Speaker 0
Into the wild, I'm going into the wild, I am. It's been a wild freedom child since I left my roots back home. Into the wild, I'm good. Into the wild, I'm here. It's been a while, freedom child, since I left my roots back home.
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Free Birth Society podcast. This is a radical space for women who are ready to celebrate their autonomous choices in birth, motherhood, and beyond. Together, we'll learn about wild birth through personal narrative, we'll explore the politics of birth, and we'll analyze everything that relates to our lives as women from a feminist perspective. Here's your host, Emilee Saldaya.
Speaker 0
It's been a wild freedom change since I've left my rules back home.
Speaker 2
Women. Wow. What a year it's been. We are closing the year out today with a great episode. But before we hop into it, I just wanted to pop in here and say hi, happy New Year. And if you're feeling lonely these days with all of the craziness, please join us in our private membership. It's an amazing community to seek high vibrational refuge in. We have regular community calls, circles on all sorts of subjects, and we discuss everything that's far too taboo for social media. You are so welcome to join us. You can go to free birth society courses dot com slash membership to apply. Also, we still have spots left in the Blood Mysteries School, which begins early February. And I just wanna say here that this program is the foundational next step to your continued education in how to serve women outside the system. You'll learn how to support women in infertility, with PCOS, endometriosis, progesterone deficiency, and so much more. We must become the holistic alternatives to the medical system for true revolution to take place. I'm really proud of this program, and it is truly the perfect alchemy of combining the science with the sacred of our female blood mysteries. Oh, and we are offering discovery calls for any of you on the fence to talk to the teachers themselves. So just reach out to us at info at free birth society dot com, or you could DM us at free birth society on Instagram, and we'll get you sorted. And we are still enrolling for the Radical Birthkeeper School, which begins in March. You can find out more about both of these programs at free birth society courses dot com. Okay. So we are bringing our year to a close with the wonderful Saima from the UK on the show today. After she left her marriage and her doula ing career at the same time, Saima was ready to make some big changes, and so she did. Now a successful graduate of the first round of the radical birth keeper school, she is living her dream life in Portugal with a thriving coaching practice. Saima shares what her life has shaped into beyond the school as she stepped fully into integrity based birth work and left the system behind.
Speaker 3
Saima. Hello. Lovely. Glad to
Speaker 0
be here.
Speaker 3
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2
Yeah. This is exciting. This is exciting because of lots of reasons, but let's preface this, yeah, this episode with what I just said to you when we were recording, which is that I wanna do an episode that, yeah, really celebrates what you have got going since you graduated from the RBK school. You were a part of our first round, last summer. My god. It feels like there's been twenty seven million lifetimes since then. Okay. Last summer. Wow. It hasn't been that long, a year and a half at the time of this recording. And, yeah, I wanted to have you on to share your personal journey of who you were before the school as a doula. I was remembering when we got got we're about to get on this call that you had emailed me like a you know, you had seen people, like, talking shit about me in the Facebook groups and had been like, could we, like, discuss this? Because you might be a really terrible person. But I'm glad that I won you over, and you took the school, and you are just rocking your business. You're rocking your Instagram. You are coaching. And, yeah, you've just had a really amazing, like, growth curve, I guess you could say. So, yeah, I just wanna talk about all of that. And I know that so many women will relate to who you were, you know, before, and you are an example of, you know, what is possible, not just if you go through the school, like, obviously, plug for the school, but also in the larger context, what is possible when you commit to yourself and discovering your own truth, have a community behind you, and take the freaking leap, which you really did. So, yeah, that's what I wanna talk about.
Speaker 3
Yay. Yeah. I'm so excited to share more. And, yeah, I remember very clearly emailing you being like, some people have told me that, like, free birth society is a cult. So I just wanted to check, like, can can I speak to you and see if you're a cult leader?
Speaker 2
So stupid.
Speaker 3
And, yeah, I'm Doesn't
Speaker 2
doesn't a cult doesn't a cult, like isn't it based on that you can't leave? Isn't that, like, a part of the the, like, fundamental pretense of it? Ugh, god. So I
Speaker 3
think it's did you discover, Saima? Yes. Hilarious, really, now looking back on it and just how, like, these you know, people have really strong beliefs around, like, what they think. And then if you're saying something differently with, like, a lot of making a lot of sense, really, that it it suddenly gets compartmentalized into, like, don't go there. But yeah. I think I just had this feeling, like, I, you know, I can tell you what I was going through at the time when I heard the adverb of for the radical birthkeeper school. And I was I'd been a doula for a few years, and I just come out of a really bad hospital birth. Like, you know, that classic, like, second time mom, she wanted this birth to be different. Like and she had hired me, basically, like, with thirty days to her due date to be like, I'm gonna have a home birth now, and you're gonna be there. And, like, it's all gonna be great. And then, like, in that time that she just got pulled into the exact same story of her first pregnancy, and she went for the induction. It turned into, like, forceps again. Like, it's, like, all of the thing. And I was just, like, it was just, like, a very slow, like, car like, watching the car crash. And, like, it was also in these, like, times where I wasn't really supposed to be in hospital because of the times that we're living in. And I'd managed to negotiate to be there so her partner could be there, and then we'd swap because they were only allowing one birth partner in at a time, which obviously makes no sense because we're both in and out of the room. But I, you know, for the birth, I went home and he he came for the the end, and then she texted me later and sort of told me what happened. And I was like, I just can't do this anymore. Like, why does this keep happening? Like, every birth I go to, it's the same, and it doesn't matter if I'm there or not. Like, it's it's the like, no one is giving birth without intervention. Like, it's I'm like, can can women even give birth without intervention? Like, in my doula training, I was taught that, like, this is birth physiology. But no, like, birth physiology actually doesn't happen.
