Author of 'Unassisted Childbirth' Laura Kaplan Shanley

Season #1 May 12, 2017

After birthing five children unassisted, Laura Shanley wrote an inspiring book on how she did it. We get in to her personal story, from having child protective services take away her first born for five days, to an unexpected footling breech delivery, to birthing completely alone as a personal challenge - Laura really has done it all. We talk about loss, birth politics, and painless birth. Her book has inspired many to claim their birthing power and say no to routine care.

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Episode Transcript

00;00;03;08 - 00;00;36;27
Unknown
Welcome to the Free Birth Society podcast, a supportive space for people who are learning and exploring and celebrating their autonomous choices in childbirth together while unpack truths, share personal stories, and claim our ability to birth freely and intuitively. Here's your host, Emily Saldana.

00;00;37;00 - 00;01;01;28
Unknown
On this episode, we have an interview with author and free professor Laura Shanley. After birthing all five of her children in her home with no medical assistance. She went on to write the book on unassisted childbirth. We get into her personal story from having Child Protective Services take away her firstborn for five days to an unexpected fulling breech delivery, to birthing completely alone as a personal challenge.

00;01;02;00 - 00;01;22;13
Unknown
Laura really has done it all. We talk about loss, birth, politics and painless birth. Her book has inspired many to claim their birthing power and say no to routine care.

00;01;22;16 - 00;01;47;07
Unknown
I want to hear from you. If you have a question, comment, story to share, or an episode idea. Find me on Free Birth society.com and send me a message. Also, reviews on iTunes are awesome. It helps spread the podcast to more listeners. Let's build and connect this community.

00;01;47;09 - 00;02;21;07
Unknown
So you know, the first half of your book that's that's really focused on the information heavy part. It was really interesting for me as a birth keeper to read because I noticed more than any birth book I've ever read. It triggered so much secondary trauma that I have of every experience that, you know, you are bringing up every intervention and, really illuminating the truth behind the intentions of these interventions.

00;02;21;09 - 00;02;51;28
Unknown
I mean, I was pretty blown away. I was crying and really being called to reprocess a lot of stuff that I have seen. And I was I was grateful for that because as a birth worker, I'm only recently starting to come to terms with how much abuse I have really witnessed. Which is, something that I don't think dualist talk or moms talking about, right?

00;02;52;01 - 00;03;15;01
Unknown
Years ago, I met with a group of women for about a year. We met once a month, and it was primarily do let is. And, and then there were a couple of us in there that were having an assisted birth, but it just amazed me every month. It was just sort of this. People were pouring out their hearts and saying, okay, you know, I went to another birth and this is what they did.

00;03;15;01 - 00;03;38;26
Unknown
You know, this is and most of these women are working in hospitals because the midwives around here weren't really or the people that were hiring midwives weren't really looking for. I do la they felt like the midwife was sort of providing that service. And so these were doulas who were working in hospitals, and it was just so hard for them to, to witness all the interventions that were happening.

00;03;38;26 - 00;03;56;24
Unknown
And, and I even looked into being a doula at one point, and I felt like if, if I would be called, if I would be, if I would need to go to hospitals in order to work, I just don't think I could do it. I just think it would be very hard for me to sit there and watch a woman being interfered with continually.

00;03;56;29 - 00;04;21;16
Unknown
Yeah. And and even a step beyond being interfered with, but actually being bullied and coerced and tried to and, you know, stuff forced upon her. You know, as you know, it can get pretty bad. Right. So I went to a birth in a hospital. You did it live on the bed. I've only been to two births in my life.

00;04;21;16 - 00;04;49;20
Unknown
Other than my own. And one was my daughter. And she gave birth, like in a birth center with a midwife. And they pretty much left her alone. And then the other one was in a hospital, last year. And she was bound and determined to do it naturally. And eventually the, you know, the nurses are coming in, you know, sweetie, it really is better for you and your baby if you have the epidural, you know, and it really is, you'll be able to relax.

00;04;49;20 - 00;05;07;13
Unknown
And then, you know, she had the epidural and then, you know, can I get in the position I want? No, I'm sorry, sweetie, because now your legs can't support you. And so you're going to have to be on your back and so yeah, it was still, you know, a miracle. Like witnessing a baby being born. It was it was still exciting and all.

00;05;07;13 - 00;05;29;24
Unknown
But of course, I wish that they said the truth, which is, sweetie, you would be so much easier for us to manage on that on this busy floor if you were numb and in, in immobile. And so we are programed to believe that you need to be saved and that birth is suffering. And so please let us pray for you.

00;05;30;01 - 00;06;03;00
Unknown
You know what? If they say, what if they use that light, right? I mean, that's how I hear it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Was that a family member or a friend? No, it was a friend. It was a woman that was sort of a, You know, I knew her somewhat. And and this was her daughter. And I had actually met them and Abraham Hicks, meet up in the Abraham Hicks meetup group, and, she read my book and, but just didn't really feel confident about doing it unassisted and just felt like she wanted me there.

00;06;03;02 - 00;06;22;21
Unknown
And so I said I would do it. And so it was, you know, I mean, in the end, she didn't have a C-section. So, you know, yeah, she didn't have that. The bar. Yeah. That's the bar that we're at. Yeah, absolutely. So so let's back up a little bit. Obviously I read your, your book and absolutely loved it.

00;06;22;21 - 00;06;50;10
Unknown
And, it's, it's, you know, in the free birth community, it's definitely one of the core, you know, pillars of inspiration and information and, but I was wondering, you know, even before we get into why you wrote the book, you, you, you touched on why you chose free birth initially. But I wondered if you could speak to that a little bit of, you know, way, way back when, you and your partner, you know, decide to opt out.

00;06;50;10 - 00;07;21;17
Unknown
Can you talk about how you really originally made made a pretty radical decision? Well, for one, I was, as I wrote in the book, I was just never really a fan of doctors. My father was a doctor, and I had been surrounded by doctors growing up. My my mother did medical research. My sister was a labor and delivery nurse, and there was just something about it that I never found doctors to be a comfort to me.

00;07;21;19 - 00;07;40;19
Unknown
You know, periodically I would get strep throat, so I'd go in for penicillin shots and, of course, vaccines. I just found it all very traumatic, and I never really was sick. I mean, other than getting strep throat, I, I wasn't the type of person that like, oh, I was really in pain. And then a doctor made me feel better.

00;07;40;26 - 00;07;58;11
Unknown
For me, a doctor always kind of made me feel worse, you know, with the shots and, and I feel like even with the strep throat, I think it would have gone away on its own. But because my kids had sore throats over the years, I never took them in to a doctor. They never had a penicillin shot, and it went away, you know?

00;07;58;17 - 00;08;24;07
Unknown
So, I always sort of had and I had had some traumatic experiences with the pediatrician. And so I feel like, I was, just doctors were just not a comfort to me, and I and I always felt, although, yes, I do believe that there doctors can do some good. And I believe in especially in emergency medicine, you know, it's wonderful.

00;08;24;09 - 00;08;52;13
Unknown
So but I always was like, there was a certain arrogance that I saw in doctors that always bothered me. I always was sort of one to question authority. And I just really didn't like feeling like they were the ones who were knowledgeable. And I was the idiot, you know? But so although I did go occasionally, I think, during my adolescence, maybe, you know, ObGyn just for birth control, that kind of thing.

00;08;52;13 - 00;09;18;24
Unknown
But, so, but I think what really got me thinking about not having a is when I really started getting into spirituality and discovered that there really is something beyond the physical, that there is a larger consciousness. And when I got it started to get a sense of that, it was like seeing someone in a white coat.

00;09;18;27 - 00;09;41;29
Unknown
It was like they were. So it was almost like, you know, I love my dad, but I remember going to see him I had because I, I was estranged from my parents for years. And when I finally did go see him and at his office, and he was wearing a white coat and it was almost like a Halloween costume, like the stethoscope scope, the white, the white coat.

00;09;42;02 - 00;10;24;17
Unknown
It was just like, no, there's something that we can tap into within ourselves that is so much greater than this, that is so much more knowledgeable than this. And and that knowledge that I was starting to become aware of, you know, the knowledge that doctors have, I think, just pales in comparison. I mean, I had really started to get a sense of my true power, and I had started to have things happen to me that were showing me the power of my thoughts and my feelings, and that was just so powerful to me that I felt like, to go into someone and have them say, okay, now I'm the authority and you're going to

00;10;24;17 - 00;10;52;21
Unknown
listen to me. I just thought, no, that doesn't feel right at all. And, so I think it was, you know, we we had been studying, decreed child birth without fear, which made total sense to me. I really liked how gallantly decreed explained the fight flight response. And I just thought, yes, this absolutely makes sense. This shouldn't be the most painful, horrible ordeal a woman ever goes through.

00;10;52;24 - 00;11;29;14
Unknown
It makes much more sense that this has been designed beautifully, but somehow things are getting messed up and I don't think it's because of evolution that we're walking upright when we shouldn't, or that pelvis has narrowed. I don't think it's this series of accidents. I think that there is a larger consciousness that has designed our bodies beautifully, and if we can understand how to relax and trust that consciousness, the same consciousness that is growing the egg and the sperm into a human being, you know, I mean, I'm so amazed by that consciousness.

00;11;29;14 - 00;11;59;08
Unknown
And and I feel like, why wouldn't that being know how to complete the process? So, when we started, when I got pregnant and, we were originally actually thinking about having a midwife and then we really started to think about how we are going to have to teach that midwife everything that we are learning now about how the mind affects the body, you know, and we knew that probably midwives were already leaning in this direction.

00;11;59;11 - 00;12;19;05
Unknown
But is a midwife going to say, you know what, you have the knowledge within you. What do you want to do right now? What are you feeling like? And there are some midwives that do that, but ultimately the midwife has to choose. Do I answer to the state? Do I answer to the woman? No. Or even do I answer to the state?

00;12;19;05 - 00;12;39;12
Unknown
Do I answer to myself because she may be getting those same promptings that the woman is getting? Like, you know what? Everything's fine. So what if your water has been broken for more than 12 hours or whatever, you know? So, but so we just felt like, yeah, we're going to have to teach the midwife about what we're learning.

00;12;39;12 - 00;13;00;22
Unknown
Why not just do it ourselves? And, so it is really our belief in the power of our own minds. And we felt like, if I can envision the kind of birth that I want, I can create that. So we just decided not to look for a midwife. And I went in for a pregnancy test, and, that was it.

