Speaker 0
Into the wild, I'm going into the wild, I am. It's been a wild freedom child, since I left my roots back home. Into the wild I'm good. Into the wild I am. It's been a while, freedom child, since I left my roots back home.
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Free Birth Society podcast. This is a radical space for women who are ready to celebrate their autonomous choices in birth, motherhood, and beyond. Together, we'll learn about wild birth through personal narrative, we'll explore the politics of birth, and we'll analyze everything that relates to our lives as women from a feminist perspective. Here's your host, Emilee Saldaya.
Speaker 0
It's been a wild freedom since I've left my rules back home.
Speaker 2
It's Black Friday. All weekend long, enjoy forty percent off off each and every one of our static courses, including the complete guide to free birth. And we aren't done. This year, I'm including our private membership in the deal as well. Apply this weekend and receive forty percent off the annual price for life. Go to free birth society courses dot com to apply for the membership and check out our course catalog. Happy shopping. This week, we have my friend Emily from Melbourne, Australia. Emily is a graduate of the Radical Birthkeeper School, and her free birth journey began with a beautiful conscious conception. Emily shares with us how her wild pregnancy decimated her, taking one hundred percent responsibility for her birth and her baby and her simple yet powerful practice of consistently returning to trust. Emily's story reminds us of the simple magic of birth when a mother is surrounded by love and reflected back her power.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'll start from the start. Yeah. So just a sort of quick overview of my first. We struggled to conceive. It took us about eighteen months.
Speaker 2
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
I got told, nah. Can't fall pregnant naturally. You guys are gonna have to do IVF. I rejected that notion and went and did some, Chinese medicine, acupuncture, a few other things, and we were pregnant within three months. And that sort of was what started me looking for alternatives. Because before that, you know, I was like, well, you get your private health insurance and you hire an obstetrician because that's the best care and, so that's that was sort of my turning point. And just by, you know, pure dumb luck really, found an amazing home birth midwife. I'm sure a lot of your listeners will know Martina from Melbourne. So I I had her for my first birth, which was, you know, completely hands off. I was never, you know, pushed or coerced into anything even during my pregnancy. And I walked out of that going, I could have done that myself. Like, it was just, it was it was what I would call an empowering experience. And, you know, there there was a a couple of things that sort of, like, irritated me about the birth, because Martina got suspended during my pregnancy. So we actually had a different registered midwife there who was, you know, in other room most of the time. But a couple of comments, you know, a couple of little things that I heard really got to me during my labour. And and if I, you know, really had to pick at that birth, everything that I was unhappy with was due to that registered midwife being there. So walking into my second pregnancy, I had the intention Martina had had it in her registration by then and, we were we'd developed a really good friendship. She was just a really good friend of mine, but obviously, you know, had that medical background. So walking into that pregnancy, my intention was to just have her there as a friend. And the more I sort of sat with that and thought about it, the more I realized that just having her in my space was an intervention. Because even though I knew I could do it on my own, having her there would mean that I would turn to her in my moments of crisis. You know, I'd I'd look to her for reassurance. I'd look to her for guidance. And, you know, I really knew I didn't need that, and I really wanted to have the experience where, you know, I was fully in control of the situation, and it would, I actually felt it was going to be protective for me because I would really need to be in tune with my body and need to be in tune with my baby because there was no one I could outsource any of it to.
Speaker 2
And it sounds like you realized that she couldn't be there as a friend, That that, like, wasn't a real it sounds like you really investigated what was underneath that. Right? Because it would have been very per particular of why her and not a different friend. You knew that you would look to her and that you I'm not saying you're not real friends. I'm saying that why it would be her versus another friend. Background. Yeah.
Speaker 3
It's
Speaker 2
because she's a midwife. Yeah. And that's not a bad stop
Speaker 3
being a midwife. Yeah.
Speaker 2
But it sounds like you just really, like, called yourself on that and investigated it. Yeah.
Speaker 3
And I had that discussion at length with her as well because, like, she she understood that that was a, you know, a possibility in my labor. And she's like, well, I'm just gonna be reflecting that back to you. Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And I
Speaker 3
was like, but I don't wanna do that in the first place. You know, that was that was my yeah. That was the the reasoning for me to not do it. And, it actually, I think, played out really well in the birth. So, yeah, it was it was definitely the right call for me. And, So at
Speaker 2
what point in your pregnancy do you cut cut like, you weren't, like, registered with her because she No. Was, like, unofficial. Right? So at what point do you realize that you don't want her present at your birth?
Speaker 3
I reckon it was probably at the maybe six or seven month mark. Mhmm. Yeah. It was probably around then that I I said, like, you know, no. This is this is how I'm gonna do it. And, yeah. It was good. It kind of, just solidified in my mind what what I wanted my birth to look like.
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
Because that kept sort of, you know, shifting during my pregnancy. And then from there and on, it was, it became a lot clearer for me.
Speaker 2
So what was your pregnancy like that second time around? What choices did you make differently? You got pregnant in the school.
