Speaker 0
Into the wild, I'm going into the wild, I am. It's been a wild freedom child, since I left my roots back home. Into the wild I'm good. Into the wild I am. It's been a while, freedom child, since I left my roots back home.
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Free Birth Society podcast. This is a radical space for women who are ready to celebrate their autonomous choices in birth, motherhood, and beyond. Together, we'll learn about wild birth through personal narrative, we'll explore the politics of birth, and we'll analyze everything that relates to our lives as women from a feminist perspective. Here's your host, Emilee Saldaya.
Speaker 0
It's been a wild freedom change since I've left my rules back home.
Speaker 2
Imagine a land where women and girls run wild and free, where we're supported to feel, encouraged to express, and where we experience true collective healing, a place where we can play, laugh, and howl under the moon. Here, you can let your guard down and come back to the essence of wild womanhood. Your nervous system finally able to relax in the total absence of men and the total presence of sisterhood. Women call this the magic place. And as female only spaces continue to dwindle, securing land of my own for women's festivals has been a lifelong dream come to fruition. So I'm thrilled to announce and invite you to the second annual Matriarch Rising Festival that will take place here in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina, June nineteenth through the twenty fourth. This is an exclusive wild woman's summer solstice gathering, a week of dancing, nude sunbathing, communing with the elements, singing, and falling in love with what it means to be alive as a woman. Tickets are officially on sale and they will sell out, so head over to matriarch rising festival dot com for all the details and to get your ticket. Can't wait to see you there. After a sabotaged and disconnected first birth with medical midwives, Madison started her mothering journey feeling depleted. After firing her midwife in her second pregnancy, Madison fully embraced the idea of a normal, peaceful pregnancy and an undisturbed birth. Today, we discuss the normalcy and the wildness of birth, the importance of finding community who really get it, and what it means to put your life and your decisions first.
Speaker 3
So this is exciting for me particularly because you're one of my OG doula friends from many many years ago in Los Angeles and Mhmm. Yeah. I knew you back when we were still
Speaker 4
Little maidens. Little maidens that
Speaker 3
that that thought we could change the system from the inside out, and now today we sit as two radical free birthers. So that's pretty cool.
Speaker 4
It is. Totally. I was remembering today, like, oh, yeah. Where did I meet her? Oh, yeah. A march. A literal march making signs at your home and then marching through Santa Monica
Speaker 0
Hell yeah. Like, peace on earth begins with birth
Speaker 1
or, like, some other I don't
Speaker 4
even know what other slogan. That's cute. And can't remember. That intro. I was like, damn. This girl is radical. Like, I love her, but I'm also kinda scared.
Speaker 3
That's like what's gonna be on my tombstone.
Speaker 0
It was
Speaker 3
like, people liked her, but they were also pretty afraid.
Speaker 1
Fucking scared of her, but she was cool.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Okay. Cool. So we're here to talk about two of your babies. You have two sons. So just take us take us at whatever point you wanna start with your mothering journey and, tell us about how that first pregnancy and and birth goes.
Speaker 4
Yeah. So it was the summer before my husband and I got married, and we went to Thailand as, like, a pre wedding honeymoon because we were gonna be off grid growing weed, for the season. So we're in Thailand, and I think your first episode about conscious conception had, like, just come out. I don't even remember who the guest was, but you were, like, talking to somebody about conscious conception. And I was, like, you know, listening because I knew you, and I was like, oh, this is interesting. And I had a dream that night after listening to that episode about my baby. Like, I just knew that that was my baby, and it was a blonde baby or, like, toddler. And I was like, okay. For some reason, I know that that's my kid, but why is he, like, blonde, the blondest kid? And my husband and I both have dark hair. But I just woke up feeling like, oh, shit. Like, he's coming, but, like, let's just see what happens. I told my fiance at the time. I was like, I had a dream about our baby, and he's blonde, which is really funny, but, like, I think that he's coming sooner than we think, and I'm just putting that out there. He was like, you're you're insane. Like, we're literally in Thailand. Like, we're not getting pregnant here, so don't get any ideas. And we're about to go live off grid in a shack, so that's Sounds like
Speaker 3
a good time to make a baby.
Speaker 4
Right. So he was like, that's not conducive. We just we're, like, brushed it off, but I I just had a different feeling. And I had been a birth worker. I had, like, been interested in this stuff, but it just shifted everything. And I just felt him. And I put it away enough that in my conscious everyday life, I wasn't thinking, okay. Anytime I could be pregnant or maybe in the next couple months. I just went about my life, and we moved up to the mountain, lived off grid, no communication with the outside world, no electricity, plumbing, anything. Just working with my hands in the dirt, in the sun, and waking up with the sun and going to sleep with the sun. Like, it was so, I don't know, recalibrating for my LA city born and raised system. Totally. And then for some reason, I said, you know, I'm just gonna go to this Chinese medicine person that I've, like, heard about in town and just, like, I don't know, have her look at my chart and my cycle and just kinda talk to her and just, like, see where I'm at. I've been vegetarian for, like, like, twelve years, and I feel like maybe that's not the right thing for me anymore. I just wanna, like, be really healthy, like, going into marriage and knowing that we're gonna try to have a baby soon. I went. She looked at my cycle and was like, this is all over the place. Like, have you been on birth control? It had been years since I'd been on it. So I was like, yeah. I don't really know what's going on. And she just encouraged me to, like, tune in. She really didn't tell me anything. She's like, yeah. I'll do a couple acupuncture points, but just tune in and see what you feel. If you feel like you're meaning to eat some animal products, do it. Like, try it. See what happens. And I did. Stopped, like, drinking cold things and, like, eating ice cream every night, and I decided to leave the mountain a month before we got married because I needed like computers to start finishing planning. So I met my husband at our wedding venue. I went back to LA, met him two weeks later at the wedding venue, had our wedding, Driving back to LA by myself and ate an entire pizza and had to pull over on the side of the road because I could not stay awake. And I was like, well, we just had a three day, like, wedding weekend, so I'm exhausted. Whatever. Two days later, I'm like, something is just weird. And I had spotted on our wedding day, and I thought to myself, like, of course, I start my cycle on our wedding day in my white dress, but then nothing came of it. I just was like, I'm just gonna take a test. Like, wouldn't be the first one I've ever taken, but let's just see. And I was pregnant. So I'd gotten pregnant, like, the last day that I was on the mountain. Like, that's when I conceived. And it just was like, of course. Of course he came to me, and this is what was supposed to happen. But it was just the most wild, like, I don't know, retrospective. Like, looking back on it, it made so much sense, and it was such a shock to both of us. And so I was alone for three months of like, the first three months of my pregnancy.
