Speaker 0
Into the wild, I'm going into the wild, I am. It's been a wild freedom child, since I left my roots back home. Into the wild I'm good. Into the wild I am. It's been a while, freedom child, since I left my roots back home.
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Free Birth Society podcast. This is a radical space for women who are ready to celebrate their autonomous choices in birth, motherhood, and beyond. Together, we'll learn about wild birth through personal narrative. We'll explore the politics of birth, and we'll analyze everything that relates to our lives as women from a feminist perspective. Here's your host, Emilee Saldaya.
Speaker 0
It's been a wild freedom change since I've left my rules back home.
Speaker 2
Is birth work your calling? Do you long to witness and support the awesome power of women as we make life form kinship and transform the world through undisturbed mother centered birth? In your most expansive vision of your life, are you the authentic midwife
Speaker 3
of your
Speaker 2
community, walking in total grace, reciprocity, and trust with women through the sacred portal of pregnancy and birth? Then our groundbreaking Radical Birthkeeper School is for you. It's an immersive and intensive, fast paced live program in all things authentic midwifery and self mastery that will give you the blueprint and guidance to launch a life altering, world shaking, radical birth brand and business. Think birth business mastermind, life changing coaching intensive, deep dive into all things birth, step by step road map for serving women authentically, and the wise woman initiation that you have been dreaming of, all rolled into one epic program that will change your entire life. It is time to become the lighthouse that guides women home to themselves. Head over to radical birth keeper school dot com and grab your spot because we are enrolling now, and we always sell out. Say yes to your calling and join us in this revolution of bringing birth back home. W w w dot radical birthkeeper school dot com. This week, we have Roxanne, a Radical Birthkeeper School graduate from Belgium who had her first baby via c section after finding out her daughter was breech. Roxanne suffered a horrible life threatening complication from the surgery six days postpartum and decided shortly after that there was no way she would ever go back to the hospital to birth again. Roxanne stayed steadfast to her vision and birthed her second daughter in her own home away from the harms of the hospital.
Speaker 0
Welcome, my friend.
Speaker 4
Thank you.
Speaker 3
I'm excited to have you here. Take us
Speaker 2
to the beginning. Where does your mothering journey begin for you?
Speaker 5
Yeah. I just wanna start by saying that I'm so excited to be here because this this podcast has been a huge part of, well, of my pregnancy and my journey. And, and I remember listening to the episodes when I was pregnant with my second daughter and thinking, like, one day I'll tell my story here, and this is the day. So it's really exciting. Thank you so much. So my story starts in Qatar. We were living in Qatar with, my husband. I met him there. We always knew that we wanted to have kids. He's from a family of six children, and I have two sisters, but we knew we wanted a big family and we wanted to start. So it was in two thousand eighteen, I got pregnant after a few months of of trying. I was really, like, I was in the system. I wasn't questioning much. I was working as an airline pilot, and, I thought that I would do just like my mom who was an airline pilot as well. I would, you know, have my kids and I keep doing whatever I was doing and just, and actually, like, becoming a mother changed my life completely. So I had the whole regular testing and everything, but I decided not to birth in Qatar because there they really, really like c sections. And my due date was around Christmas, so we wanted to be, like, close to family and not stuck in Qatar with no one coming to see us. Fair. So I did my entire, prenatal care, in Belgium. So I was flying every month from Qatar to Belgium, to meet with the with the midwives. I had decided to give birth in a birth center, like a birth house, which is separate from the hospital, which at the time felt already alternative to me. Like, I thought that women who were having home birth with regulated midwives were a bit crazy.
Speaker 4
So,
Speaker 5
the whole pregnancy was was quite uneventful. In the first trimester, I was depressed, and I didn't I didn't dare to tell anyone because I felt ashamed. I was so happy to be pregnant. Why was I feeling these waves of darkness come over me? Why did I want to die? That was really hard. But it it went away after three months. And then, I was just feeling great, so happy to be pregnant. I I kept flying for three months, so that's probably why I was also really tired and why I felt depressed. But I think it's also because I was starting to, like, come out and become a different person, and so a lot of things came up that I was not ready to deal with at the time. And then at the end of my pregnancy, I got a big, big stress thinking that I I had my dates wrong and that I wouldn't be able to fly back home to give birth, in Belgium because I was flying, like, at the last moment, like, I don't know. It's thirty five weeks and some days. And I thought that I'm that I messed up and that I would be stuck there. And I remember that night feeling my baby move so much and, like like, not sleeping at all because she was moving so much. And a few days later, I had an ultrasound to confirm that I was fit to fly. And there, the the the OB said, oh, your baby's breech. I was like, what? Like, my baby had was had had down the whole pregnancy, and suddenly she was breech. That was like, I was so upset and angry at my baby. And I started looking up everything to, yeah, looking up everything to, to turn around. I did like spinning babies stuff. And I went on a ironing board with my head down and I put like all this crazy stupid stuff that you that they tell you to do because your baby is in the wrong position according to them. And then I I well, I flew back to Belgium because I actually my dates were correct. And then then I saw my midwife who was like, you still have time, to because it was not allowed to, birth a breech baby in the birth house. Yeah. So she said, like, oxytocin, just, like, cuddle up with your partner, be, like, you know, relax. And then I went to the to the OB there, which I had never met, which was a horrible woman. Like, I I always say that she was patriarchy in a woman's body, you know. Even worse than some male OB. She said, oh, your baby will never turn. What are you like, so I was, like, I was devastated. And then when I started to talk about gentle c sections because the thing is my baby had her the cord around her neck twice. We could see that on the ultrasound apparently. So the doctor said that she would hang by her cord and that she would die.
Speaker 3
What? They'll just say anything. Yeah. You can't tell sometimes if they're that fucking stupid that they just believe this stuff or if they're actively knowingly lying. You know?
Speaker 5
Like I I think she was convinced. I think she was convinced that it was true. I think she's still convinced
Speaker 4
Oh, no.