Speaker 3
Yes. So I experienced a miscarriage just before the school started. Mhmm. And that was sort of the catalyst for everything, really. Because, you know, Martina was with me holding space for me when I was having my miscarriage. And I was like, I wanna do what you do and I wanna support women and da da da da da. And she was like, well, you can. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, have you heard of Freeway Society? And that that's sort of what got me yeah. Before that I'd never even heard of you guys. And that was sort of what, led me down that path to begin with. And then it was only I think it was only a few weeks before the school really started. So I, you know, signed up and off we went. And then, yeah, I so I had the miscarriage, I had a period, and then we fell pregnant that month, which was, yeah, pretty much the beginning of the school. And, it was I didn't have the wording around it at the time, but it was, you know, what what we're calling a conscious conception. It was it was so cool. It, so like, my husband and I were intimate, and then I turned around to him and I was like I high fived him. I'm like, we just made a baby, and it's a girl. Like, I was just so sure. And he was like, okay. Cool. Yeah. So cute. And then he, he went away camping or something. And I remember ten days later, I was, like, lying in bed and I had this, like, this, like, vertigo, like, this, like, sort of, like, overwhelming, like, dizziness feeling sort of hit me. And straight away, my head was like, oh, implantation. And I started doing pregnancy tests like a crazy person the next day. And of course, they're coming up negative because it was, like, a little too early. And I'd throw them like, I know I'm pregnant. I know I'm pregnant. And in hindsight, I don't know why I needed the test to tell you that I was pregnant because I was so sure. But then a couple of days later, I did get that positive. And that was the only, you know, routine prenatal testing, you know, anything that I did, for that pregnancy. I, I I had the the intention to to have a completely wild pregnancy, you know, with the, you know, the caveat on that that, you know, if I felt like I wanted to do something, that I was gonna do it. Like, I wasn't, you know, being, you know, dogmatic about it or anything. And I think that's important to say, though, because so many people are like, oh my god, it's so irresponsible, and why do you hate medicine, and, you know, all that crap. And I'm like, Western medicine is absolutely lifesaving in an emergency. Pregnancy is not an emergency.
Speaker 2
Right. People want to reduce our choices to, like, childish. Mhmm. You know? That it's that it's, egotistical, that it's, what's the word? Like, hard headed
Speaker 3
Like, we're being rebellious children.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 3
It's not that at all.
Speaker 2
Oh my god. It's so rude.
Speaker 3
And it's I I really take issue with people saying that it's irresponsible because I think it's actually the exact opposite of that because I am taking one hundred percent responsibility. I am taking all the responsibility. I'm not outsourcing any of that to a test or a person or anyone else. You know? I am responsible for my body and my baby. And that sentence is just so matter of fact to me, but that's so radical for other people. I'm seeing it, like, you know, I'm I'm still relatively new to birth work, but every birth trauma debrief I've done with someone or every woman that's come to me for a subsequent pregnancy, it's because they had a shitty experience the first time, and they've had that trauma and they've gone, surely there's something better. And then they start to to look at their decisions. Whereas before, it's just you get caught in the riptide. Like, from that first doctor's appointment where you go to your GP and go, I'm pregnant. They're like, okay. Well, here's your referral for the obstetrician and off you go. You know? And I don't think anyone really realizes what they're getting themselves into. No. How why would they? How could they? Yeah. And women that, you know, talk about their birth experiences well, the the majority of women that talk about their birth experiences, it's it's, you know, they've got sort of disassociated from the trauma and gone, well, thank God I was in the hospital because x y zed. And so we don't even have the stories of other people to warn us because, you know, their perception of what's happened is so skewed.
Speaker 2
Totally.
Speaker 3
So, yeah. Wild pregnancy, which was that was I feel like I did all my all my hard work. Like, you know how you say birth will decimate you? Like, my pregnancy decimated me. It was that was my hard work. I and I think, you know, coming off the back of a miscarriage, it was maybe like an added layer for me.
Speaker 2
Sure.
Speaker 3
Because, you know, that first that whole first trimester, every time I'd go to the bathroom, I'd when I'd wipe and I'd look for blood. Of course. And every time I'd do that, I'd think, okay. Well, you know, if I see blood, what does that mean? What what can I do about it? Nothing. You know? It is what it is. And I I was really getting to a point during this pregnancy where I looked at my miscarriage as my body's genius. Something was not right, you know, whether it was, you know, physiologically with the baby, there was something not right, or spiritually, the timing wasn't right. Something was wasn't right. So, you know, my body knew exactly what to do to to safely end that pregnancy for me. So, you know, that was I I just wrote out that miscarriage at home, and I didn't need any intervention. I didn't need anyone's help with that. My body knew exactly what to do. So, you know, every time I'd I'd look for blood, and I'd be like, okay. Well, you know, it's we're still good. Keep going. You know, who knows what's gonna happen tomorrow? And then I got past that first trimester, and then I'd be like, oh, oh, I'm sure my son was kicking by now. Why isn't this baby kicking? And then again, well, what are you gonna do about it? Nothing. So return to trust. And then when she started kicking, I was like, I'm sure that my son was kicking, you know, harder than this. You know, it was just it was such a mind game. It was just and, it took a it took a long while to sort of sink into it. And, I I also had a lot of, other people's comments really got to me as well, because they were like, you know, I had I had, you know, my own story that I was telling myself that maybe this baby's not growing properly, and then I'd had people telling me, you barely look pregnant. You don't even look pregnant. And, you know, they meant it as a compliment going, you look fantastic. But telling a pregnant woman she doesn't look pregnant is not a compliment. Don't tell her she's huge. Don't tell her she's tiny. Anything. You know, literally, you are glowing. You look great. That's it. You're glowing. Or like Or
Speaker 2
you don't have to comment on her looks. Exactly. Yeah. That too. You know, like, you don't comment on men's looks. We don't we don't need to say anything about the woman's body. We could just be like we could just be like, how are you? Yeah.
Speaker 3
And the answer will probably be I'm tired. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Good lord. I'm tired of everyone talking about my body.
Speaker 3
You know what? At least nobody thought they could touch me with that one. I don't know if I was, like, had, like, a bit of a, you know, eff off aura about me, but no one thought they could, like, come up to me and put their hands on my belly or anything like that, which was nice. Yeah. And I think it was kind of maybe one of the nicer bits of being in lockdown for, you know, the better part of six months. You know, we'd, I did sort of just stay in my in my bubble more than I probably would have because I'm you know, my my nature is to just sort of be out and socialize and get along get on with life and whatever, and we kinda just had to we were forced to slow down a lot last year, which was kinda nice in hindsight. And, I mean, we'd been working from home since Feb last year. So I had me and my husband both at home full time with our toddler. And, you know, yeah, I was tired. I was chasing after a toddler, but I really just got to slow down and enjoy that.
Speaker 2
It's, like, so funny to hear you talk positively about last year because we did
Speaker 3
we were so pissed. Don't get me wrong. It, like, it it was just ridiculous and horrible and stupid, and I have, you know, we can do a whole another podcast on that.