Speaker 3
Oh, that's kinda sad.
Speaker 4
It was. It was sad. It was I felt really sick and tired, and, yeah, I wanted to be with my partner. And we couldn't really, like, connect because he didn't have phone service, so we talked for, like, a couple minutes a day. It just felt very disconnected and and not natural. Like, that's, you know, not typically how people are right after they conceive. So it was an interesting time. And I think I reached out to you, and I was like, what do I like, who do I go to? Who's the midwife? You were already pregnant, and I knew you were free birthing. But I was like, I'm not doing that. So what midwife should I use?
Speaker 3
I love that. I love that many people, like, reach out to I mean, you're different because I knew you, but so many people will be like, I'm not gonna free birth. And so what licensed midwife do you recommend? I'm like, I don't recommend licensed midwives. Yeah. Although, did I recommend the chick you went with?
Speaker 4
You did.
Speaker 3
Unfortunately. And see that I I I'm sorry about that. And that was because I had never been to a birth with her. She just seemed cool, which is
Speaker 4
And true.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Until she wasn't. And she's not anymore.
Speaker 4
Right.
Speaker 3
And like, that's a whole another like tangent around birth work and how people are recommending people, but they've never actually seen them in their work because you don't see people how they midwife unless you, you know, have gotten to birth with them, which is, like, pretty unlikely. It's a real kind of danger zone in referrals in referral land.
Speaker 4
You know what I mean? I think yeah. And it's it's, like, a lot here because there's so much, like, Instagram culture of, like, the birth community. And it's like, oh, yeah. I've seen her. Her Instagram is really cool, and she's got tons of followers. And I really like what she posts about it. It's like, what? Like, that is just so far removed from the actual birth space. So, yeah, I considered a birth center. We went, and even my husband was like, this is a hospital. Like, why are we doing this? No. And so I felt like, wow. Okay. I'm really doing it. I'm doing a home birth. Like, here we go. My first baby a home birth. And I went into, like, the midwife consultation being like, what about this? What about that? Like, really thinking I'm drilling her, and I'm really gonna, like, have this midwife assisted free birth.
Speaker 1
I don't know.
Speaker 4
That's not a thing. It's not a thing. But I was like, so listen. Like, this is what's gonna happen. And she, you know, said all the right words and and believed them. Like, I I think that I think she she said, you know, I'm not the most hands off person you're gonna find. And if you say no to something or you wanna do something different, I'm gonna be here for that. And I was like, alright. That's all I could ask for. And I I did feel, like, a connection with her, like, just as a person, as a woman. So we went with her. I I just, like, jumped right in. I was probably six or eight weeks pregnant. And, you know, I loved the appointments. I couldn't wait for my next one. I was the first of my friends to have a baby. I was twenty three or something, twenty four. So that was really, like, my point of contact for everything Mhmm. Pregnancy. And it's all I wanted to talk about, and it was like, I had dreamed of this forever. So I was stoked. And the pregnancy was super smooth. Like, nothing came up. I found out we were having a boy, and I felt like, wow. Yep. It's him. Like, I knew it, and I knew it was Ziggy. Yeah. I mean, nothing I don't think anything, like, really significant happened during the pregnancy. I really prepared myself as best as I could to sort of leave all the birth worker brain stuff out of it. I don't I don't know what I did, but I was like, I don't wanna come in with, like, people's story. And I was also breach, like, as a fetus. And my mom had a c section. And so that was, like, a big thing for me was, is my baby gonna be breach? And my midwife had been pregnant with twins, and I don't remember if both of them were breach or one of them was breach. So she sort of had a story about that too,
Speaker 0
which
Speaker 4
comes up in the birth. But, you know, I tried to work through that. I tried to work through, like, my fear of transfer, and I really refused to even acknowledge it as an option for me, but I was really encouraged by her to run through that scenario and to meet a doctor who would meet us at the hospital if it was a non emergent transfer. Woah. And so I would a
Speaker 3
non emergent transfer be happening?