Speaker 5
That your baby was, like, would, like, be hanging by the cord if he's born breech
Speaker 4
like that.
Speaker 5
So she said there was no way we could try to turn around or everything, which I didn't want to do. I didn't wanna do the external version. But but until the end, I still believed that she would turn. So I still, like, that's why I stayed with that OB. It it was because I then I could I was I had my plan. My baby would turn at the first contractions. I would drive to the hospital, do an ultrasound, check that she was head down, and then just go and call the midwife and go to the birth center. But that didn't happen because she never turned. I actually I I at the end, I even did an acupuncture session to try to turn her, and, and I fainted. So then I decided that I would stop trying to to to to put her in a position that she did obviously didn't wanna be in. And so, yeah, the end of of the pregnancy, I cried a lot. I was really angry. I really did I I I really, really didn't want that c section. That was the opposite of what I wanted. And everyone was like, why are you so upset? You know? It's just another way to birth and, and at least like your your knee won't be destroyed like that kind of comment where you're like Oh. Yeah. Thank you for that comment. So on the day yeah. The only thing that I managed to negotiate with the horrible OB who laughed when I said that maybe I wanted in the c section to try to push or, you know, to do something a little bit more like a birth, which obviously is is not a birth like a vaginal birth. She said, no. We're not gonna do that. You can't do skin to skin with your baby. It's too cold in the in the operating room. You can't do this. You can't do that. She was just like really, really horrible, and I still stayed with her. And then she wanted to plan the c section because my due date was twenty second of December. So she really didn't want to come for Christmas and stuff. So she really wanted to plan it on the eighteenth. And for that, I stood strong, and I'm so so happy that I did because I had, read Michelle Audon's book about, like, induction and everything and that it's still better to have the baby choose their own birth time, which is obvious. So the contraction started. We went to the hospital. The c section was just just c section. I was not in my body. I was just, like, somewhere there. Yeah. It was yeah. Yeah. The the first time that I met my daughter, my entire body was itching, which didn't tell me was normal with the anesthetic product. So I was like, am I dying? Is this is this something wrong? I couldn't connect with her. She was on me, but everything was just itching. We managed to get out of the hospital as soon as possible. We really we really didn't wanna stay there. Then we were home and it was good. And after six days, my mother who was also a pilot in Qatar came from Qatar to visit us and to to meet our daughter, which we called Cassiopeia, which is like the the stars, the constellation. And, and she my mother cooked. I was on the couch and I had already called the midwife to tell her that something was weird with my scar, like there was a bulging. And she came that day to remove the the sutures. And she's but I was lying down. So she said, no, nothing looks weird. It doesn't look like it's bulging. It looks okay. And I wasn't in pain. So, and then, she left. My mother came. She cooked dinner and she said, okay. Let's eat. And I just stood up from the couch which was like a meter and a half far from the table. And then once I arrived at the table I had this like piercing pain which made me instantly start to cry and I was like woah this is so painful like what's going on? And then I look I remember I looked at my mom and I said, it feels like it's opening, but it's not possible. Right? And then I just I I saw through my I had a, a black skirt. I saw through my skirt that there was blood. So I opened to to see and, like, in front of my eyes, my scar opened, like, really like, you know, a a clothes that you would rip out the the the suturing, like, it open. Boom. And
Speaker 3
It's not really a scar yet at six days.
Speaker 5
Yes. Well, yeah. The the the incision. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and then, my intestine came out, like, from the from the incision and I just went on my knees and I I let out the a scream that we all remembered for months after that. And and then I was there on on all fours, like, petrified. My mom came. She turned me around. I she told me, like, lie down because, obviously, it was gravity was not really helping me in that case. So but I
Speaker 3
I actually saw your intestines come out. Yeah. Oh my god, Roxanne.
Speaker 5
Yeah. It was good because I was wearing, underwear and it kind of contained. I think it like, yeah. After that I was thinking if it happened in the shower, I would have been like Yeah. So so then, well, the whole thing like, we call the ambulance. My mom was was behind me. They came, they took me, and and I was on the on the stretcher thing. They get at that point, they gave me morphine so it was easier to, to handle the pain. And then I remember my husband was there with my my six day six days old baby in in his arms. I said, you go to the next door organic shop. You buy this formula, but like this organic formula, but it's only for this afternoon because I'm breastfeeding her tonight already. Like, I I I it was clear for me that this was not gonna, like, not gonna threaten our breastfeeding relationship. So they they I I had a surgery. They put everything back in. The the crazy thing is that the the surgeon who operated me was a eight months pregnant, surgeon. And she got a c section the next month, and then she was taken care of by the same midwife who took care of me, who and yeah. Like crazy. And yeah. And after that, obviously, we were in in survival mode for a few a few months. I didn't I didn't realize how crazy this whole thing, was. Actually, when my mom came to see me in the hospital after I woke up from the the anesthesia, she was like, okay. So the surgeon said that you're gonna be really tired. So you can either sleep and then we will take care of the baby at home and or you can pump your milk and and breastfeed and we bring we bring her to you and you can breastfeed her. I was like, bring her to me. Like, I want my baby. I I want to breastfeed her. Like and the first night I still thought that it it was kind of funny. Like, I was like, these things only happen to me, you know? My life is always so, like, crazy, like but it usually in a good way, but
Speaker 4
I was like, you know, only this thing can only happen to me.
Speaker 5
But then the next day I was like,
Speaker 4
why did it happen to me?
Speaker 5
Yeah. I was feeling a lot of guilt because I thought that maybe I did too much, but it turns out from the surgeon that apparently, it was not done properly. I mean, that's what she said. That's like it's it's really looks like, you know, if you're you're suing something and you don't do a knot at the end, well, you know, it's gonna open. So
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, all that really happened was that literally the incision just reopened,
Speaker 5
so it
Speaker 3
wasn't closed properly. Yeah. And that was it.
Speaker 5
Yeah.