Speaker 2
But, anyone to construe her being willing to find the gifts as that she was supportive of it.
Speaker 3
No. No. There's zero support. But if I was looking at what was for me
Speaker 2
Totally.
Speaker 3
You know, that that was for me. It was, you know, in what other situation, me and my husband at home full time with our with our toddler. It was, so that was really lovely. So, yeah. Got to, the end of my pregnancy and I put my birth team together. So that was my husband, my sister. I asked my sister to attend my birth, which was so a little bit of my sister and I were like we'd both say chalk and cheese growing up. So that's growing up, you know, we were very different. She made very different choices with her pregnancies, you know, had, you know, obstetric care and, you know, all that stuff, and, you know, kind of woke up very quickly with the rhona narrative.
Speaker 2
Nice.
Speaker 3
And that was like a a turning point for us in our relationship. Like, we are just so like, we're always close. We're sisters. But now it's like literally, like, all our core values align, and she is like my soul sister now as well. Like, it it was just
Speaker 2
it That is so nice to hear because so many relationships and friendships
Speaker 3
got fucked. Oh, yeah. We had that too. You know, we a lot of friends that friends. I don't even can't can't even call them friends.
Speaker 2
But that's so nice. What a what a gift of discovery with your own sister. Wow. Yeah. And my whole family as well.
Speaker 3
Wow. Yeah. And my whole family as well. Like, my mum and my dad, like, they all sort of woke up to it really quickly and, Nice. You know, we all make very different choices in our lives now. They've yeah. It's just, again, like, if I look at what what was here for me with Rayna, like, the way my my family sort of turned their perception on things is just amazing. Such a gift for me. So, yeah, I asked her to to support me at my birth. And, literally, you know, at the eleventh hour, I was I think I was already over forty weeks. I asked my friend, her name is Nicole. She's a birth photographer, if she would support me as well. And I was really hesitant to do that because, you know, I wanted to feel unobserved. And how can you do that with a camera in the room? So she was over just our kids were playing. And I said, look. You know, I really wanna get birth photos, but I don't wanna feel observed. You know? I'm I'm worried about the noise. And she's she's like, look. I will be as unobtrusive as possible, and, you know, if I'm bothering you, tell me to leave. And, you know, there's no like, I'm not gonna be offended or anything, and she was just really, really cool about all of that. So I was like, okay. I I trust this woman, and I trust that she can hold space in the way that, you know, she knows I want her to. So I I also invited her to my birth. So, yeah, that was I would have been, you know, just shy of forty weeks or pretty
Speaker 2
much there. Yeah. I'm curious before you get into the birth story how how it was navigating this prep with your partner and even your sister. What just, like, in your community at large. Was it just all good, obvious, or was it, like, you know, a a real thing your your husband had to, like, wrap his head around? Or what did that all look like?
Speaker 3
No. Jay is amazing. And I guess, you know, I I'd already been doing the birth work, you know, during my pregnancy. So I was, you know, talking birth with him morning, noon, and night. So it wasn't really ever something that I had to discuss with him. He, like, just really one hundred percent trusted my judgment on, you know, what I was gonna do with my body. So it wasn't even a discussion. The one thing that he was, you know, a little concerned about was that it was a lot of space for him to hold on his own. And to be honest, I I agree with that. I think, you know, it's it's a lot for partners and
Speaker 2
And with a toddler.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, so that was the other thing as well. Like, I I hadn't sort of been committed one way or another to what that would look like with Michael. I I would have liked to have him there. But when I went into labor, he saw me have one contraction, and it wasn't even, like, a big one. And he was like, ah, like, just, like, way
Speaker 2
away. Little. Right? How old?
Speaker 3
He wasn't even two. He wasn't even two at times. Really little. So I was like, I don't want to have to parent. So I got my my parents to come and pick him up, Okay. When I was in early labor. But but, yeah, I wanted my sister there as well anyway. So that was that was easy, and that, sort of put Jay's Jay's mind at ease because he's he's a planner. Yeah. Like, that's his like, even by trade, like, he's a very plan y kind of person. He's like, you know, what if you want me to hold your hand, but I need to go and fill up the water in the pool or something? Like, you know, he's like, I can't be in two places at once. Mhmm. So, having Susan there was was, you know, solved both our, our problems.
Speaker 2
And with your cysts, was it like, yeah. Totally. I got it. Or was it like
Speaker 3
No. She was great. And so she had your typical first birth in the hospital, you know, epidural vacuum extraction, you know, all of that, and then had a really unnecessary c section with her second. But I'd, you know, spoken to her at length about her her pregnancy and her birth, and I like, she understood that that didn't need to happen, but she didn't carry any trauma around it. And she had said to me, you know, I'll make very different decisions walking into my next birth. So I was confident that she wasn't gonna bring her baggage into my space, and she could just hold space for me as a sister. And, like, I have to like, I can't tell you how beautiful it was having her at my birth, and it really solidified for me that women supporting women at birth is just how it's meant to be. She was just and my first birth she's ever attended, yeah, other than her own. And she just knew exactly, you know, how to squeeze my hips when I needed it and not touch me when I didn't want to be touched and bring me water and, you know, made up, like, in my my Labor Aid brew that I wanted. And she'd give me little sips in between, like, my contractions. Even though when she asked me if I wanted her to make it, I said no. She's like, no. I'm gonna make it anyway. And it was exactly what I wanted. Like, she was just amazing. Like, I just I can't tell you how perfect her support was. There was not one thing she did in my space that I didn't like.
Speaker 2
Wow. Love it.
Speaker 3
I mean, this new ins exactly what to do.
Speaker 2
Right. And she wasn't obligated to some rules and regulations, and she wasn't bringing a bunch of her shit into it. And it was a true act of love and service and devotion to her family.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 2
I mean, that's as good as it gets.