Speaker 4
Because I'm exhausted, and that's what's most common. Mhmm. And so that was that was the story, actually, really. Like, that was the big story. Like, listen. It's gonna be so safe and fine, but you might get tired. Yeah. You might just not
Speaker 0
be able to do it.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I don't really wanna entertain that, but I had to. Anyway yeah. And then he wasn't breech. I mean, like, he just wasn't, so that was great. Went into the birth feeling great. And we had a doula, and then we had a birth photographer, who was, like, wanting to get more into birth photography. So she did it for free, and I was like, great. This is wonderful. I've got my team. And, you know, I went back and forth thinking I was in labor, and I wasn't for probably a week. And it was rough, and it was really a mind fuck. And I I already felt the doubt creeping in. Like, I don't even know what's labor and what's not. How am I gonna like, I just was looking so much outside of myself, for validation, for what to do, for coping. Like, I was asking, like, how do I cope with these sensations in my body? Like, I couldn't even figure that out for myself, which I had been doing for my whole life. It was just looking back, I can just yeah. I can just see that so clearly. But I also think I just really wanted a a wise woman to, like, rely on and and to, like, have. And I didn't have that in my mom who had had a c section or my mother-in-law who, like, didn't care about birth. I didn't have any, like, sisters like that, so she was really my go to. Yeah. So the birth was long and hard, and I not once tuned in with my baby in labor. Like, not once did I think, like, let me just, like, see how we're doing together in this. And I remember every time she would use the Doppler or, you know, whatever else, I would say, is he okay? Like, mid contraction, is everything okay? Like, there was just such a a fear based mindset the whole time. Yeah. And then I actually did a podcast after I had him and told my birth story, and so I listened to that a couple days ago to, like, remember all the things. And something that really struck me was I said in that podcast, yeah, there was a point where she wanted to check me, check my cervix, during a contraction, and I was, like, writhing and saying, no. No. No. No. Like, you cannot do that. And in the podcast, I just laughed it off saying, yeah. She kept asking until I finally was just like, okay. Fine. And I just like, it did not even occur to me that that was so fucked up. Like, why did you need to check me during a contraction? Like, what does that tell you? So, you know, very typical stuff. And then, yeah, the big turning point in that birth was, like I said, we had these stories, both of us, about breech babies. And I was under the impression since midwives are not allowed to deliver breech babies in California at home License under the right. I was under the impression that if, like, the baby started crowning or if something came out and it wasn't ahead, that we would have to transfer. Like, that's what I thought that meant. Like, that a midwife literally could a licensed midwife could not be there for that. Like, they would have to get out of the house or you would have to get out of the house. So at one point, she checks me and says, I'm just not sure if this is his head. Like, I don't just something, like, feels. And I was like, what? Like, what are you suggesting? She didn't say the word reach, but I was like, okay. So should we just go now then? Because I'm not trying to start pushing and then realize that he like, it just fucked with me so hard. And I I gave up. I was like, yeah. Okay. Let's just go now because, like, this sucks. And she was like, yeah. You know, it really feels like you're maybe, suffering. Like, there's, like, a line. I feel like they all have that line.
Speaker 3
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 0
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4
There's pain and then there's suffering. Yeah.
Speaker 3
And we you don't need to suffer. Yes.
Speaker 4
I think that'll
Speaker 3
wait for you. Plus, I really wanna go home.
Speaker 4
Oh, and it took so long. She literally had already slept on our couch. Like and I, you know, was the one who brought it up. I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I just don't know if I can do this. And if he's gonna be breech.
Speaker 3
You brought it up because she kept fingering you and then saying shit Yeah. That on some level, she had awareness that you were heady about breach. Like, why would you finger a woman and then say, oh, it might not be a head. Like, how how does that exalt a woman in her power?
Speaker 4
Right. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 0
It's got a lot
Speaker 4
of respect. Mhmm. And my husband, the whole birth, had been there. Like, we had a bed in our in our what was gonna be our baby's room, like, a full bed. And so we were both on the bed, but he was sorta just, like, sleeping. It was the middle of the night. He was tired. There were all these women there for me, so he was just, like, taking a back seat. And I remember at that point, he kind of, like, perked up and was like, this is not what you wanted. Like, no. No. No. What are you talking about? Like, we do not wanna do that. You do not wanna do that. And that's when he sort of he was like, can everyone leave the room? Like, I need a minute with her. Like, we haven't really connected here. Let's get back on track. And I was like, I don't know. I just, like, can't. And he was like, listen. You haven't eaten. You haven't drank. You haven't slept. I'm making you a smoothie. We're changing the energy. You've been in this room the entire time. Like, let's go out into the sunlight. Let's let's figure this out. And, you know, I'm not gonna, like, give him credit for my birth, but that, like, moment of partnership really, like it changed everything. Like, it changed everything.
Speaker 3
And I'm completely floored that you had a doula and a midwife who didn't do that for you. Yeah.
Speaker 4
Like, thank god your partner had it. When I right. Right. And I hadn't, like we hadn't, you know, run through that. I like I had said, I'm sure. Like, oh, maybe during transition, I might say I can't do it, and here's what to say. But I hadn't really run through that.
Speaker 3
Wow.
Speaker 4
And I remember what they said. Like, the midwife and or the doula were like, well, okay. Like, let's talk about if you really wanna transfer, like, this is what it'll look like. And if you're, like, aiming for pain relief, that probably won't happen for, like, one to two hours from now after our car like, they did say they weren't just like, oh, it's easy. Let's just go, and it'll be easy. But it wasn't they weren't, you know, no. You can do this. We're staying here. Everything's good. We got this. Yeah. And we we, like, changed rooms. My doula, like, sifted my belly, and and there was just, like, so much clarity. And then I think the next time she checked me, I was, like, I don't know, nine or something. And I was starting to feel pushy, and everything was moving along.
Speaker 3
Oh, god.
Speaker 4
I got in the pool, pushed for maybe thirty minutes, came right out, was like, oh my god. I'm so relieved. I'm so tired. The photos are, like, beautiful, and I look not, like, vibrant in any way. Like, so tired, and, I was just so exhausted. And then my placenta came out very quickly, like, probably five, ten minutes after he was born, and I was encouraged to get out of the tub. The fungal massage was so aggressive and intense, and and I hated it. It was so, so rough. The assistant that she brought was, somebody that I had met, and I requested this woman because I was like, she's sort of, like, grandmotherly. And I had met her. I didn't want a random person. So she came, and she was great. And she was much more like, she's fine. Like, everything's cool. You know? Like, she's she's got it. But she also was encouraging the final massage, like, aggressively, and I was writhing in pain, like, so uncomfortable. And while they're doing that, a huge amount of blood gushes out of me. And my husband saw it, and I could see on his face that it was alarming to him. And I was like, you know, I'm not going to be alarmed yet. I feel fine. I'm laying here with my baby nursing and whatever. But then there was sort of talk about, that was a lot of blood, and I kind of want to give you pit. And at first, I was like, I don't want that. You talked about that. I really don't want that. I feel okay. I'm not gonna, like, try to get up and run anytime soon. I'm just gonna chill here, and, like, I'm good. But I don't know. I don't even remember what happened. It happened. Like, I got the pit in my leg, and Oh. The bleeding stopped. And, you know, everyone cleaned up, and they did the newborn exam and blah blah blah. I don't even know. Six weeks afterwards, I couldn't even stand long enough to, like, brush my teeth without being heart racey and, like, lightheaded. And and I was saying this to my midwife, And it was like, oh, well, yeah, you lost a a lot of blood. Like, you gotta make sure you eat your beef and blah blah blah. And I don't know. I mean, I guess I'll never know, you know, what that was about, but I definitely did not feel like, wow. I feel so happy.