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 3
And I really I'd only been hostile births. Like, that was my thing. I think in London in general, they're all, like, women thinking, oh, I've you know, the doula's gonna help me have the birth I want in the hospital, so I'll hire her. And then it's where it's the thing where you're, like, you do the two antenatal preparation sessions and you've, you know but you actually just don't tell them the truth. You just, like, tell them what could happen.
Speaker 2
Oh.
Speaker 3
And you you support them. Right? Whatever they want. Even if it's, like, gonna lead to trouble, you just support them, like, in their bad decisions.
Speaker 2
Don't project your stuff onto them. I remember having a client when I was a doula, having a client that was gonna be with a doctor who, regularly raped women with instruments, and I had seen it multiple times. And I remember talking with this other doula about it and being, like, so confused about how to let her know. And the other chick was like, well, I do birthing from within where it's very important you don't project any of your own stuff onto the mother. And so I don't think you should let her know that you've seen negative experiences. And that was a big marker for me, like, looking back. That was right before I called the whole thing off and was like, but if I had a rapist in my friend group, I would definitely tell my homies that we're gonna go on a date with him, why is this any different? Oh, it's actually not. You know? Yeah. Well, I'm glad you figured it out a lot sooner than I did.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I think it just it's for some reason, in the medical system, like, it's just so normalized and we're primed from such a young age that it's okay for to be abused at doctor's appointments, at, you know, nurse appointments and all those things and
Speaker 2
Everywhere though. It's only when Everywhere.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I still hadn't clocked it till I heard the podcast though, and I was like, woah. Yeah. Actually, all of this is abuse, and let's call it what it is. And once it's there, you can't unsee it. And there's no way that I could go to another hospital birth after I realized what it was. And I I was I was actually in quite a a turbulent time in my personal life because I'd actually, the week that I did my doula training, I left my ex my ex husband now. And then I've been in this lengthy the whole time I was being a doula, I was in this sort of, victim mode with my ex husband and not realizing, like, that I was cocreating this problem. And so I had no income now being a doula because I wasn't allowed to attend hospital births because of the situation. And I had a lot of legal expenses, and I was, like, in a quite dire financial position where I was, like, living with my brother. Like, not you know, he wasn't making me pay rent. I was, like, just my savings were disappearing before my eyes, and I was, like, what has happened to my life? And then I had your advert, and I was, like, oh, but I need to do this. Like, this is calling me. And, like, I couldn't explain. Like, I I feel like I hadn't even known what a whole body yes was until I I heard the Radical Birds Keep Keeper School, you know, soundtrack on the the start of the podcast. And every time I hear it now, I still get, like, goosebumps. And it took a lot of work for me to, like, convince myself that I was worth, like, that investment in in myself, especially at this time where finances were very challenging. But I I was like, I just did it. And it's, like, the thing that has really revolutionized my life. Like, we talked I feel like we talked so much about this, like, transformational birth coaching, but I feel like I was, like, transformationally born through this experience and just, like, being surrounded by like minded women, the tools, you know, what I learned about birth. Like, it's, you know, it's a whole different level, isn't it, to your average doula training? Like, I can't even believe they're not even training.
Speaker 2
Yeah. They're not even in the same it's not a doula training. Right? And it I mean, the coaching is, like, first we heal, then we teach. Like, we've gotta do our work first if we're going to be functioning at this high of a level.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Absolutely. And I've been in, like, personal therapy for some time, and I'd been doing, like, a lot of work around, obviously, like, the unhealthy relationships I've formed and that I was, like, deep in victim. And, you know, the drama triangle, which we learned in the school was, like, massive for me. I just realized I was, like, on that the whole time. And it was up to me how I progressed with the rest of my life, really. And I got to take control. I got to shift above the line. Like, all of these things that I'm just like, why doesn't everyone like, I wish everyone understood these tools. And, of course, like, now in my work with pregnant women, I'm just like, I wish, you know, everyone had this. And it's not even about birth or birth physiology. It's just like a way of being
Speaker 2
Totally.