Speaker 3
Yeah. And I think, like, it was a lot simpler than than people really realize. Like, it's just like you said, it's just, you know, an act of love and devotion for your family. Like, it doesn't need to be complicated. I did actually create a little document for them both, leading into the birth just of, like, here's some things I might like and, you know, if this happened, this is variation of normal and, you know, if this is happening, this is what you can do to support me. Like, yeah. Yeah. Like, just just because, you know, like, I've you know, I was really the authority and I, and I didn't want them to feel like like, oh, shit. What do we do if there was something that wasn't, you know, what they perceived to be normal? So I'd I'd put a little, like, you know, a couple of little dot points of, like, you know, if this happens, maybe do this and, you know, maybe ask me if I want this. So, so they were, you know, they I think they they walked in feeling pretty confident of their their roles in the space. And I I I have to find the wording, but I I said like, you know, I want you to understand that there is no responsibility on you as as a care provider. You know? Like, that you're not responsible for my, you know, for my well-being. You're you're responsible for my, you know like, you're you're you're just helping me with my emotional and and, you know, physical comfort rather than, you know, having to care for me from any sort of medical capacity.
Speaker 2
Or, like, or, like, making decisions.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Exactly. So I I sort of took that pressure off them Mhmm. Because it wasn't it wasn't theirs to to hold from the beginning, really. So, yeah, I went into labor at forty one plus two. And I I could I can't tell you. It was the longest two weeks of my life, the last two weeks.
Speaker 2
I remember.
Speaker 3
And, like, I have this conversation with women all the time where they're like, oh, you know, I haven't got into labor. I should go and eat spicy food and have sex and do this and do that. And I'm like, just relax. Baby will come when they're ready. And, you know, all of that. But, oh my god. It was such a mind game. I was just like, why am I still pregnant? Because I I really thought I'd go into labor on the new moon, which was forty plus three. And then that day came and went, and I was like, like, hello? Did CV, did you not get the memo? Like, you were supposed to be born yesterday. So so that day came and went and, yeah, I started just getting over it because I was, like, I was feeling pretty good physically, but I was just so excited to meet her. So I got to the point where I was like, well, obviously, I'm just gonna be pregnant forever and just, you know, thought I better just get on with my life. So it was Jay's birthday in a couple of days. And I thought, well, you know, we could have this baby whenever, so let's just go out for dinner. Mom's you know, mom will watch Michael, and let's go have a nice dinner. So we went and had, you know, this big seafood dinner. It was delicious. It was great. Came home, went to sleep. And, like, you know when you're kinda sorta, like, half awake, half not? I I woke up and I had, like, a cramp in my stomach and but I was, like, lying on my back. I think I woke up and I was lying on my back and I thought, oh, I'm in a crappy position and the baby, like, you know, when they were so heavy and they just feel yuck. So I just rolled over and the pain subsided and I went back to sleep. And I I must have done that, like, three or four times before I sort of, like, actually woke up and said, hang on a minute. I remember this. These are contractions. I'm in labor. So I that would have been about, you know, maybe midnight. And I, sort of woke Jay up and I'm like, I'm in labor. Go back to sleep. So shit. No big deal. Yeah. So, and I I slipped as well, and I would sort of, like, wake up, you know, have a have a contraction, fall back asleep because that was, you know, really manageable at the time. And I think I did that till maybe, like, three thirty in the morning. And then they became, you know, to the more uncomfortable to the point where I was like, well, no. I can't sleep anymore. So I thought I got up, had a shower, did my hair because, you know, I'm gonna have a birth photographer, so I thought I better wash my hair. I got up and, you know, put some dishes in the dishwasher. And I it was actually I that was a really fun part of my labor because it was, like, you know, they were they were maybe ten minutes apart. And, you know, you you can kind of feel when a contraction's coming up. So I'd stop, and I'd sort of put my elbows on the kitchen bench and just sort of, like, rock there a little bit. And, you know, they they would it would end, and I'd go back to doing doing what I was doing. But it was just the room the house was so still. Like, everyone was asleep, and I was, like, you know, having this this really manageable labor that I wouldn't consider to be painful at all. And it just got sort of, you know, slightly more intense until the sun came up at about, I don't know, like, six thirty, seven o'clock. And then it sort of fizzled out for a for a minute. And I was like, oh, like, I I know this happens, but I, you know, I didn't think it would happen to me. But I was like, okay. Maybe maybe labor stopped. And it went like the my surgeries went to, like, you know, half an hour apart for maybe an hour. And then they started back up again, and it got, you know, more and more intense. And I think maybe at it was nine thirty or so. This is one of the good things about having a birth photographer. The time is stamped on all the back of the photos. So toward the end of my labor, I can, like, totally tell you down to the minute what was happening. But, yeah, at about nine thirty, I, texted my photographer Nicole, and I said, look, you know, it could still be a few hours, but I don't wanna be in my head about when I need to tell you to come. So just in your in the next hour, just make your way here and be done with it. And my sister was already there by that stage. So that was like, okay. My birth team are on their way. That's, like, the only sort of mental checklist I had to do. That's done. I can just get into it now. Oh, and also that was around the time that my dad came to pick up my son because he'd, yeah, he'd not been happy about seeing me have a contraction. So I was like, someone come and get him. So my dad came and he was so cute. He was like, so are are you in labor now? Are you in pain? Is it is it painful? And I was like, dad, get out. Like, just leave. It was just it
Speaker 2
was the most irritating. Dad.
Speaker 3
Like, my dad's gorgeous. Like, he just, he to his credit, like, you know, he's he's someone that really doesn't understand birth at all. And, you know, in his eyes, I think he would have seen what I was doing as, you know, unsafe. But he never questioned my judgment about it. He was like, okay. Well, if this is what you're doing, then okay. Like,
Speaker 2
but you very, like, respectful family that, like, loves and respects you.
Speaker 3
I know. It's crazy, isn't it?
Speaker 2
So nice. It's so refreshing. Congratulations.