Speaker 3
It's not that complicated. If you felt fine, it doesn't matter that you lost a lot of blood. A lot is completely subjective. So everybody loses blood after birth. Birth is bloody, postpartum is bloody. That's not an issue. Right? And when you're saying, you know, cognitively, cohesively, whatever to the midwife, I feel fine. Mhmm. I'm good. I don't want the shot. And then she injects you with harmful pharmaceuticals anyway, and then you let her know that you don't really feel so good. She fucking gaslights you and says it's because of your blood loss that you were coping well with. I cannot.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. I've always wonder I I mean, I didn't even know that, like, fundal massage was an option until, I don't know, a couple months after that. And it was a pretty, like, mainstream midwife I followed on Instagram, and she was like, I don't do that in my practice.
Speaker 0
And I
Speaker 4
was like, what?
Speaker 3
You didn't know that it was an option to not do it. Not be abused.
Speaker 0
Yeah.
Speaker 3
I mean, can we not call it funnel massage, first of all?
Speaker 4
Right. Massage. Sorry. Funnel massage is, like,
Speaker 3
really, like, like, it it it creates this really different image of what it is, and everyone who's been at the receiving end or who's ever seen it happen knows that it is a form of torture
Speaker 4
Straight up. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3
And so for you to be tortured postpartum and then injected with pharmaceuticals that you did not consent to, and then you're wondering why you don't feel so fucking good and why your heart races and you have some anxiety or panic. I mean, you don't even have to wonder. The answer's right there. The the layers of why it's complicated is that you were gaslit from the moment it happened. Right? So that makes us question our own sanity and our own reality. And secondly, everyone around you had the same abuse. And so it does leave this like, well, it kind of feels like it was from that but maybe it wasn't because everyone around me is saying that it it you know what I mean? Like, give yourself a little more clarity
Speaker 4
than that. Yeah. That's true. And, yeah, I think because I didn't see it, and it was very like, oh, we'll just, like, change this pad. Like, I had no clue. Like, there was just no connection between what was happening in my body, and I didn't really have a minute to be like, okay. Do I feel like I'm gonna pass out? Do I feel like I can't hold my baby? You know? Like, all of those things
Speaker 3
right away,
Speaker 4
which I never
Speaker 3
understand. I
Speaker 4
mean Like, I went from floating to standing up, climbing over a very tall wall, and then getting back down to a bed. Like, the bed the mattress is on the floor, so it was, like, an aggressive move. Yeah. And they all freaking do it. Have a baby. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Well, and it's for them. And then they're gonna say they wanna monitor that.
Speaker 4
The blood. Yeah. Yeah. And when I look at the photos, I can see the pool is is red. But, you know, like you say yeah. When you have any amount of blood in a body of water, it's gonna fill the tub with red. And so I wonder if, like you know, whatever. I just you can wonder forever. Like, did she see that and she got concerned? Like, who knows?
Speaker 3
It's really not it's really not it's not a mysterious open ended thing. In medical midwifery, you practice and you agree to practice when you seek licensure, which this woman did, you agree to practice active management. Part of active management of the third stage is to get her out of the water, to get the placenta out, and to and to, inject her with pit.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Speaker 3
So you had exactly what she was always going to do to you. You just didn't know that.
Speaker 4
Yeah. And it just was it was a lie, I guess, in my prenatal care that that maybe wasn't gonna happen. You know? That that would be reserved for a must do basis.
Speaker 3
Right. All the while, she has literally agreed to her licensing board to perform this and then tells you as as she accepts your five thousand dollars or six thousand dollars tells you that she's gonna reserve it, you know, under absolute necessary. I mean, there's so much lying in medical midwifery. It's so upsetting. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's arguably more betrayal than the doctor. You know?
Speaker 4
Yeah. Because they put on a a fake the whole thing about how it's different.
Speaker 3
Well, Anne, like, I don't know. If I if I'm gonna be tortured and abused and lied to, I would rather it happen not in my home. Like, I don't like, if I if I had to choose. Mhmm. I don't want that shit brought into my home where I then have to
Speaker 4
go to the apartment.
Speaker 3
Yeah. In my baby's room. Exactly. Oh, I'm so sorry. That's so upsetting. It makes me so fucking angry.