Speaker 3
And my understanding the world. And I think that's also what I didn't realize about the schools. I thought it was just gonna be about birth, but it was actually about, like, life, your own personal work, business, like, all of these things that, again, like, doula training just does not make it does not teach you about setting up a business. And that was actually really beneficial for me was, like, learning things about, like, ideal client and how much money do you actually wanna make in a year. Right? Like, so much of the doula community is in scarcity around, like, how much they can charge and, like, should they be charging? And, like, it's, you know, really a lot of women who it's a hobby, and therefore, they don't charge very much. And then those of us who need to earn, like, can't. And and we're all just, like, caught in this, like, oh, but we shouldn't charge too much and we you know, all of these shoulds and shouldn'ts and, like it was just such, like, an awakening to be like, oh, I've actually been living in scarcity and for my whole life, you know, really up until this point. And I won by saying yes to the school by investing in it. That was already, like, opening up abundance and then taking all these further steps into money mindset and asking questions of how much do I actually wanna earn and how can I actually make earning like, make this my main thing? Right? Because I'd always been, like, sort of doing a part time job or doing this and that and, like, trying to just piece the money together. And now actually to be, like, I'm in charge, and I can actually choose, you know, how I work and what I charge, what I'm worth. It was all you know, all of that stuff was huge for me.
Speaker 2
Totally. And there's something to be said for you know, we very purposely, as we share in the course, you know, made made the price be I mean, I guess it's all relative. Right? Like, midwifery school is, like, twenty to eighty k. So okay. It's nothing like that. It's six thousand dollars. But we purposely priced it, you know, what most people would consider high because then women show up super fucking invested. And that's a game changer. Right? If it's, like, throw away money, then women aren't gonna be, like, committing to their businesses and and really using this and coming to every class. And, you know, that was very intentional, and it's been really, really cool to see you know, not everyone's, like, a hundred percent in, but a lot of women are. And you're a really great example of that, of, like, needing this to work, but not from a victim consciousness, but from, like, a truly inspired like, you are transforming, And then you're going to put your stuff out on a whole new level, which creates a positive feedback loop, you know, with your environment and your freaking living proof of that.
Speaker 3
Absolutely. Yeah. It's been incredible just to to see the growth and how, you know, my investment has gone such a long way. You know, I never expected this like, putting this into myself would now mean that I am able to, like, live live the life that I want. Like, it opens so many doors for me. So now I run my business online. I mainly teach radical birth education. I specialize with women in the UK and first time mothers mainly do one to one coaching. I also work with birth workers in the UK around money mindset and their business, you know, what they need to work on because that's something that's totally missed in the dually dealer trainings in the UK. And I get to I currently live on, like, a tropical island, and I'm about to buy a property here. Like, I was like, in eighteen months. Right? I did the school in June twenty twenty, and eighteen months later, I've, like, at least ten x'd my investment and living, you know, living the dream life that I want.
Speaker 2
Oh my god.
Speaker 3
And I I do like, I put a huge amount of it down to the school. And, of course, like, you you do work, and I've consistently, like, done more work as I go along.
Speaker 2
Of course.
Speaker 3
You know? And but it's been amazing also to work so closely with you and Yolanda in the school and see, like, you're you're doing it. You know? You're you showed us that this is possible, and it is just unreal. That's awesome.
Speaker 2
So I wanna talk a little bit about your Instagram because you are, yeah, like you said, eighteen months out. You have in the last year and a half. What what are you at now? Ten k. Right?
Speaker 3
Yeah. Just over ten k.
Speaker 2
So that's freaking awesome. That's huge. And that's a really big audience that you've built in less than two years. Because what were you before the school?
Speaker 3
Something like a hundred.
Speaker 2
Totally. So tell me about that. What what have you, like like, share with women or just whatever whatever you might wanna share that that that you might wanna offer to anyone else trying to figure this stuff out because you are crushing it. And it's been really, really cool to to watch. Your page is amazing and beautiful and and it didn't exist before the school, that particular page. And so, yeah, tell everyone what it is in case they of course, they're gonna wanna go look at it and just I don't know. I just kinda wanna hear about your, like, journey of growing it.
Speaker 3
Absolutely. Yeah. I so I'm live wild birth free on Instagram, and my website's live wild birth free dot com. And yeah. I you know, it's crazy to think that I had I was it was a doula account when I first started the school. I had maybe a hundred followers. And I, yeah, I had I really had no idea what I was doing with that. I didn't have a vision. I didn't know what I was trying to say. And through the school, I realized what actually I I was trying to say and being very clear about that and not being afraid to actually speak my truth, which we talk you know, one of the tools we learn in the school is this, like, your lane of genius. And I think I've actually realized that speaking my truth is one of my lanes of genius, and I have a background in writing. You know, that was my degree. And now I actually get to use it and share my message, and it resonates. But you have to be really to get the shares and the hits. You have to be a bit controversial with it. You can't be, like, trying to please everyone. It's not the sort of, you know, doula mentality of, like, all birth is equal and, you know All
Speaker 2
birth is natural. You know, those are these actions are natural. Okay.
Speaker 3
And there are still those people that come along, right, in in your feed and say those things, and you're just like, no. Because I'm you know, when I became a doula, I was, like, deep in the evidence based world, and that's what I identified. I I was not spiritual in any way at that point. I was still very materialistic and, like, a little bit committed to the medical system. And the, you know, the science and the evidence is real. But, actually, the evidence shows that undisturbed birth is what's best, and we can't keep denying that. Like, c sections are never gonna be the optimal way for a child to be born. Yes. It has to happen a very small percentage of the time, but it's not
Speaker 2
Well, it never it never has to happen. That wouldn't be a simple way of phrasing it. It never has to happen. It it is an option sometimes.