00;13;00;22 - 00;13;24;09
Unknown
I never went back with any of my and and previous to this decision, what had been yours and your partner is exposure to birth. I mean, did you know anybody who had had normal physiological birth? Did you have a positive? We knew I what I knew was basically, you know, my mother had talked to me from an early age about birth.

00;13;24;09 - 00;13;42;12
Unknown
She had explained it to me and I just the thing that stood out in my mind was the academy. It was, you know, she said. And then they make a little hut. And I was like, oh my God. Yeah. And what I saw as a child, and I remember she was trying to speak about it in a calm way, but I was just horrified.

00;13;42;12 - 00;14;06;07
Unknown
And I remember thinking, I'm just not going to have children. And I really was not one to fantasize about having children. Growing up, I thought about a career. I thought of myself as, you know, a liberated woman. And, I just didn't see. I really didn't think much about motherhood at all. And then I remember reading Childbirth Without Fear.

00;14;06;09 - 00;14;35;09
Unknown
And I remember the maternal feelings just surfacing, like suddenly they were there. And I think the fear had just blocked those feelings. And so as soon as I was able to eliminate a little bit of that fear, there were those feelings like, oh my God, I want to have a baby. And, you know, I really didn't think about this until, you know, the the night that I met my husband and he gave me a copy of Childbirth Without Fear, like he was reading this book.

00;14;35;12 - 00;14;57;07
Unknown
So cool. Interested? He was interested in birth trauma. And so he had come across this book and he was like, you know, birth doesn't have to be traumatic. And, he felt that birth trauma sort of sets you up. You know, you get this idea in your head that life is difficult and traumatic. And so it sort of sets the tone for future experiences.

00;14;57;09 - 00;15;31;23
Unknown
So if you can have a trauma free birth, that you're not going to have all the anxiety and the problems that so many of us have that, you know, so so let's figure out then how how can we not have a traumatic birth. Yeah. One of the things you pointed out in the in the beginning, half of the book was making that connection between babies who are born on drugs, you know, i.e. epidural morphine, fentanyl, you know, whatever it is that, that connection between that and drug addiction later in life and, that really blew me away because it's so obvious.

00;15;31;23 - 00;15;59;16
Unknown
But it's something that. Right, you know, doesn't really get talked about because epidurals are painted as this totally get out of pain free card and totally timeless, and it doesn't affect anything. You know, but the reality is that imprinting that you discuss of a baby receiving the implicit, you know, memory, the, the, the message that when when we as a team get stressed out, we turn to narcotics, you know, and we're going to numb.

00;15;59;16 - 00;16;30;26
Unknown
We're going to literally numb the pain, literally. Right. And then and then we're surprised that we have this culture of drug addiction and pharmaceutical, you know, addiction and numbing the pain. You know, it's just a a fascinating correlation that that needs to get more conversation. Right. So so you're pregnant, you decide to go unassisted. It doesn't sound like you had the most support from your from your family or community, but you guys did it anyway.

00;16;30;26 - 00;16;48;29
Unknown
And right. Will you talk to me a little bit about about about your birth. So I'd love to hear, you know, an overview of them as I remember it, it was the first one was the two of you, and then the second one was, unexpected breech.

00;16;49;02 - 00;17;10;27
Unknown
Right. Yes. So the first one, was a face first, which. And I didn't even really think about that. But when I had told someone about my first birth and I said I felt John, I felt his face at my perineum and somebody said, oh, he was a face presentation. And I thought, oh, yeah, I guess I hadn't really thought about that.

00;17;10;27 - 00;17;44;04
Unknown
Yeah. You know, and even at the time I wasn't thinking, oh, I shouldn't be feeling a face, you know, it just didn't. I mean, I had read spiritual midwifery, I had read childbirth about fear, but I just wasn't thinking babies are technically not supposed to be born face first, but, But, you know, I had I went into labor with him about three in the afternoon, and, I just sort of went about my life and we had a few friends that wanted to be there.

00;17;44;04 - 00;18;10;08
Unknown
We had a filmmaker who had been interviewing us, and, he worked at the university, and he wanted to be there. So we called him. And then another friend of ours was staying with us and, male. And so he, I think he was sleeping outside in his truck. And. Yeah, this was 19. Yeah. I was just going to say hippies, right?

00;18;10;10 - 00;18;35;08
Unknown
Yeah. We were this is 1978. Yeah. So, and so and then my, my former boyfriend and his new boyfriend, nice had was also there. So it was you and all men, right? It was me. And what is it, five? Man. That's amazing. Let's say the filmmaker. My boyfriend is our friend. Yeah. And my husband. Yeah.

00;18;35;08 - 00;19;03;20
Unknown
So me and five men. How funny. And, But. And, you know, those were the people that wanted to be there, so we just had everybody come over. It was probably around midnight. But, you know, when everybody got there, I think, and we all just were kind of hanging out. We everybody was smoking pot, and I decided I was in the bathroom.

00;19;03;23 - 00;19;29;28
Unknown
I was sitting on the toilet, and, everybody's kind of in there with me. And I decide that because that's the most comfortable place for me to be sure. And so I decide, okay, I'm going to take one hit a pot. Because I hadn't been smoking, I, I had smoked during my pregnancy somewhat. And I decided I would take one hit during my labor, and I took one hit.

00;19;29;28 - 00;19;52;09
Unknown
And as I breathed it out, he just started coming out. Wow. So do you feel like it helped? Yeah, I do, you know, and I never did it again in any of my other births. But I do feel like, you know, that's how I felt at the time. And it's a natural substance, and I'm, you know, I'm pro marijuana, so.

00;19;52;09 - 00;20;09;14
Unknown
And I mean, also, like, give me a break to anyone who judges that because the first thing they offer you at the hospital is morphine. You know, it's like, don't do anything. And then when you show up, we're going to literally give you hardcore narcotic, right? You know? Right. Absolutely. And you know, we I see wine a lot.

00;20;09;14 - 00;20;30;03
Unknown
It at home births as well. And you know, especially towards the end of the labor I mean it's it's like anything that's going to help. Just help. Right. Drop down and let it happen is going to be great. Right. So I, you know, when I breathe it out and I just felt and I think my water broke while I was on the toilet.

00;20;30;05 - 00;20;50;14
Unknown
And then it was like right after that and I then I reached down after I breathed it out and I felt his face and I had I remember a friend telling me, don't give birth on the toilet because, you know, she thought, okay, the baby could fall in the toilet, which is which. It can't have happened. But so that was my motivation for getting off of the toilet.

00;20;50;14 - 00;21;14;20
Unknown
And so I walked over to the bed. But I didn't tell anybody that the baby was coming. And so the filmmaker backed up and turned off the camera to let me by and know, so so then I got on to the bed and I was on my hands and knees. I was about to turn over and I heard a voice, an inner voice say very strongly, don't turn over.

00;21;14;22 - 00;21;45;10
Unknown
And then, like a second later, John just came flying out and and a true, I think fetus ejection reflex that Michelle or don't talks about. You know, I'd say my body gave maybe 3 or 4 semi involuntary pushes and then, when, maybe when I was on the toilet and then, as soon as I got to the bed, then he just flew out and my husband reached out and caught him in mid-air.

00;21;45;13 - 00;22;14;00
Unknown
And I just heard him say, it's a boy. And because we had thought it was a girl, so we had been calling him Elizabeth all day. I would say stuff that's funny. I bet he still would respond subconsciously to that. Right? Right. And so, you know, and then about maybe 45 minutes later, so I got up, you know, and, and delivered the placenta, I think, into the toilet.

00;22;14;00 - 00;22;40;11
Unknown
And then they just scooped it up, took it out to the woods, and, oh, I love the involvement of the, of the men because obviously, you know, society really socializes men to be very grossed out by this stuff and to be very timid around birth. And, I loved reading that line in your book that one of the men and you never name them, you just call them the men, just like, one of one of the men, you know, scoops up my my after birth.

00;22;40;11 - 00;23;02;09
Unknown
It took it outside and I just I could totally picture this. I can totally picture your birth just with this group of, you know, totally engaged men who were supporting you. And so curious about it and, probably really experiencing it as this very mammalian, you know, event like, like a National Geographic, you know, show, you know, that that wasn't gross at all.

00;23;02;09 - 00;23;20;03
Unknown
It's just so amazing and interesting and new and, right. Yeah, I, I'm, I think it probably was, you know, it had a real impact on all of. How could it not? Of course. Right. And I remember I spoke at a first conference once and a man came up to me and he said, you had five men at your birth.

00;23;20;03 - 00;23;51;05
Unknown
That's perverted. What's perverted? You know, get all, but, you know, none of them were there because they had any, you know, it wasn't like a sexual thing cause at all, you know? So, so anyhow. Yeah. So that was my first birth, and and it was just, you know, such a great experience. And so and then and then we, we get into the just horrible story of the Child Protective Services.

00;23;51;08 - 00;24;15;15
Unknown
Right. And I did want to touch on that because you know, so many women that free birth intersect with CPS, you know, whether whether it's, you know, a very common story that I'm hearing is they birth at home and then they get nervous that they have a retained placenta. And so they go to the hospital for help. Or another common one is they just want to go to the hospital and have baby checked out.

00;24;15;18 - 00;24;34;25
Unknown
Right. And then before they know it, you know, they're admitted and CPS is is questioning. Right. So and I think it is it's kind of I see it in people that are they're sort of on the fence like they want an unassisted birth, but they're not sure if they, you know, they they're sort of they're sort of not.

00;24;34;25 - 00;24;58;19
Unknown
And they want it. The baby's born. Everything went well maybe. And you know, but they they do. They want to, you know, maybe I better get the baby checked out just to make sure. Well, in the air. And this is so unfortunate, but the error that they're making is they are thinking the hospital is their ally. Right. And obviously, ideally, we'd all be living in a world where we could birth however we want and use the medical model to assist us.

00;24;58;19 - 00;25;28;02
Unknown
Yeah. You know, but that's not the deal. And I think, you know, people, unassisted birth is legal, but a lot of people don't know that. So and a lot of people who are in social services don't know that. And, you know, what I do hear is when people are hassled by social services, it's it's like 99.9% of the time, like it blows over, like everything is okay.

00;25;28;04 - 00;25;47;09
Unknown
But it's still difficult to go through. It's, you know, it's I mean yeah. Yes. Oh my gosh. I mean, yeah, I've talked to quite a few women now who have CPS show up at their door or, you know, I mean, in gosh, in your experience, it sounded like your baby was actually removed from you for, what, a week or more?