Speaker 3
I think most of my family, except for my sister, like, probably my mum as well, she would have been like, oh, you know, like, in in her mind, I think she would have been like, wouldn't it be better to to have a midwife there? But they never said that out loud to me. They never projected any of their fears onto me. Like, none of that. So they came, got Michael, left, and then by ten thirty, my photographer was there as well, and that's when it started to get, you know, more intense. And I was like I was still in my head a bit. Like and this is probably the one thing about being, you know, having having knowledge about birth. I I really struggled to sort of get out of my head a bit. So I was like, oh, I wanna get in the pool, but it's not hard enough yet. Maybe I should wait. Like, just, you know, sort of second guessing myself a lot. So so I ended up calling Martina, and I was like, I want you to hear me have a contraction so you can tell me if you think I should get in the pool or not. So I so I had a contraction, and she was like, maybe fill it halfway. And I was like, okay. Cool. Thanks. So Jay started filling it halfway. I just kept laboring, and he's listening to me labor going, you know what? I'm gonna fill it the whole way, which he did. And as soon as it was ready, I was like, jumped in. So by, yeah, by eleven thirty, I was in there. And I some women don't like the water. I love it. Like, both my births, as soon as I got in that water, I was like, who needs an epidural? Like, just the pain relief was just beautiful. I, yeah, I just I feel so calm, and it really takes the edge off the pain for me. So I labored in there for, by the yeah. It was maybe eleven thirty by the time I got in there. And, yeah, like, maybe for an hour and a half or so before I started feeling pushy. And I remember, like, I I got these contractions, and it happened with Michael's birth as well, where I'd get these double peaked contractions where they'd you'd think it was gonna end there, and then it would be like, no. No. No. Jokes. And it would just go pfft flying, just, like, slam you. And I remember I was, like, holding on to Jay, and I was like, there's no break. It doesn't stop. And, like, in a little corner of my mind, I'm like, I'm in transition. But but I couldn't, like, logically comprehend that at the time. So I was just like, why is this so hard? And then started feeling pushy. So I was like and with Michael's pregnant birth as well, it was the same. As soon as I started feeling pushy, the, like, this is too hard bit just melted away. Like, that's like, I I don't know if it's like that surge of adrenaline that you get or what, but I was like, oh, okay. Cool.
Speaker 2
The light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Like, let's have a baby. Like, it's Finally. It makes it so much easier. Mhmm. So, yeah, I started pushing. I'm pushing. I'm pushing. And, like, I I put my finger inside, and I could, like, just feel the top of her head. And I was like, there's a head. Like, this is great. And continued to push, you know, with my body. So, like, you know how, like, it's not fetal ejection reflex. Like, my but my body is pushing, but I was, like, pushing with it. And I did that for a good half an hour, and her head did not budge. Like, just didn't budge. And this was exactly what was happening with, Michael's birth where but I obviously, I I didn't I hadn't checked myself in that birth and no one had no one had checked me at all. But I'd I'd had these involuntary urges to push, but I had, like, no pressure in my bum. And the midwife this is the one of the things that, like, in hindsight had annoyed me. She was like, don't push. Just try and breathe through it. Ugh. Yeah. Thinking that, I wasn't fully dilated. Mhmm. So I was, like, working against my body with Michael's birth, and it made that transition phase where I was having these horrible double peak contractions last it's probably a good hour and a half. Mhmm. Whereas with Stevie, it was ten minutes, and then started feeling pushy, and I went with it. So this was like the turning point where I could tell her head wasn't descending, but there was no one there to tell me what to do. So I was like, well, what do I think I need to do? And what I thought I needed to do was get out of the pool, which is, like, huge for me because I love the pool. Didn't wanna get out, but I was like, no. You have to get out. So I got out of the pool, and I did a I squatted on the toilet for a little bit. I did, and I I was holding on to the bathroom sink and sort of, like, really doing a really deep squat. I was on all fours on the floor, and just those different movements really helped her to just drop down. Like, I stood back up and, like, she just dropped. And I was like, oh my god. Like, she was just coming out after that. And I was, like, on the edge of the pool, and I could feel her. Like, it felt like she was crowning, and I was like, oh my god. This is so intense. How do people give birth on land? And I literally just, like, dove back into the pool. I wish I had it on video. Like, literally, I would have, like, into the pool. And, she was born less than five minutes later, like, once once I was back in there. And that was, like, you know, that was exactly why I needed to have this birth on my terms without anyone else there because I was like, well, what's my body telling me? And my body was telling me she was just, I don't know, maybe she was like a little off center or something, but no one can see, but I can feel it. So I had to move with my body. And
Speaker 2
Well, and when you have to find your answers, it opens up a whole depth of your own inner knowing that otherwise doesn't have to get opened. Yeah. You know? Which is exactly that point of you, like, you know you would've and there's nothing wrong with doing this, but you know you would've looked up to your midwife friend and been like, what should I do? And there's nothing wrong with that. The only thing is that lots of us are really interested in what would happen if we didn't do that. Right?
Speaker 3
And, also, I really feel like it it it does it can and does hinder the process because, like, I like, again, obviously, you know, it's a it's a first birth compared to a second birth, but I can see and maybe it's a story I'm telling myself, but just, like, I'm deducing from from my birth experience that it actually made my labor with Michael longer because, you know, the advice that I got, I think, you know, did draw out that process a bit. Whereas I think if I had just gone with my body and pushed, I probably woulda had him sooner. You know, I I don't know that for a fact, but just comparing the two experiences, that's what I think. And, you know, also, obviously, you know, midwives, birthkeepers, you know, whoever, they can give you advice based on their experience, but they don't know the answer. You know? They they go, well, this is what I think you could try, but it's it's not necessarily the right thing to do. And I like, with with Michael, my whole labor, I couldn't tell you if he moved. I couldn't tell you what was going on with my body. I just was not in tune with my body because I had that external authority there to rely on to tell me that everything was okay. Whereas, you know, with Stevie's birth, I was so in tune with my body and with her the whole time. Like, I I was so aware of when she was moving and and that she was okay. Like, I never had, you know, a time in my labor where I was like, oh, are you okay in there? Like, you know, she was communicating with me, you know, throughout my labor. You know, little movements, little little kicks going, oh, okay. We're good. We're doing a good job. Keep going. And that was, you know, probably the biggest difference for me was how in tune with my body I was second time around, whereas I just didn't have to be with my first. I kinda outsourced that responsibility. Mhmm.