Speaker 3
It's a yeah. It's an option that women choose sometimes that they might medically require.
Speaker 2
Yeah. But there is no medical requirement. You know? Like, all that stuff's made up. There's no there's no, like, required c section. Right? Like, I'm not and and this is more, like, philosophical, I guess. But I feel like, like, I get I get you know, I, like, get really into how truthful can we speak about this stuff. And Mhmm. There is no time it's required. There's no, like, there's no, like, objective authority that requires anything. Right? There's only choices.
Speaker 3
That's it.
Speaker 2
And there are only choices and only options, but I know we're saying the same thing.
Speaker 3
And there's so much power right in this in the choice that you chose to have the c section rather than it had to happen or Of course. Any of those things. And that's what I sort of when women do come on my Instagram and write in the comments, I had to have a c section. It wasn't my choice. I'm like, it was, and you got to choose it. And that's actually, like, you know, the way it was, like, you know, you had percent of brevia. It was a life or death scenario that, you know, that occasional time that it might have been an option for you. And it's just, yeah, pretty shocking for people, I think, to to just hear the the biological truth of the situation, which is we were designed to be born in a certain way, and that is what is optimal for your health. And, like, you cannot you could just have to say that over and over again. Right? But, like, how is breastfeeding impacted? Like, the fact that we have to keep justifying that natural birth is what is best.
Speaker 2
It's so weird. Like, we literally have to talk this to death to wake people up that they're just designed to be born. Like, this is so bizarre. I hope it never like, I hope no one listening ever, like, forgets how bizarre it is. It's like it's like talking about eating food, you know? It's like talking about breathing clean air. Like, this is the most basic shit that people will still argue and avoid and forget constantly. It's so bizarre. So how okay. So back to Instagram. I wanted to ask you in this, like, truth telling and and, you know, being willing to put your voice out there, being willing to be controversial. How have you dealt with the negative stuff? Because that's pretty much anytime we start around a school, that's pretty much, like, the first thing that a bunch of women reveal when we talk about social media. And, understandably, right, they're like, I'm terrified. I don't want trolls. I don't want threats. I'm terrified. And, you know, I'm probably the queen of of going through all this shit again and again and again or the queen in this world, I mean. Of course, there's people that get it worse. But, anyway so, yeah, I mean, I have my whole thing that I share about in the school, but I wanna hear about it with you because at ten thousand followers doing, you know, birth outside the system work, I'm sure you've had your fair fair share of of trolls.
Speaker 3
Yes. Yeah. It's it comes around every so often, I think. And it's usually I've seen themes that it's, like, the c sections or the formula that, like, seems to get people, like, very defensive Mhmm. About what happened to them. And there is definitely the, like, I'm I'm harmful. I'm, you know, causing people to die. Like, who do I think I am? I'm not medically trained. I haven't given birth myself. Like, how dare I have any opinions about anything? Let alone them be rooted in evidence based research. It's just, like yeah. It's crazy. But at the same time, I it it just, like, come comes off me. I'm just, like, this is not my business and, like, they're committed to their story. And I I come from a part I've got a past in, like, customer service where, you know, those angry people would come in with their thing that isn't working, and they're like, this is I'm gonna kill you if you don't fix this thing for me. Like, very entitled. Mhmm. And I'm like, actually, they're just they're not even angry at you or what you've said or anything. They're just like, there's something going on in their life that they're not happy with. And that's all that it is. And, like, you can't be their therapist at the end of the day, but you can notice actually this this anger and this sadness and all of these things aren't related to you. And sadly, with birth, like, so many people are carrying deep trauma around this that some of them are ready to see, you know, differently and others are just gonna stay where they're at. And that's all we can do, you know. And I do occasionally send some comments back being like, oh, I'm, you know, exploring this a little bit more with you. What actually happened? Are you open to a different viewpoint? You know, can I sort of take you into a birth debrief where we actually look at what happened? And then for others, it's just like, well, they're they're way below the line. They're not willing to shift, and it is what it is. And it's not I'm not gonna lose sleep over that. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not it's they're just not there yet, but who knows if they will be? They might come back. So
Speaker 2
Hurt people hurt people.
Speaker 3
That's it.
Speaker 2
Hurt hurt people troll people.
Speaker 3
Yeah. And it's just too easy online, isn't it? Like, because they you don't you don't know them and they don't know you. And I'm I'm just like, I'm a stranger on the Internet. Do you have to justify your birth decisions to me? Like, I you don't have to comment on this if you disagree with me. It is. Thousand people are interested in what I have to say.
Speaker 2
So Right. Like, don't you literally have other things to do? That's always what I think when people send me these long things or these long hateful emails. I'm like, this must have taken you, like, an hour. That's a lot of time in your day. Okay. So what about using the word woman? Have you gotten any any nonsense for having the audacity?
Speaker 0
Of course.