Speaker 4
You know? It's hard. Like, as you can tell, it's hard for me to even name it still. Like, three years later, I'm still like, she didn't mean to. You know? Like, there's that part of you that that wants to just believe that women are looking out for other women, and and that's what's, like, a bebop all, but it's not real. So, yeah, it sucked. It sucked to start my mothering journey feeling so depleted, like, so depleted. And, you know, it's demanding. Like, everything was very normal and healthy and great with him and with me after that, but nursing a baby twenty four seven when you feel like a shell of a human being is just, like, insane. And, yeah, it was rough. It was rough. Wow. Yeah. So I think, you know, we made it through. I pathologized any and everything that came up postpartum, which wasn't really much, but just, like, my milk supply and my nipple shape. Oh, that was one other thing, like, immediate postpartum. I told her right after I had him and in prenatal care, I don't wanna know if you think he has a tongue tie or a lip tie or any of that stuff. I really would prefer you don't tell me until I or unless I ask. I just don't want that in my head. I wanna go about our breastfeeding and just see what happens. And immediately during the newborn exam, just, like, sticking her finger in his mouth and was like, yeah. It's this, that, and I'm like, I literally just asked you not to tell me that. And when my nipple came out of his mouth, she's like, yeah. I see how it's like a lipstick shape. Like, it just day fucking hour one. You're just, like, pounded with all this shit about how it's not right and it's not gonna work out. And I think I started to critique it when I had my doula come over, like, three weeks postpartum, and she told me that the midwife had said to her, I wish I didn't say that thing about his head or his head or not knowing what it was, about the breach thing. And I realized, like, oh, right. Yeah. That was, like, a big thing for me. And it just made me think. Like, okay. So maybe it wasn't because I was still on that high. Like, I had a fucking home birth. Like, I did it. Like, blah. And that just made me think, like, okay. Yeah. There were things that weren't ideal and still got my home birth, still love this woman, still feel bonded to these women who were there for me and all of that. So I don't really think I critiqued it that much for a long time. And I was like, I don't know what I'll do for my next kid. Like, we're not gonna do that for five more years, so who knows where we'll be? Whatever. And then my son was, like, eighteen months old, and I just felt this, like, thing. Like, I don't think I want my kids to be five years apart. I don't think I want that anymore. I know that's our plan. We were gonna travel for a year with our son and not, you know, be pregnant or breastfeeding anymore, but I just felt it. And I brought it up to my husband, and he was like, are you ready for that? Because this has been so intense. And, you know, like, you're still breastfeeding. This is so much. But I said, like, let's just, I don't know, see what happens. And we got pregnant the first month we tried. Of course. So then I went back to that woman, and I said, I'm pregnant. You know, I'm considering free birth. I'm gonna be really, like, honest about that. And I would like to talk to you about a lot of things that I would want to be different about this birth if you were there, and I wanna just, like I want you to be really honest with me about how hands off you would be. And I was like, listen. If it's twins, I'm staying home. If it's breech, I'm staying home, you know, any of the things. I don't want a Doppler. I'm not doing ultrasounds. Just all the things. I'm not having pitocin again postpartum. If I'm past forty two weeks, I'm staying home. Like, I said all the things. And she was like, listen. We have this relationship now. I trust you. And, you know, yeah, I'll I'll be there for it. I'll be there for whatever it is, and I'll just be there.
Speaker 0
I don't even know, like, what I'm gonna do.
Speaker 4
We're agreed to.
Speaker 0
It's not a lot of
Speaker 4
what I thought I wanted from her. I was like, I just you know, I wanna, like, walk with someone through this, and I know you. And I don't wanna, like whatever. This was maybe two weeks before COVID, like, hit, so my idea of it was different than it ended up being. So I paid her a deposit and said, okay. Let's do it. And then, like, a week later, she's like she sends out, like, you know, an email to everybody, all her clients, saying, okay. So this is what prenatals will look like now. They'll be virtual like every other one, and then the other ones will be, like, an outside clinic in my backyard. And we'll wear masks, and I'll wear gloves. And I was like,
Speaker 0
oh, what the fuck? What the fuck is a virtual
Speaker 4
like, visit? Like, what does that mean? And I think I did, like, one virtual visit, and I was like, this fucking sucks. And then I went once to her outdoor clinic at her house, had to wear a mask. It was so hot.
Speaker 3
Hard pass.
Speaker 4
Yeah. I brought my own fetoscope because I was like, you're not using a doppler, and she couldn't find the baby. She's like, do you wanna try? Because I was like, I found him the other night. Like, I was like, I already found the heartbeat. Like, I'm so excited. And she's like, why don't you try? Like, it was just so, like, what the fuck am I doing this for? Like, this is so dumb. But I was a thousand dollars in, and, like, I don't know. That felt significant. And, yeah, then I don't know. It just, you know, progressed. And I had feelings about about it, but I was like, this is what it is. We'll see what happens. Maybe I just won't call her. I don't know.
Speaker 3
So how long did you do prenatal care with her?
Speaker 4
I think I they were so sparse because I was freshly pregnant and because of COVID. So I think I did, like, three prenatal visits, two of them virtual. Maybe she came to our house, like, the first time before it was really crazy mask stuff, and I think she did a blood draw. I think that was the extent of it, three or four visits. And then I think there was another email about her wearing a mask to the birth. And my birth was far away, but I was like, if this is how it's gonna be, even then, I'm not okay with that. And I don't really remember what the response was, but then it came time for the anatomy scan at twenty weeks. And I said, you know, I just don't feel the need. I'm not gonna do it this time. Not interested. And she her response was, this is one ultrasound that's really important to me or I feel strongly about. Wow. And I was like, You feel strongly about that.
Speaker 3
I cannot imagine talking to adult women this way. It's really, really mind blowing.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Speaker 3
Like, you know, Madison, would you would you just, like, dye your hair blonde
Speaker 0
for me? I feel strongly bad.
Speaker 3
For me? Please?
Speaker 4
Yeah. Please? Yeah. Yeah. And it was, like, to be, you know, a good candidate for home birth or whatever. And I was just like, and so I kinda went through the motions, and I was like, okay. Maybe I'll go to the woman who did my anatomy scan with Ziggy because at least I know her. And so I reached out to that woman, and she's like, just so you know, in the last couple years, there's been a price increase, and it was, like, three hundred dollars more than I paid. And I was like, I don't even want this. I'm not paying, like, five hundred dollars out of pocket for this. So I said that. I think that's when she said, like, I feel really strongly about this. Like, let's get on a phone call and talk about it, but I feel really strongly about this one. And we talked about it, and I, like, cried saying, like, you know, listen. I feel so strongly about this that if I lose my baby or my baby is born and does not survive, I that's how much I don't wanna do this ultrasound. I am okay with that. I have come to terms with that. I have accepted that. Like, that that is a reality for me.