Speaker 2
And that's kind of that interesting crux of, like like, is it possible to have an attendant and not outsource?
Speaker 3
I don't think so. I think I think you're always you know, even if it is, you know, a doula or or something, I feel like you're you're always outsourcing something. Like, even, you know, just having Susan and Jay there, I was, you know, outsourcing a level of my comfort to them, going like, I don't I don't wanna have to think about water. That's your job. You know, you give me water when in between contractions. Like, you're always outsourcing something to people in the room, but that's fine. Like, we we don't, you know, we don't all need to birth, you know, in one hundred percent isolation on our own. Like That'd be weird. We want support, and that's and that's fine. It's just what you know, how does that support look and what, you know, what what support exactly do you want? So, yeah, I that's I you know, I think we're always outsourcing something, but that's fine.
Speaker 2
But, like, you and I are both radical birth keepers, and so that's, like, a really important conversation. Right? To that, obviously, we a lot about the school is is about that. Like, how do you how do you as the attendant hold that space and nourish a relationship that isn't hierarchical, essentially? And, you know, when you were saying, like, a a midwife or a birthkeeper, like, can't know, it's only their thought, I kinda I don't know. I thought, like, yeah. I guess, ultimately, at the end of the day, it is just their thought. But I often feel a deep sense of knowing when I'm in a birth space. Like like, I just know what to say, what to suggest, what to do, what not to do. And it's obviously possible that that's not correct or whatever. But sometimes there is, like, a real synced up psychic knowing, but I think it is contingent on having established the first principle of nonhierarchical, mother's the authority, you know, all of that. And it really takes the whole room doing that tango really well to get to get to that. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, Martina said this once. She said the way she likes to operate is to guide without leading. And I've really taken that on board as as, you know, how I like to operate in the birth space where I'm, you know, I'm never the authority, and I'm never leading the woman anywhere. But, you know, if she looks for guidance, then then I can, you know, give that. And then but also at the same time, like, I can give my guidance, but she may go, well, no. I don't wanna listen to that. I can keep doing what she's doing and that's fine. Like, you know, I've, you know, if if a mom's laboring in the pool and I think maybe it's, you know, a little bit you know, there was still a little while to go, and she'll look at me going, what should I do? And I'll be like, well, you know, what do you what do you wanna do? What do you think? And in my mind, I'm thinking you probably need to get out of the pool, and she'll be like, I think I should get out of the pool. And I'm like, maybe. Okay. Maybe do that. But, you know, at the same time, if I had said maybe you should get out of the pool, she'll be like, well, no. I don't want to. And I'd be like, cool. Keep doing what you're doing then. So, like, you know, we can we can give our, you know, our advice or our perspective on something. But at the end of the day, if if the mom doesn't wanna listen to that or it doesn't resonate with her, then you just keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. So she was born five minutes later. And, like, the you can see on my Instagram that those pictures of me picking her up out of the water. God, I just like, that moment, I cannot describe it. Like, it was just the most beautiful moment. Like, because I I I knew her, you know, for nearly ten months. Like, I already knew her. So when I picked her up and I was like, you're here. I didn't even I didn't even check to see if she was a girl. I just knew it was Stevie. And I popped her up on my chest and, you know, she gave me these little gurgles and, you know, took a second to come through and whatever. And then it was probably, like, maybe a couple of minutes later where someone was like, do you wanna check and see what it is? And I was like, pssst, of course, it's a girl. They say it's Stevie. And, yeah, we we stayed in the water for, I don't know, maybe ten minutes or so and then hopped over to the bed. And I, I I had a bit of, like there was a bit of a gush of blood when I was, like, in the pool, because the pool was, like, clear except oh, well, she did have meconium in her waters when my water released, but that was never like, it wasn't even an issue for me. Like, I didn't even know she had meconium until I looked back on the photos. But, yeah, the water was, you know, relatively clear and then there was this little gush of blood, and then all of a sudden the pool was red, but it was, like, in the back of my mind, I was like, oh, my placenta. And, yeah, it was probably only, like, maybe fifteen minutes after the birth. I was on the bed and I was feeling, like, a little on edge. And I remember feeling like that in my first birth as well. And I was like, I just wanna get this placenta out. And, honestly, that was probably, like, the the most fun part of my birth where I just sort of got up on my hands and knees and I, like, pushed and I gave my own cord a little bit of traction because I could tell it was already released and just, like, delivered my placenta. And I felt like such a wild woman doing that. Like, I was just, like, it was just really primal for me. And got that placenta and I was like, Birth is over. Like, it just felt so good to to have it done. And then, like, have it done and have it done all myself. Like, didn't need anyone's, you know, help in that in that whole process. It was just, so powerful. And that was the difference between my first birth and my second birth. My first birth I found empowering, you know, my because I felt like the experience sort of gave me power. Whereas the the second time around, like, I took my power. I didn't have anyone there that I could even give it away to if I wanted to. Like, it was just it was me from from start to finish. And it's completely changed the way I, you know, I'm mother. It's it's changed who I am as a wife. Like, I I'm so confident in my own abilities, as a mother. It's just and I I did a post about this the other day where, you know, the like, from from our own birth, you know, all the way up until our pregnancies, they they're sort of slowly chipping away at our intuition and our our ability to, you know, discern what's best for ourselves. Just chipping away, chipping away, chipping away until we, you know, become parents ourselves. And then, you know, we need to look to authority to tell us, like, is our baby okay? Like, look at the pediatrician and the maternal health nurse and all those other people to tell us if we're doing a good job and, you know, is is what we're doing okay?
Speaker 2
And it's even weirder that it's strangers. Yeah. Like, it's not even our own parents and sisters who love us. It's, like, complete strangers.