Speaker 3
Oh my god. That is so dangerous. Yes.
Speaker 5
And probably it was the in inside incision because there are fewer Right. That was done incorrectly, and that's why it was bulging. Mhmm. And then actually with the pressure when we removed the the thing from the outer incision, that's why it opened. Oh. So, yeah. So that was the the beginning of my motherhood journey. But the good thing is that the breastfeeding went really well and I bonded with my baby. Like, I think it's maybe this whole crazy thing helped me bond even more with my baby, like, become even more protective.
Speaker 3
Oh, yeah. But it's like trauma bonding. It's just, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And and it's interesting. Right? Like, thank god they didn't let you have a vaginal breech birth. Right? Like the logic of how I mean, you could have died. Like the logic to put you through surgery and then have a have a not uncommon complication that could have risked your life Yeah. Was on the rationalization that it was too dangerous for you to have a vaginal birth. It's just so nuts.
Speaker 5
Yeah. Ugh.
Speaker 3
Okay. So at what point in your now you are recovering. You've had two surgeries now. And at what point do you start to, like, question what went down? You know? Like, how does that first year leave you?
Speaker 5
I was I I was sure that my my c section was unnecessary. Like, already from, like, I I it was very deep deep down inside me, I knew that this c section was unnecessary. I didn't have the proof yet. Like, so that's why I decided to become a doula at that point. I I was still a pilot. I I I went back to flying after six months. It was really hard. I because, like, becoming a mother completely shifted the energy that I was in. I used to be in a very masculine energy, and so becoming a pilot was natural and easy. But then after having my daughter going back to fly, I was like, what am I doing here? I'm pumping my milk in hotel rooms, and there's someone at home taking care of my like, I it didn't Yeah. It's so disjointed. Yeah. It it didn't feel right anymore, and I was not even interested in what I was doing. Like, before, I used to be interested in the technical stuff. So I I started this online doula training, and, obviously, it was to, like, to cure myself, like, to to, yeah, debrief my my own trauma. And I thought at that point that I would become a doula and that I would save women from what I've what I what I hear. Yeah. Which I think is for a lot of doulas. So I started reading all the books and doing lots of online training and stuff to really understand what happened to me. And then a year later, we were back in Belgium. I quit the flying job. My husband as well, he found a job in Europe. And then I I still thought that I would be a pilot and a doula. I didn't really know how that would work out, but then COVID happened and I realized that I didn't wanna fly anymore. And so I attended my first birth. It was a friend of mine who a friend of mine from Katara who gave birth at my mom's house because her parents were not for a home birth and she lived there. So long story short This is before the school? This is before the school. Okay. This is before the school. And there was, two regulated midwives for that birth and the birth went very well. And it was yeah. What I forgot to mention, I I went to Michel Ladon seminar with my friend actually, the one who was giving birth a few weeks before her birth and and he really, yeah, he really said that. He he was talking about v bucks and and his wife who's like a doula, radical birth keeper, said that women who were giving birth at home unassisted were the clever ones. She said that in front of, like,
Speaker 4
a hundred doulas and obese
Speaker 5
and stuff. So already it started like yeah. Yeah. And then at that birth, everything went well and at the end, the midwife said, oh, it's time for pushing now. And she she like she tried to make my friend push and it really didn't feel right with everything that I had learned and especially Michelle Audon who is the one who coined the term fetal ejection reflex. And I was like, why is does she has have this scorch pushing at home when everything seems fine and and then it it was not it wasn't working? Like, she was trying to push. Obviously, you're not supposed to try to push. Like, it's supposed to happen, and it wasn't working. And it's it started to, like well, eventually, the baby was born at home. Everything was fine, but it was strange.
Speaker 3
Imagine if I came over to your house and I was like, I want you to poop right now. Start pooping. I want you to just start pooping right now on this is this is when I think you should poop right now. Yeah. Like, it would literally be impossible. Yes. So upsetting. It's like they just they can't help themselves.
Speaker 5
No. And and that's that's one of the most, like, open and, like, you I mean I mean, radical, but not radical. Midwife that there is home birth midwife that that there is in our community. So I was really surprised. And then I remember when she left because after that, she came for, obviously, for a few postpartum visits. And I said, so do you even then, I was I I wasn't really, like, understanding the full impact of, like, that kind of intervention. And I said, do you accompany women for VBACS at home? And she was like no, we don't. Only if you've had a vaginal birth in a hospital in in between. Like your VBAC and then the the third birth or whatever. So I was like oh wow, so this means that I count birth at home for a second child with a with a regulated midwife. And then I realized that all all the birth centers in Belgium are the same. You can't have a VBAC in a birth center. Even one which is in the hospital, you can't have it. Like so I was like, oh, but there's no way I'm going to a hospital with everything that I know now. Like there's no way. And I still remember I was in my in my room, on my phone and I still remember, like, I was following you, I was following Freebird Society. Yeah. It it clicked. I I looked at one of your posts and you started talking about the the radical birth keeper school and I was like, this is it. This is the solution. If I want a birth at home, I'm going to have a sleep bird. And then I, a couple of months later, I enrolled into the school and that was like such a big revelation. And, and yeah. And also what I did just before that was maybe you've heard about her. Her name is is Quantic Mama. She's the one who took all of the teachings from and translated them into French and added her touch for the French speaking world. And, and she also has a lot of, of trainings and stuff. And I did one of her seminars and, she talked a lot about feedback and about the fact that she is confident that our uterus is clever as it and is not gonna, like, you know, overwork itself. And because, obviously, the the the talk is always about uterine rupture, and that's the fear that there is. And that's that's a fear that I had to, like, I had to work through, but through the the school and then that seminar with her, like, I started thinking, well, of course, of course, I'm gonna have a free birthday thirsty section.