00;25;47;11 - 00;26;13;01
Unknown
Yeah. For five days, and in my, in my case, I had my mother had called social services during my pregnancy and. Oh, thanks, mom. She wanted she wanted to, you know, I know her motivation was good. She wasn't really trying to report me. She wanted a nurse to come over and kind of help me, you know?

00;26;13;01 - 00;26;33;18
Unknown
That's what she wanted. She wanted a nurse. Somebody that I could call if I needed to. Or somebody that could counsel me. And, you know, I'm a doctor's daughter. I don't know, somebody shows up at my door and says, I'm a visiting nurse, and I'm here to help. Like, I know nothing about social services. You know, that whole world is just so foreign to me.

00;26;33;18 - 00;26;58;03
Unknown
So when this woman comes over and says, you know, and then and she's with a social worker, we're just here, like, if you need anything, they they didn't come in and say, like, you can't do this or this is illegal, of course, because it wasn't. But they didn't really try to discourage me from doing it. They kind of came in as we are your friends, and we're here to help you and tell us about yourself.

00;26;58;08 - 00;27;20;21
Unknown
And so they kind of wanted us to sort of open up to them and which we did. And we we thought, you know, we actually we told them all about why we were doing this. And, you know, we were happy to like, share it with these people that seemed interested. And after the baby was born, we I called them, I said, we had the baby.

00;27;20;21 - 00;27;52;21
Unknown
Come on over. So, so the nurse came over with the social worker, and what? I didn't know, you know, I didn't know about breastfeeding. David had my husband had actually wanted me to go to Little League when I was pregnant. But everybody that I was telling that I was going to have this unassisted birth, and I don't even know if we were calling it an assisted birth because I wasn't familiar, you know, I didn't know the term until my publisher years later titled my book on assisted childbirth.

00;27;52;21 - 00;28;11;05
Unknown
And I was like, oh, okay, I guess that's what I did. But, you know, but I did tell people I was just going to do it ourselves. And, and people were horrified. So I became very isolated during my pregnancy, I bet. And I, I actually didn't tell my parents I was pregnant until I was seven months pregnant.

00;28;11;05 - 00;28;30;21
Unknown
So they saw me when I was six months pregnant and, and said, you know, it's too bad you came all this way because I had lost. I had always been heavy and then I, I lost weight before I got pregnant. And so. And why did why did you withhold that information? Why didn't I tell them? I figured they would be horrified.

00;28;30;22 - 00;28;51;05
Unknown
You know, I'm a 20 year old college student. I've met this guy. He's ten years older than I am. You know, he's we've decided we're going to have a baby without a doctor midwife there. And I'm like, I was going to hold off on telling you. Yeah, as long as possible. And so I, you know, I saw them at six months and they, they didn't know I was pregnant.

00;28;51;05 - 00;29;08;18
Unknown
And then at seven months, I was supposed to go to my sister's wedding and I didn't go. And my mom figured it out, you know, I, I told my sister or maybe my sister, you know, I said I can't come, so I put on weight, I don't feel good about myself. And then suddenly she's like, oh my God, you're pregnant, you know?

00;29;08;20 - 00;29;29;29
Unknown
And then so my mom found out at my sister's wedding, oh my gosh, they're so, so anyhow, you know, they had called, so we, I didn't know about breastfeeding. I, I've never seen anyone breastfeeding. And I didn't realize that John wasn't getting a good grip on me. He just just, like sucking on the tip of my nipple.

00;29;30;01 - 00;29;50;08
Unknown
And I didn't know. And so the visiting nurse and my mother I think had brought up a scale and the visiting nurse and the social worker, they said and maybe my mother, I don't know, they said they felt like she was losing too much weight. Well, I had read that babies lose weight, you know, in the first few days.

00;29;50;08 - 00;30;08;13
Unknown
And so I said, no, he's fine. And so the visiting nurse and social worker said, we want you to take the baby to a doctor. And we said, no. And so they came back with three police and they took them away. And so they took them to the hospital and they said, and he's now in the property, he's now the property of Boulder County Social Service.

00;30;08;13 - 00;30;35;18
Unknown
And you know it. That situation does bring up an interesting point, because if your baby was truly dehydrated or and not breastfeeding well, and you didn't didn't have the tools, support, education, you know, whatever to identify that, not that I think it's ever appropriate to take the child away, but, you know, of course there needs to be a better system in place, like a lactation consultant could have been paired to you.

00;30;35;21 - 00;30;58;10
Unknown
Right? Plenty of things should have happened. Never, ever, to cause the trauma of separation. But it does bring up, you know, that interesting kind of devil's advocate of of, you know, it is ultimately their job to make sure that the baby is safe and well. And in this particular situation, the baby did, you know did it sounds like need need to be doing better.

00;30;58;13 - 00;31;17;09
Unknown
Right. What do you think of that? I mean, I think, yeah, they at that point I, I needed help and yes, it would have been great if somebody would have said, okay, you're not, you know, you're nursing and, and the nurse simply did she wrote, she wrote down nursing and properly. And I said to her later, why didn't you tell me?

00;31;17;09 - 00;31;33;16
Unknown
And she said, I didn't think you would listen. Right. And I don't I don't know, you know, it's like I look at, okay, I had my own reasons for creating that whole event. It's sort of got me to take a stand. And I basically had to decide, you know, okay, how am I going to live my life?

00;31;33;16 - 00;31;49;15
Unknown
I mean, when they now have my baby and I better start believing in myself or I'm not going to, you know, I'm going to lose my child. And and that's how I felt. I wasn't like, okay, now I'm going to do what they say. You know, they have my child and now I'm going to do what they say.

00;31;49;15 - 00;32;13;25
Unknown
For me, it was I better start believing in myself. But I also felt like I didn't really want to look at the medical profession as my enemy. Which I see some people doing and I, I don't like. Yes, I am critical of the medical profession in my book, but I really don't go after them in a way that I've seen some people do.

00;32;13;27 - 00;32;34;22
Unknown
And I think it's I try to be understanding, like most of these people are well-meaning. I just think they're misguided and so totally, you know, I don't I don't want I'm not out to like, reform the medical community. You know, I, I feel like I'm out to encourage people to remove themselves from it as much as possible, because to me, birth is not a medical event.

00;32;34;22 - 00;32;53;14
Unknown
Right? And use it when there's something actually wrong. Because in every other situation, why do you go to the hospital? Because something is wrong, right? But not when something is. Well, you don't just like go there to have them check out your heart when there's nothing going on. Right? You right? That is weird. That's a waste of time.

00;32;53;17 - 00;33;18;11
Unknown
But when something's up, we're so grateful that that model exists for kind of the limited, the limited scope of what they can really do. Right? Right. And so I think, you know, after that I felt like, oh, here, you know, I they took him out, they put him in the hospital. They said he was dehydrated. They gave him fluids and they a nurse worked with me for like half an hour.

00;33;18;11 - 00;33;35;12
Unknown
I don't. And she's like, he's not getting a good grip on your nipple. And here's how it should be. And suddenly John latched on and that was it. And I never had a problem again. And it's like it was so simple. But I think it was just one of these things that it was this big drama that had to play out.

00;33;35;12 - 00;33;55;05
Unknown
I, I wrote in my book about a dream I had after they took John the night that they took him, and that I dreamt that I was, that my father was there, or maybe I was in the hospital, I don't know. And they, my father said, these are my rules, and you are going to live by them now.

00;33;55;05 - 00;34;12;18
Unknown
Sign this. And I signed it. Yeah. And I thought, okay, there was a part of me that was really afraid to take that step and say, I'm going to. I'm going to give birth the way I want to give birth. And I think, you know, the thing is that when people sort of give in and they say, you know what?

00;34;12;18 - 00;34;30;06
Unknown
Well, my mother's too scared. My friends are all afraid, you know? And so I think I'm just going to go ahead and have the kind of birth that they want. And I'm going to go ahead this time, and I'm going to do it in the hospital. It's, the birth is only the first challenge because. And you're going to deal with everything.

00;34;30;08 - 00;34;54;05
Unknown
Yeah. It's like sooner or later, you know, they're going to be people that don't think you should do long term breastfeeding exactly where it is. Or vaccine or circumcise. Right. Where does the line at what point are you going to start making decisions about your parenting? Right. And absolutely. And I feel like I that's why I felt like I put myself in a position where and I was ready to go to the hospital and steal him.

00;34;54;05 - 00;35;31;06
Unknown
I know I brought that to the hospital. I took this little gym bag and I'm like, oh, like that. If I if it looks like I'm not going to get him back because they were talking about putting him in a foster home, I'm like, I'm stealing him and we're going on the lam. Well. And that so really speaks to, you know, the, the desperation of, of a mother who, you know, is forced to be separated from their child and that, you know, obviously, objectively, that would get you in so much more trouble and probably like submit to the fact that you're not like a suitable parent and then you lose your kids real but right

00;35;31;07 - 00;36;03;21
Unknown
moment. All that matters is that primal mama bear. I will do anything to get my youngest back. And, you know, we see this, you know, like with incarcerated women, you know, a very common story of why incarcerated, pregnant or women, pregnant women are incarcerated is they do a last ditch effort to steal money for diapers or to steal how to, you know, retreat to the streets of their, prostituting, you know, some sort of final desperate attempt so that they can scrape some money together before the baby comes.

00;36;03;21 - 00;36;23;01
Unknown
And, you know, it gives it gives, I think, more context to hear you say that because, you know, you're not a woman of the street, you know, and that, you know, to hear that you were bringing a gym bag to literally steal your baby bag. I mean, it's not funny. It's actually incredible. You know what I mean? We might as well laugh about it, man.

00;36;23;02 - 00;36;43;12
Unknown
Yeah, exactly. It was a long time ago. Yeah. And thankfully, you didn't have to do that. And thankfully, you you received your child back quite quickly, right? Yeah. Right. It's wild. So we did get him back after five days. You know, they gave him back. They said they said they wanted to continue to counsel us, which we were like fine, great, whatever.

00;36;43;12 - 00;37;04;29
Unknown
Yeah, whatever. And then but eventually they started getting very nosy and but we still had to go to court when he was five months old. And so, but actually, you know, they looked they went so overboard when they went to court to try to show how insane we are. They, they brought in a psychiatrist that said we were insane.

00;37;05;03 - 00;37;23;02
Unknown
Wow. You know, and we had never met the psychiatrist and the whole thing, they went overboard that the judge threw it out of court and I was never bothered again. You know, that's what I was going to ask you, because then you went on to have, you know, many more unassisted births. And did CPS ever knock on your door again?