Speaker 3
Yep. It's, it's just something it's it's a hot topic, isn't it, with particularly in the birth world, and people don't like it that we call women women. But, again, it's the biological truth of the situation. And it definitely came up more at the beginning, but then I think the more that I just used it, then that's what this page is. And and, essentially, I'm appealing. Like, my ideal client is a woman. You know? I'm not appealing to partners or who whoever else. This is my ideal client, and you can't tell me who to market to. So, again, I just I don't have arguments about it. I put it aside. I occasionally have healthy DMs where I'll, you know, consider things and people are like, oh, it's so great to be able to talk to people about these things. I'm like, yeah. I'm I'm open to conversation. I think conversation is important. I'm not one of those who just blocks or deletes comments I disagree with. I do think the sort of relationship is important. And I think because I've chosen to continue to engage with people in various ways, then that's meant that my engagement is quite high across my sort of feed with likes and comments and things rather than it just being like a one way communication.
Speaker 2
Have you have you gotten into any, like, scary terrain yet? Has anything felt scary?
Speaker 3
I think, like, there have been times where people have, like, wished death upon me and just said horrible things. But I I think because I don't have a fixed abode. I'm quite nomadic in the way that I live my life. I'm like, they would struggle to, like, locate me. I think if I had a fixed place and I I guess I am conscious that I don't share my exact location anywhere. If I'm I'll share, like, where I was a couple of days ago rather than where I am right now. And, yeah, I think also because I haven't got had children myself yet, I don't have I it's I'm just looking after myself, but I can understand that as you have a family, then that that could become worse. And I'd I'm not afraid at that point to definitely block and delete people.
Speaker 2
Totally. I mean, plus just as your audience grows, I I mean, my guess is just because this is what was true for me is that you will have less bandwidth to respond or engage with strangers, you know, like, as your own as as everybody's own audience grows and, like, your coaching and everything. You know? It just god. I remember doing that stuff, though.
Speaker 3
It's not it's not possible, is it? You can't maintain it. I've got I've got help. I've had an assistant help me. I've got social media assistant now. Nice. Because I'm not able to to do all of that on my own anymore, and that's part of the growth, isn't it, of your business is accepting that you can't be everything the whole time. And even, you know, even with her, I'm like, we can't spend the whole day messaging people. Like, that's not feasible. No. That's perfect. Ourselves. Yeah. It's like, it is a marketing platform. It's not free coaching. It's not, you know, free anything. This is my my valuable time. And, of course, I'm in there most of the time, but I do have help with it now.
Speaker 2
And I do think that's so I've I've found that the women who hit me up with their, like, sob story in DMs are never gonna be the women who book the sessions. Almost never. You know? So there's a certain type of taker out there who is gonna hit up strangers to to suck whatever free free stuff they can get, and I I almost never convert those into actual clients.
Speaker 3
No. And then there's a whole heap of stuff, right, about it sort of being the entry level, and then you need to put in you know, we talk about in the school, like, ops lead magnets and, like, you then get them on your mailing list, and then you build it up from there. Like, you it's unlikely. You know, it's a percentage or a percentage of those Instagram followers actually buy from you, but they are you know, they give you some sort of credibility. I think there's something now that I've got ten k, I'm like, woah. Like, I've got you know, like, as if it means something.
Speaker 2
But I think it does mean something. I think that people like to act that it doesn't mean anything, but that's not true. Like, that's not why we're all doing it. Like, we all know that an audience size could maybe it's arguable, but could equal impact. Right? And impact has power. Impact has clout. Impact has you know, I don't know the right word, but, like, it does mean it does have value. Let's put it that way. Is it, like, the only thing? Of course not. And I know lots of women with big followings who don't make any money from it, and that's fine. Whatever. It doesn't have to be the only reason, but I think there's no denying that there's, like, impact when thousands and thousands and thousands or tens of thousands or millions or whatever is your thing, like, want to hear what you have to say. But you bring up, you know, the important point of, like, but are you willing to say it? And I would say a lot of women I know, they could be totally brilliant and totally rebellious and totally all these things. But if they're not willing to speak, Instagram is not gonna be the game for them.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I'd I tend to sort of convert people through Instagram, I think. And I I'm not afraid to sell. I think that's an another big part of it. You know, the shame of selling, your service. And I'm act you know, I had to do some work around this myself of being, like, actually, selling is helping someone. Right? Like, isn't you're offering something to them. You're not sell like, it's not the gross, you know, shame of selling, where you're, like, feeling like a sleazy salesman. It's a very different thing when actually they're interested in what you're saying, and you have more to tell them. That's that's just all it is, and you have an exchange of some kind in order to get there. And then, you know, when there's it's so you know, the we talked about the ideal client in the school and really knowing who that person is. They that when they come, they they're like, wow, Saima. This is exactly what I want, and Saima's offering it to me. And then you can essentially charge what you want because you've honed the product. You know, you did the same with the school. You created exactly what we wanted, and we paid for it. And it's the same with your birth clients. And, again, this is something in the doula world, which is just like you're you're the doula for everyone. So everyone just charges a set amount. But when you actually you know, people now will pay pay a premium for me to attend their birth because I've got ten k followers or because they like what I say. Like, I built a whole thing around who I am as a birth worker instead of just being trying to be everything to everyone. And that's there's so much power in that. Like, let's actually commit to what the work that we want to do, and let's provide it to the women that want to see it. And let's be on it. You know? Let's be selling to people in in a way that feels an integrity for us.