Speaker 3
The logic there is, like so there's a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny percent of the possibility that in a normal vaginal VBAC that your uterus would rupture, but there's a hundred percent likelihood of surgery Yeah. Which comes with all of those complications or potential complications if you just go in for a repeat c section. You know? Like the
Speaker 5
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3
It just doesn't ever really add up in my brain. Yeah.
Speaker 5
And I I remember what really, stuck with me was on that seminar, she mentioned that, because she used to be a regulated midwife. And in her first years, there was a woman in the hospital that had, uterine rupture, but it was not, a VBAC. It was a first time mother. Oh, right. And they she had, an epidural, and they went full on the oxy on the the the oxytocin, like, the synthetic dose of oxytocin. And this is why her uterus rupture and
Speaker 4
Of course.
Speaker 5
And I remember thinking like, wow. You know? So it's not about this VBAC thing. It's it's just, yeah, what they do. Because we know the percentage of of a uterine rupture in a hospital setting, but we don't like we don't know it for a free birth, for a, like a autonomous birth. So so and I I started feeling like there was a spirit baby that was talking to me at that point that was trying to come, but I wanted I wanted it to be clear with my husband that this is what we were gonna do. So it was, it was summer. We were driving. We always had those hard conversations when when we're driving. And I told him, so we wanna have a second child, but I'm telling you already that this is what's gonna happen. Our baby's gonna be born at home with no no medical assistance. And in the beginning, he was like, no. No. No. No. And I said, if you don't agree, you don't have to be there if you don't want to. I'll have someone there. But if if if it's okay for you, you don't have to be there. But if if it's not okay at all, then we won't have a second job. Like, I I I'm so, and and then he said, okay. You'll educate me on this. You'll, you'll you'll give me the the books and the tools, and I'll I'll I'll be ready for it. And so we went on this conscious conception, journey which was really amazing. And, I did a vision board of like images and I had my little altar and, and we we ate a lot of good foods. We had liver and like lots of nutrient rich foods. And I remember on that little vision board, I put, I love flowers and I put a photo of a narcissist, like the yellow flower that comes in, in spring because I love them and I plant them in my garden. And then when we started trying, it wasn't coming. And I I thought that because I was on this conception journey and I knew my cycle better and everything now, it would come like this. Totally.
Speaker 4
So I was really
Speaker 5
so confident that this time it would would be so easy, but it didn't and it took a few months and that was again part of the journey. And then when I finally realized that I I was probably pregnant and I checked, like, I knew exactly when we, when the baby was conceived and I checked that my due date would be spring. I was like, well, I manifested that on my vision board.
Speaker 4
I mean, it couldn't have been different. This is how it was supposed to be.
Speaker 5
So so I I I didn't do a pregnancy test because after the complete day to free birth, I was like, oh, that's a good idea. Let's try that because I'm normally I'm super curious for my first daughter. I took lots of pregnancy success way early. It would have were negative because it was too early. So I was like, okay. Let's see if I can do this. Let's see if I can trust the process completely and not not do it. And I did it. Yes. Respect. And it was amazing. Yeah. Well, and I obviously no judgment to anyone who does a pregnancy test. It's not invasive. It's not but it's just, I wanted to see if, I I it was like the first part of of the journey for me. And the first trimester was absolute bliss. I don't have any morning sickness or any like, horrible symptoms. So I'm I'm really lucky. And yeah, it was absolute bliss. I felt so happy. There was no, like, medical interference, nothing. It was the end of, of summer, beginning of fall, and I attended a first birth as a radical birth keeper there, which was good, but then the end ended up with a transfer to the hospital for the placenta. So there was already something to but it didn't scare me. Like, it I didn't feel like this would be something that would apply to me. And then the second trimester was really, really hard because I attended a birth as a birthkeeper where the baby died. And I had a call with you about this. And, it it was a a VBAC two, like, after two c sections. And, yeah, I felt so much guilt and so much, like, everything. And, yeah, that was that was a really dark, dark, dark time for me. I felt like I, you know, I I shut the connection with my baby at that point. I was like, I want to protect you from this. So I'm just, like, shutting down this whole thing because it's it's too hard. I I got really scared as well of the the legal repercussions of this because at one point the police took over the case and and there was proof that I was there. But the the parents are amazing and they, like, they knew from the beginning that this was a possibility. So obviously there there was nothing, after that.