Speaker 3
Really quick PSA. Ultrasounds do not improve outcomes. No. So that's like an unrelated, you know, thing and also just how totally gross it is that she put you in a position to it was like a competition of who feels more strongly about what you do with your body and she's never telling you the truth, which is about her OB relationships. This was about her license and keeping good standing relationships with her transfer
Speaker 4
backyard clinic, she kinda, like, sat me down and was like, I wanna tell you this in person before I announce it to the world. I've decided to partner with this OB, So I'm still gonna be taking home birth clients like you and people I've worked with before, but less. And I'm gonna be, you know, helping with babies in the hospital. Yeah. I just knew. And I I sat with, like, a couple people and was like, this is what's happening. And my friend Steph, you know her, was like, you gotta you're out. Like, you're already out. Just get out. And I was like, alright. And I told my husband, and he was like, fuck, dude. That's an expensive thousand dollars, but, yeah, whatever. Let's do this.
Speaker 3
You basically invested a thousand dollars to learn what you really wanted, and we sometimes can't know our yes until we know our no. And it's actually an inexpensive thousand because,
Speaker 0
yeah,
Speaker 3
it saves you the five and also it got you clarity. It got you a dream birth. It, like, healed a bunch of stuff in you. Like, what a beautiful investment.
Speaker 4
Yeah. And it was a huge it was huge for me as, like, such a people pleaser to even have that conversation with her. Like, I don't want this anymore. I'm firing you. Goodbye. And this is what I'm doing even though I know you're so strongly against it. How did that go? Yeah. I just emailed her, and I said, you know, you you know I already, felt this way, but this is what we're doing. And she was like, yeah. I I yeah, girl. Like, I've known that you wanted this, and I'm glad you're doing it. And I was like, okay. That was like, I was expecting a harsher response. And then, like, a week later came an email being like, this is me formally, you know, blah blah blah, like, denouncing your choice and, like, separating myself from you. And I was like, that feels gross, but but I was fine.
Speaker 3
I do think it's a good it's a good litmus test of any so claimed midwife to have them share what they think about free birth. It says so fucking much about a woman's internalized misogyny and allegiance to the system and how much she does or does not trust women. And women who don't support free birth don't trust women. It's that fucking simple. And so many midwives don't trust women, and it's really good to know that before you go into a birth.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. It is. So, yeah, I was done with that. I felt great. Like, pregnancy just life went on. Like, it was so normal. And got to be we did the course, and we, like, went through the modules. And whatever we felt, like, might be important to us, we looked at. And my husband, like, got into it and was preaching to his friends about, like, how great it was and what they should do and blah blah blah. And then, probably a week before I had the baby, I we, like, went to dinner, and I came home and had these really intense cramps. Like, it felt more like stomach cramps, but I was like, oh, no. Am I in labor? And I had, like, almost a panic attack thinking like, oh, shit. What have I done? Like, I'm really just here alone in this. And I felt really, like, not prepared and scared. Honestly scared. And I was scared that I was scared going into labor. Like, I yeah. Mhmm. So I, like, you know, talked myself down and fell asleep, and it wasn't labor. And then a week later when it really started, I just knew, and I was like, great. I, like, visited with a friend in the morning. You know? They slowly built, but nothing crazy. And we went to Whole Foods. And I remember just being, like, so overstimulated as soon as we got in there. I was like, oh, no. No. No. Like, I need to get back to my cave right now. I called my mom. I was like, come. It's happening. Ziggy needs somebody to be with. Please come over as soon as you can. That was, like, midafternoon. And I just, like, came home, set up the candles to be lit later, set up the birth pool, like, just, you know, got our space feeling good. And I put Ziggy to bed, and I didn't like, I knew that I was in labor, but I didn't think of it as like, oh, this is the last time that I'm, like, you know, doing any of these bedtime things, just me and him. And I'm sort of glad that I didn't because I know that I would have been, like, so emotional about it. Totally. But I just, like, put him to bed, and everything kinda stopped while I was doing that. Came back out to living room, and everything picked back up, like, bounced on my ball. My mom went to bed in our trailer so she could be there if we needed her to wake up with him. And I think we just went to bed, and we're like, alright. We'll just see what happens. I'm gonna try to sleep. And I probably slept off and on for, like, an hour or two. And then I got up, and I went out to the living room alone. Didn't turn any lights on. Just, like, lit my little electronic candles. And I had, devi prayer devi prayer. Is that how you say it? Just on repeat. I had made, like, a playlist of a couple of, like, mantra songs, but I couldn't handle the switch in songs. Every time it would end, I'd be like,
Speaker 0
oh, no. No. No. Go back. So I just put it on a loop.
Speaker 4
That's cute. And I just sat there. Like, I had pillows, like, propped around me, and I just sat there. And it was so psychedelic, like, so reminiscent of just any, like, psychedelic trip where you're just like, woah. How many hours have passed? I just sat here for so many hours. And it was hard, but it wasn't, like, excruciating. It was just like, okay. I'm just doing the work. And I remember when I first came out to the living room, I I tried to, like, squat down and, like, put my fingers inside myself and, like, see what was happening. And I was like, I don't know what the fuck I'm looking for. Like, what if there's clearly not, like, a head coming out because it's we're not there. So what am I doing? Like, stop trying to get a number that you don't even know how to measure.
Speaker 3
There's there's a like, one of my favorite quotes of Gloria Lamay is you're either at your a woman is always either at ten centimeters or one. So it's like what's the point? Like because if a woman is ten centimeters, it's very obvious. If a baby is about to be born, a baby is either about to be born or just assume she's nowhere close.
Speaker 4
Right. Right. And I knew that, but I just, you know, I was grasping for any, like, measure of
Speaker 0
Of course. What
Speaker 4
was gonna happen and what I was in for. But I quickly was like, I'm not gonna do that anymore. I'm just gonna sit here. And then I think I don't even know how many hours passed. Probably, like, three or four. And I called for my husband to come out and wake up, and I needed some, like, hydration and some snacks and maybe to get in the pool. So he just came and just, like, sat in the chair in the corner and did his own thing. I think he, like, had headphones in, and I just kept doing my thing. And it was so just calm. It like, there was no one to call. There was no time to keep track of.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 4
Nothing. It was just we're just here until the baby comes, and then we'll, you know, do that.