00;37;23;03 - 00;37;44;06
Unknown
Never, never. And we and you know, and as, as you know, we we lost a baby. So even when we lost the baby, he had a congenital heart defect and died within a few hours of his birth. Even then, social services never came over, and I sort them out. I mean, not social services. I did contact the coroner.

00;37;44;08 - 00;38;03;11
Unknown
Because, because someone had said to me, oh, are they going to put you in jail now? And I was like, oh my God, or am I going to be blamed for this death? And I, I contacted the coroner and he said this baby just never developed the body to survive. And it wasn't your fault. He wouldn't have lived regardless of where he would have been born.

00;38;03;14 - 00;38;33;05
Unknown
And you know, I put all that in my book and I you know, you look on the internet and people are slamming me, you know, it's like here, oh, you want a reason to discount everything that Laura Shanley says? Here it is. She lost a baby, you know? And so I guess, like, babies sometimes die. Yeah. And like you said, you then, you know, and this happens that you then went on to know a woman who had a similar situation, who birth in the hospital and, and, you know, that child passed as well.

00;38;33;05 - 00;38;51;13
Unknown
But, you know, you can bet your but she didn't get any crap for, for the way that she did it. Now that was my you know. Yeah. My aunt my father's sister and it actually wasn't that far before I had my baby, but she had a baby with with a congenital heart defect in the hospital. And that baby ended up dying.

00;38;51;15 - 00;39;16;23
Unknown
And, of course, there was never anything sad. You know, with me, people feel it's fierce, you know? Yeah. And it is, it's so interesting because it really it really speaks to this very confused stance that people have where, you know, like, let's say Republicans who want to have, you know, power, you know, autonomy and get the government out of your, your business and all this stuff.

00;39;16;23 - 00;39;45;06
Unknown
But they also feel like they have the right to speak on the behalf of your fetus. And, and, you know, to make these decisions for, for some woman they've never met. But it's this interesting, very confused, blurry line of, the, you know, there's this like, presentation that, that we should get to do what we want and have autonomy, which Republicans fundamentally, you know, believe and that the government should stay out of their, you know, personal life choices.

00;39;45;08 - 00;40;18;21
Unknown
And then also and especially, you know, very religious people. But then if you make a what I would call your your birth and many free births, women that I'm talking to make deeply spiritual choices to really surrender and sit with what God has to offer, you know, in their birth and what your child's journey is. And if you do that outside the medical model, you know you're considered a kook when really right, you're doing the exact thing that they're actually fighting for, right?

00;40;18;22 - 00;40;47;01
Unknown
It's just so interesting. Yeah. I mean, it brings up so many issues. I think, and what I don't really identify as Republican or Democrat, I mean, I'm sort of more independent, but I do think it's interesting that when home birth legislation comes up, it's usually supported by Republicans and that reproductive rights, you have to compartmentalize reproductive rights up until the point of birth.

00;40;47;04 - 00;41;04;18
Unknown
But there are many people who will say, yes, you should have the right to have an abortion. No, you should not have the right to have an an assisted birth, you know, so it's it's, it's so weird. It can be frustrating. Totally. But it's very frustrating, I think. Yeah, it is. It's my body. And, you know, this is how I.

00;41;04;18 - 00;41;30;22
Unknown
I'm choosing to have my children. And I believe I have every right to give birth. And is there one way of birth that's going to ensure that a baby never dies? No, of course not. It just isn't. Yeah. I mean, yeah, absolutely. And you know, what would happen to this patriarchal system if we actually trusted women as adult mothers, you know, two, right, to make intuitive decisions.

00;41;30;22 - 00;41;51;24
Unknown
You know, something that I'm always going back to is, you know, one of my biggest, biggest triggers with the obstetrical model and and the midwifery model many times, one of my biggest issues is that anybody thinks that they can act like they care more about the wellness and health and survival of their of somebody else's child, you know.

00;41;51;24 - 00;42;29;12
Unknown
Yeah. And just how totally degrading and and disrespectful that is to the mother and completely wrong. Right. Because I have I have personally never met a woman who doesn't care a thousand times more about their birth, their body, their baby's, you know, health, etc. and it's, it's it's really it's a very polarizing, you know, concept that's incredibly disempowering to act like, like you like we already mentioned, you know, to act like they know better and, you know, but until they until you go home and then once you go home, you have to deal with the baby.

00;42;29;12 - 00;42;54;06
Unknown
You're totally not you have not been empowered to, you know, take care of. Right? Yeah. It's really a trip. So so let's keep moving on through your birth. So so then we we have we come to I believe was the, was the foot falling out of your body. Right. So, you know, I kind of feel like I kind of feel like I have this sort of you know, been there, done that.

00;42;54;07 - 00;43;22;12
Unknown
So I had these other of these experiences like, okay, phase presentation, but Lane bridge, you know, baby being taken away, baby dying like, so that the whole thing people could say like, well, what about this? I'm like, been there, done that. You know, like, I don't know, but I, I did not have textbook birth. So, but yeah, my second one I had, I was planning on giving birth on my hands and knees because that's how John was born.

00;43;22;12 - 00;43;41;25
Unknown
And I was like, that worked so well. And then I had a dream. And I, as I say in my book, I don't believe every dream is prophetic or, you know, sometimes dreams are symbolic. But every so often I have a dream that I feel like is presenting me with a valid message. Well, they all present us with messages, but it's just how we interpret them, you know?

00;43;41;25 - 00;44;04;18
Unknown
So this one I felt was was literal. I was watching a woman giving birth. She was catching the baby herself, and she was standing up over a little plastic baby bathtub. And I heard a voice in the dream say, tell her to remember not to do too much. And I thought, oh, I understand what what the voice is saying.

00;44;04;21 - 00;44;23;24
Unknown
It's, you know, it's a matter of sort of just getting out of the way and not doing anything, which is pretty much what I did with John. But, so, I decided then, okay, I'm going to just get out my little plastic baby bathtub, and I'm going to stand over it like I saw the woman.

00;44;23;24 - 00;44;45;29
Unknown
And so I did have a friend who, I think it was one of the men who was at my first birth. He had had a dream that he saw the baby inside me standing right side up, but I didn't necessarily see that as, oh, then I'm going to have a quote like bridge baby. But, so I didn't know it was going to be first.

00;44;45;29 - 00;45;05;20
Unknown
I just knew that I wanted to be standing and that I was going to do nothing to interfere. So I went into labor with him one morning about 730, started feeling contractions. We actually had sex and labor with him, and I hadn't read anything about, you know, that the benefits of having sex in labor at that time.

00;45;05;20 - 00;45;24;08
Unknown
But, and then I got up and I was, walking across the room, I thought, well, I'll take a shower. And I was walking across the room and my water broke, and after my water broke, I didn't feel any pain at all. I just it was like the only way I even knew I was having contractions was to put my hand up inside myself.

00;45;24;08 - 00;45;47;00
Unknown
I could feel my teammates interacting. Wow. So because with John, I felt some pain. And I also felt some pain when John came out. Because face presentation is not the easiest. You know? Absolutely. And yeah, I've only seen a couple of them, but they're, they're I mean, I guess if it's your only point of reference that, you know, who knows if you just.

00;45;47;00 - 00;46;07;03
Unknown
Yeah, you're just over there thinking it's normal versus if you had a team of people with worried looks and talking about the free face presentation and it might need to be a C-section, I mean, gosh, you probably would have felt a lot more pain. So with that second birth, you know, did you, when you were saying that, that you didn't feel the contractions?

00;46;07;03 - 00;46;30;07
Unknown
I mean, other than going up inside? You could. Yeah. Couldn't you tell externally that they were happening or not at all? As far as, like, what did my belly look like? It was like, did you really not feel them? Oh, I really didn't. After my water broke, I was not I was not feeling that. That's amazing. So.

00;46;30;10 - 00;46;50;22
Unknown
Or I was not feeling pain. Now I maybe I seem to remember that I just wasn't I don't know, they weren't painful. So if they, if I felt any contractions, I, I would assume I just wasn't feeling because I don't know how you would. I wasn't feeling pleasurable contractions. Right and out the way like like with an orgasm.

00;46;50;22 - 00;47;08;24
Unknown
I wasn't feeling much pressure. So yeah, I do remember I just didn't feel anything. And with the breech, you get a little bit, it's a little easier without having that head at the bottom. Right? Right. There's no head pressing on there. So yeah, I just remember feeling up inside and like, oh yeah, my muscles are contracting.

00;47;08;24 - 00;47;32;26
Unknown
So I'm just kind of going about my life. And, but I took out because with my first birth, he was born right after my water broke. And so I figured, okay, my water has just broken. I assume the baby's coming soon. So I'm standing there and that's when a foot comes out. And so, And so David looked at me.

00;47;32;26 - 00;47;49;21
Unknown
He's like, you know, what do you want to do? Like, do you want to go to the hospital? And I just said, no, you know, I, I mean, I the thought of going to the hospital was so terrifying to me. And I just felt like now I'm going to I was a I'm a big believer in beliefs, suggestions, affirmations.

00;47;49;21 - 00;48;17;14
Unknown
So we just said affirmations. You know that I'm relaxed. I trust my body, I love myself, I believe in myself, I believe I have inner help and and because I'm not in any pain, it's like it's kind of easy to just stand there with this foot hanging out. Sure. You know, if you don't panic. And he was wiggling his toes and, you know, flexing his foot and I just remember my two year old John saying, you know, what's what's that?

00;48;17;14 - 00;48;58;14
Unknown
Yeah, that's the truth. And I said, yeah, I said, that's the baby. And then then his foot just kept getting lower and lower, and then at some point his other foot popped out. And then something inside me just said the time was right and I gave one push pull. And I've heard people say, I remember reading a story about a woman who had a falling breech, and she was telling the one that she was telling the midwife, I feel like I need to pull, and the midwife is saying, no, do not pull on the baby well, and the baby ended up dying in that case, and I in my case, I felt like pulling and

00;48;58;14 - 00;49;25;12
Unknown
it was that strong pull. It was just a kind of one push pull and whatever pressure I was exerting, it was very gentle. But this is what my inner self was telling me to do. Sure. And I just sort of pulled him out and, and that was two hours after I felt my first contraction. I mean, so, and, you know, I didn't with my first birth, I had some after pains.

00;49;25;19 - 00;49;44;12
Unknown
I didn't happen with the other ones. So, and I just, I was just, like, just so elated. And I kind of, when I wrote about it, you know, I asked David about it, like 12 years later when I was writing in my book. I asked him something about that birth, and he's like, I don't know, I wasn't there.