Speaker 3
You also didn't you also didn't do anything illegal, and the waspow didn't have anything to do with the baby dying. Yeah. Right? Like, both of those things are true even though
Speaker 5
it's something. Yeah. But there's such a witch hunt, you know, so that there was the fear that and and then I started thinking, like, what if I go to jail? What like, you know, you you had these stories in your mind of the worst case scenario and everything. But I remember coming back from that birth completely, like, devastated. My husband asked me one of the first question that he asked was, like, is this changing your plans or plans? And I was like, no. It's not. Because I mean, it's not because it happened to that baby that it's gonna happen to our baby. I knew that I knew from from that point that it would I was still going in that direction, but it started a fear. I I it I really made me, think about death. I already thought about death before because when you're on this journey, you know you know that you're not gonna be able to help to hold someone else responsible if your baby dies, like, while while you're giving birth at home and assisted. Well, it's you know that it's a possibility and that there's no one else that's, to blame for it. But I started fearing the the whole thing around that. Like, I knew that if if our baby died, it was what we had decided. I and we would think we would, see it as, like, fate and you know? But I was really afraid of everything else, like, you know, people's judgment and what we could risk. And, and I tried for the rest of my pregnancy to to reassure myself on that because there is a lawyer here in Belgium who specialize in that, but no one ever answered. Like, I I wanted to have a clear answer. I like black and white. And I wanted someone to tell me like, okay, maybe if you do one ultrasound, then if something happens, you will be you you will be safe. But obviously that that doesn't happen and this is where I it it was towards the end of my pregnancy that I realized that there would be no clear answer and that I just had to, like, focus on it was after a call with the with Yolanda where she said, what do you want to focus your energy on? Do you want to focus your energy on this possible scenario or like the beautiful birth that you're that you're you're setting up for? And at that point, I realized, okay, I can't control this and whatever happens happens. But then and then the third trimester, I started fearing that my baby was breech, which was like, I knew that with a breech baby, I would still, still give birth at home because a breech VBAC is even worse than a, like, a normal VBAC. That it it would be a definite c section. That's what the midwife, told me. And I started feeling, like, the the bumps that I I I was feeling were the same as with my first daughter who was breeched. I was feeling, like, little kicks down my belly. And I had a dream that I had a boy who was breeched and that I could like see him through my belly. It was so weird. And at that point, my husband told me I was really really late already in the pregnancy. I was like thirty weeks or thirty yeah. Thirty two weeks. And my husband said, oh, I need a paper for work to
Speaker 4
have the paternity leave. It's
Speaker 5
like, you're saying that and it needs to be ready in within a week. So I went to see the midwife that, that I I saw for my first daughter. And and I know that she's open and she had heard about my project and she had messaged me, saying like if you need anything, if you if you want to book an appointment, come. But I knew that she was gonna try to to give me her fears. So I I initially I wasn't planning to go but then I thought well I need this paper so I'm going. And it's crazy that that experience was was crazy because I didn't want the doppler. I didn't want to hear I didn't need to hear my baby's heartbeat. I really didn't need it. And and I told my husband before we entered like, I I don't want this. And this midwife is very gentle like really not pushy at all, but it's this white coat effect even when you're sure of what you're you want to do, even with someone who's not pushy. So she she asked me if she if if I wanted her to palpate my belly and I was like yeah that's something that I I don't mind. And then she asked me at the end like do you want the info? And I said well my baby is breech right? And she said yeah I I think so. And then she said do you want to hear the hearts? And I don't know why I said yes. I was like so we we heard the heart. I was like, okay. And then when I when we got out, I was like, what was this? It's so crazy. So crazy the effect that it has. And so from that moment, I was, yeah, I didn't know what to do. I was like, okay, if my baby's breech, is that like a normal position that my baby wants to be in? Or is there something wrong with my body that my baby cannot turn or be in another position? I was really in between the ideas that there was nothing to do, that this would just be normal and the idea that maybe there was something to do. Yeah. And that was that was hard. But then at around thirty six weeks, I had this complete, like, breakdown. I I was like, there's not enough time and and I'm too scared and I don't know what to do. And then I booked a call with, previous, regulated midwife. Her name is, Martina Garner. It's a confessions of a midwife on Instagram. And I booked a call with her because every book that I found on breach was talking about what to do to reverse breach, but nothing was was talking about the physiology, of it. The only book that I found was a book by Ina Megeskin and it was so hands on that I was like, oh, it's a spiritual midwifery. The part on breach, I was like, initially, I I gave it to my birth keeper and and then she said, no. I'm not interested in that. Thank you.
Speaker 4
And I was like, yeah. Thank you for saying this.
Speaker 5
Early in my pregnancy, I already knew who would be at the birth. My husband said that he would be there. And, and I have a friend who I I knew we were totally aligned on this. It was amazing to have her her support. And so after this call with the with this, former midwife who is who will who turned like bird keeper, she really showed me lots of videos of breach and like the the physiology of it and how babies come out. And it was amazing because it looks very different from a, head down, a birth. I I showed it to my I I showed it to my husband, like, the week before baby was born. And he's like, it looks like a frozen chicken is coming.
Speaker 4
That's right.
Speaker 5
So that clip was like because she said, why aren't you afraid of, of uterine rupture? Like, you could completely put that fear away, which is good, but now you have this fear of breach. And she said, the only thing you have to do is do what you did with uterine rupture. You apply that to breach. And after after that call, it was like all my fears melted away. I I I even thought that maybe I was I would be afraid if I didn't have a breach birth. And so so yeah. The the end of the pregnancy was good. I just let go all of this and we were just enjoying time together with with my husband who was there. My daughter, a few days before my, like, due date, not a due date, but the the date that I calculated, I started having surges surges which were different. We were at my mom's and I start started thinking like, oh, this is this is different from from the the ones that I've had I've been having for the past few weeks. And so we we went home and it didn't stop and it just became more and more. We put up the pool. We we like we put up a few different things that that were not ready yet in the in the bird's face which was the the living room. And, and then we went to bed. And the whole night I had like surges on and on. I didn't calculate or count anything. It's just every time I had a surge I would go like on in in child's pose and and breathe through it and then try to sleep again. So I I didn't sleep well and I had the same with my my first daughter. Before going to the hospital I had a full night of a of surgery like this, and then it stopped for the day. So I had this expectation that it would stop and that I would have, like, a day's break because there were still things that I wanted to do. Stupid things like put, twinkling lights in the birth poodle, you know, very important things. And then, awake. I I I stayed in bed really late because I wanted to be in the dark. And, but it kept coming and coming and coming, and then I had to to accept that
Speaker 4
I wouldn't be putting those lights in
Speaker 5
the pool and that I wouldn't do all those little details that were unimportant. And, there was a friend of my daughter who was there the whole day, so they were playing in the pool while I was just in the in the living room. Like, I was it's already in between worlds. It it wasn't too painful. I I just had to breathe through the the contractions. My birth keeper already came, just to see how I was doing and I said, I'm still fine. You can go home. There's no point having you here like too early and just waiting. And then, by the end of the afternoon, my daughter's friend was gone and it started to to become more real. We started timing just to have an idea and it was coming like closer and closer and closer. I started crying. I was I yeah. Like for no reason, obviously there was a reason but I was like just releasing and
Speaker 4
I was crying. I was like, this is happening. Our baby's coming. And cry, cry, cry.
Speaker 5
And then I initially, I didn't wanna get in the pool too early because I didn't want it to stop things, but I felt that it was already, getting, intense. So we went in the pool, the three of us, my husband, my my daughter and I, and my daughter was full of energy. She was jumping from the
Speaker 3
side of the pool and she's trying
Speaker 4
to talk meet talk to me during contractions at Pomona. I was like
Speaker 3
How old did she get this point?