Speaker 3
So nice.
Speaker 4
So we filled the tub. I think my I think Ben woke my mom up to help him, like, hold the hose in the tub, and I was in there for a while. And that's when it started getting harder. Like, I was sort of complaining and feeling like, ugh. This is not fun anymore. It's not psychedelic. It's not anything. I just feel like I'm done. And I kept saying, I just want my water to break. I just want my water to break. And then, like, two seconds later, I threw up, like, so powerfully in my water. I felt it, like, not fully gush, but just, like, break a little bit. And I was like, yes. Okay. Like, I can do this. And I was, like, tuning in with my baby the whole time. I felt him moving and, like, kicking the entire time. I mean, I'm sure Ziggy was moving a bit in labor, and I just there was no, like, no feeling that. And this time, I was just like, oh, you're great in there. You're great. Like, it's so insane how different it was. But, we had a birth photographer coming this time too, and so I called her or texted her and said, I'm I think I'm feeling pushy, so maybe you should head over. We all had the, like, oh, second babies come quickly thing in our heads. That was probably four AM. So she came over. She, like, sat in the corner. Ziggy woke up, you know, at his normal time. He came and saw me, and he said, can I get in? And I was like, yeah. Sure. But I don't think he actually wanted to. So we've still got him a little snack, and him and my mom went in the trailer and just, like, cuddled. He was only, like, two, two and a half at the time. So he was still, like, a little baby. I didn't think of him that way at the time, but now I realize, like, he was such a little baby, and I'm glad that he was sort of with someone and, like, off to the side. But, yeah, that was, like, seven AM, and I got out of the tub because I was so tired, like, just sleepy, that I couldn't really move around comfortably, and I just wasn't comfortable. And so I was sitting on the ball and, like, falling asleep and falling over. So the bird photographer was like, can I make you, like, a little nest in your bed? Like, do you wanna sit down? So she did, and I, like, cozied up in my bed. And Ziggy came and sat with me, and we drank a smoothie together. And those photos are, like, the most treasured. He just was laying with me, and it was so sweet. And I just had a moment of, like, everything was calm. And I was having waves still, but it wasn't super intense. We had that moment to just be like, okay. Like, here we are, and shit's about to change. So get ready. Yeah. And then I think he he went and, like, played outside with my mom, and it just, like, all flowed really naturally, like, him coming in and him leaving. And I didn't really want my mom, like, to be a part of the birth. I was fine with her being there, but with him. Like, it was really clear that she was there for him and not not to be with me. Yeah. So I stayed in bed for a while, and then my husband, like, disappeared. I'm not sure where he went, but my photographer was just literally sitting, like, in the furthest corner, silent. And I would open my eyes here and there and just sort of, like, take it in, but I started screaming, like, getting really high pitched and sort of struggling through every single wave and feeling pushy. And I couldn't feel ahead, and I was getting discouraged. And, again, my husband finally came in and gave me that, like, pep talk of, like, this happened last time. You got to this point, and I'm here to remind you that you got this. We're doing this. You're so close. Like, don't get in your head. You got this. I was like, I'm so fucking mad at you. You don't even know what I'm going through. Like, how dare you tell me that I'm fine? I am not fine. Like, I'm so angry. That's nice. But I feel like that, like, gave me energy to, like, fucking push through.
Speaker 0
Hell, yeah.
Speaker 4
Yeah. So I was laying on my side, and I sort of was, like, pulling my knee up to my chest because I was pushing, but I didn't realize. And no one was suggesting anything, thankfully. So I was just doing my thing, like, whatever my body was doing. And then I reached down, and I felt his head. And I was like, oh my god. He's coming. And I, like, announced it to the room. And then I was like, okay. Do you wanna get back in the tub? It's ready. I was like, yeah. I roll off the bed and stand up, and I just feel his head, like, hit. Like, it's coming out. And I made we have, like, a short clip of the birth. And you can hear this sound, like, the most primal, craziest sound I've ever heard myself make, like, of his head coming out. And I was like, it's his head. Our photographer we had a GoPro, like, on a tripod thing. And so we're like, okay. You take that out to her to the living room where the tub was. So she had started walking out. And I stood up, and I was like, like but it was even crazier than that. Like, it was wild. I can't even do it. And you see the camera just turn around, and she throws it onto the bed. And she sees the baby, like, bawling out. And she's like, shit. Like, do I need to help? So you just hear all of this. And I'm like, and they, like, make another noise, and then you just hear the baby crying. And I couldn't value, like, how I caught him, but obviously, I did. And I just had him. His cord was, like, wrapped so many ways. Standing? I was standing.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 4
So I like, his head was maybe, like, just starting to crown. I stood up. His head fully came out, and then, I mean, the rest of him was just out. Yeah. And I didn't realize at the time, but in the photos, you can see I, like, hold him over my arm, and the bag is around his head, and he's, like, so much fluid is just draining out of him. But I think it, like, fully broke just right when he came out. And it was so just, like, epic. And Ben says, we did it. You did it. And it's just like oh, I could cry. It's just, like, that was it. It was like, yeah. I fucking just did that. Like like, it was nothing. And, I mean, it was, like, such a mess. Like, I remember looking down like, woah. Like, holy shit. This is so wild. And there was, you know, meconium. It was not clear water, and there was so much blood. But I felt great, and I looked great. And he was so vibrant and had one of those cords that's, like, thick and, like, just so healthy looking. And I think I held him sort of, like, in shock for a minute, and then I was like, okay. I wanna sit down. And so I laid down, and he nursed. And, Ziggy came in with my mom to get shoes because they were gonna leave. And Ben said, the baby's here. And so they just ran in and, like, got on the bed, and everybody was just there. And there's these, like, amazing photos of my mom, like, crying, looking over me, like, oh
Speaker 0
my gosh.