00;49;44;15 - 00;50;04;01
Unknown
I he said he was in the other room, but it's, it's making me think of, did you see the April the giraffe thing birth? I didn't I still need to see that. Yeah. So what was what I one of the things I loved about it, you know, it was, it was an unassisted birth, you know, -1,000,000 people watching.

00;50;04;04 - 00;50;25;17
Unknown
But you know, they didn't it minus that whole observation piece, you know. You know, nobody touched the giraffe. She was by herself in her, like, pen or whatever, but, yeah, the it was a foot long breech. And so the baby, her, her foot, her leg hung out of her for quite some time, like, an hour or something.

00;50;25;17 - 00;50;45;13
Unknown
A very long time. And it was, it was it just. I totally got that image. When you're explaining the birth of your second because it was this, this foot that kind of would move around and it would just kind of you'd see more and more and more of it. And then eventually the other leg came out and it was, I'm totally picturing the similarities, right?

00;50;45;15 - 00;51;04;05
Unknown
Yeah. That was my birth story. Maybe I should put a picture of her like, well, this is pretty much how I, Exactly. Yeah, you gotta watch it. Yeah, it's, you know, and it's it's, the reason it's cool is because it's just a normal birth. Right? And it's the same thing with with all this birth stories that I love.

00;51;04;05 - 00;51;26;05
Unknown
You know, so far, most unassisted birth stories are pretty simple. You know, they they go on there, they move around a little bit, they get some intuition, and a baby slides out. You know, it's not right. It's not these complicated stories. Right. So let's. So then we're on to your third birth, which is that the one that you did alone again.

00;51;26;05 - 00;51;53;27
Unknown
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then you just, like, walked over somewhere and brought the baby to David. Yeah. Well, he had David and I had gotten into an argument during the birth. Oh my gosh. And so it was like the stupidest argument. And so but you but you had wanted is it true that you had wanted to do it by yourself intentionally as a personal challenge?

00;51;53;29 - 00;52;10;01
Unknown
Yeah. I just kind of thought, you know, and this is how I felt with all my births, as far as not necessarily saying this is how it's going to be like, okay, I'm going to have my children there or I'm not going to have my children there, or I'm going to do it myself, or I'm going to have my husband catch.

00;52;10;04 - 00;52;26;18
Unknown
I just kind of like, you know, what? If if I'm alone, I'll be okay. Of course. And if David's there, that's fine. So. But it had entered my mind that it that I felt like, you know, I think if I'm alone, I'll be fine. And maybe that would be kind of interesting. But I wasn't going to chase David away.

00;52;26;18 - 00;52;48;26
Unknown
And I did have a friend who lived next door, and she was like, you know, if you want me to come over, that's fine. But, you know, I went into that, I went into labor with with Joy and I because my other labors were pretty quick. And especially my second labor had been two hours. So I started feeling contractions with her and and I was like, okay, babies come in.

00;52;48;26 - 00;53;14;18
Unknown
Well, 24 hours later, baby still not coming. And so, now eventually I realized she was posterior. So she she was facing towards my front. You really did get it all back, right? Right. Of course she was. Yeah. So. But, you know, and I'm kind of working with myself mentally, like, why, what the hell is taking so long?

00;53;14;18 - 00;53;41;15
Unknown
And did you experience the the traditional back labor pains or how was the sensations for you? I don't remember back labor. I remember pain, so I did have pain with her. Whereas, you know, willies birth. My second had been so easy. And so I did have some pain with her. Not pain. Like where? Okay, I'm going to the hospital where I cry, I cried.

00;53;41;15 - 00;54;03;05
Unknown
He used to go over and study at the library, on campus. And so that was his normal morning routine. And so he, you know, he got up. I'm still in labor, and I'm not really. I hadn't been talking to him about the labor, really. I mean, I think he knew I was feeling some contractions, but, he got up and he left, and he.

00;54;03;05 - 00;54;23;29
Unknown
And it was like, as soon as he walked out, I was like, yes. Oh, nice. Like, it was a it was a relief to have him leave. So because of the tension. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And you know, brilliant man. Lots of problems. Very thankful he turned me on to this. But, now we're not together anymore, so.

00;54;23;29 - 00;54;48;17
Unknown
Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So, as soon as he left, I. The contractions picked up, and I took a shower, and, But I was crying in the shower, and then I took out my little baby bathtub. And as I wrote in my book, then the phone rang and I answered it, and it was, I was running a donut delivery service that I had started, and I was renting that out of my home.

00;54;48;20 - 00;55;13;00
Unknown
And so it was the lady at the University of Colorado calling to give me my donut order. And I love that you answered the phone. Yeah. And she's like, you know, well, I was like, very dedicated to my business. And I was like, you know, I'm in labor. I can't, you know, I can't take this now. And she's panicking because she's like, who am I going to give this donut order to, you know, and I like, prioritize.

00;55;13;00 - 00;55;38;09
Unknown
What was right. I don't think she realized, you know, she's probably envisioning me at the hospital and, you know, with my epidural or something. And, you know, why can't I just take her orders? You don't. You mean that you panic? You don't think she was envisioning you being alone unassisted, right? Right. Right answer. And so. Right. And so, I mean, it did kind of add some levity to the situation.

00;55;38;09 - 00;55;57;25
Unknown
Like, I'm just like, I can't, you know, I'll call you back later. And so I hung up and my kids were sleeping. So, I just took out the little bathtub, and then Joy started coming out, and I my water hadn't broken. So I looked down and I saw her face looking up at me through the water bag.

00;55;57;25 - 00;56;23;09
Unknown
Wow. So I could just see this film, you know, just looking at her eyes. And I mean, it was like, really just such a spectacular moment. I mean, I really feel like it was sort of the most spectacular moment of my life just because I felt such a connection to her. You know? I remember feeling like we were the only two people in the world, and I remember feeling like, this is the most wonderful gift I've ever received.

00;56;23;09 - 00;56;41;28
Unknown
And I just so we just looked at each other through the water bag, and then it popped and she slid out into my hands, and I just was, you know, I was elated. I so I put her, I just put her down in the baby bath. I mean, in the I had a little bouncy chair and I put her in the bouncy chair.

00;56;41;28 - 00;57;01;23
Unknown
I think I wrapped her up, put her in the bouncy chair, and I think, you know, the placenta came out. I don't know, maybe within 15 minutes or something. I burst that into the bathtub and, and then I went lay down on the couch, and I just started hearing, like, ocean waves and bells, and I just was blissed out.

00;57;01;23 - 00;57;24;26
Unknown
I was so blissed out, and I, you know, I didn't have after pants with her either. And then the boys woke up, and I remember John made me a glass of chocolate milk for shoot. And then, I said, you know, let's go find David because we knew he was over on campus and that he might be having breakfast at, at the cafeteria there.

00;57;24;26 - 00;57;46;11
Unknown
And so I just was, you know, I wasn't in pain. And it had been, I mean, the the birth, the actual birth had been pretty quick, like the labor was long, but it wasn't like I was sore. Anything from, you know, with any of my birth, there was never this pushing. I'm pushing for an hour or whatever, you know, and there's something, you know, obviously, to be said of because you were alone.

00;57;46;14 - 00;58;23;19
Unknown
You had no other energies to contend with, even on a psychic level. You got to be you got to experience, what, 100% presence and companionship with this little girl born where there was nothing else. No eyes on you, no voices. I mean, even just your energetic body didn't have to organize anybody else's energy. And so it doesn't surprise me that you then got to, you know, look down and have this eye contact and feel like you were the only two in the world, because that that is true.

00;58;23;21 - 00;58;58;06
Unknown
You know, undisturbed birth, right? Right. I mean, yeah, to have that connection, I mean, I felt like I later I said, I feel like I touched the eternal. That's how it felt. I touched the eternal. And even if I never have that kind of experience again, which I don't know if I've ever really had that kind of experience, but it's like, okay, once in my life I had that kind of experience of feeling total connection with another human being, and it was just spectacular, you know?

00;58;58;06 - 00;59;30;13
Unknown
So I mean, it forever changed me. Yeah. And even though, you know, all of my births, I think changed me and I and I do remember feeling elated, you know, with my other births, but especially with that one, I think just because and it was such a contrast to, you know, everything that had been going on or and the fighting and the tension and then just like immediate relief and total connection and triumph, feelings of triumph and and so we, you know, then after a little while, I lay down for a little while and then I said, okay, let's get dressed.

00;59;30;13 - 00;59;57;10
Unknown
And we got dressed and I had this little white wicker doll carriage, that my mother in law had given me. And so we put joy in the doll carriage and we. And it was November. It was November 17th. This was 1982. And but the temperature was in the 70s. And, you know, this was in Boulder, Colorado. And we just walked over to the campus and I just felt like I'm floating on air.

00;59;57;12 - 01;00;18;04
Unknown
He had come home, after we left. Somehow we missed him. We walked over there and he had come home and he saw the placenta in the bag. Okay. And so then he went back over to the campus and we were we were having break. We just went ahead and we were having breakfast there with his friends. And then he assumed that's where I.

01;00;18;10 - 01;00;35;18
Unknown
Of course. Yeah. And so, and then he sat down, had breakfast with us. No, nothing. And then coming home looking for your family and just finding a placenta in the bathtub. Right. And it's like, you know, I think somebody asked him at one point where you saw the placenta did occur to you that maybe something had gone wrong or she was in the hospital.

01;00;35;18 - 01;00;56;17
Unknown
He's like, no. Yeah. So I mean, we were so confident that, you know, and I mean, and now I guess, you know, life, 40 years of life, you know, I've certainly had my struggles. So maybe I, in some areas I'm not as confident, but that back then I was like, you know, he was like, of course everything went fine.

01;00;56;20 - 01;01;24;01
Unknown
Absolutely. And I mean, I'm sure that your confidence in your birth experiences, you know, how do I say this? It doesn't. I think that it gets painted a lot that, oh, if you're free birthing, you're just like a fearless, totally confident person in the world. And not necessarily at all. But it is. It is one thing that, you know, you're willing to be courageous in, you know, and it's it's a pillar of your life.

01;01;24;01 - 01;01;52;02
Unknown
And that doesn't mean that there aren't struggles in other areas, but it is, you know, thankfully, it is something that you have in your reference point. You know, that you can say, I did this, I did this, I trusted myself, and I'm sure that influences other aspects of your. Oh, absolutely. I mean, my mother has said to me how surprised she was that I have done this because she said I was always such a timid child and, you know, they would make fun of me, that we'd go gaping, and I would.