Speaker 2
It's the only sustainable way. It's literally the only way that will work. So tell me about your birth work a bit more. And you said you had been to some births, and and I'm also curious if you could speak to yeah. How do you kind of allow yourself to be in this world without having given birth? Because a lot of women ask me that. And, obviously, I would assume most people know I was a birth worker for, yeah, like, almost fifteen years before I had my baby. And, obviously, it didn't stop me, so I had my own opinions on it. But, yeah, that's like a really common question of I've never given birth. Is this really something that women would trust me to teach on or, you know, to attend? And, yeah, I'd like
Speaker 3
to hear what you have to say about that. Yeah. I think there's definitely the imposter syndrome that comes up around that question quite a lot. It's a question that I get from other doulas who haven't had children. And something that really struck me was that there are so many people who are credited in the birth world, you know, doctors, midwives who haven't had children given birth. You know, any male that's basically in the industry is never going to and but for some reason, you know, a male gynecologist or a may not male obstetrician is the authority. But apparently, as a woman, I'm as a woman who has a birth, yeah, I'm not. That, you know, for me, it was like, oh, that's just so obvious. And then Yeah. The fact the I don't think you need to have given birth in order to understand birth and support birth is actually, you know, for me, I've always been so comfortable with birth. As as a young girl, I was obsessed with birth. Like, me and my friends, we'd always play, like, the I was, like, basically the birth keeper, and they were giving birth. And, like, I was, like, four years old, and then I was, like, teaching my two year old brother about where babies come from. And it's always just been, like, fascinating for me that now that I have come to a more spiritual place. I can see that I've done some, you know, past life work in birth, and it it's just part of my identity. And I don't I don't think, like, birth work is just, like, learning the stuff or, you know, giving birth yourself is it's so much more than that. And there are gonna be women that fit, like, feel the call to work with you, whatever your own experiences are. And, also, that I know some amazing birth workers who've chosen never to give birth. And I highly respect them, and I would still happily have them at my birth. So why wouldn't another woman have have me there? So I guess there's been, yeah, a lot of unlearning around this idea that you need to have experienced it yourself. But I do think it will I think my business will change after I've experienced it, and that's part of the
Speaker 2
Well, that's kind of, yeah, that's kind of the thing is it's like it's like, yes, and. Like, of course, any woman is entitled to this work. If she is chosen by her community and she says yes, like, that's all a traditional midwife ever was and is. Typically, traditionally, it was women who had given birth, but it didn't have to be. It just tended to be from my understanding historically. But regardless, you know, a midwife is someone who's chosen and chosen by her community and that and she says yes. And, also, when you birth, everything will change. Both are true. But one's not it's not yeah. It's it's it's not an imposter thing. I would say males in the birth room are imposters. Fuck. Yeah. But any woman is allowed to be in this work because it's ours. We literally own it. It's ours. And this is a terrible comparison. I probably shouldn't say this on a recorded a recorded episode, but I think about it like the flu or something. Well, I don't even know if I believe in the flu, but, like, being sick. Like, being sick. Like, you don't have to have had food poisoning to know how to intuitively take care
Speaker 3
of
Speaker 2
someone who's having food poisoning. It's a terrible comparison. But do you know what I mean? Like, it's so intuitive how to care for somebody, you know, hugging a toilet thinking they're gonna die. And you're like, yeah. It's gonna be okay. Here you go. Here's some electrolyte water. It's gonna be okay. You know? And again, really, really bad comparison. I'm I'm not I there are a couple times where I I do compare birthing to being sick because it is just kind of there are similarities. We can't deny that there are some similarities.
Speaker 3
So this is everything we're trying to unlearn, ma'am.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, when I did not have a child, that was what I thought of. And I remember when I did not have a child, I would be like, oh my god. I'm so much more available. That would be how I would, like, pitch myself. When women would bring it up when I was interviewing with them, I would be like, oh, I have no kid that's gonna get sick. Like, I have no kid that I'm gonna ever prioritize over you. You know? It's a totally different ballgame when you when you have kids. Of course. How could it not be? It's way harder. Duh.
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's definitely one of the selling points of being childless where you just say, yeah. You're my number one priority. And the fact is once I'm a mother, you're always gonna be second. Like, the client is never first. So if you are that client who wants the full attention of your birth keeper, then we're the way to go, really, aren't we?
Speaker 2
I don't know if it's true that my kid is always my number one. I think that my client is still actually my number one client, like, prioritize priority. But I've never dealt with, like, my daughter really needing me. Like, if she, like, broke her arm or if there was some sort of crazy thing, then, of course, she would be. But, like, if everything's fine, which it always has been since I've given birth and gone to birth.
Speaker 3
Everything I think
Speaker 2
it's Yeah.