Speaker 3
Complete strangers that obviously care about your baby more than you do and know what's best for them. Like Hello. And I've never even had and mind you, like, Stevie was, you know, like a normal size, but she was small. She was two weeks I carried her two weeks longer than Michael, and she was a good three hundred grams smaller than him. So for a forty one and a half weeker, she was two point nine five kilos. I'm sure if I was in the system and I'd had a scan somewhere toward the end of my pregnancy, they would've been like, oh, she's a little bit small. Maybe we should induce you or whatever shit they would've told me.
Speaker 2
I'm gonna be so American right now and not know. Tell me the grams again. I'm gonna look it up.
Speaker 3
Two nine fifty.
Speaker 2
Two point wait. What's the?
Speaker 3
Sorry. In grams or in kilos? In kilo. In kilo. Two point nine five.
Speaker 2
Two point nine five kilo two pound. Six point five. Okay. So, I mean, not weird.
Speaker 3
No. No. So she was, like, you know, a a normal
Speaker 2
Six and a half.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Six six and a half pounds. Yep. So, you know, she was a normal size, but compared to Michael, she was a lot smaller, considering I carried her two weeks longer as well. And I had the littlest placenta. Like, it was just so tiny, completely healthy, but it was just a really little placenta. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2
Tiny. Yeah. Just a little
Speaker 3
like this for my little baby.
Speaker 2
Oh my god.
Speaker 3
But, you know, complete healthy placenta, healthy baby, just small. And throughout like, so she's got a she does have a little bit of a lip tie, and the only reason I know that is because we've had a little bit more of a challenge breastfeeding than I did with Michael, so I did check. But, yeah, her latch wasn't great, but, she extracts the milk efficiently. I'm not in any pain. She was gaining weight, albeit slowly. So I was like, well, it's not a problem, so don't create one. So I just kept going with it. But if I had the maternal health nurse there, they'd be going, she's not gaining weight as quickly as she should be. So, yeah, and it was a bit of a mind game for me as well because, I was weighing her in those first few weeks, and I could see she wasn't gaining weight anywhere near as quickly as my son was, but she was gaining. So I had to sit back and go, why am I weighing her? What, you know, what what's this achieving? It's creating a little bit of stress for me. I look at my baby and I go, well, you're healthy. You're vibrant. You're not lethargic. You're thriving. So I just stopped weighing her. I just because there was no point. You know, she's four and a half well, yeah, just over four months old now, and she's, you know, a little chubber. She's got, like, her thighs look like croissants. You know, she's completely healthy. But she's a little baby, and that's just her. You know? It's a different baby. She's just petite. And I'm one hundred percent confident that she's healthy. But if I had, you know, some sort of authority that was checking in on me, they'd be telling me that she was small. If I put her on the percentile somewhere, she's she's probably low.
Speaker 2
And you're comparing to the one other experience you've had, which of course is our nature to compare, and there's only so much information to be right to be derived from that, you know? So, yeah, that's so wise of you to be like, oh, wait. This is actually just more stress than it's worth.
Speaker 3
Yes. It just wasn't it wasn't actually helping me in any way. Mhmm. And, like, I guess I had this probably again, like, a story of, like, you know, how much weight gay babies should gain, you know, in those first few weeks, like, even per day. And, like, there was there was probably a good few weeks there where she was only gaining maybe, like, ten or twelve grams a day. But she was gaining and she was healthy. So I'm like, well, that's obviously your normal. Like, we'll just keep going with it. But, yeah, I think, it's probably a combination of her being just who she is. She's just petite. And also, yeah, that, that lip tie probably did make things a little more challenging from a breastfeeding perspective. But she's a bit bigger now and it's, yeah, it's a lot easier. I did take her to a, a chiropractor in those first few weeks, and they did give her, like, a, you know, really gentle adjustment. And that helped a lot with breastfeeding on the left side because she was having trouble latching on that left side. So I think maybe I don't know if it was maybe that's how she was being born as well. She was a little bit she had a bit of a cookneck, you know, and that did fix that up, pretty quickly. So, yeah. It's been just the most amazing few months. She attended her first birth with me when she was two weeks old because I had a client go, not long after me, and that was that was awesome.
Speaker 2
You felt you felt up for that? Your vagina
Speaker 3
felt up for that? I felt great, honestly. With after Michael's birth, I felt like I'd been hit by a truck for the first couple of days. Like, just my my body ached, you know, like a you know, it's like a I ran a marathon and then lifted some weights afterwards. Like, you know, every muscle in my body was like, oh my god. This was was hard. But with Stevie's birth, I felt so great. And also, like, I, you know, I attended birth. Yeah. But I had a really beautiful, really slow postpartum other than doing, you know, that birth work. My mom and my sister just, are amazing. I had a chest full, like, a deep freezer full of food. I didn't cook a meal for the first six or seven weeks, like, not even breakfast. Jay was making breakfast every morning. We had, you know, more than enough food to get us through the that time. And also my mom and my sister were coming, bringing food. You know, every few days, they'd come and bring me a big batch of chicken soup or whatever. So, you know, I I got to really take it nice and easy those first few weeks. So, yeah, I felt great, and I felt, you know, I felt able to to attend that birth. I had checked in with the mum leading into the birth because I I only started working with her when she was, like, thirty two weeks or something. And I said, look. You know, our our dates are are matching up. It's you know, we're probably gonna have your baby close to mine. I don't know if it'll be before or after. But, you know, are you cool with me bringing my baby? And, you know, if I don't feel up to it, are you cool with somebody else attending in my in my place? And she was like, yep. Cool with all of that. So, you you know, we had a a a really clear agreement moving forward what, you know, what it could look like. But, yeah, she gave birth two weeks after me, and I just had Stevie strapped onto me the whole time, and she just slept throughout the whole labor. She just so other than having a little bit of a sore back by the end of the night because she was, you know, on my front, it was it was easy. It was fine. And she's old enough now that I I leave her at home if I need to go to a birth. Jay's still at home. We're really I don't wanna say lucky because it's, you know, we've tailored our birth our our postpartum to to how we wanted it to be, but he's got time off work. He's take he took six months off, so he can be at home with our son and with our daughter if I need to go to a birth. And, obviously, there's, you know, a, you know, a level of privilege that, you know, that that's there for us to be able to do that, but, also, it's a sacrifice. You know, we are sacrificing a wage, but that's a decision that we made, you know, that works for our family. For your family. Yeah. Totally. So, yeah, it's been it's been pretty easy now that she's big enough to take a bottle, and she she does that fine. And Jay's more than capable of looking after our babies, so I don't have to worry about it when I walk out the door to head toward birth.