01;01;52;09 - 01;02;16;04
Unknown
I walked behind the jeep. I was so scared or we'd go sailing. We had a sailboat with a cabin and I'd be down in the cabin crying and the boat cleaning, you know, and they would go skiing, you know. And my family was always very physical. And I was just always so terrified. And so this was, like, not in keeping with my personality at all, but it just always felt so right to me.

01;02;16;08 - 01;02;41;29
Unknown
And it did give me it gave me a tremendous amount of confidence in myself. Yeah. And it's internal strength versus like, you know, hope a Jeep doesn't tip over, you know. Right. That's a little more external. I mean that's I can see how that's different. And so then and and then, you know, I thought the just the story of your fourth birth and fourth experience was so powerful and so interesting.

01;02;41;29 - 01;03;11;01
Unknown
And, you know, while I'm not this is the story of the baby that you lost. And while I'm not surprised that you've gotten, you know, backlash because the internet is cruel, I really, really resonated with what little you did share of the birth. And and I was wondering if you could speak to that of it. Yeah. Well, you know, I got pregnant with him, and I was using mental birth control.

01;03;11;04 - 01;03;36;15
Unknown
And what does that mean, by the way? I wanted to ask you, does that just mean were you using fertility awareness at all, or were you just. No, no, I was just going. I will not get pregnant. That's right, that's right. Awesome. And I know people who have successfully done that. And, but I think my desire to have babies was so strong that it sort of overrode my desire not to have babies.

01;03;36;16 - 01;04;06;04
Unknown
Well, and so it's the time, right? Yeah. So I got pregnant, with him, and, I was, I, you know, I had a husband that had emotional problems. I was the breadwinner. I was pretty much the breadwinner. For the entire, you know, since my husband, he broke his ankle when John was a couple months old, when my first baby was a couple months old, and he never went back to work.

01;04;06;07 - 01;04;32;29
Unknown
He was sort of a scholar. He read books and he's the one that, you know, got me into all this. But, he taught me a lot, but he never was really able to go out there and, and deal with the world. And, so I was always the breadwinner. And so here I am, you know, I've created this donut delivery service that, you know, is is successful, but I've got three kids.

01;04;32;29 - 01;04;59;12
Unknown
And we also had decided we were going to homeschool, and but I was doing the homeschooling, and it was just very tough. And so when I got pregnant, with my fourth child, I really felt like, okay, I'm allowing this baby to leave. I said, believe suggestions? I'm letting go of the baby. It's okay. Now is not the time to have another baby financially.

01;04;59;12 - 01;05;34;09
Unknown
It's just too, too stressful. I can't, you know, I can't deal with this. And I didn't miscarry. And so I didn't feel comfortable at that time having an abortion, and I was terrified of having an abortion. And so I just figured, okay, I'll make the best of it. And then one night when I think I was around eight months pregnant and I'm not exactly sure, I never really, you know, I was nursing through all my nurse straight for like 11 years, so, I never really knew when I got pregnant with any of my kids other than my first.

01;05;34;09 - 01;05;56;01
Unknown
I knew the night that I got pregnant because as I talk about in my book, I had a very vivid dream about it. And John actually was born on his due date. You know, it's like November 30th. I had the dream and August 21st was his due date and bam, he was no the other ones. I never really knew so, but I felt like I was maybe eight months.

01;05;56;04 - 01;06;13;14
Unknown
But I had a dream at that. I saw a woman giving birth and she caught the baby herself, and someone said she finally let go of the baby. And in the morning I went into labor and he was born. It was a pretty it was a short labor. I took a bath and then I stood up.

01;06;13;14 - 01;06;37;12
Unknown
He wasn't born in the bath water, but my water broke and there was meconium in the water, which had never happened before. And then he came out and he wasn't breathing. And I breathed into him and got him going. And then, but a couple hours later, he died. He had his. Would it look to me like the bones in his chest were they were kind of sticking out a little bit.

01;06;37;12 - 01;07;08;05
Unknown
I've since read that. That actually is not that uncommon that it goes away, on its own, but, so but I don't know, I, I felt like you know, I breathe once I breathed into him, I thought, okay, he's fine. And and did something feel like off to you at all during the pregnancy once you accepted the pregnancy and, or even during the birth, did did it was there ever, no intuitive flag or.

01;07;08;07 - 01;07;43;11
Unknown
No. Now, just that, you know, I was very stressed. Yeah. I felt like this is, you know, I'm now feeling the pressure of taking care of. I'm already taking care of a family of five. And I'm 20. I can't remember where I was 27 years old. Yeah, I think I was 27 years old. And so, so, you know, but I got him dressed, and David, had been gone, I think he came home and, and then I thought John was sleeping.

01;07;43;15 - 01;08;02;17
Unknown
I'm not John. Nicholas was sleeping, and I went to change his diaper, I think. And then David looked at him. He's like, is he dead? He wasn't moving. And he actually had, like, a little bit of a smile on his face. And, the baby did, you know. And I, I kind of, you know, shook him a little bit.

01;08;02;17 - 01;08;28;26
Unknown
And then we realized, okay, these I think he's he's gone. And we called the paramedics and they came out and they tried to revive him, and they took him to the hospital and they couldn't revive him. And, and the the people at the hospital were all very nice to me. And they just said he had, when the autopsy came back, they said he had a congenital heart defect, influenza, pneumonia and sepsis.

01;08;28;28 - 01;08;52;20
Unknown
Oh my gosh. I said, you know, and that's basically probably why I gave birth to him early, sort of, you know, a spontaneous miscarriage. It's just that I was fairly far along and I, and I really to this day, I can't really say how far along I was exactly, but were you, were you transparent with the hospital about your unassisted birth and no prenatal?

01;08;52;20 - 01;09;15;10
Unknown
I never said, yeah, no, I mean, I never I never tried to hide anything and I no one ever I mean, I just was treated so kindly and people were so, you know, we we called the ambulance, the the ambulance people. I mean, I eventually I got bills, you know, from the hospital and from the ambulance company.

01;09;15;10 - 01;09;46;16
Unknown
The ambulance company dropped the charges. The hospital, turned me over to a collection agency. So they weren't quite as understanding. Yeah, but, but the coroner, you know, I, as I said, I had called, and he just, you know, no one, they really felt that that, nothing they didn't feel anything could have been done. So. And actually, they had a police came right after, you know, when, after they came and took him to the hospital.

01;09;46;16 - 01;10;07;07
Unknown
Then police came over. And what's interesting is that I had, I given birth in the bathtub and after they took the baby and then, I cleaned the bathtub. I think this is. Oh, no, it wasn't after they took the baby. It was after I'd given birth. And he was, you know, just lying in the baby chair.

01;10;07;09 - 01;10;27;09
Unknown
I was like, you know what? I'm going to clean out the bathtub. So I think, you know, when police came over and maybe they're expecting this bloody scene, right? I see this pristine bathtub. But, you know, I never I never was hassled, and thank God. And really, I think that if I never would have. I mean, we didn't really know many people in those days.

01;10;27;11 - 01;10;51;07
Unknown
And I think if I never would have written about this, this birth, I don't think anybody would have ever said anything. You know, when I wrote my book, you know, when I've thought about that, I thought I basically I'm giving people a hammer to hit me over the head with, you know. Oh, exactly. And and it took and I was, I was thinking that as I was reading it, I mean, I personally completely resonate with the way you framed it.

01;10;51;07 - 01;11;08;17
Unknown
And, you know, it hasn't happened to me. But, you know, I do feel like I would feel similarly, you know, around the, the spiritual side of it, of how you spoke of it. But but it does take a lot of courage to put that out there with the with the rawness and the honesty that you did.

01;11;08;17 - 01;11;31;04
Unknown
I mean, to acknowledge that you, you know, did pray for for a miscarriage and had a lot of reservations around, you know, having this child and, you know, and and eventually when I, when I wrote about it, I wrote about it initially on the internet and in my book, and then I had, I had said something about, you know, the bones in his chest were malformed.

01;11;31;04 - 01;11;46;19
Unknown
And then when I read more about, like, maybe they really weren't now formed and I had read I had written that he was, you know, I think he was a man thoroughly. And then I felt like, well, you know what? I'm not I really can't say for sure that he was a month early because I really don't know.

01;11;46;25 - 01;12;07;21
Unknown
And so I rewrote the story. And now if you you can read about me on the internet about how I changed my story. And obviously I must have changed my story because I'm hiding something. No, I changed my story because I felt like I really can't say for sure that I was eight months pregnant. I really can't say that the book's your story.

01;12;07;23 - 01;12;40;26
Unknown
You're allowed to read it. Yeah. And so, you know, this brings up a question I was wondering about. I know that that legally, you're like, you like you said, you're allowed to legally have a free birth in your home. But what about an unassisted pregnancy? Is that completely legal in all 50 states? You know, I have read that and, well, in Nebraska, I read years ago that, it is illegal.

01;12;40;26 - 01;13;08;10
Unknown
It's a misdemeanor for a father to catch a baby in a non-emergency situation. It doesn't say anything about the mother. Now, I haven't heard of that lot being enforced. There are now some states that say you. If you want to get a birth certificate, you are required to take the baby. Or maybe even if you don't, you're required to take the baby to, a doctor within the first 24 hours.

01;13;08;13 - 01;13;53;03
Unknown
And as far as prenatal care, I really don't know. Whether I wonder, I gotta look into that. I yeah, I haven't heard that you that there's any sort of a law saying you have to have prenatal care. It's. And and even with the birth, it's, you know, I mean, people talk about, well, you can always say, oops, you know, like, even if they said an assisted birth is illegal, you know, how can anyone, of course, that, of course, if you haven't gotten prenatal care, then they might deduce that, you know, well, you really did want to have this baby unassisted, but, you know, basically, I feel like if you if

01;13;53;03 - 01;14;24;01
Unknown
you can have confidence in yourself and you believe that what you're doing is your right, that you don't have to be afraid of social services, it's like, you know, I went up against social services and I won, and I don't feel like that was an accident. I don't I feel like my intention to I do feel like I created that situation basically because I, I was sort of on the fence and it sort of forced me to take a stand and believe in myself.

01;14;24;03 - 01;14;47;01
Unknown
But I think the same confidence that you have about the birth you need to have regarding, your baby. Yeah. And just saying, you know what? Nobody is going to force me to give birth in a way that I don't want to. They other people are not that powerful, that I am powerful, and I can't create the birth that I want, and I can create the life that I want.