Speaker 3
It's also very different when you're a doula because the woman has this, like, expectation of you giving up everything to be with her and, like, that you're saving her and, you know, all of that narrative versus the woman that chooses a birth keeper who is taking responsibility for herself, who is usually independent. You know, the actual, like, I don't actually need you there, but I I want you to be there. So I do think that it's very different with my clients now. And I do think that that is much more suited to having multiple commitments and, you know, actually, that is much more in integrity and more sustainable in terms of, like, you can't just keep giving and giving yourself to women. Like, that is the doula narrative. And you just come out and you're so drained and you're like, you need therapy and, like, trauma trauma developing yourself versus this, like, actually, these are my boundaries. This is when we work. Like, you know, this is when there's availability. I you know, actually, I might need to do some self care. This is, you know, just a lot more sort of conversations instead of being, like, literally the servant to the woman. Right? That's what the what a doula is. That's the Greek
Speaker 2
sort of conversation. Yeah. I remember in in a doula training a long time ago, they said, just make sure you're charging enough that it can cover your therapy and your massages that you'll need. I was like, wait. That's a red flag, everybody. Okay. I wanna hear about your personal like, what it was like to go from doula ing in the hospital to then attending births outside the system. Like, tell me about that.
Speaker 3
I think that's how I just knew that, like, this is in, like, my my blood and, like, in my bones was that just that I I was like, this is where I'm supposed to be when I was at a birth that was unassisted, you know, from a medical perspective. It I was just like, this is how birth is supposed to be. Like, count I wasn't I hadn't been led astray. I hadn't been made to believe that we needed any of that. I was still the whole time that I was attending hospital, that's why I was still like, this is wrong. This isn't how it should be. Why is it like this?
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 3
So I didn't have any commitment to needing anyone. I know there's a lot of doulas out there who were like, I don't want to attend birth unassisted by a medical provider and because they don't trust birth. And I don't know if that's because they they've got their own story. They've got their own, you know, history. But for me, it was it was very fluid, and I was like, this is how it's it's just so obvious. Right? When you see it, you're like, the woman is actually in, like, enjoying her birth experience. Yeah. Everyone experiences it differently, but it's not being abused. Like, it's actually her giving birth. It's not actually, like, other people Yeah. Like, giving birth for her. I don't know how to like, in the hospital, it's just like she's never the one doing it. It's other people doing it for her.
Speaker 2
She's like a she's just like a fish on the table. It's and everyone's just, like, gutting her and pulling the baby out. It's so bad. It's so bad. It's just
Speaker 3
like it's not giving birth in the hospital. Like, there's we can't even use those words for what hospital birth is. Like, extraction. That's really what I call hospital birth, and it's just not how it it's just bad for everyone. Everyone involved. Obviously, not people making money from it, but for the It's gotta
Speaker 2
be bad for their soul. It's gotta be bad for their karma.
Speaker 3
Yeah. But they're just you know, I still speak to midwives who are a bit on the fence about this. Mhmm. They sort of want to leave the system, but they're like, can is this still possible? There's still this presentation. There's still this, like, thing that happens with the brain development. Like, do we need altruists? I think we might need ultra I'm like
Speaker 2
Oh, and doctor.
Speaker 3
You know, they're just and it's I think it's so different. I'm so glad because I I initially wanted become a midwife, but I couldn't I'd already got a degree, and I couldn't afford to do the training. But midwives have, like, been conditioned. And I think as doulas, it's much easier for us to move across to birth keeper than it is for a mid like, a midwife has so much more unlearning to do and, like, a bigger commitment to the system. And to be honest, I don't know if you can ever come back from that. I'd I'm very, you know, curious. I'm always more curious to speak to midwives leaving the system. But I do think as a doula, it is easier.
Speaker 2
Well, yeah. I mean, a doula was never, like, never believed, never was under the impression that she was in charge of the woman in a way that a medical midwife is. Yeah. It's way more unlearning for sure. I mean, they literally are taught for years that their how the mother baby stays safe. That's a lot to unlearn and take off your shoulders. But I do think you can come back from it. I definitely know midwives who have put it down and rewired their brain and reconnected to, you know, the original call of birth work. But I do think it takes a lot of work. There's definitely women doing it for sure.
Speaker 3
It's the whole fear of death thing that seems to be the big thing that comes up with a lot of the women that I work with and birth workers as well as this, you know, idea that we can prevent death, you know, at all costs in in the system. And that's why it's there, and that's why it's this amazing thing. And we have to do this sort of big conversation around acceptance of risk and death, and that that is a huge surrender. And, actually, that is part of the transformation into the sort of mother role is that knowing you've given life to this beautiful individual, but that that death could show up anytime and you're never sort of faced with it. And those women who sort of bypass this acceptance around death then aren't prepared for, like, the shock that, woah. I have to now deal with this, like, that my child could get hit by a bus tomorrow because I haven't faced that in the birth process.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And then with birth workers, it's like fear of death and fear that they'll be blamed, which is really just the perfect formula to pit women against each other. It's really brilliant, man. It's
Speaker 3
yeah. Got it down.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Fear of blame also comes up with the the parents. Right? They think, oh, if I'd had a midwife and something happens, then the community won't blame me. But if I've made choices, you know, that's another one that really comes up a lot. More actually, maybe more so than the fear of death.