Speaker 2
Amazing. Well, you told a good story for six AM, my friend.
Speaker 3
And we do it in time as well. We've got two minutes to go.
Speaker 2
Awesome. I love it. I felt like I was there. I'm so proud of you and your family and your partner and just, you know, these are the stories that are so important to share because this is the world we wanna see, you know, where families just show up and where birth is amazing and postpartum is easeful and the husbands are supportive and present and you know?
Speaker 3
Yeah. It sounds crazy, doesn't it? But I mean, like, it really should be the the basics. Yeah. Like, wish like It should be good. Having a supportive husband, you know, a village to support us in postpartum, like, this is just, like, how it should be. Like, it's not, because you know a lot of people, oh you're so lucky and and I'm like, this is what I want for every woman. You know? And I think it's, you know, it's important to say I think that free birth is is definitely not for everyone. I think, you know, the the majority of women want someone there to to support them in in a non authoritarian capacity. But I think that for me, that was, you know, exactly the experience that I wanted and and needed and it's, really shaped the way I I approach birth with my clients as well. Yeah. Because, like, my perspective on on birth now is that, like, it obviously, you know, I think birth is as safe as life gets. But I think what is what makes it safe is the woman knowing her power and being confident in her abilities and, you know, taking that ownership. And I think I think it's important to say that because, you know, I think if we if we walk into birth feeling unsafe, that's what then makes it unsafe. And my my experience like, my own birth experience sort of solidified that in my mind that, you know, what what keeps birth safe is that we that we trust it. And, like, for my my birth, you know, like, the fact that I trusted myself kept me safe. I should also mention as well, I don't know if I told you this when we had one of our reunion calls, but, I did have a moment. That first time that I felt Stevie's head, I I had a thought. I had the I had a moment where I was like, that's a cord. Like, because you know how their head's so squished? And it was like got the little, like, the little lump on the like, I felt it, and it felt so much like a cord. And I was like, and I think Yolanda had the same thing in one of her births. And I was like, well, what am I going to do about it? And I was like, well, I'm already pushing. Like, I just have to keep pushing a baby out. Like, there's literally nothing I could do. And there wasn't a court. It was completely fine and in hindsight. But, you know, you're not really thinking rationally in the in the throes of labor. But, you know, even even that, like, I feel like my experience, like, overcomplicated things. Like, I I should've just like, it's just birth. Just let it happen. But, you know But you have the mind. Yes. Exactly. So even my own mind is
Speaker 2
a part of this this culture, and this culture is way off.
Speaker 3
Yeah. So off. It's just Well But yeah. No. It's been, yeah, it's been so it's just been the most amazing experience and kind of just, you know, resolidified in my mind that this is, you know, it's it it's not just, like, you know, we say it's just birth, but also it's not just birth. And it is the most transformational thing you it's possible to experience or you know, so far. You know, obviously, when I hit menopause, we'll see if that's, you know, a whole different type of transformation. But yeah. Like, anything. And it's it's, it's sad because we're not only do we not realize the power of it, but I think we also don't realize the harm that all the industrialized birth and all the things that happened to us has you know, the effect it has on our on our mothering and our parenting moving forward and and who we are as people. Like, this is one hundred percent changed who I am as a person.
Speaker 2
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're taking it back, baby. Mhmm.
Speaker 3
That's why we're here.
Speaker 2
I love it. It's been so cool to see your just whole you know, coming into a whole new layer of you, you know, because you were already, when I met you in the school, like super feisty and self, you know, self determined and, you know, wise and all of that. But then to, like, walk through these gates of a whole another layer is just so cool.
Speaker 3
I'm just I'm really comfortable in my own skin and and in my own truth now. I think it's kind of like my transformation as a mother and just knowing, like, knowing my purpose Totally. Rather than feeling like I need to, like, find how I how I fit into the world. Oh, yeah. Beautiful. It makes life a lot easier when you just
Speaker 2
I know.
Speaker 3
Right? Sink into it and just trust that, you know, you're doing what you need to be doing.
Speaker 2
Well, thank you so much. Thank you for your time and your amazing story.
Speaker 3
Thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 2
How can people find you?
Speaker 3
So the, yeah, the easiest way to find me is, on Instagram, and I am the authentic birth keeper with, underscores in between the words, and birth keeper is one word. Awesome. So thank you. Mwah.
Speaker 2
Love you. You too. And that's it for today, my sisters. Check out everything we do, including one on one and group coaching. Learn about our private membership, in person retreats, and more on free birth society dot com. Our online courses are on free birth society courses dot com, including our flagship course, the complete guide to free birth. Don't miss the radical birth keeper school if you're ready to become the authentic midwife that women are searching for. Together we rise and the revolution starts inside each of us. I'll leave you with our free birth society theme song, Wild Woman by Aruba Red.
Speaker 4
I honor you for the wisdom you held, the ancient traditions of plant medicine and womb magic. Magic. I feel the spirit of the ancestors as I place my hands upon my belly. This sacred portal will be honored. Eons upon light beams of survival, withstanding the eradication of our power by design. I will not allow the separation of our young to be forced upon me. My sisters will no longer birth in captivity. The picket line redefined from burning our wild women to paralyzing us and drugging our babes. Strapped down in a clinical white bed, drying up the milk from our breasts, keep your needles. My family will never again be doomed to chase those dragons all your poison. We reject your fear. We choose love. Everything with intention. Death, ascension. I will fly and bring her back to the star.