Speaker 5
She was, three and a half. Yeah. But I I had briefed her. I I I I told her, like, you you you can give me water during contractions and just, like, you know and then at one point, yeah, I I I
Speaker 4
told her, like, shut up. And then when the contraction was done, I'm sorry, but
Speaker 5
okay when you see that I'm breathing, I'm doing this, you don't talk to me. Okay?
Speaker 4
Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 5
And then she started like giving me water with the straw and telling me you're doing it mommy, you're so strong. Like she was she was really good and then she got bored and she I I actually I don't remember what she did for the rest of the birth. Like she was there, but I can't tell you what she was doing. I was so in the zone in my own thing that I don't know what she was doing. And around like two hours later, I I already felt that it was really intense. So I told my husband to to call our birth keeper and she came. And it was, yeah, around seven thirty in the evening. And from that point, I felt that, like, the whole birth was transitioned. It was just I kept repeating that
Speaker 4
I couldn't do it and that it
Speaker 5
was too hard and that I was, and then it was too painful. And like, it was like a mantra that I was repeating, like, over and over, even though I never felt any fear. I never, like, I always knew that I was okay and that it was okay, but I just kept saying it over and over. And I went between the pool, the toilet where it was too intense, the dilation station, it was too intense. So I didn't like to stay there. So I would go back to the pool. I tried to lay down in the couch to realize why women don't want to be on their backs. It was nightmare to be on my back. And then a few hours later on around nine, my I was in the toilet and my birth keeper said, okay have you tried putting your fingers just like like just out of curiosity, like just to and I said, I'm afraid that I will be disappointed but then on the other hand I have no idea what it's supposed to feel like. So I put my fingers and I felt a little bow, little something and I was completely already out
Speaker 4
of it. Not because we we we
Speaker 5
were sure that he was a boy. I don't know why we were sure I had dreams and stuff. So I said maybe it's one of his testicles. What the hell was I thinking?
Speaker 3
My waters stage. You have no idea. Yes.
Speaker 4
You have no idea. Feeling weird. Yeah. So I said, oh, maybe it's because my waters hadn't even broken. It was it was my my my waters my my immune excite.
Speaker 5
But it was encouraging because it was there. I even asked my husband. I was like, can you feel how how far it is and and what it feels like? And he said, oh, it feels like it's quite close. We were still like, yeah, between the the the toilet and the pool. And then at around ten o'clock, I I I I just wanted a break. I I remember that some woman feel this this, phase where they they can sleep and you know the contractions stop and I was like, when is this coming? This is what I want, I need this, I need it to stop. So my husband said, okay. Let's go to our bed and just be there together. Our birth keeper was with our daughter. She read all the books of of
Speaker 4
that we have in our house.
Speaker 5
While my daughter was in the pool, my daughter used the pool more than me and then at that point in the, on the bed I told my husband like, I if I was in the, in the hospital right now I would be taking the epidural for sure. There is absolutely no doubt and maybe I would even sign for a c section. Like I'm I am so done. This is too painful. Out. Like I yeah. I can't do this. And then he was like, he he really walked me through like, do you really wanna like go take the car go in the car and go to the hospital and you know what will happen to you? You did no, no prenatal care with them. They're gonna c section you. Like, is this what you want?
Speaker 4
I was like, no. It's not. It's too painful.
Speaker 5
And then I got what I wanted. I got twenty minutes of respite, like contractions completely stopped. It stopped and we both slept for twenty minutes. And, and after that I tried going back to the pool, but it was cold. My husband said, okay. Because our daughter was still up. It was late. So he went to put her to bed. And then he said that he would go to bed as well because it might still be hours and that it would it would be good if one of them was, had energy. So he went to bed and then my birth keeper said, you're you're in the pool right now, but the pool is cold and it's just nothing is happening. I was just there because it was comfortable. Like, you know, because it was kind of slowing things down, but nothing was happening and I felt that I I I should get out. So she Okay. Let let's get you out. And and we went to the toilet. I still had my comb. You know that some women use a comb for, like a the the the thing that use and I I I read that it it could help for contractions. So I I I hung to that thing for the whole birth. I don't know
Speaker 4
if it helped at all, but and
Speaker 5
I was there in the toilet and at one and yeah. At one point, I told them just before my husband went to bed, I don't remember this. I was just wearing my, my robe, and I said, it's never gonna happen. And my husband the whole time, he was funny, and he was always like they always believed that it it would be fine. And and he said, do you think that your baby or baby is gonna stay in you forever? And I was like, yeah.
Speaker 4
And then I looked at him and I said, because you still believe that this is gonna happen? They were like, yes.
Speaker 5
And then on the toilet, I was like, my birth keeper was massaging my back and apparently I was telling her, still I don't remember this, all the things that should, that should be happening. If this happens, we need
Speaker 4
to do that. And then if if this happen, like but
Speaker 5
I I wasn't really in my brain because I don't remember. And then I I felt this this first push,
Speaker 4
and I
Speaker 5
was like, oh, this is there. But I and and I told her I want to be on all on all fours, but I didn't want to be on the on the cold floor of the toilet. So we went in the living room. I just I just had the time between two contractions to go on all fours and then my waters broke like and then like an explosion. That was so amazing. So I told her, go and wake him up, but he he never slept. Within thirty minutes, my my baby was out. I I it was so amazing to feel like my it's I I I remember a friend telling me that it was like puking from from your yoni, and it really felt like that. It was so uncontrollable, and it wasn't painful anymore. Like, I would, like, be like, scream and then, and, and at at first they told me, we see something. We see something coming, but we still thought that the baby was was peach. And then they said, we see hair. So it's either a head or it's a boy with hairy testicles already.
Speaker 4
So obviously, it was it was head.