Speaker 2
Right. That's what I mean. Yeah. The blame. But, like, at what point are you gonna live your damn life? And what kind of story are you trying to give your kid for your whole legacy? Right? Okay. So tell me a little bit more, and then we'll we'll wrap, about what your work looks like now. You have a program or something? Or tell me tell me like, promote yourself. Tell us what you're doing.
Speaker 3
Definitely. Yeah. I so my work is very different now. I mainly work online. I have a group radical birth education program that I teach as integrated coaching and birth education together. I invite partners to come join us because I think that's actually quite a big part of the work. And we meet over eight weeks, and we work through there's a whole prerecorded section, but we also meet live weekly to explore questions and thoughts that are coming up. And we do live coaching on those calls. And I do I run one of once a quarter, and that is my main sort of income stream now. And I've had, you know, quite large groups. I've over the course of the year, I've had about fifty couples come through. And, you know, the the rates of intervention versus your app, like, your mainstream birth education course is crazy. I'm just like how the but, like, standard birth education you get is literally preparation for intervention. It's telling you, like, this is what's gonna happen to you and, you know, such important work around prenatal care and all, you know, actually acknowledging the fears and how how much partner you know, the the partner stuff that comes up, you know, all about the the father trying to hero the mother. And it's it's amazing to witness this sort of transformation over the eight weeks. And we we cover everything to really come out of the other side feeling confident. I don't I don't really teach any, you know, what what happens if in this scenario, it's just coming out being like this. I'm ready for this and I can do this. And I I've had, you know, the occasional woman who has chosen hospital for whatever reason, but still come out come out with the low intervention birth in the hospital, which has been really fascinating because that's not what what the intention of of the program is. But really interesting to see that when a woman is prepared in a certain way, that it seems that actually a hospital becomes a less sort of dangerous place. You know, it's never not not dangerous. But for whatever reason, sometimes, you know, it's what they choose. And then I offer I I have circles online, pregnancy circles. I have a big birth worker group in the UK. So we meet monthly and explore, you know, what it's like to support free birth in the UK. And I think there's, you know, it's gonna be a huge movement towards free birth in in the coming years because we're seeing in the UK that the system is so so broken. You know? Of course, it's broken on purpose, but people are still trying to save it from the inside. And, you know, this is where I came from originally. I was like, oh, let's change the system from the inside. Maybe I'll go into public policy and all of these things when I started out. And I was like, actually, we need we need to acknowledge that this the system is the way that it is for a reason, and we need to actually step out of it and start a new paradigm. It's not possible to to fix that in any way. And we I women are waking up to realizing that this is not the way to do things. So it's amazing to see this, you know, the group sort of growing and women sharing their stories and, like, doulas and midwives just taking another path. And I think all of this crazy stuff that's happening in the world right now is only helping our cause because so many people are waking up. It's amazing. Yeah. So I'm it's been it's just amazing to hear almost every day women coming out of, you know, from my Instagram, from my newsletter, from my courses, from my one to one sessions with their stories. And I'm like, this is so different to the work I used to do as a doula. Like, you know, that you thought that being a doula was, like, really meaningful and that you were, like, making a difference in their lives. But this is a very like, this feels very different. And, actually, I'm I'm almost, like, putting less in and getting more out. So it's much more like this. I you know, I can do this is it. This is this is the work. So
Speaker 2
you already told us, but just tell us again, how can women find you if they wanna work with you and learn from you?
Speaker 3
I'm Saima. I'm, yeah, a radical birth keeper and women's coach. I offer group programs and one to one mentoring, and you can find me on at live wild birth three on Instagram and live wild birth free dot com.
Speaker 2
Awesome. Love it. I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 3
Thank you so much. I'm so appreciative for all of your offerings, and I'm so excited for anyone who is gonna be taking the Radical Birthkeeper School in the next cohort.
Speaker 0
Thank you.
Speaker 2
And that's it for today, my sisters. Check out everything we do, including one on one and group coaching. Learn about our private membership, in person retreats, and more on free birth society dot com. Our online courses are on free birth society courses dot com, including our flagship course, the complete guide to free birth. Don't miss the radical birth keeper school if you're ready to become the authentic midwife that women are searching for. Together, we rise and the revolution starts inside each of us. I'll leave you with our free birth society theme song, Wild Woman by Aruba Red.
Speaker 4
I honor you for the wisdom you held, the ancient traditions of plant medicine and womb magic. I feel the spirit of the ancestors as I place my hands upon my belly. This sacred portal will be honored. Eons upon light beams of survival, withstanding the eradication of our power by design. I will not allow the separation of our young to be forced upon me. My sisters will no longer birth in captivity. The picket line redefined from burning our wild women to paralyzing us and drugging our babes. Strapped down in a clinical white bed, drying up the milk from our breasts, keep your needles. My family will never again be doomed to chase those dragons all your poison. We reject your fear.