01;14;47;04 - 01;15;06;21
Unknown
And and the authorities are, are not as powerful as some people think. And and I think, you know, that's why I'm still such a believer in the power of our mind. Is that you? You need to envision that you are safe. You need to believe that you are safe.

01;15;06;23 - 01;15;24;11
Unknown
Hey listeners, if you're liking what you're hearing, leave me a review on iTunes. It helps this podcast get seen by more potential listeners. Let's get these stories and this important information out there. Now back to the show.

01;15;24;13 - 01;15;58;24
Unknown
Okay, so then we have your last baby, your final daughter. How did that birth? So, well, that one was also very easy and probably most straightforward. Just started feeling contractions with her, early in the morning, and I had decided not to say anything to David like I was in labor. I just felt like I'm going to hang out here and just relax.

01;15;58;25 - 01;16;24;06
Unknown
And so I just lay in bed, and I said my beliefs, suggestions, and I, I actually sort of fell asleep. And then I woke up, and I. And I felt like I was I told myself, I'm moving out of the way and allowing this to happen. And I just really sort of felt myself psychologically step aside, which I think I did to a degree with all of my births.

01;16;24;06 - 01;16;53;19
Unknown
But, I somehow, I don't know, it just I, I felt myself able to do it. I was just really breathing deeply and just lying there. And I just said, I'm not fighting this in any way. And then I decided to get up and take a bath. And David was up on the couch, reading the paper and, and so he saw me walk across the hall, and I and, he said, you taking a bath?

01;16;53;19 - 01;17;14;08
Unknown
I said, yeah, I think I turned down the bath water. And then I sat down on the toilet and looked between my legs. And there was, there was the water bag. Oh my gosh. And then it popped and I stood up and caught her. And with her she started coming out and I saw the cord was wrapped around her neck, which I'd never had.

01;17;14;10 - 01;17;40;07
Unknown
And I've read that, you know, maybe 25% of the time, the cords around the neck, you know, Gloria Lamé do you know who she is? She has said she's, sort of a midwife. I don't know, maybe she calls herself a traditional birth attendant these days, but she has written a lot of wonderful things. But she has said that it's the smart baby that keeps the cord around their neck because it keeps it out of the way.

01;17;40;09 - 01;17;58;17
Unknown
And so but it's one of those things that people panic. Oh, yeah. Well, there's a lot of there's a lot of lies about it in the right mainstream. And, you know, it wasn't tied around her neck, but I did notice it was around her neck. And I lifted it off, and then she just slid into my hands and the bathwater was still running.

01;17;58;17 - 01;18;25;02
Unknown
And I said, David, will you come here? And I got a surprise for me. Oh, yeah. And he, he saw, he saw me sitting there with this newborn. And, you know, he was like his jaw just dropped then and I said, turn off the bathwater. Yeah. And that was it. And I mean, it really was kind of just like going to the bathroom as far as, like, you know, there was none of this pushing or I mean, it was like, wow, easy as it gets.

01;18;25;06 - 01;18;52;09
Unknown
And some friends of mine had scheduled a baby shower for me for that day because I thought I was going to be do like maybe around the middle of April and this was April 5th. And so, you know, basically we just cut the cord, with, we didn't tie the cord with this one for some reason. I don't really remember our rationale, but, you know, and I have read that some midwives believe that tying the cord off can trap bacteria in there.

01;18;52;15 - 01;19;21;26
Unknown
I don't know, I've tie I've tied it off. And then this time we didn't. And either way, we never had any problems with him. Vocal cord. But, you know, the placenta came out, you know, within 15 minutes or so and, you know, once again into the toilet. And I just, I just nursed her and we got dressed and we went to the baby shower, and so, so funny and I had worked up until Friday night.

01;19;21;26 - 01;19;43;21
Unknown
I was cocktail waitress, and I had worked Friday night, and everybody at the place, you know, knew how I had my babies. And everyone was like, you know, don't have the baby here. I'm like, you know, what could happen? But, so I had worked my shift Friday night, and then she was born Sunday morning. And so it was the other girls at work that, you know, had the baby shower.

01;19;43;21 - 01;20;00;20
Unknown
So I took her to the baby shower, and, you know, they're looking at me. I walk in with the baby and, like, no, that's not your baby. You know, we just saw you, and they had actually wanted to some of the, some of the women had wanted to come to the birth. And I said, you know what?

01;20;00;20 - 01;20;14;09
Unknown
I'm going to see how I feel. Yeah. And when I'm in labor, which is what I tell people, see how you feel and see who is it going to be a comfort to have people there? And to me it's just like, no, I absolutely knew when I went into labor, it's like, no, I don't want I don't even want to tell David.

01;20;14;09 - 01;20;37;27
Unknown
Anyway. And so, well, you also were very committed and, and trained self trained at giving yourself the validation that you needed, you know, and I think that's, you know, so much of why people, think that they need somebody else there to validate their experience and remind them that it's normal and that they can do this.

01;20;37;27 - 01;21;04;23
Unknown
But if you're able and willing to connect to that within yourself, which is the real work, you know, that you, you know, can have that, then the then the script gets, you know, flipped a little bit that actually other people become distracting versus, you know, versus how exactly how I felt. Totally. I absolutely feel, you know, and that's why to call it an assisted birth, it's like I felt like there was something within me that was assisting me.

01;21;04;23 - 01;21;29;00
Unknown
I never felt like it was just me, my ego giving birth. I felt like I was definitely in touch with something much wiser that is within me, that is guiding me the same. The same thing that any animal tunes into. Like, how do these animals know that that's what our that's what your next book needs to be. It'll be called nature assisted birth or God assisted birth or something like that.

01;21;29;00 - 01;21;51;21
Unknown
That's like, yeah, it's you know, it's just the more you feel those that internal guidance. And I think the less you turn to authorities in any area for sure. Absolutely. I am just so absolutely convinced that we have that inner guidance in every area of our life. I, I happen to be very good at tuning into it when I'm giving birth.

01;21;51;23 - 01;22;23;02
Unknown
I wouldn't say that I'm always so great at tuning into it, sure, but, but definitely when I give birth, I feel that guidance. It's there. It's those when I've heard a voice or I've had a dream or I've had an impulse. There's no mistaking it. And I feel so confident that I have that that I, I don't, you know, I just don't look to doctors as it's just you don't need their knowledge.

01;22;23;02 - 01;22;50;03
Unknown
Just. It just pales in comparison. I mean, we have so much more within us, and I and I think we have all these internal resources, you know, dreams, impulses, intuition. Beliefs, suggestions. These are all things that we have at our disposal so that we can create what we want. And so I never felt alone. I always felt that I had help.

01;22;50;04 - 01;23;11;08
Unknown
And, you know, I never set out to, like, okay, I'm going to, you know, originally it was like, okay, David's going to catch the baby and David's going to catch our babies. And he really only witnessed our first birth. You know, he never witnessed another birth. I mean, I basically, you know, I caught all the other babies and that certainly was not how I set it up.

01;23;11;08 - 01;23;44;03
Unknown
I didn't set out to do it that way. It's just that I went along with what felt right at the time, and I trusted those, those impulses. So then what led you to know that you needed to write this book? Well, I've always, loved writing and I pretty much from the time I started having my babies, I felt compelled to tell people, and I was, you know, I, I'm really not into proselytizing.

01;23;44;03 - 01;24;05;26
Unknown
I really don't feel like I have to convince the world or I certainly don't share my story the way that I used to. I it was such my births were such transformative experiences for me, and I felt like I am not unique. I remember talking to a woman once who was a yoga teacher who had had very easy births, and I said, do you tell this to your students?

01;24;05;26 - 01;24;30;02
Unknown
And she said, no, because I feel that all of my yoga training and all of the work that I have done has allowed me to have these easy births. And I don't think that other people that didn't do all these things that I did could have those kinds of births for me. I feel like I did. I didn't do much at all other than kind of psychologically move out of the way.

01;24;30;04 - 01;24;52;19
Unknown
You know, I eliminated external interference and internal interference. That's basically what I did, which is no small thing. That's true. But to me, it was like, if you can grasp the concept of what it means to do nothing, then, you know, so and that's how I felt like, I feel like if I did this, I feel like pretty much anybody can like it.

01;24;52;19 - 01;25;13;29
Unknown
It's so much easier than people realize. But it is a matter of being able to. I'd say one of the biggest challenges is standing up to a society that thinks you are insane. You know that for me, one of the biggest challenges, because if you were going to look to everybody else for your support, this is going to be pretty hard.

01;25;13;29 - 01;25;39;08
Unknown
But if you can say, I don't, I'm not afraid of other people. They don't have power in my life. I believe in myself, I believe I have inner help, and I can do this. Then I believe you can, you know, so, I just because they were such transformative experiences for me, I just felt like I, I remember feeling at one point, I have got to share this with the world.

01;25;39;08 - 01;26;02;14
Unknown
I have got to share this with the world. And so, you know, I used to just tell people I remember being on a bus and the bus drove out where, you know, I had my infant. Oh, where'd you have your baby? You know. Oh, I just did it by myself at home. And she's just like her jaw drops and I walk off the bus, you know, people, I really was isolated for many years because people just thought we are crazy.

01;26;02;14 - 01;26;32;01
Unknown
Yeah. And even my parents, you know, I was estranged from my family for 14 years because my family just felt like you're you're insane. And I think when I finally, I finally decided I wanted to write about it when I was pregnant with Joy, I started writing about it during my pregnancy. So that was my third child, and I finally was able to get a magazine, a spiritual magazine to publish my article.

01;26;32;04 - 01;26;54;00
Unknown
And then one day a catalog came in the mail from I don't know how they got my name, but a catalog came, from a company, Bergin and Garvey, who published birth books, and they published Michelle O'Donnell's book, The Nature of Birth and Breastfeeding. And I started looking at some of the other books that they were publishing to, and that one was by a midwife.

01;26;54;00 - 01;27;11;04
Unknown
And I thought, you know what these people are like leaning in this direction. And so I wrote to them and I said, I sent them my one magazine article, and I said, I'm in the process of writing this book. And it's going to be an expansion of this magazine article. And they wrote back, yes, we're very interested.

01;27;11;04 - 01;27;31;15
Unknown
Send us as much completed material as possible. And they were an academic and primarily an academic press. And, although they had a trade division at that time. And so when I got that letter and actually the letter got the mail and dropped it, my son John found the letter outside on our oh my gosh. And he brought it in.