Speaker 5
Came out, I I really felt the the ring of fire. I was like, it burns. It burns. I felt like I tore, but I didn't. And then, after her head was born, the the next contraction she she got out. My I was on all four on the couch. My husband caught her. She had the cord, wrapped twice around the neck. He just untangled her like completely naturally. My birth keeper said like like he had done that his entire life. I turned he I I was still like out there. He gave her to me, between my legs and I checked. I and I
Speaker 3
was like, it's a girl.
Speaker 4
And he didn't even even think to check and we were like, oh, we are
Speaker 5
we already knew that we were gonna call our girl Penelope. So we just looked at each other and was like, hello Penelope. You're there. She cried instantly and I was I I cried as well.
Speaker 4
I I couldn't believe that it was happening.
Speaker 5
I was so happy. Then I started, shaking a little bit which I knew could happen. I was in front of the fire. They gave me something warm to eat. We just cuddled cuddled in the blanket, and we wanted to wait for the placenta to to be out to wake up my other daughter. We wanted to wake her up so she could, meet her her sister. But then the placenta wouldn't come out, so I tried leaning over a ball. I and my my daughter my my my second daughter, my baby, didn't, want to breastfeed for, like, twenty minutes. She cried, cried, cried. She only calmed down when she when she she was in my husband's arms, then she calmed down. And and she she breastfed, but like really a little bit. And I didn't have any contractions, but I felt fine. There was no bleeding. I felt great. So after two hours, which was, you you know, like for regulated midwives, this is like the hard stuff. But I I was confident and I tried I tried to pull, I took my tincture, like, I I tried what I knew, but nothing happened. So we told my birthkeeper, okay. Just go to bed. Go back home. We'll we'll deal deal with this on our own. And we just went to bed, all of us, and we wanted to do a Lotus birth, so I was still connected to my baby while my placenta was still in me. So we went to bed at like, so my daughter was born at two, two in the morning and we went to bed at five. And, and then we woke up at seven, and it was I I was trying to go to the toilet to push and to pull, and it was too complicated with the cord, which was short and, like, my my husband holding her. And we were not that attached to the lotus birth. Like, we wanted we had everything in case we wanted to do it, but if we didn't, it was fine. So we decided to burn the cord at that point. Just, the
Speaker 3
Because Lucinta is still inside you. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 5
Yeah. So we did that. And, before going to bed, I sent a message to that midwife that I had a call with because she told me that after that call, I could call her if anything happened. And just before going to bed, I I messaged her like, I tried everything I know I know about getting this placenta out. I'm not particularly stressed, but I know as well that there's no reason that it should stay there.
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's urgent. Yeah.
Speaker 5
Like, I I and I want it I want it out. So but when when I wake I woke up again, she said it's fine. Don't worry. Like, you know, try what you know, but don't don't stress and don't go to the hospital if there's no reason, which I wasn't planning on doing. And then at around noon, so that was like eleven hours and twenty minutes after our daughter was born, I wanted to take a shower and I just thought this thing is gonna get out. And I went to the toilet and I pushed and then I started peeing and I and then this is where I realized actually that my bladder was full and it was my my full bladder that was, and then I I realized that during the whole birth, I only peed twice. Like, I can only remember peeing twice. And then, yeah, once I peed proper all the pleasant I got out, I had a bowl. We we decided to pee.
Speaker 3
You didn't pee postpartum?
Speaker 5
Nope. No. Crazy. And yeah. But I didn't really think about it. It's like and it's burned. So I I you know? But yeah. Definitely, if I had peed earlier, I know that the placenta it was definitely detached. It was just hanging there.
Speaker 3
What's funny about, the placenta is it seems like pretty much every story I've ever heard, including my own, once the mother is like, get out. Like, once she's at and that could happen at thirty minutes. That could happen at eleven hours. But when the mother really is like, I'm done
Speaker 4
Mhmm.
Speaker 5
You
Speaker 3
know, on some deep level, that's often, you know, when it happens. But, yeah, that makes sense. And and, you know, this is an interesting the bladder is always an interesting one that when we don't have, you know, like, really experienced midwives with us because a a good midwife is gonna think about your bladder a lot. Right? That's like one of the things I'm thinking about the most out of birth. Yeah. But it's so easy to not think about it when you're the birthing mother herself, and there's obviously so much going on and you're only half back in your body and it's just also, you know, you know how it is. It's just so wild for for your own psyche postpartum. And so I find a lot of stories about bladders not being released either in the birth or postpartum because it is kinda one of those funny things that it would be so nice if someone just had, like, mentioned it.
Speaker 5
Yep. Yeah. Definitely. I I knew about it during birth because my friend's birth that I attended, the one with the midwife, couldn't pee. And so the midwife actually put, I don't know how yeah. Candidor. And so that was something that I knew, and I remember the the podcast episodes about, your friend who Mhmm. Ended up, yeah, having the whole crazy story with that. So I but but yeah. I I then after that, I didn't really think about it anymore. Yeah. And then The
Speaker 3
heater on the toilet?
Speaker 5
Yes. And I'm so happy that it's ours. And, and, yeah, I felt it felt so great. I went in the shower and then we just started or yeah. The rest of the story started. My my yeah. My when my my first daughter, came because I said that we we still woke her up in the night even though the placenta wasn't out. And she was like crying half happy, half, you know, it was so scared. But, it was it was so beautiful. So beautiful. And, yeah. And then the first forty days, I was high.
Speaker 4
I was really high.
Speaker 5
It was amazing. We had hired, a innate, tradition practitioner. So I got, like, almost daily massages. We had a freezer full of amazing dishes. My husband did everything. I I was just like a queen, in the couch, just, yeah, just skin to skin with my baby the whole time. At the end, I really wanted to get up and I really wanted to clean the kitchen. So, like, the end of the forty days, I it it was long, but, but it was such a sacred a sacred time. Yeah.
Speaker 4
So so beautiful.