Speaker 4
So sweet. Yeah. And we just, like, were in bed as a family, and that was it. And I was like, I'm ready for this to come out. I the cramps were, so intense this time, and I kept feeling something, like, right at my vagina. And I was like, okay. It's coming. Great. It's coming. And it just wasn't. And I was like, okay. I'll squat. I'll I'll get up. But it just wasn't coming. And it ended up taking three hours for it to come out, which is, you know, fine and normal, but I was so ready and so annoyed by it. It was frustrating. It was just super frustrating and having to hold him and, like, try to squat and try to walk to the toilet to get it out. And it ended up just coming out on the toilet. I just coughed and, like, really focused and and pushed a little more than I wish I had to, but I just really needed it out. And with my first, it just I, like, felt it. I was like, oh, I feel crampy, and it just came out. Mhmm. So I was expecting that. But that was the only, like, unpleasant part of it. Like, that after time of waiting for the placenta was was intense.
Speaker 3
Wait. Were you totally fine without anyone vigorously rubbing your fundus?
Speaker 4
Imagine that. And you didn't
Speaker 3
need to be shot up with drugs. Wow.
Speaker 1
Crazy.
Speaker 4
Crazy.
Speaker 3
What did they say? You just you just got lucky.
Speaker 4
I got lucky.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Right?
Speaker 4
This time I got really lucky. I didn't hemorrhage and I didn't do that. It's pure it's pure luck that your body took care of.
Speaker 0
Pure luck.
Speaker 3
I love the the image of your mom over you and, like, the surprise of not knowing that the little one had arrived and just I could just totally picture the room just so full of
Speaker 4
joy and love. It's so beautiful. Yeah. And he was born on ten ten at ten ten AM, which, like, felt really cool. Yeah. And the postpartum, I had, like, arranged for my really good, like, sister friend who's a postpartum doula to come for the first, like, six weeks. And she came the next day. And every time she'd come, she'd be like, you just are, like, beaming. Like, you look like a model. Like, what is going on? You just look so amazing, which was, like, so sweet of her to say and, like, made me feel great. But I really felt, like, normal life. Like, you know, like, you always say it was like it's just life. It's just another day in the life, and this is what it is. Like, birth is just another part of our life and our family. And I feel like the way my son, like, integrated the new baby, like, I was so worried about that. And he would always just be like, oh, where's the baby? If he was in another room, just like, he knew he knew that he was part of the family now, and there wasn't much about it. It was just this is what it is. But I will say that something I've heard other, women who free birth talk about is there's this sort of, like, because it's so normal and just, like, flows into your life so effortlessly, there's this feeling of, like, does anyone, like, know that I just did this, like, amazing thing? Like, I wanted more recognition, I guess, for going against everybody in my life pretty much and what they were telling me would happen. And so I I got that from, like, my doula that came, and and my mom was like, oh my god. Like, you're so amazing. I tell everybody about what you did and Mhmm. Blah blah blah. But, yeah, it was so just normal. Like, just I really felt that, and I had never understood that. When, like, you or a a guest or a podcast would talk about that, I'd be like, how? It's the craziest thing ever. How is it normal? But it really just is if you birth the way you live and, like
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's like it's it's integrated. It's like the idea of a wild pregnancy. You just you're just pregnant. You just don't put any like, you have to do anything or call anyone or get anything different. You're just it's another season of life. It's just not that big of a deal. But because we do this weird thing to pregnancy and motherhood, it is a big deal to take it back into normalcy, you know,
Speaker 4
for sure.
Speaker 3
Yeah. And, I mean, yes, you were looking for acknowledgment around your specific path, and, also, I think most women feel pretty under recognized when they have a child, even if it was in the system. You know, like, this is not an area where humanity really shines in our culture right now. You know? So I think a lot of women will relate to that of, like, hello, anybody? Anybody around?
Speaker 4
Right. And with my first, I had I was the first of my friends, and none of them were in this, like, realm. But he was like, oh my god. This baby. Like, everyone was so into him. And those same friends who were my best, like, sisters totally abandoned me at, like, thirty six weeks pregnant when they tried to share their concern. And I said, like, I'm protecting my space. I don't want that. So, you know, I didn't have that, like, excitement for him too. Like, it just felt very different. But it's totally, like, propelled me into this, like, path of finding the women that that are there for that. So
Speaker 3
It's a lot yeah. Totally. I think there's a lot of grief in the path, you you know, in the, like, awakened radical path. I think that, like, you don't get out of it because it really shows you shows you what's up. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 4
Thanks.
Speaker 3
Love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I have one picture on my Instagram of you just catching ocean, and it's funny
Speaker 4
that you totally picture it. Just like
Speaker 0
Yeah. Just like, what the fuck did that happen? It's so good. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Thank you.
Speaker 2
And that's it for today, my sisters. Check out everything we do, including one on one and group coaching. Learn about our private membership, in person retreats, and more on free birth society dot com. Our online courses are on free birth society courses dot com, including our flagship course, the complete guide to free birth. Don't miss the radical birth keeper school if you're ready to become the authentic midwife that women are searching for. Together we rise and the revolution starts inside each of us. I'll leave you with our free birth society theme song, Wild Woman by Aruba Red.
Speaker 5
I honor you for the wisdom you held, the ancient traditions of plant medicine and womb magic. I feel the spirit of the ancestors as I place my hands upon my belly. This sacred portal will be honored. Eons upon light beams of survival, withstanding the eradication of our power by design. I will not allow the separation of our young to be forced upon me. My sisters will no longer birth in captivity. The picket line we define from burning our wild women to paralyzing us and drugging our babes. Strapped down in a clinical white bed, drying up the milk from our breasts, keep your needles. My family will never again be doomed to chase those dragons all your greater. We reject your fear. We choose love. Everything with intention. Death, ascension. I will fly and bring her back to the star.