01;27;31;15 - 01;27;50;29
Unknown
And so I had I didn't have one thing on paper, so I just went in my room and I spent like six months and I sent them a manuscript and they published it. And I was so thrilled, you know, that somebody wanted to publish my book. They weren't asking me for any money, you know, I did. My royalties were incredibly low because it was an academic press.

01;27;50;29 - 01;28;14;06
Unknown
But what it did is it gave me a little bit of credibility. Total and so then, and then they wanted me to do an update in 2012, which I did. But, then finally I but I didn't have a book that was available really to the general public because they no longer had a trade division, and this was a $40, hardback.

01;28;14;08 - 01;28;33;07
Unknown
And so finally, a few years ago, I bought, I had to buy the rights to my book. I bought the paperback rights. Oh my gosh, not sell me the they won't sell me the e-book rights. So I can't do an e-book. They my books still sells. It's in over 600 libraries around the world because they're very good at marketing to libraries.

01;28;33;07 - 01;28;56;00
Unknown
So I'm glad that it's out there. But I bought the paperback rights and I self-published the paperback last year. Oh, and, and I updated it and, but like, if somebody wants to quote from my book, you know, I can't give them permission now. So it's kind of it's kind of strange that I don't own the rights to my book, but is this your your one and done, or do you think there's another book?

01;28;56;00 - 01;29;30;01
Unknown
Well, future I don't know, you know, I mean, I've thought about, writing another book. I just kind of feel when my publisher came back to me in 2012 and they said, can you give us another 15,000 words? And I'm like, you know what? It was hard for me to come up with the initial 50,000 words back in 1994, which is what they wanted, because basically what I'm saying is don't interfere physically or psychologically, and babies pop out like it's to me, really, anyone that be making T-shirts, right?

01;29;30;01 - 01;29;51;07
Unknown
Yeah. It's like it's I had to sort of I what I did was I put a bunch of birth stories in the book because it's like, I can sum up my philosophy pretty easily. And it is I don't think it's this incredibly it's like, do you have to know everything that's happening physiologically in order for you to have sex?

01;29;51;07 - 01;30;09;01
Unknown
And or do you have to know in order to have an orgasm, do you have to know or in order to digest your food or in order to go to sleep, you know, to go to the bathroom, any of these things, do you have to really know? No, you just have to. Not with any natural bodily function. Don't interfere physically or psychologically.

01;30;09;06 - 01;30;38;28
Unknown
Relax and let it happen. And so that's what I mean. But if, if, if we grew up, you know, believing that we needed a team of people in the bathroom every time we needed to have a bowel movement, you know, right, there would be some serious unlearning that needs to be done, which is the which is the part that I think you did such a good job of, you know, of of capturing in the first half of your book before the personal narratives that, you know, you you deliver it in such a simple way.

01;30;38;28 - 01;31;09;28
Unknown
That's very to the point, very well researched. And it's it's very clear that what's happening is an unlearning. And a part of the unlearning is to understand the default obstetrical model. We have to look at that, you know, and it does. It is annoying that it has to be so cerebral. You know, for so many people. Because as you're describing and as I know as well, it's the opposite of that, that we actually have to bring in to birth is to not be in our head.

01;31;09;28 - 01;31;28;26
Unknown
And, yeah, but because we process through our heads and because we're so programed as a culture to not trust this, it's like the the pathway has to go through the brain first for, for not for everybody, but for lots of people. Well, that's why Grantley decreed appeal to me, you know, that's why. Because I was so cerebral in those days.

01;31;28;26 - 01;31;54;28
Unknown
I wasn't spiritual initially. I was an atheist growing up. And so when Grantley decreed, explained, okay, this is what happens when you trigger fight flight. You literally keep blood from flowing to the uterus and babies get stuck and women have tremendous pain. And I'm like, that makes total sense to me. You know, just like your face gets white when you're afraid, you turn white as a ghost because the blood and oxygen is going to your arms and legs so you can fight the danger or run from it.

01;31;54;28 - 01;32;14;22
Unknown
He says. The uterus of a frightened woman in labor is literally white. It doesn't have the fuel it needs, and babies get stuck and women have pain. And so like, just don't do that. Just don't trigger fight flight. And and so that's, you know, so that's what my book is about how to not trigger fight flight. You know, totally.

01;32;14;22 - 01;32;34;10
Unknown
You don't trigger flight flight. Then you can go to sleep and you can go to the bathroom and you can have sex and you can have babies. So yeah. And that's so that's what it is. It's it's about unlearning all of that. And so you know and that's why like I said, I've just felt like, oh I, I know how, how transformative this is.

01;32;34;14 - 01;32;56;27
Unknown
It was for me. And I feel compelled to share it now. I feel like it's kind of been a rude awakening for me in a lot of ways, because when I wrote my book, I thought, oh, and I'm going to go to these Earth conferences and I'm going to meet Ina Mae. And people are just and I was not expecting the the rejection from the midwifery community, that I have experienced.

01;32;56;27 - 01;33;27;14
Unknown
So that was really what shocked me because I thought we're all on the same page. I thought, we are all wanting what's best for women. And it didn't occur to me that. So, you know, you know, you don't see me speaking at conferences really very often. It's a you don't gosh, it's such a good point. I'm glad you brought that up because I, I feel that in the doula community, you know, it's it's interesting because, you know, you and I are both speaking to I mean, you're much more established in this, but we're both speaking to, hey, you don't need anybody else.

01;33;27;17 - 01;33;53;06
Unknown
And if it if that's, you know, I guess it's kind of, from an egotistical standpoint, you know, or a profit standpoint, it is not in their best interest to support the message that their care and their model is not as needed as right at now. That's not to say they're not needed. Obviously. I think they're a wonderful gateway.

01;33;53;09 - 01;34;14;12
Unknown
You know, and, and I think, I mean, the women I've worked with in the past who have what I would call a medicalized midwife, you know, just for them to take their birth out of the hospital was a huge jump and more power to them. You know, that's great wherever they are in the journey. But but I hear that and I'm disappointed to not see you.

01;34;14;12 - 01;34;44;29
Unknown
You know, speaking at conferences as well, because I think the conversation around an assisted childbirth is really the the essence of what is normal physiological birth and we're not having that conversation as a birth community enough. These are so it gets so political and it gets so, you know, it's so confronting. And in even birth advocates, you know, I still find, don't want to discuss death and don't want to discuss, right now, it's all this department from a medical.

01;34;44;29 - 01;35;06;21
Unknown
It can get uncomfortable and but and I think, you know, what I always tell people, too, is like, I never set out. You know, I didn't name my book on assisted childbirth. My message at that time was not necessarily, oh, if you just remove other people, you'll do fine. My message was really about belief. And, you know, it was kind of like, by the way, there was no one else there.

01;35;06;23 - 01;35;30;29
Unknown
But, you know, and that's kind of what my publisher wanted me to run with. But my original message was, if you believe in your own abilities, you can have this wonderful birth. And you know that isn't traumatic. And, and so, so I still believe that, you know, you can have a great birth with a doctor or a midwife, but, you know, but I think it is a challenge because of all the rules and regulations.

01;35;30;29 - 01;35;56;20
Unknown
And you can say, you know, here's my birth plan and I'd like everybody to leave me alone, and then I'll let you know if I need your help. It's like, yeah, right. Well, that's, you know, legally they just can't do that. You know, it's the midwives in in Colorado. I mean, they're legally required to check dilation and heart towns to transfer a woman to the hospital if her if she's not in active labor within 12 hours of her water breaking.

01;35;56;23 - 01;36;17;19
Unknown
So, yeah, you know, but I just try to share my story, and I think. But like you said, people, some people, for some people, just having a baby is, you know, that in itself is a major challenge. And however they get that baby, you know, but then others are like, you know what, I've had C-sections. I don't want that again.

01;36;17;21 - 01;36;34;26
Unknown
And I had a vaginal birth, and I had it in the hospital and I had my epidural, but that I avoided another C-section. It's like, so everybody has to decide for themselves, you know, from where their boss is. Yeah, right. Like I and I, it's not like I have this goal of I'm, you know, I'm going to see if I can do it without anybody's help.

01;36;34;26 - 01;36;55;06
Unknown
And I'm going to prove to like, no, it's just like, to me, it felt like this is the most natural and safest way for me to give birth. And I'm going to go with that. You know, I feel for anybody else to be telling me what to do. I felt that that would make my birth less safe and and, unless it, I have a good experience for me and my babies.

01;36;55;09 - 01;37;15;16
Unknown
Well, and, you know, I mean, I feel the exact same way, but but it's it's always so interesting to me when women come to this without having real exposure to what birth is in, in the hospital or regulated midwifery models, you know, like. Right. The reason I came to this is because I've seen hundreds of births, you know, of women being told what to do.

01;37;15;16 - 01;37;44;20
Unknown
And I've gotten, you know, the, the gift of really getting to see what it's like so that I can choose to opt out with a really right experienced, you know, perspective. But, you know, I'm talking to lots of women who are choosing free birth without that. And it's just it blows my mind and I find it very exciting, you know, that that's you don't necessarily have to have seen, you know, a ton of hospitals to know that you don't you know, it.

01;37;44;23 - 01;38;07;09
Unknown
If you had asked me if at the time that we decided to do this, if we were aware of what was going on in hospitals and we were not well, I was not aware until I started writing my book and I started researching birth. And I remember like, oh my God, this is what they're doing to women. And oh, I was like, you know, I'm not going to the hospital because I don't think I need them.

01;38;07;15 - 01;38;31;04
Unknown
But I had no idea. Yeah. So I started researching how validating. Yeah. Right. Well, we, we, we are at time, so I want to okay, wrap up here, but I've thoroughly enjoyed connecting with you. And it's so, so funded, you know, talk to somebody who has really not only paved this path for yourself, but for a lot of other women, too.

01;38;31;04 - 01;38;49;26
Unknown
And, you know, your book just is such a such a good job of laying it out in a really comprehensive way. Of course, the personal narratives are always so powerful to read, and your own personal story is so interesting. Like you said, you've you've kind of seen it all. Yeah. Right. So yeah. Thank you. It's a really inspiring book.

01;38;49;26 - 01;39;02;26
Unknown
And you're inspiring, woman. And just so grateful to have you on this episode. I'll thank you and good luck with your podcast and all the work you're doing. Yeah. Thank you.

01;39;02;28 - 01;39;13;17
Unknown
That's it for today, everyone. Join us next week for another episode of the Free Birth Podcast. Thanks for joining us. And remember your body, your choice. Lots of love.

Author of 'Unassisted Childbirth' Laura Kaplan Shanley

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