Speaker 3
Wow. So the baby wasn't breeched?
Speaker 5
And baby wasn't breeched. No. Baby wasn't breeched. Funny. I was almost disappointed.
Speaker 3
I know. Right? Well, you get all hyped up for it. Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 5
I was like, I'm gonna have a breeched Vybeg.
Speaker 3
And how old is this baby now?
Speaker 5
She's seven and a half months old.
Speaker 3
And how how has this feedback outside the system, birth changed you?
Speaker 5
Wow. It's amazing. I had lots of expectations on how this birth would change me. And I was a bit afraid that, you know, those wouldn't come come to be true because it took me two years after my first daughter to get my energy back to, you know, realize what I wanted to do to I I felt like depressed for so long. And now it's like this fire that's inside me has been like ignited with fuel. It's, it's amazing. I I'm I'm just so much more confident in in my mothering and it's it brought us together together as a couple. My husband is now the biggest advocate for for free birth for, it's he's just, yeah. He's amazing. We also discovered elimination communication with the with our daughter, which has been like also like the biggest trial of intuition of intuition that you can have. It's just, now she's a little bit on the strike, so it was it was a bit disappointing. But for the first six months, we caught, like, ninety five percent of her pee's. She didn't poo in a in a diaper for, yeah, for six months. It's just it's incredible incredible how wise our babies are. And, yeah, I know this birth has completely completely changed me. It's amazing.
Speaker 3
Love it. Yeah. You know, your story is so so important because, obviously, so many women have primary c sections, and there's just horrific stories everywhere you turn. And so women are at this crossroads where most of them will go back into the system that cut them open to begin with, and they will feel optionless. Right? Because the system won't give them any options. Or the options will be like, we can try for a vaginal birth or, you know, lots of doctors in LA who will only do a VBAC if, the mom's on an epidural. There's, like, rules. You know? Yeah. But those can feel like options. And, you know, and then there's a small amount of women who just go no to all of that. And they are the brave women. They're the women who are, you know, doing some really, really deep work to step that far out of what is acceptable in society and step that deep into our primal nature. Right? And the gift that you give yourself, your body, your family, you know, it just, how could it not color the rest of your life?
Speaker 5
Yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Epic. Especially attending a birth where there was a loss, you know, that that rightfully so is gonna throw anyone for, oof, you know, for a loop.
Speaker 5
Yeah. Yeah. It
Speaker 3
just sounds like like, I mean, I guess for all of us, but there were so many opportunities in your story to to not stay steadfast and not stay clear, and you did. You You know? And you reaped the benefits of it because
Speaker 4
you did.
Speaker 5
Yeah. There there there were parts of my story where where I was like, am I selfish? Am I just doing this for myself? And is it dangerous to my baby? Like, is it just something that I want, you know, a create because this is what the outside world makes you think. That you're crazy. Like, why wouldn't you want the safety of the hospital and of the everything that they can give to you?
Speaker 3
Yeah. It was real safe for you last time.
Speaker 5
Yeah. Exactly. And this is why also I didn't I didn't mention my my plan to to many people. Like, most people, I just kept them in the dark. My my sister-in-law is a regulated midwife, here in France. And, and she knew she knew what I was gonna what what I what I was gonna do, and she respected me, so she never asked. And I really I really like that. And my mother-in-law at the end of the pregnancy, she's like she knew as well, but she's like, so is there gonna be a midwife? I was like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't want people to project their fears onto me because I was gonna do it anyway, and I was already dealing with my own fears. Sure. And, and and and this is what I tell most women. I'm like, for my first birth, like, birthing in the birth center was already alternative to most people around me, and I tried to convince them. And then I I I it back it really backfired. And then for this one, I was like, I'm not gonna convince anyone because my my mother-in-law actually, after that, she said, well, that's all and good, but you were just lucky. Mhmm. Of course. So you're not gonna convince people, like, you know, the ones who think that it's It's
Speaker 3
like saying every time you don't choke on your food, you're just lucky.
Speaker 5
Yeah.
Speaker 3
You know, like a normal physiological event, right, is to chew your food and swallow it successfully, not choke. So every time you do that, it's like you're just lucky that you didn't choke and die because occasionally someone chokes and dies. Yeah. It's just so it's so backwards and so disconnected. And, you know, on the selfish tip, when you see mother baby as one, which obviously people in mainstream don't, but when when you understand mother baby as one, to be selfish is to be for your baby. Like, if you can't separate them, then to do what is right for you and to put yourself first is also to put your baby first. Right? Like, because you can't I see. Can't parse it out. And you know?
Speaker 5
Yeah. Because I see so many so many women, like, thinking that they're that it's selfish to birth at home. So they go to the hospital, and then they end up with a postpartum depression, which is actually just trauma from what they and and then they can't take care of their baby.
Speaker 4
And I mean
Speaker 3
And they yeah. They don't understand.
Speaker 5
Yeah. It's just all all related. Yeah. Yeah. I know.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much.
Speaker 5
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2
And that's it for today, my sisters. Sisters. Check out everything we do, including one on one and group coaching. Learn about our private membership, in person retreats, and more on free birth society dot com. Our online courses are on free birth society courses dot com, including our flagship course, the complete guide to free birth. Don't miss the radical birth keeper school if you're ready to become the authentic midwife that women are searching for. Together we rise, and the revolution starts inside each of us. I'll leave you with our Freebird Society theme song, Wild Woman by Aruba Red.
Speaker 6
I honor you for the wisdom you held, the ancient traditions court will be honored. Eons of survival withstanding the eradication of our power by design. I will not allow the separation of our young to be forced upon me. My sisters will no longer birth in captivity. The picket line redefined from burning our wild women to paralyzing us and drugging our babes. Strapped down in a clinical white bed, drying up the milk from our breasts, keep your needles. My family will never again be doomed to chase those dragons all your poison. We reject your fear. We choose love. Everything with intention, death, ascension. I will fly and bring her back from the star.
