think she you know, like, any baby's gonna maybe have some tension patterns or holding from gestation and gestation and birthing. And so I think she just really, like, helped her with that. Mhmm. And I with that, I did notice an improvement in her overall, latch. Like, I had less trouble getting her to latch deeper, and, she would lose suction less. But a lot that too also just, like, resolved itself with time and with my supply kind of regulating itself. Yeah. Because she was she was kind of in that kind of choking phase of, like, overwhelm. Mhmm. But she was also just, like, she could keep with it. You know? She wouldn't give up or something. So, Normal baby stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Just stuff that I mean, you know, she spit up and and that sort of thing too, but nothing that was, like, troubling to me or outside of the normal from what I understand. Mhmm. But, yeah, I mean, it's I've just I've learned a lot through the experience because a couple other, mom friends that I have that gave birth also this year also, one for sure, has, like, a tongue tied at the tip, you know, like, that classic, kind of indented tip of the tongue tongue tie. And she chose to not do a revision and, like, it's just, like, it's just working for them. Nice. And she's like, yeah. I just, like, you know, we figure it out together. And another friend of mine also was recommended to get a tongue tie and decide or tongue tie revision and decided not to. So they've kind of also been allies during this time of just, knowing what works and how to work around challenges if there are any and also recognizing when maybe everything is just fine the way it is.
Speaker 3
Right. That's what's interesting about your story is that that, you know, the challenges from before, color, of course, you know, what you look for in the next one. And then, I mean, everything you've described about your daughter sounds incredibly normal, you know, just adjustment period stuff. And so that you had the foresight to front load your care appropriately in a non overwhelming way. And, you know, you just really were willing to work through your own shit so that it could not be a problem. Like, I could totally see how, you know, the same a woman in your same situation, I mean, it could have gone so different. You know, if you just, you know, so many women just embody this story, like, I can't breastfeed or breastfeeding is so hard or my babies don't or dah dah dah. You know, we hear these stories all the time, and they don't, you know, they don't they don't have the tools yet or whatever to really sit with those stories and how they're self fulfilling. And,
Speaker 4
it
Speaker 3
just sounds like you really approached it with a lot of curiosity and a lot of willingness to kinda tease out, like, what was yours and what was real and what was this and what was before and what were you moving through and letting go of and not rewriting and and that you have had a very different story with your daughter. Yeah. Because you were open to it also. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 4
Yeah. It's I mean, and it's been great, and now it's like, it's I don't even you know, I don't think about it really. It's like, yeah. I'm breastfeeding mom and, like, it just works. You know? And, I mean, I I often always say too is, like, I think there, you know, there's, like, this really hyper awareness and, you know, hypervigilance around, like, baby's latch and, like, are how are they doing? Are they doing this and that and the other thing? And it's like, I mean, babies are changing all the time. Right. And they're people, so they're not milk extraction machines. Mhmm. And, like, I just wouldn't wanna have, you know, see my daughter as, like, this being that always has to have the perfect latch and, like, always has to breastfeed in this perfect way or in this particular way. And, I mean, that's just not What does that even mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I there's just, there's a lot there, I think, to explore around, breastfeeding and what's, you know, what's, quote, normal for infants.
Speaker 3
And, again, going back to that, you chose not to be inundated by all these different professionals. You were able to see that Mhmm. In a
Speaker 4
way that I don't
Speaker 3
even think the most, like, conscious self aware person with twenty people in postpartum telling them their opinions would be able to do. It's just it's too much.
Speaker 4
It's really It's too much input. Much
Speaker 3
information. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4
I felt overwhelmed with my son. I only had input from, like, probably three people, and that was already way too much. You know? Yeah. So Yeah. I hear you. Yeah. It is very a very, like, fulfilling and full circle experience. Totally. Yeah. I love it.
Speaker 3
I could totally see the birth in my head. See her coming in with a bag of crushed ice. Yeah. It cracks me up. It's so funny. That's awesome. It just sounds so perfect and how it was Yeah. So perfectly designed to play out that way. And so proud of you and your commitment to nursing your daughter and doing your work and, you know, you can you can articulate it so well. I'm excited for other women to hear this and and really trust that they will relate to it greatly.
Speaker 4
Yeah. I hope so. I definitely hope so.
Speaker 3
Awesome. Anything else to add?
Speaker 4
I don't think so. Thank you. I'm so grateful just to share her story and,
Speaker 1
Make a little time capsule. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Awesome. Thank you so much. That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the Free Birth Podcast. Thanks for joining us, and remember, your body, your choice. Lots of love.
